Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What the evidence is doesn't change the conclusions a jury can reach, maybe you could learn that rather than attacking me without having a clue once again what you are talking about. These are pretty basic things in any society that you seem unable to grasp

OK marty, so you think the boys are guilty ?

I don't, because the court said they were not. I say, lets move on from this, let the boys live their lives, and let them play rugby.

So pointing out what a jury's job is and you reach that conclusion?

I never offered my view on guilt or innocence and you won't find me doing so either

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What the evidence is doesn't change the conclusions a jury can reach, maybe you could learn that rather than attacking me without having a clue once again what you are talking about. These are pretty basic things in any society that you seem unable to grasp

OK marty, so you think the boys are guilty ?

I don't, because the court said they were not. I say, lets move on from this, let the boys live their lives, and let them play rugby.

So pointing out what a jury's job is and you reach that conclusion?

I never offered my view on guilt or innocence and you won't find me doing so either

So why are you arguing with me for then ?

I just want them to be able to play for Ulster without discrimination.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Not your place to judge someone for having a one night stand Sin.

I'm not judging them for that.

What are you judging them on then?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What the evidence is doesn't change the conclusions a jury can reach, maybe you could learn that rather than attacking me without having a clue once again what you are talking about. These are pretty basic things in any society that you seem unable to grasp

OK marty, so you think the boys are guilty ?

I don't, because the court said they were not. I say, lets move on from this, let the boys live their lives, and let them play rugby.

Once again, all the jury decided was that they had a reasonable doubt that they were guilty. They did not declare that they were innocent.

Protests in Dublin, Belfast, Limerick, Galway & Cork today about the treatment of the complainant in the trial.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ibelieveher-rallies-taking-place-nationwide-in-aftermath-of-belfast-r***-trial-834804.html

If you aren't guilty then you are by default innocent.

The protests are absolute nonsense. Hoards of morons with more time than sense. The judge confirmed during the trial that the jury were party to information that would not be released to the public and yet these idiots believe they know exactly what happened. The mind boggles.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Not your place to judge someone for having a one night stand Sin.

I'm not judging them for that.

What are you judging them on then?

On their calious attitude to a teenager and their arrogant attitude to her the next day. These are not good role models.

Collapse2005 wrote:If you aren't guilty then you are by default innocent.

The protests are absolute nonsense. Hoards of morons with more time than sense. The judge confirmed during the trial that the jury were party to information that would not be released to the public and yet these idiots believe they know exactly what happened. The mind boggles.

Why wasn't it released to the public? Isn't the reason a trial is public is so that justice is seen to be done?

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Not your place to judge someone for having a one night stand Sin.

I'm not judging them for that.

What are you judging them on then?

On their calious attitude to a teenager and their arrogant attitude to her the next day. These are not good role models.

No, they are not, and we all agree with you over this. But for some reason, you just have another agenda, why don't you come clean and tell us all what you are really upset about because non of us would argue with you over what you have said above.

I think Sin é has a bigger issue with the UK judicial system than anything else.

Has that upset you ?

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What the evidence is doesn't change the conclusions a jury can reach, maybe you could learn that rather than attacking me without having a clue once again what you are talking about. These are pretty basic things in any society that you seem unable to grasp

OK marty, so you think the boys are guilty ?

I don't, because the court said they were not. I say, lets move on from this, let the boys live their lives, and let them play rugby.

Once again, all the jury decided was that they had a reasonable doubt that they were guilty. They did not declare that they were innocent.

Protests in Dublin, Belfast, Limerick, Galway & Cork today about the treatment of the complainant in the trial.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ibelieveher-rallies-taking-place-nationwide-in-aftermath-of-belfast-r***-trial-834804.html

Going through that can't be easy but without enough knowledge of the alternatives, I'm not sure how things can be changed without compromising a fair trial.

Why is it that r*** victims are being singled out when people who go through other violent crimes have to relive their experiences in court too? It's not an easy experience and it's daunting sitting up there

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Not your place to judge someone for having a one night stand Sin.

I'm not judging them for that.

What are you judging them on then?

On their calious attitude to a teenager and their arrogant attitude to her the next day. These are not good role models.

What is the difference between what they did and what Zebo and Murray did. In that case they took photos of a naked girl that they slept with and made he hold up a sign which said Up Cork?

I agree that the messages in the Ulster case were nasty but they weren't intended for public consumption so I think it is unfair to judge them accordingly.

I don't think you can make assumptions on their attitude to her other than that if you weren't there.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What the evidence is doesn't change the conclusions a jury can reach, maybe you could learn that rather than attacking me without having a clue once again what you are talking about. These are pretty basic things in any society that you seem unable to grasp

OK marty, so you think the boys are guilty ?

I don't, because the court said they were not. I say, lets move on from this, let the boys live their lives, and let them play rugby.

So pointing out what a jury's job is and you reach that conclusion?

I never offered my view on guilt or innocence and you won't find me doing so either

So why are you arguing with me for then ?

I just want them to be able to play for Ulster without discrimination.

You mean other than the fact you've said what did she expect? Telling everyone else what the jury concluded and to go look over the evidence? Maybe if you learned to get your facts straight rather than telling those that have to get theirs together

marty2086 wrote:You mean other than the fact you've said what did she expect? Telling everyone else what the jury concluded and to go look over the evidence? Maybe if you learned to get your facts straight rather than telling those that have to get theirs together Rolling Eyes

marty, your hard work, you really are.

I am getting my facts right, I am taking my stance from what I have read. Going by your stance, it is quite obvious you have not read everything properly. It was not as simple as the guys asking her to come back for a coffee. Read all the evidence, then make your own conclusions up. Rather than just trying to find ways of arguing with me.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Not your place to judge someone for having a one night stand Sin.

I'm not judging them for that.

What are you judging them on then?

On their calious attitude to a teenager and their arrogant attitude to her the next day. These are not good role models.

What is the difference between what they did and what Zebo and Murray did. In that case they took photos of a naked girl that they slept with and made he hold up a sign which said Up Cork?

I agree that the messages in the Ulster case were nasty but they weren't intended for public consumption so I think it is unfair to judge them accordingly.

I don't think you can make assumptions on their attitude to her other than that if you weren't there.

The woman involved wasn't a teenager. I don't think either Murray or Zebo were the ones who made the movie and didn't post it on social media (think it was one of their AIL pals who did that). And of course, there was no question about consent.

And talking about consent - part of the defence was that the girl was ashamed about what happened so she decided to go to the PSNI. Most people would decide not to go ahead with something like that if they were in any doubt. Some people claim that she was doing it for the fame of having shagged two rugby players (despite her remaining anomymous).

Good man rdw. We have a QF to discuss here. Team should be out soon

Ulster A team to play Bedford Blues, Saturday 31st March at Goldington Road, 3.00pm:

(1-8): Tommy O'Hagan, Adam McBurney, Ross Kane (Capt), Matthew Dalton, Peter Browne, Marcus Rea, Clive Ross, Greg Jones;
(9-15): David Shanahan, Peter Nelson, Aaron Cairns, Angus Curtis, Callum Patterson, Angus Kernohan, Jack Owens.

Replacements: Alexander Clarke, Eric O'Sullivan, Tom O'Toole, Jack Regan, Matthew Agnew, Jonny Stewart, James Hume.

Feel for O'Toole and Agnew but a decent team. Good to see Curtis in there and Hume back

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43597065

Will Addison joins next season.

Standulstermen wrote:Good man rdw. We have a QF to discuss here. Team should be out soon

Have to admit when you said a quarter final to discuss I was thinking what are you on about then I remembered the B and I cup lol

We needed centre help for next year so getting someone Irish qualified who has already played in a top league like Addison fits the bill nicely

Dont know much about Addison hope Sale fans are sad to see him go thats usially a good sign.

He was/is captain which will hopefully make a impact on the Ulster (lack of) leadership group

You have to fancy the IRFU had some say in this. I don't see us offering massively more money than Sale so there needs to be some pull. He'd be a fool to come over with just Ulster's assurance that he has a shot at an International berth, but if Joe said he was in the market for a proper utility back then he might have a realistic shot at an Ireland 23. A younger Earls in that respect.

He won't be getting making the first XV though unless there's a significant change in fortunes. Ireland are always going to stick with Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose and now Farrell. Unless the rumours of Henshaw to fullback prove true .........

Not rugby related, but puts a face to the name. Seems like a decent fella.



Hope his defence is better than against those pigs...

Reading up and Sale supporters are sorry to see him go (which is good) but mention he is injury prone (not so good).

Cooney was injury prone at a time too though so who knows

Seen him play at Sale a few times and IMO I thought he looked a really good player. A very good addition to ulster.

Coulson let go by Connacht, seamed a solid LH would be improve our strenght in depth?

Kingshu wrote:Coulson let go by Connacht, seamed a solid LH would be improve our strenght in depth?

Maybe, not sure his signing would go down well in the current climate though

Indeed. I think that'd be throwing petrol on the fire.

Kingshu wrote:Reading up and Sale supporters are sorry  to see him go (which is good) but mention he is injury prone (not so good).

From what I've heard he's been more unlucky rather than injury prone ( in my mind injury prone is the same injurys more than once) broken jaw is pretty unlucky

Arnold and Farrell could be Munster's starting centre pair soon. Meanwhile we are bringing in players from Sale who are IQ through lineage. It's more disastrous squad management.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Arnold and Farrell could be Munster's starting centre pair soon.  Meanwhile we are bringing in players from Sale who are IQ through lineage.  It's more disastrous squad management.

It is depressing.

For both Farrell and Arnold they've left where they live and moved to another country to better themselves. That takes them out of their comfort zone. Also they've probably had considerably better coaching elsewhere. Some combination of those two factors sees them ahead of the Ulster lads.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Arnold and Farrell could be Munster's starting centre pair soon.  Meanwhile we are bringing in players from Sale who are IQ through lineage.  It's more disastrous squad management.

Sorry but what does one have to do with the other? Both left looking for opportunities and got them, playing in a team that's going well Im sure is a big help to them.

Both left while we had an abundance of centres, you can't stockpile players just in case and both wanted to leave. Not sure what else you can do about it

marty2086 wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Arnold and Farrell could be Munster's starting centre pair soon.  Meanwhile we are bringing in players from Sale who are IQ through lineage.  It's more disastrous squad management.

Sorry but what does one have to do with the other? Both left looking for opportunities and got them, playing in a team that's going well Im sure is a big help to them.

Both left while we had an abundance of centres, you can't stockpile players just in case and both wanted to leave. Not sure what else you can do about it

No you can't but we have a lot of form for making poor choices. We lost quality backrowers in favour of the likes of Ali Birch, guys like Sean Dougall. We lost Tommy Seymour who is a star on the wing for Glasgow and Scotland. We've had Louis Ludik, a fullback we brought in from the French second division playing 13 for us repeatedly under Kiss whilst Farrell is winning 6N man of the match awards. You can always argue that glory of hind sight, but we are seriously Poopie at who we keep and who we let go.

We've also been hugely unlucky with injuries too, if you look at some of the players that were ahead of some of the players that kicked on elsewhere.

Dougall didn't go straight to Munster, he went to Rotherham, then when he went to Munster as 3rd or 4th choice and got a run through injuries and did well. Seymour had plenty ahead of him too. The loss of Nevin, Payne and Oldings unavailability and injuries have made losing Farrell look bad in hindsight.

It would be great to keep hold of everyone but how many players have we let go and they haven't gotten beyond the Championship?

Leinster let guys like Conway and Beirne go, Im sure they'd have preferred to keep them in hindsight but you make the decisions based on what you see in front of you. Some work some don't but we definitely need to do better

Sorry lads did you see Arnold today. It’s what playing for Munster does to you. He will be speaking in a cork accent soon (a limerick one would be a step too far) and singing rebel songs.

Sure his Granda was from Cork , and he already knew all the songs but didn't dare sing them at Ravenhill.

Tough as nails aukster. One of my favourite players was paddy johns cos you might hurt him but he was always going to hurt you more. Arnold’s like that. Never give in.

Paddy Johns played so hard he had to become a dentist - Arnolds so hard he jumps in a nutribullet every night to stop him tearing the sheets.

Arnold looked excellent and its great to see him deliver but in terms of blaming Ulster for letting him go i dont think it holds up.

Farrell openly wanted to leave and his experience in france made him the player he is. Arnold i believe was a bit of a trade off with the IRFU. Looks bad because Olding hasnt been fit or available and McCloskey and Marshall look jaded behind a powder puff pack. perhaps we should have let Cave go instead of Arnold but at that stage only payne would have been over 25.

Seymour has come on wonders under Townsend but Gilroy looked far more impressive at a young age and we had trimble and bowe in tandem. He chose to go. Cant blame him or ulster. we have ballsed about Nelson who might have made a decent back three player but is a wasted shirt now imo.

Ulster can not be blamed for either Arnold or Farrell going.

Farrell was poor, was offered a contract but didn't fancy the competition from Marshall, Olding and the then up and coming McCloskey
When Arnold left he was, on merit, 6th choice centre at Ulster
I still think his natural ability is way behinds Marshall and McCloskey

The difference is the Munster forwards go forwards, the Ulster ones go backwards.
The Ulster backs are poorly coached - Peel is a dud
Ulster have had a very good stand in 10 for a half a season but the position as a whole is a mess
No adequate cover at 9 with any experience - Marshall and Shanahan not good enough
Solve those problems and the centres we have will shine

Allison is a decent cover but no more than that
Overall a good signing, particularly given our lack of 12/13 cover next year

Seymour was never ever going to be retained once he decided to seek a Scottish cap.
Even now if he wanted to come back I reckon we would say no - far more important requirements re NIQ spots

One thing I would like to address is the Roger Wilson reference from Facebook

What a load of utter nonsense and for 3 reasons:

1 - most obviously Roger Wilson is not a member of Ulster rugby and as such they arte not responsible for his actions
2 - he was wearing a blazer so what, he was given plenty in his time. I further note the claim the others were also Ulster
    players was they were also wearing Ulster blazers. Roger Wilson would have been given a number of blazers over the years and my
    guess he passed these to his mates in order to get into some night club or other. This is further backup by the fact the  
    others 'players'  weren't, or couldn't, be named - because they weren't players ?
3 - Lastly, and the slum dunk for me; which players would go out with him.
    Those of a similar age - Best, Bowe, Trimble, like me, consider Wilson a complete bumhole and would not be seen dead in his
    company. I reckon the same could be said of those slightly younger - Henry and P.Marshall.
     Would players 10 - 15 years younger go out with him - NO

So calling it now as a complete NON story.
I don't believe for one moment any current Ulster player was anywhere near the incident

What is disturbing is the slanderous/libellous nature of comments on social media in this and in the far more serious incident of the trial.

Mob rule by the ill informed, spiteful and stupid.

geoff999rugby wrote:What is disturbing is the slanderous/libellous nature of comments on social media in this and in the far more serious incident of the trial.

Mob rule by the ill informed, spiteful and stupid.  

It's getting worse too, as predicted the #IBelieveHer mob are planning a protest at Ravenhill

Happily 100% of these petitioners and hashtaggers disappear after no more than a few moments. Even they eventually realise that nobody cares about their constant need to feel offended and in fact most people find it difficult to take anything seriously if it's preceded by a hashtag. The facebook crowd are trying to demonise Ulster rugby and wider rugby in general because of the court case, let them fire away, they hold about as much credibility as the #ifeeloffended cretins.

Some may be provoked too by Jacksons legal team threatening legal action against some of the social media posters, while right in trying to clear his name it may not have been the best PR move

The hearing on April 25th to challenge the reporting restrictions on the case could be crucial to how things go in the future

The bakebook and hashtag glitterati will have forgotten what they were offended by in a few weeks/months, their memories only last as long as the last headline. It's clear from a lot of their comments that many of them know very few facts about the court case and fewer still about Ulster rugby.

Problem is Pete, the media have a different angle to report everyday. The CG texts are the focus of a story today and the culture at Ulster is being brought up, not great for the clubs image.

The rumour and innuendo that both sides of the argument go in for are muddying the water and entrenching positions and the number of people I've heard discussing the case and the snippets they've heard from someone, who heard it from someone else, is dangerous and all participants are being condemned by a dangerous game of Chinese whispers.

With the hearing, there'll be more reporting, if the restrictions are lifted it will give the story more oxygen but hopefully it'll shed some light to those who think they are in full possession of the facts

geoff999rugby wrote:One thing I would like to address is the Roger Wilson reference from Facebook

What a load of utter nonsense and for 3 reasons:

1 - most obviously Roger Wilson is not a member of Ulster rugby and as such they arte not responsible for his actions
2 - he was wearing a blazer so what, he was given plenty in his time. I further note the claim the others were also Ulster
    players was they were also wearing Ulster blazers. Roger Wilson would have been given a number of blazers over the years and my
    guess he passed these to his mates in order to get into some night club or other. This is further backup by the fact the  
    others 'players'  weren't, or couldn't, be named - because they weren't players ?
3 - Lastly, and the slum dunk for me; which players would go out with him.
    Those of a similar age - Best, Bowe, Trimble, like me, consider Wilson a complete bumhole and would not be seen dead in his
    company. I reckon the same could be said of those slightly younger - Henry and P.Marshall.
     Would players 10 - 15 years younger go out with him - NO

So calling it now as a complete NON story.
I don't believe for one moment any current Ulster player was anywhere near the incident

The facebook entry says they were three men from Instonians RFC, wearing their club blazers etc. - nothing to do with Ulster Rugby

According to Bryn, Addison is a lot more than cover, and as a friend of Dwayne Peel he will be a first choice starter.
Darren Cave is now no more than cover, and with Payne & Olding probably out of the picture, suddenly Ulster are light in midfield.
The supposed cover - Callum Patterson is actually older than Addison, hasn't played for Ulster in a serious game and doesn't really look as though he ever will.

This lack of senior exposure must be soul destroying for aspiring players as they can't develop without it. When he was at Ulster Chris Farrell looked poor because he repeatedly made bad decisions and as a result was only a break glass option. This was probably because in schools rugby he was the big lawd who was coached NOT to pass the ball, but run over defences instead. Going to France was the best decision he could have made to learn how to play when defences hit back.