Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Stoke have spent 10 years in the premier league, they are bottom 3 and dumped out the cup by coventry. The perspy is that they are an established prem team, hughes has them shipping goals, not scoring and being certainties for relegation. They have spent big money on wimmer who has struggled, imbula who is out on loan and berahino who cant score, bojan is well paid and on the bench for alaves. Stoke fans have perspective, hughes had no clues. Surprised he stayed this long.

My family are potters!

[navyblueshorts]

Is it correct that they are shthole countries?

Perhaps Trump would be better advised correcting the many sh!thole parts of his own nation before demonstrating, yet again, that he's not fit for the office he holds?

[kwinigolfer]

Apparently this was all premeditated; he is reported to have called various of his sycophants the night before to gain their approval for using "tough language" as they thought it would appeal to their base.
Guaranteed to be divisive regardless of how anyone might parse the actual words used and any accuracy they might have.
navy is spot on!

[pedro]

navy, aren't you being prejudiced by using his past statements as basis for your verdict?

Why not focus on the actual matter? Is it incorrect that said countries are sh!tholes?

I'm using his past behaviour/comments as evidence to support the conjecture that he's a racist and he probably used racially discriminatory language in that meeting. It's not prejudicial when it's demonstrably true.

Whether those countries he referred to are, in reality, actual sh!tholes or not, he's an ar5ehole for using that and whatever other language he used in that meeting. Is he so damned stupid that he'd use language like that as POTUS and also about the nations from whom the U.S. has a history of drawing slave labour from? The man is a cretin or, probably worse, he is indeed a racist scumbag.
No matter though, his fan base will keep lapping it up. No matter that he's damaging the U.S. reputation for decades to come. No matter that his language gives justification for the bona fide cretins in the U.S. to express their hatreds a little more openly.

But to label the statement as racist is, well, based on prejudice. It is you who pull the race card, not DT.

[kwinigolfer]

You're clutching at straws pedro!
It was intended to be divisive and used in his war against anything other than white immigration and that's exactly how it's playing out.
His base loves it.

[pedro]

Apparently this was all premeditated; he is reported to have called various of his sycophants the night before to gain their approval for using "tough language" as they thought it would appeal to their base.
Guaranteed to be divisive regardless of how anyone might parse the actual words used and any accuracy they might have.
navy is spot on!

kwini, what's your take on internet trolling and the whole fake news discussion?

[pedro]

You're clutching at straws pedro!
It was intended to be divisive and used in his war against anything other than white immigration and that's exactly how it's playing out.
His base loves it.

Yes I am. But I also oppose to hypocrisy and synthetic outrage as super calls it.

The objection from people is not so much what he said but how he said it. And that in particular ignites those inclined to synthetic outrage. A lot of the smoke DT gets is related to his personality. And fairly so. But why not move on and go after the content of the political program rather than how it's communicated?

[kwinigolfer]

pedro,
I don't really understand "internet trolling" and, apart from looking at one or two twitter accounts, never use "social media"; this is more than enough for me.

Fake news? I'm against it, try to avoid MSNBC just as surely as I would never watch Focks; I bookmark the Wall Street Journal to try to keep some perspective of US politics/news. It's tough to do!

But I DO know a few people whom Drumpf would consider to be his base, and they're exactly the people who get excited by all his nonsense. I've always hated him, no more now than thirty years ago, except that he's now in a position that is likely to imperil the world! Which seems perfectly happy to let him do it.

[navyblueshorts]

navy, aren't you being prejudiced by using his past statements as basis for your verdict?

Why not focus on the actual matter? Is it incorrect that said countries are sh!tholes?

I'm using his past behaviour/comments as evidence to support the conjecture that he's a racist and he probably used racially discriminatory language in that meeting. It's not prejudicial when it's demonstrably true.

Whether those countries he referred to are, in reality, actual sh!tholes or not, he's an ar5ehole for using that and whatever other language he used in that meeting. Is he so damned stupid that he'd use language like that as POTUS and also about the nations from whom the U.S. has a history of drawing slave labour from? The man is a cretin or, probably worse, he is indeed a racist scumbag.
No matter though, his fan base will keep lapping it up. No matter that he's damaging the U.S. reputation for decades to come. No matter that his language gives justification for the bona fide cretins in the U.S. to express their hatreds a little more openly.

But to label the statement as racist is, well, based on prejudice. It is you who pull the race card, not DT.

And that there is precisely why he's in power. Give me strength.

[navyblueshorts]

You're clutching at straws pedro!
It was intended to be divisive and used in his war against anything other than white immigration and that's exactly how it's playing out.
His base loves it.

Yes I am. But I also oppose to hypocrisy and synthetic outrage as super calls it.

The objection from people is not so much what he said but how he said it. And that in particular ignites those inclined to synthetic outrage. A lot of the smoke DT gets is related to his personality. And fairly so. But why not move on and go after the content of the political program rather than how it's communicated?

Well, you're absolutely right there in the sense that the content of his program(s) should be put under the microscope, but to say that one should ignore the divisive rhetoric of this clown is naive. Language matters, especially when you're ranting from the office of POTUS. Everything he says shines a light on the utter lack of political/diplomatic experience and the potential consequences of his behaviour.

[pedro]

I'm not saying DT isn't a racist. He most likely is. I just think it's a bit tiring that people keep getting "surprised" by his demeanor and, well, "clutch to straws" in everything the man says/said or does/did. The Russian investigation is just an example. The man is clearly not a politician, he proved that he is the buffoon people warned he would be. But he thrives on it and is clearly not stupid. The guardianista/CNN/NYT segment and PC brigade have again and again proven to be his useful idiots and are as much to thank for his election as his redneck base. We have seen similar examples here in Europe in the last 10 years, where people have turned towards DT type leaders. DT is as much a protest as anything else, and the bourgeois just can't stop feeding the beast. Don't be surprised if the man wins a second term.

[BlueCoverman]

Paul Lambert to Stoke, the fans are fuming. I cant see what other options they had, after being turned down by three managers.

Just 2 relegation spots for the rest of the premiership strugglers to worry about now then...

[kwinigolfer]

Drumpf is to statesmanship what this guy is to careful driving:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42688747

[navyblueshorts]

I'm not saying DT isn't a racist. He most likely is. I just think it's a bit tiring that people keep getting "surprised" by his demeanor and, well, "clutch to straws" in everything the man says/said or does/did. The Russian investigation is just an example. The man is clearly not a politician, he proved that he is the buffoon people warned he would be. But he thrives on it and is clearly not stupid. The guardianista/CNN/NYT segment and PC brigade have again and again proven to be his useful idiots and are as much to thank for his election as his redneck base. We have seen similar examples here in Europe in the last 10 years, where people have turned towards DT type leaders. DT is as much a protest as anything else, and the bourgeois just can't stop feeding the beast. Don't be surprised if the man wins a second term.

All good points, but are you saying that politically/societally divisive comments that he makes shouldn't be challenged? Or that his links to any Russian interference in the recent U.S. election shouldn't be investigated? If so, I disagree. You're right though that he, and others of his ilk, are probably better challenged over the lack of feasibility of their policies. Not sure it works though - loads of the pro-Brexit claims were comprehensively torpedoed and we were told everyone had had enough of 'experts'. It would be funny watching the car crash if we weren't all onboard as it happens.

[navyblueshorts]

Drumpf is to statesmanship what this guy is to careful driving:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42688747

Impressive prang that!

[kwinigolfer]

sh1t or bust at Stoke, and for Lambert's career I would think. Kinda hope he's successful.


Lots of nice tributes to Cyrille Regis; never saw him play for West Brom but well remember the abuse (much of it in good humour, but thoroughly racist nonetheless) that Clyde Best used to get from the Chicken Run at Upton Park a few years earlier. Always seemed a lovely man.

(Don't remember the same invective at Orient on the few times I saw the great Laurie Cunningham.)

[JAS]

What fascinates me about American politics is that Oprah makes a speech at an awards ceremony...and people are touting her for a tilt at the Presidency. Seriously wtf?? I’ve either missed something or the talent pool of political talent is beyond empty or the American media are desperate, delusional or both. Having said that I suppose if you work on the basis of could she do better than the current encumbent then I suppose the bar ain’t very high.

[Shotrock]

JAS - Celebrity and electability are very real here. The major party leaders would put a chimp in the top spot if said chimp carried their party to the top spot.

[navyblueshorts]

What fascinates me about American politics is that Oprah makes a speech at an awards ceremony...and people are touting her for a tilt at the Presidency. Seriously wtf?? I’ve either missed something or the talent pool of political talent is beyond empty or the American media are desperate, delusional or both. Having said that I suppose if you work on the basis of could she do better than the current encumbent then I suppose the bar ain’t very high.

If Oprah were to win, take advice from those that know about who would make good appointments, make them and then listen to them, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do very well. Still, seems a bit odd given lack of political/administrative experience. Anything's better than the incumbent.

[super_realist]

Paul Lambert to Stoke, the fans are fuming. I cant see what other options they had, after being turned down by three managers.

Who do they expect? They're Stoke for goodness sake, they're not likely to attract a big name.

[super_realist]

What fascinates me about American politics is that Oprah makes a speech at an awards ceremony...and people are touting her for a tilt at the Presidency. Seriously wtf?? I’ve either missed something or the talent pool of political talent is beyond empty or the American media are desperate, delusional or both. Having said that I suppose if you work on the basis of could she do better than the current encumbent then I suppose the bar ain’t very high.

If Oprah were to win, take advice from those that know about who would make good appointments, make them and then listen to them, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do very well. Still, seems a bit odd given lack of political/administrative experience. Anything's better than the incumbent.

Oprah is a bigot herself.

[Diggers]

sh1t or bust at Stoke, and for Lambert's career I would think. Kinda hope he's successful.


Lots of nice tributes to Cyrille Regis; never saw him play for West Brom but well remember the abuse (much of it in good humour, but thoroughly racist nonetheless) that Clyde Best used to get from the Chicken Run at Upton Park a few years earlier. Always seemed a lovely man.

(Don't remember the same invective at Orient on the few times I saw the great Laurie Cunningham.)

Loved watching Regis, what a powerhouse, real gent as well apparently. Cunningham was a massive talent, Remi Moses a heck of a player as well. Seeing a black footballer used to be so rare, now if you read about a young prospect you expect them to be black.

[Diggers]

What fascinates me about American politics is that Oprah makes a speech at an awards ceremony...and people are touting her for a tilt at the Presidency. Seriously wtf?? I’ve either missed something or the talent pool of political talent is beyond empty or the American media are desperate, delusional or both. Having said that I suppose if you work on the basis of could she do better than the current encumbent then I suppose the bar ain’t very high.

If Oprah were to win, take advice from those that know about who would make good appointments, make them and then listen to them, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do very well. Still, seems a bit odd given lack of political/administrative experience. Anything's better than the incumbent.

Oprah is a bigot herself.

In the same way Roy Hodgson is a raving egomaniac?
Great interview by him after the win on Saturday, I have literally never seen a manager go so far out of his way to play down his part in a revival, heap praise on the players and stress that there was a long way to go. Clearly just part of a cunning, Machiavellian plan!

[beninho]

94/95 my first watching wycombe, regis played up front with simon garner a partnership of nearly 80! But he bagged 10 goals, and was great to watch.

[westisbest]

Watched Regis a couple of times at the Villa.
Heard he was a decent bloke to.

[westisbest]

Also sad to hear the passing of Dolores O Riordan

[SmithersJones]

Trump saying African countries and Haiti are Poopie (why can't we have more immigrants from Norway?) isn't racist, but Oprah is a bigot. Where's Monty when you need him?

[beninho]

Love the Ukip story. A party who's supporters tend to be cranks and racists, shocked that leader has shacked up with a racist. Still can't believe the government got played by the party which led to the brexit craziness we have now.

[super_realist]

Trump saying African countries and Haiti are Poopie (why can't we have more immigrants from Norway?) isn't racist, but Oprah is a bigot. Where's Monty when you need him?

Of course that isn't racist. by definition, it can't be racist. There is no Haitian race, whilst saying a country is a dump says nothing of the people who live there.
I bet you've described a town or country as a s-hithole, pretty sure you weren't referring to the race of the people who might live there.

Oprah however is very dismissive against atheists.

[Diggers]

Super, you are dismissive of believers (as are many of us, not quite to your level though), so if she is a bigot, then so are you.

[navyblueshorts]

What fascinates me about American politics is that Oprah makes a speech at an awards ceremony...and people are touting her for a tilt at the Presidency. Seriously wtf?? I’ve either missed something or the talent pool of political talent is beyond empty or the American media are desperate, delusional or both. Having said that I suppose if you work on the basis of could she do better than the current encumbent then I suppose the bar ain’t very high.

If Oprah were to win, take advice from those that know about who would make good appointments, make them and then listen to them, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd do very well. Still, seems a bit odd given lack of political/administrative experience. Anything's better than the incumbent.

Oprah is a bigot herself.

I'll point you to the above...

[navyblueshorts]

Trump saying African countries and Haiti are Poopie (why can't we have more immigrants from Norway?) isn't racist, but Oprah is a bigot. Where's Monty when you need him?

Of course that isn't racist. by definition, it can't be racist. There is no Haitian race, whilst saying a country is a dump says nothing of the people who live there.
I bet you've described a town or country as a s-hithole, pretty sure you weren't referring to the race of the people who might live there.

Oprah however is very dismissive against atheists.

Stop splitting hairs Super. The man's a kumquat and has more than just this episode for form.

He should definitely concentrate on his own sh!thole of country before commenting on others:

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-america-Poopie-country-780888

[McLaren]

Super

Would you agree that Trump is a racist?

[beninho]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

[JAS]

Oh there’s no doubt he is, not only is he naturally racist but he actually revels in being provocative about it but here’s the big rub for the American people what if, just what if...come the next election he has turned the economy around, a long bull run in the stock market coupled with plummeting unemployment and significantly raised living standards for the majority. What then?? Personally I don’t think that’s possible though no doubt his fake news outlets will try and paint it so but...if it were to happen...I would guess he’d be re-elected with a significant majority.

[navyblueshorts]

Oh there’s no doubt he is, not only is he naturally racist but he actually revels in being provocative about it but here’s the big rub for the American people what if, just what if...come the next election he has turned the economy around, a long bull run in the stock market coupled with plummeting unemployment and significantly raised living standards for the majority. What then?? Personally I don’t think that’s possible though no doubt his fake news outlets will try and paint it so but...if it were to happen...I would guess he’d be re-elected with a significant majority.

Well, the opposition need to get this shot down sooner, rather than later. Trump inherited the conditions and he's done little since. Credit should go to the previous administration for sorting out the scheiss inherited from Dubya. Doubt that'll happen, but it should.

[super_realist]

Super

Would you agree that Trump is a racist?

He probably is Mac, but saying a country is a s-hithole is not a racist statement. Have you never referred to a country as a s-hithole? I guarantee you have, although probably before your current SJW phase.

I'm not defending the man, but this ridiculous outrage that emanates as soon as someone says something they don't like and overacts more than an American sitcom is really stupid.

[super_realist]

Super, you are dismissive of believers (as are many of us, not quite to your level though), so if she is a bigot, then so are you.

Not even slightly Diggers. Oprah said that atheists are incapable of awe and wonder, I only say that theists are credulous for believing without evidence. The two are not even remotely comparable. Fat Oprah's statement is factually incorrect and woefully ignorant and mine is a statement of fact and a literal definition.

[Diggers]

I think you have used a lot stronger words than credulous, use fairly offensive language such as carpet sniffers, which clearly shows a contempt for believers.
A bigot is someone who is intolerant of other people opinions, I don't really see how you can in all seriousness claim you are tolerant of followers of religion.
To be honest, I'm feeling fairly like minded at the minute.

[beninho]

You are so right super realist, you are awesome. Everything you say is fact because you are so damn cool. All those other people with their different views are idiots, and the fat ones are disgusting. Everyone shoukd be like you and agree with what you say.
There is a god and he is a fit, healthy, great golfer, living in a good part of Edinburgh, driving a nice car, wealthy, good job, well travelled man, seems to good to be true. But its not. All hail the saviour.

[pedro]

If you see racism everywhere, you’re most likely a racist yourself. N-Africa is home to some of the worst sh!thole countries, with millions of emigrants in US/Europe, yet people belong to the white race. Southern Africa is home to sh!thole countries as well, with much fewer emigrants in US/Europe but people are black. Is there then a correlation btw sh!tholes and race if you make a broad statement about the continent? Or is it just so that you can’t call out Africa in broad/general terms, before someone calls you a racist, most likely because of own prejudice?
Again, DT is probably racist, but this statement is not racist as such.
With that being said, one could hope this could be a wake up call to the African people and others to get rid of their corrupt dictators and clean up their countries. Because they are indeed very well aware that their countries are sh!tholes. So far nothing good has come out of victimising the continent.

[kwinigolfer]

The only thing is, he basically said we don't want people from s h countries, we want them from Norway . . . . . . . . whether racist or not, definitely a preference for white immigrants versus non-white applicants from certain countries/continents.

[pedro]

Clearly Oprah would handle Little Rocketman differently. Most likely she’d just invite him into a studio full of screaming housewives. That should make even the worst dictator stick his pipe in.

[pedro]

The only thing is, he basically said we don't want people from s h countries, we want them from Norway . . . . . . . . whether racist or not, definitely a preference for white immigrants versus non-white applicants from certain countries/continents.

The norwegian PM was there on a state visit. Had the singaporean or japanese PM been there you couldn’t rule out he’d have used singapore or japan as example.

PS. You can’t deny the correlation btw “white” countries and skill level. Nothing racist in that. And is who we decide need a tourist visa to visit our country racist too?

[Diggers]

I'll take a holistic view of Trump the potential racist. The body of work he has put together over the years is what I'll base my judgment on. That's the same for all his personality traits. My conclusion is that he's a sexist (most likely sex pest), racist, ignorant, arrogant (and I'd say pretty stupid) cnut who I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire.

[beninho]

Though he wouldn't mind if you did piss on him? Though he would prefere a russian hooker

[super_realist]

The only thing is, he basically said we don't want people from s h countries, we want them from Norway . . . . . . . . whether racist or not, definitely a preference for white immigrants versus non-white applicants from certain countries/continents.

Not necessarily Kwini. You could look at it from the point of view that the level of education in Norway is extremely high, therefore any migrants who came from "places like Norway" would be a very high calibre who would be likely to bring skills that would benefit the US, you can't say the same thing for countries like Haiti. There's nothing wrong or racist about wanting your immigrants to have a positive impact on your country, and like it or not, those from Norway are far more likely to do this than those from Haiti or Sierra Leone.
Does anyone think that Australia's points system is discriminatory or racist? No, it's picking the people who bring value.

Norway, despite what you might think it is quite diverse and already has a pretty high level of ethnic minorities within it, as do Denmark and Sweden.

I've no doubt that Trump is a racist turd and what he said isn't very statesman like, but this particular phrase isn't racist, unless you are looking with a view to make it racist.

[navyblueshorts]

If you see racism everywhere, you’re most likely a racist yourself. N-Africa is home to some of the worst sh!thole countries, with millions of emigrants in US/Europe, yet people belong to the white race. Southern Africa is home to sh!thole countries as well, with much fewer emigrants in US/Europe but people are black. Is there then a correlation btw sh!tholes and race if you make a broad statement about the continent? Or is it just so that you can’t call out Africa in broad/general terms, before someone calls you a racist, most likely because of own prejudice?
Again, DT is probably racist, but this statement is not racist as such.
With that being said, one could hope this could be a wake up call to the African people and others to get rid of their corrupt dictators and clean up their countries. Because they are indeed very well aware that their countries are sh!tholes. So far nothing good has come out of victimising the continent.

You really aren't helping yourself here.

[navyblueshorts]

I'll take a holistic view of Trump the potential racist. The body of work he has put together over the years is what I'll base my judgment on. That's the same for all his personality traits. My conclusion is that he's a sexist (most likely sex pest), racist, ignorant, arrogant (and I'd say pretty stupid) cnut who I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire.

^^^^ Exactly.

[navyblueshorts]

The only thing is, he basically said we don't want people from s h countries, we want them from Norway . . . . . . . . whether racist or not, definitely a preference for white immigrants versus non-white applicants from certain countries/continents.

Not necessarily Kwini. You could look at it from the point of view that the level of education in Norway is extremely high, therefore any migrants who came from "places like Norway" would be a very high calibre who would be likely to bring skills that would benefit the US, you can't say the same thing for countries like Haiti. There's nothing wrong or racist about wanting your immigrants to have a positive impact on your country, and like it or not, those from Norway are far more likely to do this than those from Haiti or Sierra Leone.
Does anyone think that Australia's points system is discriminatory or racist? No, it's picking the people who bring value.

Norway, despite what you might think it is quite diverse and already has a pretty high level of ethnic minorities within it, as do Denmark and Sweden.

I've no doubt that Trump is a racist turd and what he said isn't very statesman like, but this particular phrase isn't racist, unless you are looking with a view to make it racist.

Sorry, where America is concerned, this doesn't wash.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

America has made its image in the idea that you can go to America with nothing and no skills, but you can 'make it'. There are plenty of Haitians, for example, in America now who didn't go there with 'skills' and yet have made a positive contribution. There are also, I'm sure, plenty of skilled Haitians in Haiti and elsewhere who wouldn't fit Trump's (and your) profiling of themselves. There are, I'm sure, plenty of ****ing stupid and unskilled Norwegians as well.

[puligny]

Surely Trumps latest is a classic “dog whistle” designed to send a message without being specific. Frankly the longer we agonise about what he’s up to the better for him, as the insidious and despicapable become normalised.
We’ve seen it before, or at least our parents/grandparents did.

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