Ulster Rugby 2017-18

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

Farrell and Arnold have not, significantly, improved and continue to be behind Marshall and McCloskey
Arnold was 6th choice centre last year at Ulster - he is still inferior to the other 5
(albeit Olding and Payne not playing these days)
When your team is in a mess you have to be a lot better than the alternatives

I'll be honest and state their is a hierarchy in Irish rugby
Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht

If in doubt Joe defaults to the team to the left in the list

He also had the option of pulling in Gilroy and moving Earls to 13. Given that Gilroy is on fire at the moment that could have worked.

The reality is he plays favourites. Stockdale, like Bowe and Trimble before him, is a favourite. Gilory, McCloskey, Cave are not.

Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

marty2086 wrote:Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

He's a good player,

carpet baboon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

He's a good player,

Im thinking its bu!!$h!t though, Les wasn't in charge of recruitment and if his position was precarious Logan and Bryn were hardly going to allow him to recruit players

Agreed. Doesn't stack up. When Les left I'm sure I saw the papers saying it had been agreed months before but all parties had to wait till Nucifora was back.

marty2086 wrote:Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

Quade: "....and man, it was like a ....like maybe a fiery planet coming in and hitting the beach right where I was surfing dude!  It was just like.............. it was crazy, man."

Kiss:  "Yes but........................ but I'm, I'm trying to talk about you coming over to Ulster............."

Quade: ".... I know!  I know!   That's what I'm talking about.   Coming to the All Stars - like, it came to me in a dream.......  I was practicing my unstoppable runs, on my surfboard, all night and then just lay up against some rocks and started dreaming, mate.  And I dreamed of coming to the All Stars."

Kiss:  "It's Ulster.  Ulster.  U-l-s-t-e-r."

Quade:  "Yeah, I can spell.  The All Stars.   I love France and I'm looking forward to joining Dan Carter and Halfpennies and Phonefana and all them boys.  We'll be magic!  You won't regret it."

Kiss:   "I want out of here, quick.   Time to resign."

marty2086 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

He's a good player,

Im thinking its bu!!$h!t though, Les wasn't in charge of recruitment and if his position was precarious Logan and Bryn were hardly going to allow him to recruit players

Cooper wouldn't have been a great signing, so Baldrick probably wouldn't touch any connection to that with a bargepole, and Logan probably thought it was a car Les was buying.
Kiss could have been in advanced talks with Quade - but not to sign him and was just looking for his contact list, so he could do a bit of cold calling in Queensland peddling a used coach with two careful owners.

marty2086 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Neil Best this morning on Twitter

@Best6Analysis wrote:
Interesting that Les Kiss was in advanced talks with @QuadeCooper before he and @UlsterRugby parted company #SUFTUM Should #Ulster still pursue the move?

He's a good player,

Im thinking its bu!!$h!t though, Les wasn't in charge of recruitment and if his position was precarious Logan and Bryn were hardly going to allow him to recruit players

It is

Neil Best was a tube when he was here and leopards don't change their spots.

Posted on the match thread but more appropriate here

'Trimble and Bowes legs have gone, as have Henrys, as have P.Marshall.
Thanks lads but time to go

Hearing Trimble might even call it a day as well inspite of having 1 year on his contract.
If he stays he will only be a break glass option

Best team won, Gilroy and McPhillips injuries were crucial.
Having said that the difference in power in the forwards was stark - we never coped with Edinburgh pick and going around the breakdown.

Marshall was outstanding and showed why he should be lining up at 13 for Ireland next week.
He wont be but Farrell has NEVER put in a performance at that level, at least playing for an Irish side.

10 next week will be Cooney or Nelson.

Ulster are a couple of defeats away from playing in the European Challenge Cup.
Watch those ST numbers tumble - I know whole swaths of people who will not be renewing.

We are falling down a hole and I still cant see the bottom'

Well as depressing as the result was, Marshall was outstanding, mckloskey seems back to his best and....well that's all I can think.ofvright now.
So next week do we play Curtis at ten?
I think for the rest of the season, when it's a choice between a fading old player and an untested kid, let's throw the kids in.
At worst we get spanked, but we may unearth a talent or two, so Frick it may as well go for it

There’s a lot to take from that game in terms of effort though. Timoney, McCloskey and Marshall were excellent. McPhillips and Gilroy massively unlucky. Bowe looked done from the second McPhillips identified a 2 on 1 on the short side and Bowe couldn’t keep up.

I’m undecided yet on renewing. For a shocking season I’d say there was still approx 14000 there last night

So Payne as defence coach

1) jobs for boys which is an Ulster problem
2) masterstroke using his knowledge and hopefully Farrells mentoring.

Nail your colours to the mast now. As its all to easy to say the opposite later when it works/doesn't work.

I thought our defence was better. Individual mistakes (some brought on by fatigue and our inability to exit) cost us. Some, like dalton and ah you were less forgivable. I thought our system was better. Bearing in mind where we are with squad depth and the fact our NIQs are useless to a man (obviously two are useful but unavailable) I think the defence did ok. Our skills are dreadful. Get rid of Malone and get someone else in to help Peel with skills/attack

I do agree that I’m fed up with the ‘I knew it was a bad idea’ comments, but honestly I don’t know. Some on here, do have good knowledge, some maybe pretend like they do.
I’m happy enough to say ‘don’t know’.
But that’s the point, I’m not meant to know. I should be able to trust the club themselves. But sadly that trust has been broken by a disastrous string of unsuccessful appointments.
If a coach doesn’t get wins, they get fired, if the recruiter doesn’t recruit winning coaches, they should face the same fate.

Standulstermen wrote:There’s a lot to take from that game in terms of effort though. Timoney, McCloskey and Marshall were excellent. McPhillips and Gilroy massively unlucky. Bowe looked done from the second McPhillips identified a 2 on 1 on the short side and Bowe couldn’t keep up.

I’m undecided yet on renewing. For a shocking season I’d say there was still approx 14000 there last night

Think it was harsh to say Bowe couldn't keep up, he was telling McPhillips to pass inside to Ludik and he didn't

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There’s a lot to take from that game in terms of effort though. Timoney, McCloskey and Marshall were excellent. McPhillips and Gilroy massively unlucky. Bowe looked done from the second McPhillips identified a 2 on 1 on the short side and Bowe couldn’t keep up.

I’m undecided yet on renewing. For a shocking season I’d say there was still approx 14000 there last night

Think it was harsh to say Bowe couldn't keep up, he was telling McPhillips to pass inside to Ludik and he didn't

Speed of thought Marty. The old Bowe would have been demanding attacking the short side

Standulstermen wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There’s a lot to take from that game in terms of effort though. Timoney, McCloskey and Marshall were excellent. McPhillips and Gilroy massively unlucky. Bowe looked done from the second McPhillips identified a 2 on 1 on the short side and Bowe couldn’t keep up.

I’m undecided yet on renewing. For a shocking season I’d say there was still approx 14000 there last night

Think it was harsh to say Bowe couldn't keep up, he was telling McPhillips to pass inside to Ludik and he didn't

Speed of thought Marty. The old Bowe would have been demanding attacking the short side

Maybe or maybe he saw something McPhillips didn't

Kingshu wrote:So Payne as defence coach

1) jobs for boys which is an Ulster problem
2) masterstroke using his knowledge and hopefully Farrells mentoring.

Nail your colours to the mast now. As its all to easy to say the opposite later when it works/doesn't work.

Neither I'd guess, we need a defence coach and so you have to look at the options available, with it being mid season there won't be many. Having Jared Payne in there until the end of the season with Farrell gives you a good base to build off and then next season whatever the coaching staff is can work out if he's the best option or someone else is.

Payne should do a good job, he is an excellent palyer and well respected so players will listen, he has been the organiser in Ulster and Irelands defence for some years now and will certainly help get those positions right.

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:There’s a lot to take from that game in terms of effort though. Timoney, McCloskey and Marshall were excellent. McPhillips and Gilroy massively unlucky. Bowe looked done from the second McPhillips identified a 2 on 1 on the short side and Bowe couldn’t keep up.

I’m undecided yet on renewing. For a shocking season I’d say there was still approx 14000 there last night

Think it was harsh to say Bowe couldn't keep up, he was telling McPhillips to pass inside to Ludik and he didn't

Speed of thought Marty. The old Bowe would have been demanding attacking the short side

Maybe or maybe he saw something McPhillips didn't

Nope he’s done.
He looks like a guy who dreads hearing his name. No slight on him. He tried to get involved. I’m sure he is more acutely aware of hIs limitations than any of us.

I agree done - back on his heals.
2 years ago he would have made serious ground.

As I say Bowe, Trimble, Henry, P. Marshall, all done.
Give them their, deserved, rewards and move on.
Others done as well but maybe never quite there in the first place - bottomline a lot of dead wood.
We need to get 4 quality fit NIQ players in over the next two summers (none of our current NIQs fit the bill)
to play alongside what will be a very young side.
No prizes for 2-3 years but this is the way to build - it is going to be a long road back.

Unless we continue to sign Moores, Cooneys and Murphys (I wont add Ah You to that list).

clivemcl wrote:Unless we continue to sign Moores, Cooneys and Murphys (I wont add Ah You to that list).

Problem is clive we also need the Ah You signings to create depth, that's not going to come from the academy over the next few years and there are too many positions where we are short and close to crisis point with so we need any half decent IQ player we can get our hands on right now.

We also need someone to sit down with some diagrams and maybe a colouring book of the laws for Rodney, maybe then he'll take them in a bit better

clivemcl wrote:Unless we continue to sign Moores, Cooneys and Murphys (I wont add Ah You to that list).

Nice to haves - but small in number and will not be the core of any recovery

After Bowe Trimble Marshall Henry go, how many of senior squad will be Ulster born and bred?

IQ players we didn’t produce.
Help me out here

Moore
Ah You
Herbst (when? Can’t remember)
Herring
Treadwell
Browne
Diack
O’Connor
Murphy
Tomoney
Cooney
Curtis
Herron
Ludik
Payne???

I miss anyone?

All (supposedly) bolstered by Deysel, Merve , Coetzee and likely an NIQ10

Are we really any less flooded by outsiders than the French teams?? It’s just that we were forced to use projects or find IQs from elsewhere.

Has the IRFU regulations really increased the Ulster production line?

Looking at that list you realise where being run by fukwits for decades has gotten us. Rebuilding will take time and a huge change in attitudes and practices throughout Ulster Rugby and beyond right down to grassroots level. The schools cup has a lot to answer for too but will anything actually change?

Just to put clives point about replacing the IQ and ulster bred players

LH - rip up VDMs contract. Sign a Dooley if possible as first choice. McCall, O'Hagan and Warwick to back up
TH- Moore signed. Promote O'Toole from the academy. Looks better than Rodney. Herbst. Warwick at a push
Hooker - we need to see McBurney sooner rather than later. Other than that we are fine
Lock- Henderson, Treadwell, O'Connor. Invest in Dalton. Could use another here
Backrow- Murphy,Reidy, Coetzee backed up by Deysel, Timoney, Jones, Hall, Agnew. Im not convinced by Rea.Hall and Agnew are Ireland U20. Dunleavy too for that matter. Timoney has earned it. Jones has promise. another NIQ to replace Deysel would be great if unlikely.
9- Cooney is 1st choice. Stewart probably no more than a backup. Very tough after that
10- Big question. we need an NIQ and i have no issue with McPhillips backing him up. Lowry and Curtis are both Irish U20 or would have been but for injury.
Centres - Marshall and McCloskey. Retain Cave. Promote Hume. depth here isnt great
outside backs- Gilroy, Stockdale, Lyttle, Ludik, Again no real depth here. Maybe need and NIQ outside back or some form of IQ signing. Re-sign Scholes perhaps.

Not sure if there is anyone i have missed but there is raw talent in the academy and i would have no issue with seeing O'Hagan, O'Toole, Dalton, Stewart, Hume, Lowry and Curtis and any combination of the backrows being brought in. Thats plenty of Ulstermen and academy aswell. Its a rebuilding process. anyone thinking there's a 1 year fix is mad. We need to IRFU to buy into whatever vision of the future we are selling though and let us get rid of the NIQ deadwood and replace it.

Agree with all that stand. Does anyone know of any irish qualified players in France or England for that matter who we might be able to persuade to come to ulster?

Nice post stand

clivemcl wrote:IQ players we didn’t produce.
Help me out here

Moore
Ah You
Herbst (when? Can’t remember)
Herring
Treadwell
Browne
Diack
O’Connor
Murphy
Tomoney
Cooney
Curtis
Herron
Ludik
Payne???

I miss anyone?

All (supposedly) bolstered by Deysel, Merve , Coetzee and likely an NIQ10

Are we really any less flooded by outsiders than the French teams?? It’s just that we were forced to use projects or find IQs from elsewhere.

Has the IRFU regulations really increased the Ulster production line?

Add Reidy, Ross, Jones, Shanahan, and McPhillips.

The Ulster production line is well broken, they have less than half the numbers in age grade rugby than both Leinster and Munster, and those that make it to the Academy disappear as though it were an abyss.

All the IRFU regulations do is make it harder.

Personally speaking i dont care as long as we have young Irishmen in the side. Ulstermen preferably but Irishmen at least. McPhillips has surely came through our academy, same for AoC and O'Toole. Thats close enough for me. If someone is able to persuade Callum Reid (i think its reid) to enter the academy we would have a serious prospect at LH too

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:IQ players we didn’t produce.
Help me out here

Moore
Ah You
Herbst (when? Can’t remember)
Herring
Treadwell
Browne
Diack
O’Connor
Murphy
Tomoney
Cooney
Curtis
Herron
Ludik
Payne???

I miss anyone?

All (supposedly) bolstered by Deysel, Merve , Coetzee and likely an NIQ10

Are we really any less flooded by outsiders than the French teams?? It’s just that we were forced to use projects or find IQs from elsewhere.

Has the IRFU regulations really increased the Ulster production line?

Add Reidy, Ross, Jones, Shanahan, and McPhillips.

The Ulster production line is well broken, they have less than half the numbers in age grade rugby than both Leinster and Munster, and those that make it to the Academy disappear as though it were an abyss.

All the IRFU regulations do is make it harder.

All true but to be fair we have our best Academy in years.
I also have to say, to a certain extent, so what.
The reality is the game has moved on and the days of 20 of 23 players being Ulster born are long gone.
The comparison to French teams is nonsense - how many Non French qualified players do they have 40% - 80%.
The list above includes players who are Irish born or Irish qualified through parentage - you are not comparing a level playing field

We could ditch ever player who is NIQ or qualified through parentage and there would hardly be any drop in quality next year
NIQ
Coetzee - permanently injured. Great player but players who are never fit are no use
Deysel - often injured, some power but poor ball skills (often loses it in contact), slow in defence. Nothing special and Id rather see the young lads playing
deMerwe - complete and utter waste of space and not worth a contract. Hopefully ditch in the summer
Residency
Herbst - decent TH but nothing special
Ah You - poor TH. Has some power but loses the ball in contact and misses far too many tackles
Diack - a very ordinary player who has been here for years. If he leaves he will be not great lose. Quite possibly leaving in the summer
Ludik - good player and the one player who would be a loss

Going into next year, unless Coetzee makes a recovery only Ludik makes the starting XV
You will not find a team in the NH who are less dependant on Non nationals and residency qualified players than Ulster

We may not be very good but we are a genuine rooted in our own nation in a way no other NH team is

We should have signed Duncan Weir from under Worcesters noses. Perfect pro 14 Outhalf... we dont need a maverick, just someone who will pin teams back and give our forwards an easier ride.

cant agree Toml. we need someone of quality to bring on McPhillips/Lowry/Curtis. Weir is simply not good enough to waste and NIQ spot on

What quality halves are on the market. I think Ulster are a bit late to the party

you might be right but i suspect there might be numerous better kiwis and remember the guy who was our 10 for the first half of the season is out of contract

Geoff, very defensive there. I’m not in any way against the significant big of Non-Ulster IQs or parent-qualified players, but you can’t get away from the fact we seem to be more reliant on it because we aren’t producing home growns as much as other provinces.

of that list though clive, O'Connor, Curtis, Timoney came through our academy. Similarly i see nothing wrong with a Diack or a Herring. A lot of the others are not only non-irish/ulster but are pretty poor to boot. Thats the issue

Slight curve ball. Nacewa is retiring from Leinster. Would Ulster contract him for a year if he’s not going into coaching?

clivemcl wrote:Geoff, very defensive there. I’m not in any way against the significant big of Non-Ulster IQs or parent-qualified players, but you can’t get away from the fact we seem to be more reliant on it because we aren’t producing home growns as much as other provinces.

Not defensive Clive - just pointing out the way you presented the list was distorted
As Stand says a number of non Ulster born players in the list are being developed by us
You can add Jones to his list

As I pointed out our Academy is the best it has been for years - that is one bright light in the gloom
As I also pointed out the days of 20 our of 23 players being ulster born are long gone.
All teams need to fill gaps with non Provincial born players

Leinster have a handful of NIQ players who they are far more reliant on than we are on ours
We had 14 Ulster born and a further 3 Irish born players in our 23 on Friday - I suspect the figures are similar for Munster v Cardiff

Weir no thanks - not even remotely good enough
Nacewa again no thanks - at his age the only way is down.
Short termism is the last thing we need

We should see if we can get a double discount if we sign cipriani and hask from Wasps

I wouldn't think Nacewa would go anywhere else at this stage.  Retirement happened before - I think this time it'll be for real.  
I hope he gets another European star onto his shirt before he says goodbye.  Then I hope he hangs around to coach.  One of the great Leinster players of all time - who showed a loyalty and intensity for the Province that might put many home born players to shame.

carpet baboon wrote:We should see if we can get a double discount if we sign cipriani and hask from Wasps

Cipriani is a diva and not worth the hassle, Haskells staying in England to fight for a place in the RWC squad

Weir is being replaced at Edinburgh by an IQ player so might have been a good idea to sign him, Bristol have signed two IQ players in Muldowney and Heenan, pretty sure Macken at Wasps is out of contract at the end of the season. So there are IQ players out there it just seems we aren't signing them

Cant believe some people.

Forget that drop goal Weir is crap
Edinburgh are getting rid for a reason

I be totally disgusted if we went anywhere near him - thankfully we wont

To be honest if Weir, Nacewa, Cipriani and Haskell are the best we come up with I'd rather we didn't bother

I can see the merit in Nacewa in terms of an extra body in the centre or the back three. To my mind he would be a surplus signing though and i'd be very surprised if he didnt retire.

When Ulster weren't allowed to keep Pienaar, why would they be allowed to sign Nacewa - surely it is only Leinster that are allowed special dispensation in such matters?

marty2086 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:We should see if we can get a double discount if we sign cipriani and hask from Wasps

Cipriani is a diva and not worth the hassle, Haskells staying in England to fight for a place in the RWC squad

Weir is being replaced at Edinburgh by an IQ player so might have been a good idea to sign him, Bristol have signed two IQ players in Muldowney and Heenan, pretty sure Macken at Wasps is out of contract at the end of the season. So there are IQ players out there it just seems we aren't signing them

Muldowney ceased to be IQ when he moved to Grenoble, and Heenan will also lose his residency qualification when he moves to Bristol. Ulster are crying out for players like Heenan, and being a reformed wild boy he might have been what Ulster needed off the pitch as well! Can't blame Heenan wanting to go where he'll get a bit more appreciation from Lam.