England U20 team for JWC opener + Scotland U20 vs. South Africa U20

15 Ben Ransom Saracens
14 Andy Short Worcester Warriors
13 Elliot Daly London Wasps
12 Ryan Mills Gloucester Rugby
11 Jonathan Joseph London Irish

10 George Ford Leicester Tigers
9 Chris Cook Bath Rugby

1 Mako Vunipola Bristol Rugby
2 Mike Haywood Northampton Saints
3 Henry Thomas Sale Sharks
4 Joe Launchbury London Wasps
5 Charlie Matthews Harlequins
6 Matt Kvesic Worcester Warriors
7 Matt Everard Leicester Tigers
8 Alex Gray (C) Newcastle Falcons

Replacements
Player Club

16 Rob Buchanan Harlequins
17 Ryan Bower Leicester Tigers
18 Sam Twomey Harlequins
19 Sam Jones London Wasps
20 Dan Robson Gloucester Rugby
21 Owen Farrell Saracens
22 Marland Yarde London Irish


About the strongest team we could field give or take a Farrell or Tuilagi. . The pack is very strong with the likes of Henry Thomas, Mako Vunipola, Matt Kvesic and Joe Launchbury getting regular first team action. Players to watch for in the backline are George Ford who will organise things. Elliot Daly who is very, very good at this level and Ben Ransom who is an exciting strike runner.

The starting backline has a bit of first team experience in AP for their clubs too, with the likes of Joseph, Daly, Mills and Short (Championship) getting at least a little game time. Lets face it, if things don't work out, there is always a certain Mr Farrell on the bench!

I agree with the captain Alex Gray's assessment in that (give or take one or two positions) this is the best age grade team England have had for many years. I gather Ireland have a decent team too, so the opener could be a cracker.

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Aslongasbut100ofus

Rather than start a new thread, here are the teams for tonite's other encounter between Scotland and South Africa:

Scotland: S Hogg (Glasgow); S Atkin (Edinburgh Accies), M Bennett (Ayr), D Gilmour (Stirling County), G Bryce (Heriots); D Weir (Glasgow, capt), S Kennedy (Stirling County); A Allan (Loughborough University), D Cherry (Northumbria), C Phillips (Stewart's-Melville), M Todd (Nottingham), R McAlpine (West of Scotland), J Swanson (Boroughmuir), A Spence (Heriot's), J Tyas (Bath).
Subs: R Ferguson (Melrose), G Hunter (Glasgow Hawks), R Hislop (Edinburgh), M Eadie (Filton College), J Stevenson (Westcombe Park), K Gossman (Glasgow Hawks), H Watson (Leicester).

South Africa: U Beyers (Blue Bulls); T Mbovane (Western Province), P Jordaan (Sharks), F Venter (Blue Bulls), W Mjekevu (Golden Lions); J Goosen (Free State Cheetahs), P Rademan (Free State Cheetahs); N Schonert (Sharks), B Mbonambi (Blue Bulls), J Schoeman (Blue Bulls), E Etzebeth (Western Province), J Cook (Free State Cheetahs), S Kolisi (Western Province), F Kleinhans (Sharks), A Botha (Blue Bulls, capt).
Subs: M van Vuuren (Free State Cheetahs), J Roy Jenkinson (Leopards), R Venter (Golden Lions), C du Preez (Leopards), L Jacobs (Blue Bulls), J Welthagen (Leopards), C Barry (Western Province).

Two years ago, Scotland went down 72-3 to the same oppo, and last year only got worse with a whopping 73-0 defeat against RSA. Is there any hope for improvement this year? Well, the Scottish lads will lose out on physicality for sure, but there are glimmers of hope in the backline with Weir, Bennett and Hogg all good players with ball in hand. Hope its not a long evening for the boys in Padua thumbsup

Ireland have a a really good backline, which will mean little if our forwards don;t match up. The pack you have looks stronger than ours. Our backs are brilliant but that pack... I think that pack will win it for England.

That is a very strong pack, especially in the front row. Thomas at just 19 was the corner stone of a pretty solid Sale pack which is very impressive.

The backs looks good, but I think that if Ireland can keep this game away from the forward battles, we have a clear edge in the backs.

I don’t think you should underestimate this English backline; there have been times when English players rely on bulk rather than subtlety, not these guys. There is no little skill among them and if they are viewed as plodding donkeys or simply the finishing touch to a strong pack teams could come unstuck.

Saying that, I know next to nothing about the Irish team. Who should I look out for?

Ah, hang on. I'll look at the Irish team's thread.

Cumbrian,

I'm not underestimating them, just giving you an idea of how highly rated a lot of these guys are.

I don't think it's a stretch to say this is probably the most talented backline Ireland have ever fielded at underage level.

I see, I'll watch warily then!

You should, in the same way I'll watch your forwards, because if they get the upper hand, it doesn't really matter what our backs are like.

I wouldn't underestimate that England backline. Owen Farrell can only make the bench.

I think the reason Farrell is only on the bench is because the rest of the team have been training together longer.

I understand why Ford starts ahead of Farrell, and for me it's the right call. I'm not saying Ford is ready to do what Farrell has done in the premiership, but at this level he is special. I am surprised that they didn't shuffle Farrell over to 12 though, maybe it's a sign that England now see him as an out and out 10. Mills has more pace without doubt but I'm not sure he is quite ready for this level yet, I wasn't overly impressed with him in the 6Ns, although I think he will be a good asset next season.

I'm still a bit confused by the make up of the back row, I don't know why they didn't take a bigger unit with them to compliment the more pacey/silky skills of Gray and Kvesic. During the 6Ns I really felt they lacked a go-to ball carrier to make some hard yards when necessary and retain possession.

Other than those two small quibbles, I'm delighted with the side. It's the same starting 15 and 4 of the 7 reserves that went down to Athlone, and that consistency in itself is impressive and will stand this side in good stead.

Cumbrian,

The players to look out for are Marshal at inside centre, Gilroy at full back, Conway on the wing and Annett at hooker.

Montague Withnail wrote:I understand why Ford starts ahead of Farrell, and for me it's the right call. I'm not saying Ford is ready to do what Farrell has done in the premiership, but at this level he is special. I am surprised that they didn't shuffle Farrell over to 12 though, maybe it's a sign that England now see him as an out and out 10. Mills has more pace without doubt but I'm not sure he is quite ready for this level yet, I wasn't overly impressed with him in the 6Ns, although I think he will be a good asset next season.

I'm still a bit confused by the make up of the back row, I don't know why they didn't take a bigger unit with them to compliment the more pacey/silky skills of Gray and Kvesic. During the 6Ns I really felt they lacked a go-to ball carrier to make some hard yards when necessary and retain possession.

Other than those two small quibbles, I'm delighted with the side. It's the same starting 15 and 4 of the 7 reserves that went down to Athlone, and that consistency in itself is impressive and will stand this side in good stead.

With Farrell it might be a case of trying to minimise his use since he's played a lot of senior games this season up to the Premiership final - the experience might benefit others more and it gives Farrell a bit more rest.

With you on the lack of a ball carrier in the back row, there are three decent players there but no one to bosh forwards with the ball when it is needed.

It does look like the front five are going to have to get through some work around the pitch to compensate. It's a good think that that is exactly the forte of players like Launchbury, Matthews and Thomas. What I will say about the backrow is that they have a very good forager in Everard and a decent one in Kvesic. They really get in over the ball and win turnovers.

Montague Withnail wrote:I understand why Ford starts ahead of Farrell, and for me it's the right call. I'm not saying Ford is ready to do what Farrell has done in the premiership, but at this level he is special. I am surprised that they didn't shuffle Farrell over to 12 though, maybe it's a sign that England now see him as an out and out 10. Mills has more pace without doubt but I'm not sure he is quite ready for this level yet, I wasn't overly impressed with him in the 6Ns, although I think he will be a good asset next season.

I'm still a bit confused by the make up of the back row, I don't know why they didn't take a bigger unit with them to compliment the more pacey/silky skills of Gray and Kvesic. During the 6Ns I really felt they lacked a go-to ball carrier to make some hard yards when necessary and retain possession.

Other than those two small quibbles, I'm delighted with the side. It's the same starting 15 and 4 of the 7 reserves that went down to Athlone, and that consistency in itself is impressive and will stand this side in good stead.

Billy Vunipola is the lump your looking for

Lots of reports make a big deal out of the physical size of the English pack. Is it really that massive? If it's a good thing, why aren't other unions catching up?

Maybe, or Ollie Steadman. Actually although Billy is a hell of a ball carrier, I'm not sure I would put him in the "solid platform" category. He still has a tendency for one offload too many, but he will be a force of nature next season at 8.

greybeard wrote:Lots of reports make a big deal out of the physical size of the English pack. Is it really that massive? If it's a good thing, why aren't other unions catching up?

Most of the pack isn't - they have a huge unit in Vunipola who is about three stone heavier than his opposite number but also very mobile as well and two locks who are about a stone heavier than their opposite numbers.
As for if it is a good thing - it is nice to win at this level and having a huge pack is going to help with that but it is more about getting the players ready for senior level so the important thing is to select players who are expected to cut it at that level, not just big lumps who're never going to make it.

The way people go on about the size of the English pack really annoys me because there is always an undercurrent that they win due to size rather than the skill. I admit that they do have some big players but they aren’t THAT much bigger than their opponents. Take the first game for instance, compare the two team’s respective profiles (Taken from the respective unions) and look at how they compare. Okay take out Mako Vunipola who is a monster and the English players aren’t SO much bigger. The way people go on sometimes, you’d think England have a front 8 of fumbling orcs only able to HULK SMASH!!! Their way though teams.

1. Mako Vunipola(5ft 11in & 20st 6lb) vs. James Tracey (6ft 0in & 16st 7lb)
2. Mike Haywood (5ft 11in & 15st 10lb) vs. Niall Annett (6ft 0in & 16st 0lb)
3. Henry Thomas (6ft 2in & 17st 4lb) vs. Tadhg Furlong (6ft 0in & 18st 2lb)
4. Joe Launch bury (6ft 6in & 18st 1lb )vs. Michael Kearney (6ft 6in & 16st 9lb)
5. Charlie Matthews* (18st 3lb )vs. Iain Henderson (6ft 6in & 17st 2lb)
6. Matt Kvesic (6ft 1in & 15st 8lb) vs. Jordi Murphy (6ft 0in & 16st 3lb)
7. Matt Everard (6ft 1in & 15st 6lb) vs. Dominic Gallagher (6ft 0in & 14st 9lb)
8. Alex Gray (6ft 5in & 16st 5lb) vs. Eoin McKeon (6ft 2in & 15st 12lb)

* I’ve gone with Matthews ‘Quins profile because I have seen him in real life and there is no way the lad is 18st 12lb as quoted on the England website.

That's pretty much an identical England side to the 6Ns one that beat Ireland 15-46 in Ireland a few months ago (probably another reason why Farrell is on the bench). The Irish side is significantly different though.

Cumbrian

Would it be cheeky to see if you could post the respective stats on the backs as well?

Standulstermen
Here are the weights in kg -

England -
15 Ben Ransom Saracens 82
14 Andy Short Worcester Warriors 93
13 Elliot Daly London Wasps 94
12 Ryan Mills Gloucester Rugby 92
11 Jonathan Joseph London Irish 90

10 George Ford Leicester Tigers 80
9 Chris Cook Bath Rugby 90


Ireland -
15 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster) 90
14 - Andrew Conway (Blackrock/Leinster) 89
13 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster) 96
12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster) 93
11 - Andrew Boyle (UCD/Leinster) 91

10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 84
9 - Kieran Marmion (UWIC/Exile) 78

funnily enough, the two back lines are the same weight as each other

Many thanks snoop

Nah, I’m a complete sodding melvin at this point! Although in my defence, I am killing time waiting for my girlfriend to finish her evening course and to pick up our dinner (Chinese, get in!).


9. Chris Cook (5ft 10in 14st 2lb) vs. Kieran Marmion (5ft 7in & 10st 6lb)
10. George Ford (5ft 9in & 12st 9lb) vs. -Paddy Jackson (5ft 10in & 13st 3lb)
11. Jon Joseph (5ft 11in & 14st 2lb) vs. Andrew Boyle (5ft 11in & 14st 4lb)
12. Ryan Mills (6ft 0in & 14st 6lb) vs. Luke Marshall (5ft 11in & 14st 11lb)
13. Elliot Daly (6ft 0in & 14st 6lb) vs. Brendan Macken (6ft 2in & 15st 1lb)
14. Andy Short (6ft 1in & 14st 9lb) vs. Andrew Conway (6ft 0in & 14st 2lb)
15. Ben Ransom (5ft 11in & 12st 12lb) vs. Craig Gilroy (6ft 0in 14st 2lb)

Fairly evenly matched I would say.

Jesus, I might just give it up and change my name to 'Sad Act' via deed-poll

Even though Luke Marshall is well filled out, he does not play that way. He's a second five eighth type player who will take a lot of the pressure of Jackson.

Cumbrian wrote:Nah, I’m a complete sodding melvin at this point! Although in my defence, I am killing time waiting for my girlfriend to finish her evening course and to pick up our dinner (Chinese, get in!).


9. Chris Cook (5ft 10in 14st 2lb) vs. Kieran Marmion (5ft 7in & 10st 6lb)
10. George Ford (5ft 9in & 12st 9lb) vs. -Paddy Jackson (5ft 10in & 13st 3lb)
11. Jon Joseph (5ft 11in & 14st 2lb) vs. Andrew Boyle (5ft 11in & 14st 4lb)
12. Ryan Mills (6ft 0in & 14st 6lb) vs. Luke Marshall (5ft 11in & 14st 11lb)
13. Elliot Daly (6ft 0in & 14st 6lb) vs. Brendan Macken (6ft 2in & 15st 1lb)
14. Andy Short (6ft 1in & 14st 9lb) vs. Andrew Conway (6ft 0in & 14st 2lb)
15. Ben Ransom (5ft 11in & 12st 12lb) vs. Craig Gilroy (6ft 0in 14st 2lb)

Fairly evenly matched I would say.

Cheers

I'm really looking forward to putting the names to the faces. I really enjoy age grade rugby because I used to help train youngsters when I lived in the deepest darkest northwest. It is really rewarding to see players go onto better things and know you played a tiny part in it.

Obviously its not all down to size!

The "big" difference is that England can pick forward players who are both big AND experienced because they have a large pool to choose from. Ireland just don't have the same numbers to pick from and so lean towards just picking the biggest grunt they can. I don't think any of Ireland's front five (or bench cover) have any ML experience?

BTW the Ireland boys also seem to have both height and weight exaggerated!

The Great Aukster wrote:Obviously its not all down to size!

The "big" difference is that England can pick forward players who are both big AND experienced because they have a large pool to choose from. Ireland just don't have the same numbers to pick from and so lean towards just picking the biggest grunt they can. I don't think any of Ireland's front five (or bench cover) have any ML experience?

BTW the Ireland boys also seem to have both height and weight exaggerated!

I wouldn't doubt it. The same with the English players. I've been to a number of U20 games and know most of the English players fairly well by sight and some of the descriptions are way off. In my estimation, you can take a stone off most of the English forwards. It's a strange phenomenon in that some countries like to overestimate the size of their players, whilst others like to underestimate. England frequently fall in to the former, whilst Wales for instance, often fall into the latter.

The Great Aukster wrote:Obviously its not all down to size!

The "big" difference is that England can pick forward players who are both big AND experienced because they have a large pool to choose from. Ireland just don't have the same numbers to pick from and so lean towards just picking the biggest grunt they can. I don't think any of Ireland's front five (or bench cover) have any ML experience?

BTW the Ireland boys also seem to have both height and weight exaggerated!

That is quite a contradiction to what a lot of people will say. Various internet philosophers have forwarded the idea that the AP so jam packed with foreign players that it stunts the growth of the English players. I remember various articles on the old 606 saying that English youngsters don’t reach the very top because we don’t know how to nurture them. It was very hard to argue with at the time. That was of course was just before the likes of Lawes, Wood, Youngs, Flood and Ashton came to prominence.

I'm not accusing you of this, but some people want it both ways.

The AP is choc full of foreigners so that our youth can't get a chance BUT when it comes to the JWC we have the most experienced players to pick from and are at an advantage.

Cumbrian, I think if you go back 4 or 5 years there was some truth in that jibe, young English players were struggling to get game time, even the very best of them.

The speed at which that has changed has been quite remarkable. To be honest I don't know what caused it, but I suspect a combination between higher quality youngsters coming through and less money to pay for foreigners, especially around late 2008 when the value of the UK Pound fell massively against the Euro and Aussie Dollar.

People who are still trotting it out today, and you do still get them, are clearly ignorant of the real situation, and just falling back on the same old stereotypes that they know and love so well.

Montague Withnail wrote:Cumbrian, I think if you go back 4 or 5 years there was some truth in that jibe, young English players were struggling to get game time, even the very best of them.

The speed at which that has changed has been quite remarkable. To be honest I don't know what caused it,

Rob Andrew?

Montague Withnail wrote:but I suspect a combination between higher quality youngsters coming through and less money to pay for foreigners, especially around late 2008 when the value of the UK Pound fell massively against the Euro and Aussie Dollar.

People who are still trotting it out today, and you do still get them, are clearly ignorant of the real situation, and just falling back on the same old stereotypes that they know and love so well.

Montague Withnail wrote:Cumbrian, I think if you go back 4 or 5 years there was some truth in that jibe, young English players were struggling to get game time, even the very best of them.

The speed at which that has changed has been quite remarkable. To be honest I don't know what caused it, but I suspect a combination between higher quality youngsters coming through and less money to pay for foreigners, especially around late 2008 when the value of the UK Pound fell massively against the Euro and Aussie Dollar.

People who are still trotting it out today, and you do still get them, are clearly ignorant of the real situation, and just falling back on the same old stereotypes that they know and love so well.

One of the the biggest contributing factor to this in my opinion is the success of the academy system. It was only instituted in 2001. So if we look at the player output (the under 20 teams) after say four/five years to account for teething problems etc you start to see it baring fruit. The 2005/2006/2007 u20 teams contained players like Croft, Foden, Hartley, Flood, Haskell, Robshaw, Cole, Attwood and Care. It is then supplemented in the ensuing years with the likes of Ben Youngs and Courtney Lawes who came through.

Also if you look at the squads, the level of players in general are improving. The players are staying around the AAP as opposed to the the players from the U21 teams prior to this, where a lot of the players sank like stones.


2002
http://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/news/4739.php

2003
http://www.gloucesterrugby.co.uk/2215.php

vs.

2005:
http://www.rfu.com/News/2005/May/News%20Articles/ArgentinaCallUpForEnglandU21Hopefuls

2006:
http://www.rfu.com/News/2006/May/News%20Articles/EnglandU21SquadForIrbU21WorldChampionships

2007:
http://www.bathrugby.com/news/6551.php

2008:
http://www.wru.co.uk/18123.php

Rather than start a new thread, here are the teams for tonite's other encounter between Scotland and South Africa:

Scotland: S Hogg (Glasgow); S Atkin (Edinburgh Accies), M Bennett (Ayr), D Gilmour (Stirling County), G Bryce (Heriots); D Weir (Glasgow, capt), S Kennedy (Stirling County); A Allan (Loughborough University), D Cherry (Northumbria), C Phillips (Stewart's-Melville), M Todd (Nottingham), R McAlpine (West of Scotland), J Swanson (Boroughmuir), A Spence (Heriot's), J Tyas (Bath).
Subs: R Ferguson (Melrose), G Hunter (Glasgow Hawks), R Hislop (Edinburgh), M Eadie (Filton College), J Stevenson (Westcombe Park), K Gossman (Glasgow Hawks), H Watson (Leicester).

South Africa: U Beyers (Blue Bulls); T Mbovane (Western Province), P Jordaan (Sharks), F Venter (Blue Bulls), W Mjekevu (Golden Lions); J Goosen (Free State Cheetahs), P Rademan (Free State Cheetahs); N Schonert (Sharks), B Mbonambi (Blue Bulls), J Schoeman (Blue Bulls), E Etzebeth (Western Province), J Cook (Free State Cheetahs), S Kolisi (Western Province), F Kleinhans (Sharks), A Botha (Blue Bulls, capt).
Subs: M van Vuuren (Free State Cheetahs), J Roy Jenkinson (Leopards), R Venter (Golden Lions), C du Preez (Leopards), L Jacobs (Blue Bulls), J Welthagen (Leopards), C Barry (Western Province).

Two years ago, Scotland went down 72-3 to the same oppo, and last year only got worse with a whopping 73-0 defeat against RSA. Is there any hope for improvement this year? Well, the Scottish lads will lose out on physicality for sure, but there are glimmers of hope in the backline with Weir, Bennett and Hogg all good players with ball in hand. Hope its not a long evening for the boys in Padua

I’ve only encountered one of those Scottish players, being tucked down here in the South West and that is James Tyas. He has performed pretty well in the games I have seen down at the wRECk for Bath United, He strikes me as tough tackling and decent carrying flanker, has a lot of promise as far as I can see.

Cumbrian wrote:I’ve only encountered one of those Scottish players, being tucked down here in the South West and that is James Tyas. He has performed pretty well in the games I have seen down at the wRECk for Bath United, He strikes me as tough tackling and decent carrying flanker, has a lot of promise as far as I can see.

That's good to know, Cumbrian, altho I think the Scottish pack will struggle to compete and our backs will have to live off scraps - for us, its all about avoiding relegation from the 12

It's a damn tough opener, but I'm hoping the Scraps our backline to get will be improvised into try scoring oppertunities.

Bennet and Weir will be the ones to watch out for. Looking forward to the game, Just hoping it's not a horror show.

Montague Withnail wrote:Cumbrian, I think if you go back 4 or 5 years there was some truth in that jibe, young English players were struggling to get game time, even the very best of them.

The speed at which that has changed has been quite remarkable. To be honest I don't know what caused it, but I suspect a combination between higher quality youngsters coming through and less money to pay for foreigners, especially around late 2008 when the value of the UK Pound fell massively against the Euro and Aussie Dollar.

People who are still trotting it out today, and you do still get them, are clearly ignorant of the real situation, and just falling back on the same old stereotypes that they know and love so well.

I think there are a lot of factors including -
Other clubs finally learnt their lesson from Tigers and Wasps - those two teams had the most sustained success and both built it on a core of home grown players while teams like Saints tried to build a core of non-English players and ended up relegated.
The RFU realising the importance of youth development.
The 2003 World Cup, which is also something that worries me, was won 8 years ago. The good young players (18-24) now are the right age to have been inspired to get into rugby by that massive victory (they'd have been around 10-16 then). I do fear a drop off as success hasn't been sustained.

Ford - zero game time this season.
Farrell - I think you can see where this is going....

Decision? Let's play the man who's done nothing all year and sneaked back to the club who gave him his chance with his tail firmly between his legs.....
Strange.

bathmad wrote:Ford - zero game time this season.
Farrell - I think you can see where this is going....

Decision? Let's play the man who's done nothing all year and sneaked back to the club who gave him his chance with his tail firmly between his legs.....
Strange.

Wrong Ford brother. This is the more talented, younger one at Tigers who has only just turned 18 and is held in very high regard at the club (enough for him to have been picked for the first team while just 16) and country (he was playing for the Under 20s at 17, as he played for the Under 18s when he was 15)

You've got to remember that there are a lot of games over a short period of time, it's a four day turn around I think. All squad players MUST at least start one game too. Add in that Farrell has had a long hard season, it begins to start to sound less daft.

George Ford won three MotM awards shepherding England to a 6N grandslam, replacing him with Farrell would be extremely harsh.

Farrell's appearances for the U20s have been at IC, so you could argue he should be in there for Mills, but again, more than a little unfair on Mills who started all but one of the 6N games.

There's a lot to be said for sticking with and backing a team that knows each other well (a big advantage over many other squads) and won the 6N, especially when it allows you to bring in serious impact at either 10/12 and keep two of your best players fresh for what will be a tough tournament.