Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

Well I dunno bout you guys but I can't wait for my trip to Cardiff. The last time I was there we got prison shamed and the time before that Mossy spent a few months in hospital and Thom Evans never played rugby again...

I know tournament rugby is quite different but Wales look like a husk of a team.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well I dunno bout you guys but I can't wait for my trip to Cardiff. The last time I was there we got prison shamed and the time before that Mossy spent a few months in hospital and Thom Evans never played rugby again...

I know tournament rugby is quite different but Wales look like a husk of a team.

I'm definitely not looking forward to it - there are too many raw wounds from our trips down there of late for me to get my hopes up! 2 years ago was particularly frustrating as we were well in control for 60 minutes then just lost the plot in the last 20.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well I dunno bout you guys but I can't wait for my trip to Cardiff. The last time I was there we got prison shamed and the time before that Mossy spent a few months in hospital and Thom Evans never played rugby again...

I know tournament rugby is quite different but Wales look like a husk of a team.

I'm definitely not looking forward to it - there are too many raw wounds from our trips down there of late for me to get my hopes up! 2 years ago was particularly frustrating as we were well in control for 60 minutes then just lost the plot in the last 20.

I'd like to think a brain fart on that scale cannot happen again.

Also, the Original Squashed Goblin is no longer playing, thankfully.

Think we’ll be too hot to handle if we get our first choice team out. Can see us winning by 15 points this time. Need a fit front row though.

Finding it hard to take Martyn Williams seriously when he says he doesn't think Scotland are better than Wales. Has he seen the dirge at the millennium stadium over the last 4 games? One too many head knocks methinks.

Scotland sneak up to 5th in the rankings. Is this our highest position?

Nah we were 4th just after the 6N last year from memory

How's Duncan Taylor getting on down at Sarries? I think he could be a good halfway house between Dunbar and Horne (what Matt Scott could/ should have been), creative with ball in hand and solid in defense. Good form a very potent partnership with Jones. The two would be an utter nightmare to defend against.

I personally think Taylor is our most talented centre, and has been a big part of Saracens' success over the last few years. Unfortunately he's injured just now.

It shows how strong our options in centre are just now that he may have to settle for a bench place!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I personally think Taylor is our most talented centre, and has been a big part of Saracens' success over the last few years. Unfortunately he's injured just now.

It shows how strong our options in centre are just now that he may have to settle for a bench place!

Yeah I remember possibly 2011 when, following Graeme Morrison's injury, there was literally no other fit inside centre who played rugby professionally

I thought we were utterly thrilling in the AI series and the performances against the ABs and Australia right up there with anything a Scotland team has done in my lifetime. The commitment and skill from the team, and pace of play, was outstanding. As well as the key players stepping up in a big way, I was excited to see a few journeyman players really step up at the highest level. My thoughts for the 6 Nations:

1. Toonie has the tactics spot on for this group of players and he shouldn't dilute the message one iota. For me that means Laidlaw and Pyrgos stepping aside in favour of Hidago-Clyne and young Horne. Price has the 9 jersey locked down for me, so we're really talking about bench impact.

2. The pack was very competitive but the set piece did miss WP Nel and Ali Dickinson. Hopefully Nel can come back soon (he'll love the style of play in the loose) and young Sutherland can continue his comeback in time for the 6 Nations. Bhatti and Marfo were superb cover, but if we want to topple England and Ireland then we can't afford to ship cheap penalties at the set piece.

3. McInally was great, and I think he and Fraser Brown give us two great dynamic options going forward. I think Ross Ford's days are numbered, and I'd be included to see Turner as the correct 3rd choice.

4. Russell is awesome. I hope Stuart Barnes' comments in the Sunday Times today prove illfounded. I must say that I'm a bit concerned about the style of play in France, and I'd have been much happier had he gone to a place like Exeter, but either way he is completely crucial to our hopes going forward, more so than Hogg, so we need him to stay injury-free.

I think we'll beat Wales, Italy and France next season, but I think the more structured play from England and Ireland may be able to capitalise on the looser aspects of our game, play I think both set pieces will earn points against us if Nel and Sutherland aren't fit. Still, no-one will be comfortable playing us, and all we will trouble all defences. This is such a welcome shift from the rugby we played for 15 or so years from 2000 onwards and it's a real pleasure watching Scotland now. Congrats to Toonie et al for a great start!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I thought we were utterly thrilling in the AI series and the performances against the ABs and Australia right up there with anything a Scotland team has done in my lifetime. The commitment and skill from the team, and pace of play, was outstanding. As well as the key players stepping up in a big way, I was excited to see a few journeyman players really step up at the highest level. My thoughts for the 6 Nations:

1. Toonie has the tactics spot on for this group of players and he shouldn't dilute the message one iota. For me that means Laidlaw and Pyrgos stepping aside in favour of Hidago-Clyne and young Horne. Price has the 9 jersey locked down for me, so we're really talking about bench impact.

2. The pack was very competitive but the set piece did miss WP Nel and Ali Dickinson. Hopefully Nel can come back soon (he'll love the style of play in the loose) and young Sutherland can continue his comeback in time for the 6 Nations. Bhatti and Marfo were superb cover, but if we want to topple England and Ireland then we can't afford to ship cheap penalties at the set piece.

3. McInally was great, and I think he and Fraser Brown give us two great dynamic options going forward. I think Ross Ford's days are numbered, and I'd be included to see Turner as the correct 3rd choice.

4. Russell is awesome. I hope Stuart Barnes' comments in the Sunday Times today prove illfounded. I must say that I'm a bit concerned about the style of play in France, and I'd have been much happier had he gone to a place like Exeter, but either way he is completely crucial to our hopes going forward, more so than Hogg, so we need him to stay injury-free.

I think we'll beat Wales, Italy and France next season, but I think the more structured play from England and Ireland may be able to capitalise on the looser aspects of our game, play I think both set pieces will earn points against us if Nel and Sutherland aren't fit. Still, no-one will be comfortable playing us, and all we will trouble all defences. This is such a welcome shift from the rugby we played for 15 or so years from 2000 onwards and it's a real pleasure watching Scotland now. Congrats to Toonie et al for a great start!

Where have you been FES? I presume that getting John Hardie off has taken it out of you?

What did Barnes say about Russell? I am not allowed to pay for the Times any more.

Paul Cully in the Sydney Morning Herald said in a recent column that it was within the realms of possibility FR could become the best 10 in the world.

To be honest I've just been really busy at work and at home, so my 606v2 time has been severely curtailed. The real killer was work denying me access!!

Barnes is just citing Carter and Sexton as examples of quality 10s who really struggled in France, because the packs are just massive and the French league is all about monster packs slugging it out. As a consequence the 9s just boss the game and ask the 10s to stand miles behind the advantage line waiting to kick the ball. He was really quite scathing about the quality of rugby in the league, and it being the exact opposite of what Russell would want to play. Now, I find it pretty odd that a team would spend that much money on Russell and then ask him not to play to his strengths, but you see that sort of things happening all the time, with players ill-suited to style of play they've been asked to play. Matt Williams made an art form of trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Still, it is a concern. Glasgow really is a wonderful home for Russell in terms of the way players are managed and looked after, and he's a great role model for young Hastings. Cotter thinks the move is a good thing, and he's no fool, but I don't think I really buy the idea that the move will make him a better player. I just hope it doesn't harm his development, because he's already a special player.

You do wonder if Scotland look better this term because of the Lions or lack of them, we will see come January whether this is the case. I fancy Gregor has more to do with it and its just a shame Hogg didnt have his chance last summer

In regards to Top 14, it can devolve in structure once the kicking starts (bigger players run out of puff quicker) and that is where players like Russell thrive. It took Naka a season to get to his best over there and it could be the same with Russell. No doubt Naka was at his best in Glasgow though. La Rochelle would have been a great fit and Clermont are presently out of fly halves (signed a medical joker who promptly got injured in his first game; Scott Spedding and Parra are now the 10 options; Parra-Russell-Fofana would be a class backline).

It can go either way. Wilkinson went over and stayed healthy. He was excellent. Sexton and Carter went over there, got injured (or had off the field issues) and never settled. If he can stay healthy, he will be a success.

If the choice was paying Russell £600k (or around 10% of Glasgow's playing budget) or letting him leave and bringing Hastings through (let alone Thomson, Jackson and Horne), they have made the right choice.

Gwlad wrote:You do wonder if Scotland look better this term because of the Lions or lack of them, we will see come January whether this is the case. I fancy Gregor has more to do with it and its just a shame Hogg didnt have his chance last summer

Hoggs injury was a bitter blow. His form before and after the Lions tour has been scintillating. With him being fit you do wonder what might have been, what a backline of Williams, Hogg and Watson might have conjured up??? We'll never know.

I'm glad his hip injury isn't severe and he'll be getting some decent game time before the 6N.

Whilst we are on the back 3, Visser was immense for Quinns today.

Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is a massive motivation for a lot of the snubbed players. Finn Russell, Johnny Gray, Hamish Watson, John Barclay and Alex Dunbar will all feel they have massive points to prove.

It would certainly motivate me.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

There is a reason why Racing 92 wanted Russell and not Biggar... Just putting it out there.

I'd also Wager that Watson is quite a bit better than Tipuric, certainly Watson was the best 7 in the AI's and he had a great 6N too. I'd also say Barclay is a far better 6 than Moriarty.

Do we really need to go through all this again?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do we really need to go through all this again?

Nah your right, we don't. The AIs showed that one team caused NZ some serious problems. The rest didn't.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

There is a reason why Racing 92 wanted Russell and not Biggar... Just putting it out there.

I'd also Wager that Watson is quite a bit better than Tipuric, certainly Watson was the best 7 in the AI's and he had a great 6N too. I'd also say Barclay is a far better 6 than Moriarty.

Wager away. My dad's bigger than yours. I'd say both Barclay and Watson are very good but prior to last season were playing in a terrible, terrible team which had been terrible for years and years and years.

I'm still.amazed people actually judge a player on what team they play for rather than their ability.

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

There is a reason why Racing 92 wanted Russell and not Biggar... Just putting it out there.

I'd also Wager that Watson is quite a bit better than Tipuric, certainly Watson was the best 7 in the AI's and he had a great 6N too. I'd also say Barclay is a far better 6 than Moriarty.

Wager away. My dad's bigger than yours. I'd say both Barclay and Watson are very good but prior to last season were playing in a terrible, terrible team which had been terrible for years and years and years.

So Gatland picked on reputation??? Well that's an admission and a start at least. Look its dead an buried, you guys drew the series and that is seen as a success by some parties so fair enough. I personally think it was a missed opportunity.

This is a Scottish thread though and I do feel that our lack of Lions tourists helped Townsend quite a bit, he had an extra 3 games to test some stuff out and IMO he carried forward some of those lessons learned onto the AIs.

Like I said before I think it was a solid B+ from Scotland, a bit of work to do on defence, but defensive structure will develop in time. We are currently doing the hard bit in international rugby at the moment and that is Scoring tries. Defence will come. I'm really happy with where we are, and Edinburgh are developing into a Solid team under Cockers and Rennie at Glasgow is a genius.. Exciting times.

? Not an 'admission' of anything. He isn't a fecking mind reader; if he'd known Scotland would finally grow a pair under their collective kilts maybe he'd have picked marginals like Watson and Barclay. Hogg was a shoo in but got crocked. Nel would have gone. Seymour went but as we saw last week is distinctly average. Gats picked on results; Scotland were awful for literally years and then came good for one season ffs. And good job he picked as he did because until Gregor arrived the only white line the Scots crossed was clearly not the one on the pitch

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Yawn. We won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Pretty much sums it up.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Yawn. We won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Pretty much sums it up.

You like a loser

Gwlad wrote:? Not an 'admission' of anything. He isn't a fecking mind reader; if he'd known Scotland would finally grow a pair under their collective kilts maybe he'd have picked marginals like Watson and Barclay. Hogg was a shoo in but got crocked. Nel would have gone. Seymour went but as we saw last week is distinctly average. Gats picked on results; Scotland were awful for literally years and then came good for one season ffs. And good job he picked as he did because until Gregor arrived the only white line the Scots crossed was clearly not the one on the pitch

Funny, before the Lions tour Scotland was higher ranked than Wales and now we are 5th and you are 7th.

For some illogical reason Gatland thought players he knew would be better than players he didn't know, right across the board. I mean the final tally of his selections makes comical reading ;-

England = 17 players
Wales = 16 players
Ireland = 11 players
Scotland = 5 players

According to the master tactician who clearly blew the opportunity , Wales had a similar quality squad to England and 50% better than Ireland !!

You gotta laugh.

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Yawn. We won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Pretty much sums it up.

You like a loser

You need to work on your grammar.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Hell be 29 for SA so hopefully will get his shot. Watson and Jones would also have been excellent tourists. You can be sure if Scots kick on and potentially win their RWC pool then there will be a stack of Scots on the next tour.

By then Gatland will be long gone, his blind favoritism was frankly an embarrassment to the Lions shirt.

Yawn. He won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Yawn. We won in Australia and nearly beat NZ. The only thing thats embarrassing is your blind assessment.

Pretty much sums it up.

You like a loser

You need to work on your grammar.

And you on your reading

You like a loser

alive/gwlad - can we just move on please? We've been here before, many times!

Gwlad wrote:? Not an 'admission' of anything. He isn't a fecking mind reader; if he'd known Scotland would finally grow a pair under their collective kilts maybe he'd have picked marginals like Watson and Barclay. Hogg was a shoo in but got crocked. Nel would have gone. Seymour went but as we saw last week is distinctly average. Gats picked on results; Scotland were awful for literally years and then came good for one season ffs. And good job he picked as he did because until Gregor arrived the only white line the Scots crossed was clearly not the one on the pitch

Please don't talk drivel.

"GATS picked on results "

No he didn't, Scotland we're ahead of wales in the 2017 6n. 14 points vs 10 points.

Scotlands results we're better than wales so you need to get your facts right, not wrong.

It's nice to see the classics coming out again, I mean the new stuff is fine, but you can't beat the old back catalog.

EWT Spoons wrote:It's nice to see the classics coming out again, I mean the new stuff is fine, but you can't beat the old back catalog.

I was also staggered to hear that Phil Vickery has retired.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:It's nice to see the classics coming out again, I mean the new stuff is fine, but you can't beat the old back catalog.

I was also staggered to hear that Phil Vickery has retired.

Can't believe BoD was dropped for the 3rd Lions test.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:It's nice to see the classics coming out again, I mean the new stuff is fine, but you can't beat the old back catalog.

I was also staggered to hear that Phil Vickery has retired.

Can't believe BoD was dropped for the 3rd Lions test.

So who would you say was Ireland's best number 13 just now?

I still rate Ringrose, he has everything you want in a 13.

Depends on who they have at 15. You got to find space for Aki and Henshaw. Does Henshaw go to 15 and Aki to 12? I really rate Aki and they are ignoring McCloskey who I think could be special if he can sort out his defense. Scannell, Farrell, Marshall and Olding (assuming he gets cleared) are all being ignored.

I think the Irish are the only ones in the 6 nations who can actively compete with our centre depth based on their style of play (plenty of good England and French centres who are not internationals and don't fit the style (e.g. Slade, Bastaureud).

Do Wales actually have a centre who is better at 13 than 12 (S Williams, Parkes and Roberts are all 12's who can play 13)? Tyler Morgan?

For those that didn't get the joke, last summer we literally had months of Irish debate and bickering on here about who the best 13 was for Ireland. Entire threads worth of debate.

Given that Spoons commented about the old classics coming out Radge and I have brought up other examples!

Jokes that you have to explain are the best kind of jokes...

RDW_Scotland wrote:For those that didn't get the joke, last summer we literally had months of Irish debate and bickering on here about who the best 13 was for Ireland. Entire threads worth of debate.

Given that Spoons commented about the old classics coming out Radge and I have brought up other examples!

Jokes that you have to explain are the best kind of jokes...

LOL that one slipped me by...

reallybored wrote:imo the thing Townsend has to address is how we navigate teams that want to drag us into an arm wrestle up front, i.e. England, Boks, France.

If the fastest show on earth doesn't work, what's our plan B.

England will have little interest in getting involved in an arm wrestle. We counter-attack with the best.

I'd put England's attack against Scotland's any time.

Really? I wouldn't take a single england back into the Scotland squad.

You wouldn't take May, Watson, Nowell or Daly over Seymour/Jones?

You make a good point though, I'd only take Hogg over the English options, I prefer our options.

Just a little thank you on Chris Harris. Not sure he's quite Int class but he came back from his time with Scotland on fire! He was amazing against Saints last week and a big reason we hammered them by 2 points.

alive555 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:? Not an 'admission' of anything. He isn't a fecking mind reader; if he'd known Scotland would finally grow a pair under their collective kilts maybe he'd have picked marginals like Watson and Barclay. Hogg was a shoo in but got crocked. Nel would have gone. Seymour went but as we saw last week is distinctly average. Gats picked on results; Scotland were awful for literally years and then came good for one season ffs. And good job he picked as he did because until Gregor arrived the only white line the Scots crossed was clearly not the one on the pitch

Please don't talk drivel.  

"GATS picked on results "

No he didn't,  Scotland we're ahead of wales in the 2017 6n.  14 points vs 10 points.

Scotlands results we're better than wales so you need to get your facts right,  not wrong.

If you need someone to blame - obviously - try Prince Gregor of Townsend who was too good to go on the lions tour and therefore couldn't argue the toss for marginal picks.

TJ wrote:Really?  I wouldn't take a single england back into the Scotland squad.

Gwlad wrote:

TJ wrote:Really?  I wouldn't take a single england back into the Scotland squad.

Not such an outrageous comment to make any more.

I would say Scotland's first choice backline is:

09 Ali Price
10 Finn Russell
11 Tim Visser
12 Huw Jones
13 Duncan Taylor
14 Sean Maitland
15 Stuart Hogg

I would potentially have Daly on the wing instead of Visser but apart from that, is it clear that the English incumbents in each position are better players? No, I don't think it's so straightforward.

From the 9-15 shown above, I honestly believe that Scotland has stronger starters than England at 10, 12 and 15 with the rest up for debate.

I'd have Seymour instead of Visser.

But no - I wouldn't take any of the england backs over scotlands - but I would also assume the same for English fans.

Does EJ even know his best backs? Ford at 10 or Farrell? Both inferior to Russell who is also the better kicker.