6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

First topic message reminder :

     
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Ah, here now lads, this was a nice thread.

Typically clear and well executed piece of writing by Tom English about this game:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43171874

A bit bombastic but points all well made.

It still is, although a bit like our coaches the bite is being imported from abroad.

I think the key point there is mistakes - if we have a high error count we're doomed as England will strangle the life out of us with possession and territory, not to mention their strong counter attacking.

Don't know if it got noted. Scotland u20s won 24-17.

Did anyone see any of the game? Anyone stand out?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Ah, here now lads, this was a nice thread.

Typically clear and well executed piece of writing by Tom English about this game:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43171874

A bit bombastic but points all well made.

It still is, although a bit like our coaches the bite is being imported from abroad.

I think the key point there is mistakes - if we have a high error count we're doomed as England will strangle the life out of us with possession and territory, not to mention their strong counter attacking.

From an England point of view I do think he's more down than he could be about the quality rugby from England. When we do move the ball (and manage to avoid the almost inevitable handling error) the moves tend to be very quick. The 'quality' rugby only appears in short bursts because that is all we need to score. When the ball goes from side to side on the pitch it might look pretty but usually doesn't because we will make a hash of it.

We also like to make the other team play, which of course drives everybody crazy (i.e. 'why are we always kicking the ball away' etc)

Hazel Sapling wrote:Don't know if it got noted. Scotland u20s won 24-17.

Did anyone see any of the game? Anyone stand out?

Yeah I mentioned it yesterday- our rolling maul got us 3 tries (one a penalty try) and young standoff Ross Thomson got a good write up.

It really was a David Vs Goliath win!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Don't know if it got noted. Scotland u20s won 24-17.

Did anyone see any of the game? Anyone stand out?

Yeah I mentioned it yesterday- our rolling maul got us 3 tries (one a penalty try) and young standoff Ross Thomson got a good write up.

It really was a David Vs Goliath win!

I don't think so RDW. England generally mix things up in the 6N then recall players for the WC. We usually lose a game, it's only a few years since you humped us by a big margin (or is that the Saxons...).

We normally come good at the WC with more AP players involved, can't recall the last time we didn't make a semi or final.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Don't know if it got noted. Scotland u20s won 24-17.

Did anyone see any of the game? Anyone stand out?

Yeah I mentioned it yesterday- our rolling maul got us 3 tries (one a penalty try) and young standoff Ross Thomson got a good write up.

It really was a David Vs Goliath win!

I don't think so RDW. England generally mix things up in the 6N then recall players for the WC. We usually lose a game, it's only a few years since you humped us by a big margin (or is that the Saxons...).

We normally come good at the WC with more AP players involved, can't recall the last time we didn't make a semi or final.

Oh the U20s!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus, it took me a while there to realise which team you were on about there, Pooly.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Don't know if it got noted. Scotland u20s won 24-17.

Did anyone see any of the game? Anyone stand out?

Yeah I mentioned it yesterday- our rolling maul got us 3 tries (one a penalty try) and young standoff Ross Thomson got a good write up.

It really was a David Vs Goliath win!

I don't think so RDW. England generally mix things up in the 6N then recall players for the WC. We usually lose a game, it's only a few years since you humped us by a big margin (or is that the Saxons...).

We normally come good at the WC with more AP players involved, can't recall the last time we didn't make a semi or final.

Seriously?? While our academy structure is getting better most of our squad barely have experience of amateur Premiership rugby never mind pro rugby. The English academy structure produces significantly more players than Scotland and they are full-time players. Our standoff is a student  who is  a part-time academy player.

We were pumped by Wales and France.

Unless England put out their under 16s team you cannot seriously claim this was anything other than a major shock.

I don't think it was a big shock with the amount of changes made to the England side after hammering Wales. I count around 10/11 changes to the XV, that's a lot. Fair play to Scotland, it's a big scalp. But, as good as England are at this level, the depth isn't always there.

V Wales

England U20: Tom Parton (London Irish); Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints),Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks), Ben Loader (London Irish); James Grayson (Northampton Saints), Ben White (Leicester Tigers, capt); Toby Trinder (Northampton Saints), Henry Walker (Gloucester), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Dino Lamb (Harlequins), Sam Lewis (Leicester Tigers), Josh Basham (London Irish), Tom Willis (Wasps), Sam Moore (Sale Sharks).

V Scotland

15. Jordan Olowofela, 14. Tom Seabrook, 13. Ollie Lawrence, 12. Will Butler - capt, 11. Cadan Murley, 10. Tom Hardwick, 9. Rory Brand, 1. Alex Seville, 2. Gabriel Oghre, 3. Ehren Painter, 4. Ted Hill, 5. Sam Lewis, 6. Josh Basham, 7. Aaron Hinkley, 8. Sam Moore.

I've not seen many of those players in the AP.

Come on sgt there are 12 AP clubs and all of them have academies, who I'm assuming are pretty much full time players, and I'm sure lots of championship clubs have academies too.

Scotland have 30 full time academy players aligned to two professional teams, and a similar number of part time players academy players who are generally a year younger.

The difference in playing numbers and experience is far more vast than making changes to 2/3rds of the team. The RFU are in a bad place if changing 10 players means the difference between a BP win over Wales and losing to Scotland, who have always struggled at this level!

Interesting Pooly.

This was the Scotland team:

15. Paddy Dewhirst (Ayr)*
14. Rory McMichael (Glasgow Hawks)
13. Stafford McDowall (Ayr)** VICE CAPTAIN
12. Callum McLelland (Edinburgh Rugby)
11. Kyle Rowe (Glasgow Hawks)
10. Ross Thompson (Glasgow Hawks)*
9. Charlie Chapman (Gloucester)

1. Shaun Gunn (Edinburgh Accies)*
2. Robbie Smith (Ayr)** CAPTAIN
3. Finlay Richardson (Edinburgh Accies)
4. Ewan Johnson (Racing 92)
5. Jamie Hodgson (Watsonains)*
6. Martin Hughes (Heriots)*
7. Guy Graham (Hawick)
8. Devante Onojaife (Northampton Saints)

Replacements:

16. Bradley Clements (Ealing)
17. Nathan McBeth (Lions)
18. Murphy Walker (Dundee HSFP)*
19. Marshall Sykes (St Joseph's College / Northampton Saints)
20. Rory Darge (Melrose)*
21. Kaleem Barreto (Marr)**
22. Fraser Strachan (Northampton Saints)
23. Logan Trotter (Stirling County)*

Relatively few have roles at professional clubs.

*BT Sport Scottish Rugby Academy supported players 2017-18

**BT Sport Scottish Rugby Academy Stage 3 players 2017-18

So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games? Was it an anomaly that will never happen again? Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

SecretFly wrote:So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games?  Was it an anomaly that will never happen again?  Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

It sounded like a classic Scottish Calcutta cup victory - the underdogs putting in the performance of their lives and getting really stuck into the English and they had no answer to it!

I'd take the same result today!

SecretFly wrote:So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games?  Was it an anomaly that will never happen again?  Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

Fly - Scotland came 5th in last year's U20 World Championship. This was not luck. About all you need to know.

Talented crop of youngsters and a new academy structure. Quod erat demonstrandum.

George Carlin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games?  Was it an anomaly that will never happen again?  Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

Fly - Scotland came 5th in last year's U20 World Championship. This was not luck. About all you need to know.

Talented crop of youngsters and a new academy structure. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Problem is the vast majority of those players are no longer under 20s this year - the team that won last night wasn't the team that finished 5th at the WC!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games?  Was it an anomaly that will never happen again?  Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

Fly - Scotland came 5th in last year's U20 World Championship.

This was not luck. About all you need to know.

Talented crop of youngsters and a new academy structure. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Problem is the vast majority of those players are no longer under 20s this year - the team that won last night wasn't the team that finished 5th at the WC!

This happens to all U20's sides though RDW, not just Scotland.

You sound like you're either over rating England or under selling Scotland. Is losing a game away from home (at Int U20 level) after making 11 changes to your side a huge shock?.....I don't think it is.

Not having a go in the slightest, but you don't really get to tell me how I should feel about the game if you know what I mean. I seen that line up announced and thought a loss was a big possibility.

I think its a huge shock. We were all expecting Scotland to get thrashed

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So...with all the team sheets and who plays what of a weekend.............. was it a fluke? Was it just one of those games?  Was it an anomaly that will never happen again?  Was it Scottish rugby in better health than even their most ardent fans might have hoped for?

What was it???!!!!!!!!

Don't just talk around the edges - what was it???!!

Fly - Scotland came 5th in last year's U20 World Championship.

This was not luck. About all you need to know.

Talented crop of youngsters and a new academy structure. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Problem is the vast majority of those players are no longer under 20s this year - the team that won last night wasn't the team that finished 5th at the WC!

This happens to all U20's sides though RDW, not just Scotland.

You sound like you're either over rating England or under selling Scotland. Is losing a game away from home (at Int U20 level) after making 11 changes to your side a huge shock?.....I don't think it is.

Not having a go in the slightest, but you don't really get to tell me how I should feel about the game if you know what I mean. I seen that line up announced and thought a loss was a big possibility.

Fair enough sgt I just think Scotland beating England at junior level can't be classed as anything other than s shock result such is the vast difference in resources between the two teams. The fact that we were absolutely horsed in the previous two rounds also suggested that our current under 20s team is very early in their development.

Anyway, let's move on!

One bookie was giving odds of 250/1 against Scotland apparently!

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Just wear the trousers and tell them you're not changing your plans.

Reminds me of the time I was in my sister's home.  She wasn't quite well but she was intent on driving somewhere.  Her husband was not having it.  He was concerned for her and he was putting his foot down:  "You are not going!  That's it.  I'm not giving you the keys!"
It was impressive to see him in action.
My sister put her hand out and gave him the look of death:  "Give me the keys" she said clearly and quietly.

He handed them over like a little pup that just peed in the wrong place.  Oh how I laughed.

Well I'm still watching the game, but we live in a small flat so there isn't really much space or another TV to watch it away from the outlaws.

I'll just have to deal with completely boring chat between the wife and MIL, and try not to make it obvious that I'm ignoring my FIL who has no interest in rugby at all

I'll report back later with how it went

Here's the highlights!

https://youtu.be/iOn6RNudqhI

RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's the highlights!

https://youtu.be/iOn6RNudqhI

Fabulous English try coming from that crossfield kick.

Crowd sounds up for it!

Handbags in the tunnel beforehand apparently!

Best of luck Scotland and England fans, hope its a great game

looking forwards to this. love hearing the scots sing. must pump both sets of players up.

game on!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Handbags in the tunnel beforehand apparently!

I am sure it wasn’t much, but I would’ve love to have seen that.

Decent start Scotland!

Hughes really is a monster in the contact.

Real intent from Scotland - need to keep this going as long as possible

nigel letting both teams contest hard at breakdown. fast ball is going to be at a premium

Laidlaw's passing a bit wayward!

I hate to say this but it really does hinge on Russell for Scotland today, he has started well but if he starts playing poorly, England will win at a canter.

I thought Watson released and had every right to try and turn over there...

Fair call on Watson - Ireland got away with that with a different ref. Refs can make a big difference!

Well there you go, intent being rewarded. Great stuff

GOAL!!!!

Yeeeeeees!

That was a strange penalty - you see that happen pretty much at every single box kick?

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was a strange penalty - you see that happen pretty much at every single box kick?

Correct by the letter of the law but very harsh. Owens will have to be incredibly consistent with that ruling now.

Another dive by Hogg. Good start for Scotland.

Huw Jones again: smart reactions to a wobbly bounce. Hardly one off the training pitch but I doubt Scotland will complain.

PS: can someone please educate a minority of supporters in the ground not to boo the away kicker, it ain't big and it ain't clever.

Silly from Gilchrist - they were going nowhere in their own 22

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was a strange penalty - you see that happen pretty much at every single box kick?

It's the problem with inconsistency of application with refereeing directives.

Blocking at box kicks has become a part of the game more and more which needs addressing but as is so often the case they are applied inconsistently.

As long as he's consistent all game I don't mind.

I hope the Scotland players fly into England blockers during box kicks!

England kicking away too much ball. Inviting too much pressure.

Powerful quick game this, great to watch.

Good Scottish scrum - fortune for Scotland with the knock on

Scotland's players should really stop appealing for everything. Pick and choose what to appeal for, Owens will ignore you if you appeal for everything.

England yet to hit their stride - can Scotland keep it up?

An interesting match up between two unbalanced back rows here.

The Scotland trio are hounding the ruck in defence.

Hughes on the other hand is showing what a bit of extra bulk can do in contact. Nicely for an England fan Hughes is applying this very well in fringe defence where Scotland have made a lot of yards.

Scotland back row are on top for me currently.

Gilchrist has started excellently for Scotland too.