Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

by Hazel Sapling Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is the appropriate way forward for Ulster?

Bring Jackson and Olding Back - They were found not guilt and have been punished far enough through reputational damage and a year's suspension

Look to move Olding and Jackson on for a period of time before bringing them back in a couple of seasons - They have brought damage to the Ulster brand and need to mature. This has to be done outside the comfort of Belfast

Terminate/buyout contracts and banish them - They crossed a line too far and they will never play for Ulster again

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:11 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"the only positive thing about it was that at least there were no questions afterwards about whether it was consensual or not"

Really? So a threesome is OK as long as it's consensual?

I wasn't commenting on the morality of the issue on this occasion. I was commenting that at least the woman involved didn't run out of the hotel very upset and we didn't have hear all the sordid details of the night in question every night for 9 weeks.

If you didn't hear the sordid details how do you know she didn't leave upset?

I said I didn't have to listen to the sordid details EVER NIGHT for 9 weeks. Once was enough.

by marty2086 Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:13 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"the only positive thing about it was that at least there were no questions afterwards about whether it was consensual or not"

Really? So a threesome is OK as long as it's consensual?

I wasn't commenting on the morality of the issue on this occasion. I was commenting that at least the woman involved didn't run out of the hotel very upset and we didn't have hear all the sordid details of the night in question every night for 9 weeks.

If you didn't hear the sordid details how do you know she didn't leave upset?

I said I didn't have to listen to the sordid details EVER NIGHT for 9 weeks. Once was enough.

You still don't know if she did or not, that's the problem. You are assuming something you don't know

by Pot Hale Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:21 am

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
And?? It's been all over the media, even the 6 o'clock news and that's pre-watershed. WOW.

Yea, it was all over the news for 9 weeks for all the wrong reasons. Some parents were put out about having to start sex education to 7 years old.

I see the 42.ie has polled 1000 people and 55% didn't want to see PJ and SO in an Irish shirt again (no mention of CG). 1000 people taken from god knows where and all they could get to vote negatively was 55%. I could take a poll of 1000 people 100% of whom want to see them back playing, in fact I could conduct 12 polls of 1000 people simultaneously (maybe more, I've not checked the petition today) and still get the 100%.
Aren't statistics so very malleable if you have an agenda.

You are very poor on detail Pete.

It wasn't the 42.ie that conducted this survey. It was the Claire Byrne Live show on RTE last night (its a current affairs programme). The research was done by Amarach Research in a telephone survey of 1,000 people from ROI (not NI). The question was:
''Would you like to see Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding back playing international rugby for Ireland?
The results were: 55% No, 26% Yes, 19% Undecided.

You can watch the segment of the programme from here. https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/claire-byrne-live-extras-30003215/10862310/

https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/claire-byrne-live-extras-30003215/10862310/

Oops.

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:37 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"the only positive thing about it was that at least there were no questions afterwards about whether it was consensual or not"

Really? So a threesome is OK as long as it's consensual?

I wasn't commenting on the morality of the issue on this occasion. I was commenting that at least the woman involved didn't run out of the hotel very upset and we didn't have hear all the sordid details of the night in question every night for 9 weeks.

If you didn't hear the sordid details how do you know she didn't leave upset?

I said I didn't have to listen to the sordid details EVER NIGHT for 9 weeks. Once was enough.

You still don't know if she did or not, that's the problem. You are assuming something you don't know

No, I'm not. She sent a text to a friend next day saying how she had a great night. The friend accidentally sent it to some group she is in. She did says afterwards in an interview in Indo. that she now regrets it.

by Pete330v2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:51 am

"You are very poor on detail Pete."

A hilarious comment coming from the forum fantasist but nothing surprises any more.

I don't give a toss who conducted the poll, it's skewed and therefore meaningless as you yourself pointed out the people were all from the ROI. Lazy, crappy, pathetic journalism yet again that has only one agenda, an agenda similar to your own.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:23 pm

marty2086 wrote:You know somethings wrong when Neil Best is talking more sense than most

Neil Best wrote:When the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

It was pleasing to see Ulster’s desire return them to winning ways at the weekend. After three defeats in a row, the win in Edinburgh was welcome respite in what has been a hugely disappointing season. Ulster didn’t have a spectacular start to the game but Edinburgh failed to take control either. It allowed Ulster to feel their way into things until Charles Piutau sparked their confidence. Ulster proved competent defensively and their backline slick in attack with Darren Cave making a strong case for a new contract.

The forwards have been a weak point for much of the season but they acquitted themselves well -not dominant but competitive. When the first scrum of the game came in the second half it exposed Ulster’s considerable achilles heel. Something they will have to remedy in the remaining weeks of the season to have any hope of salvaging a playoff spot.

It’s a big ask because they’re going to have to win four in a row -something they haven’t achieved since the opening month of the season. They haven’t even managed two in a row since the back to back wins against Harlequins in December.

Most significant maybe in Friday night’s performance was the presence of Rory Best -always talking and encouraging those around him. Whilst Ireland have benefitted from his leadership this season -it’s been largely at Ulster’s expense. You could see his influence in how Ulster closed out the last fifteen minutes -even though he was replaced by Rob Herring with a few minutes to go. A number of the pack raised their game against Edinburgh, with some younger players involved who will only get better with experience. A playoff remains possible even if unlikely.

The build-up to the game was significantly overshadowed by the ongoing suspension of Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. It was a subject I had decided not to comment upon -until Craig Gilroy also found himself suspended. It’s clear to me his suspension was a direct result of it suddenly dawning on the Club that maintaining the suspension of the other two post-acquittal could only be done so on what they had admitted in evidence and the unsavoury Whatsapp messaging.

As Gilroy had been disclosed in Court as having participated in this group he too found himself suspended. However, bizarrely this didn’t come about when the Club became aware of the evidence to be produced at trial, or even during the trial itself, but post-trial when establishing a basis of continued suspension of Jackson and Olding.

If the club truly believed Gilroy’s participation in this messaging warranted suspension and investigation it should have happened sooner -and because this didn’t happen it suggests to me it’s an afterthought in response to public opinion. Indeed, much of the Club’s approach since the verdict suggests inadequate thought of how to manage the outcome of the trial whatever that might have been.

It also seems Jackson was done no favours by the public pronouncements of his lawyers in the immediate aftermath of the trial -if anything, it further antagonised public opinion towards him. It’s hard to believe that he was the origin of this strategy and his late in the day apology has done little to redeem the situation.

But there is still one necessary apology that hasn’t been made -from Ulster Rugby itself. Not only are these young men employees of Ulster Rugby, but they’d come through the youth system -supposedly prepared as potential role models, for the pressures of fame and wealth in the goldfish bowl that is Belfast.

The Club and that system must shoulder a shared responsibility for the character and behaviour of the young players it produces. Rather than suspending or sacking them maybe Ulster should seek to further educate them on the standards and attitudes it expects and review current programmes to minimise the prospect of one of their system’s products ever remotely becoming involved in anything like this again.

Ulster and Irish rugby will comfortably carry on next season without Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding or even Craig Gilroy but that would be the easy option. The more difficult and right course for Ulster Rugby to take is to retain these players and guide them to higher standards of conduct for what’s left of their playing careers.

The only difference between the saint and the sinner is that every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future.

By far the most sane and coherent opinion that I've seen. Holds Ulster rugby to account in a way none of the other hysteria has managed to articulate. Shows the timing of the CG actions for what they really are. Whether I'm one side of the debate or the other, I can understand where he is coming from, his rationale.

by marty2086 Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:10 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
By far the most sane and coherent opinion that I've seen. Holds Ulster rugby to account in a way none of the other hysteria has managed to articulate. Shows the timing of the CG actions for what they really are. Whether I'm one side of the debate or the other, I can understand where he is coming from, his rationale.

Like I said, if Neil Best is the voice of reason then we are in a mess.

The problems around player behaviour are long standing, Belfast bouncers say the worst they've dealt with for being drunken idiots are members of the Ulster team and one in particular. I know there was a fight I the Europa Hotel a few years ago with senior members of the squad and a guy being an ar$ehole.

Stephen Ferris I think has been honest about his behaviour and attitude for a long time, he had a sense of entitlement. So there would seem to be issues around how players behave and how Ulster engrain a culture and deal with these issues.

Neil Best was maybe the worst of the lot though, I've Paddy Wallace tell the story of being away at the 2007 RWC and on a night out Best randomly ran up to a fan and punched him for a laugh. The fan somehow saw the funny side

by Pete330v2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:21 pm

The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:45 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete Wink

by Pete330v2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:35 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

by Standulstermen Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Actually it was laughed off Sin as probably none of the 139 were Ulster or indeed Irish fans but rather activists from across the British Isles. Looking at the names of those donating to this one you can see there are Ulster fans

by No 7&1/2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:51 pm

That's a bit of a guess though.you'd have to admit.

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:53 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Actually it was laughed off Sin as probably none of the 139 were Ulster or indeed Irish fans but rather activists from across the British Isles. Looking at the names of those donating to this one you can see there are Ulster fans

Does it matter if they are Ulster fans (which I don't think they claimed to be)?

by marty2086 Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:07 pm

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Actually it was laughed off Sin as probably none of the 139 were Ulster or indeed Irish fans but rather activists from across the British Isles. Looking at the names of those donating to this one you can see there are Ulster fans

Does it matter if they are Ulster fans (which I don't think they claimed to be)?

So non Ulster fans telling Ulster rugby they won't stand for the players staying, you seriously think it doesn't matter if they are Ulster fans?

If they aren't Ulster fans then what are they going to do, continue to not attend games not having an impact on anything at Ulster?

by No 7&1/2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:35 pm

Is there a wider role for sports clubs?

by Pete330v2 Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:41 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

Incorrect but let me explain, you really aren't one for the detail are you?
The previous one tried to pass itself off as Ulster fans which is one of the reasons why it was laughed off, the URSC made sure to distance themselves from it.
There you go again entering your little fantasy world by claiming PJ and SO have paid towards the ad. You also seem to forget CG who is in a better financial place to make donations seeing as the trial has ruined the other players financially.
Does the size of the donations matter anyway? You were the one that asked Ulster Fans to put their money where their mouth is like the brave, generous and fake feminists. They did with complete ease.
You really are a joke!

by geoff999rugby Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Actually it was laughed off Sin as probably none of the 139 were Ulster or indeed Irish fans but rather activists from across the British Isles. Looking at the names of those donating to this one you can see there are Ulster fans

Does it matter if they are Ulster fans (which I don't think they claimed to be)?

They claimed to be fans - 99$ certain that a lie.

Anyway this is dragging on - do you think they should be kicked out of Ulster - Yes or No

by geoff999rugby Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:40 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

Lets talk numbers - 15000 sign a petition to retain the players in less than 2 days
Lets talk money - wit is clear in that number are a lot (many thousand) ST holders.
Lets say those STs average £300 - a mere 100 supporters, means a sum of £30,000 put where their mouth is.

139 coming up with £2000 is dwarfed by comparison

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

Incorrect but let me explain, you really aren't one for the detail are you?
The previous one tried to pass itself off as Ulster fans which is one of the reasons why it was laughed off, the URSC made sure to distance themselves from it.
There you go again entering your little fantasy world by claiming PJ and SO have paid towards the ad. You also seem to forget CG who is in a better financial place to make donations seeing as the trial has ruined the other players financially.
Does the size of the donations matter anyway? You were the one that asked Ulster Fans to put their money where their mouth is like the brave, generous and fake feminists. They did with complete ease.
You really are a joke!

The content of the ad which was addressed to the leadership of IRFU & Ulster Rugby.
----
"The content of the social media exchanges involving Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding was reprehensible.

"Such behaviour falls far beneath the standards that your organisations represent and as such we demand that neither of these men represents Ulster or Ireland now or at any point in the future.

"We expect an answer to this letter. Yours, concerned fans."
----

Are you questioning their claim that the social media exchanges were reprehensible? Their attitude to women is shocking and gives a very poor example. On and off the pitch, they are role models.

I personally am not an MMA fan, but Conor McGregor embarasses me. Does that mean I can't be critical of his behaviour?
Similarly, I don't see why those people who took out the ad can't do the same. They don't need to be season ticket holders of Ulster Rugby. Who wants to be represented by a team with mysoginists on it?

I was joking about the donations! Well done on doing that.

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:26 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

Lets talk numbers - 15000 sign a petition to retain the players in less than 2 days
Lets talk money - wit is clear in that number are a lot (many thousand) ST holders.
Lets say those STs average £300 - a mere 100 supporters, means a sum of £30,000 put where their mouth is.

139 coming up with £2000 is dwarfed by comparison

They were going to buy their season tickets anyway, or are you saying they were not and now they are to support the boys?

by Sin é Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:28 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Actually it was laughed off Sin as probably none of the 139 were Ulster or indeed Irish fans but rather activists from across the British Isles. Looking at the names of those donating to this one you can see there are Ulster fans

Does it matter if they are Ulster fans (which I don't think they claimed to be)?

They claimed to be fans - 99$ certain that a lie.

Anyway this is dragging on - do you think they should be kicked out of Ulster - Yes or No

Up to Ulster. Not me. If they were with my province, I'd want them gone. I don't want them in an Ireland jersey.

by geoff999rugby Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The gofundme page for the counter-advert has reached the goal in 1 day.
I'm not sure what it'll achieve but it's definitely 2 fingers up to those who suggested Ulster fans weren't putting their money where their mouths are.

All 109 of them Pete

I fail to see your point which isn't surprising really, few ever do.

Might be a bit subtle for you so I'll explain. The other crowd funding ad was laughed off for not being representative of Ulster fans because they only had 139 subscribers! (penny didn't drop that as soon as they hit their target they closed it - same with Ulster Supporters One).

Some very large individual doners as well (£200) towards the fund. That could have been PJ & SO!

Lets talk numbers - 15000 sign a petition to retain the players in less than 2 days
Lets talk money - wit is clear in that number are a lot (many thousand) ST holders.
Lets say those STs average £300 - a mere 100 supporters, means a sum of £30,000 put where their mouth is.

139 coming up with £2000 is dwarfed by comparison

They were going to buy their season tickets anyway, or are you saying they were not and now they are to support the boys?

That is exactly what I am saying.
A significant number of ST holders will walk away if the players are hounded out
There are some holding out to the last date of renewal waiting on what happens.

I also note that the attempts to silence the petition have failed and it is back up.
What the players did was not acceptable and they should be punished but still allowed to play next year
The social media campaign to silence any support of them and drown them out will inaccurate claims is totally reprehensible.
It is the fake news syndrome that gave us Brexit, Trumo and Orban.
Social Media shouting trying to drown out anyone who disagrees with the mob is a very worrying trend

by Pot Hale Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:15 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You know somethings wrong when Neil Best is talking more sense than most

Neil Best wrote:When the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

It was pleasing to see Ulster’s desire return them to winning ways at the weekend. After three defeats in a row, the win in Edinburgh was welcome respite in what has been a hugely disappointing season. Ulster didn’t have a spectacular start to the game but Edinburgh failed to take control either. It allowed Ulster to feel their way into things until Charles Piutau sparked their confidence. Ulster proved competent defensively and their backline slick in attack with Darren Cave making a strong case for a new contract.

The forwards have been a weak point for much of the season but they acquitted themselves well -not dominant but competitive. When the first scrum of the game came in the second half it exposed Ulster’s considerable achilles heel. Something they will have to remedy in the remaining weeks of the season to have any hope of salvaging a playoff spot.

It’s a big ask because they’re going to have to win four in a row -something they haven’t achieved since the opening month of the season. They haven’t even managed two in a row since the back to back wins against Harlequins in December.

Most significant maybe in Friday night’s performance was the presence of Rory Best -always talking and encouraging those around him. Whilst Ireland have benefitted from his leadership this season -it’s been largely at Ulster’s expense. You could see his influence in how Ulster closed out the last fifteen minutes -even though he was replaced by Rob Herring with a few minutes to go. A number of the pack raised their game against Edinburgh, with some younger players involved who will only get better with experience. A playoff remains possible even if unlikely.

The build-up to the game was significantly overshadowed by the ongoing suspension of Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. It was a subject I had decided not to comment upon -until Craig Gilroy also found himself suspended. It’s clear to me his suspension was a direct result of it suddenly dawning on the Club that maintaining the suspension of the other two post-acquittal could only be done so on what they had admitted in evidence and the unsavoury Whatsapp messaging.

As Gilroy had been disclosed in Court as having participated in this group he too found himself suspended. However, bizarrely this didn’t come about when the Club became aware of the evidence to be produced at trial, or even during the trial itself, but post-trial when establishing a basis of continued suspension of Jackson and Olding.

If the club truly believed Gilroy’s participation in this messaging warranted suspension and investigation it should have happened sooner -and because this didn’t happen it suggests to me it’s an afterthought in response to public opinion. Indeed, much of the Club’s approach since the verdict suggests inadequate thought of how to manage the outcome of the trial whatever that might have been.

It also seems Jackson was done no favours by the public pronouncements of his lawyers in the immediate aftermath of the trial -if anything, it further antagonised public opinion towards him. It’s hard to believe that he was the origin of this strategy and his late in the day apology has done little to redeem the situation.

But there is still one necessary apology that hasn’t been made -from Ulster Rugby itself. Not only are these young men employees of Ulster Rugby, but they’d come through the youth system -supposedly prepared as potential role models, for the pressures of fame and wealth in the goldfish bowl that is Belfast.

The Club and that system must shoulder a shared responsibility for the character and behaviour of the young players it produces. Rather than suspending or sacking them maybe Ulster should seek to further educate them on the standards and attitudes it expects and review current programmes to minimise the prospect of one of their system’s products ever remotely becoming involved in anything like this again.

Ulster and Irish rugby will comfortably carry on next season without Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding or even Craig Gilroy but that would be the easy option. The more difficult and right course for Ulster Rugby to take is to retain these players and guide them to higher standards of conduct for what’s left of their playing careers.

The only difference between the saint and the sinner is that every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future.

By far the most sane and coherent opinion that I've seen. Holds Ulster rugby to account in a way none of the other hysteria has managed to articulate. Shows the timing of the CG actions for what they really are. Whether I'm one side of the debate or the other, I can understand where he is coming from, his rationale.

“It’s clear to me his (Gilroy) suspension was a direct result of it suddenly dawning on the Club that maintaining the suspension of the other two post-acquittal could only be done so on what they had admitted in evidence and the unsavoury Whatsapp messaging....

As Gilroy had been disclosed in Court as having participated in this group he too found himself suspended. However, bizarrely this didn’t come about when the Club became aware of the evidence to be produced at trial, or even during the trial itself, but post-trial when establishing a basis of continued suspension of Jackson and Olding.

If the club truly believed Gilroy’s participation in this messaging warranted suspension and investigation it should have happened sooner....”

Does Best really think that suspending an Ulster player before or during a court case about other Ulster players based on evidence raised during a trial would be the better option rather than waiting until the trial had concluded? He’s not thinking the consequences of such a suspension on a court case and the accused players.

Does he believe that Ulster/IRFU should have concluded its review of the incident before the trial ended and not known the boundaries of such a review? They started a review before the trial got going and had to suspend it to allow due process to occur.

Best clearly believes that it’s partly Ulster Rugby’s problem that these toe-rags behaved the way they did. A veritable middle-class product of their environment. ‘It was the environment that I was playing in that did it, guv, honest.’

“The Club and that system must shoulder a shared responsibility for the character and behaviour of the young players it produces. Rather than suspending or sacking them maybe Ulster should seek to further educate them on the standards and attitudes it expects and review current programmes to minimise the prospect of one of their system’s products ever remotely becoming involved in anything like this again.”

On reading this paragraph, one would be forgiven for thinking that Ulster Rugby is producing young players who act and behave like this all the time - that it’s a systemic problem and not confined to the pair of toe-rags.

One mightn’t agree with some of the wilder pitchfork mob rants/demands and what they’re seeking; equally some of the obviously defensive or counter statements from those wishing for the players to remain in the fold sound equally flawed and ignorant.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:13 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Does Best really think that suspending an Ulster player before or during a court case about other Ulster players based on evidence raised during a trial would be the better option rather than waiting until the trial had concluded? He’s not thinking the consequences of such a suspension on a court case and the accused players.

Does he believe that Ulster/IRFU should have concluded its review of the incident before the trial ended and not known the boundaries of such a review? They started a review before the trial got going and had to suspend it to allow due process to occur.

Except Gilroy wasn't suspended until he was named publically, they knew before that he had sent the message and had a number of days between the end of the trial and the outing and did nothing. In fact they denied to the press that any other players took part in the group chat, failing to mention Gilroys message

Pot Hale wrote:Best clearly believes that it’s partly Ulster Rugby’s problem that these toe-rags behaved the way they did. A veritable middle-class product of their environment. ‘It was the environment that I was playing in that did it, guv, honest.’

“The Club and that system must shoulder a shared responsibility for the character and behaviour of the young players it produces. Rather than suspending or sacking them maybe Ulster should seek to further educate them on the standards and attitudes it expects and review current programmes to minimise the prospect of one of their system’s products ever remotely becoming involved in anything like this again.”

On reading this paragraph, one would be forgiven for thinking that Ulster Rugby is producing young players who act and behave like this all the time - that it’s a systemic problem and not confined to the pair of toe-rags.

One mightn’t agree with some of the wilder pitchfork mob rants/demands and what they’re seeking; equally some of the obviously defensive or counter statements from those wishing for the players to remain in the fold sound equally flawed and ignorant.

This is not the first issue players in Ulster have had problems with behaviour, quite a few have come through the system and thought they were gods. As I said Ferris has been quite open about being a complete d*ck in the past, Neil Best himself is another example. Ulster have turned a blind eye to bad behaviour because it hasn't caused ripples publically, that creates a culture whereby players think they can act without repercussions, it's toxic

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:13 pm

Not guilty, case closed. No need for full page ads, marches nor bans. They are entitled to work as are all citizens, time to move on.

Lets hope they have learned their lesson re respect.

by Sin é Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:43 pm

The culture of Ulster Rugby needs to be sorted. There has been a list of 'indescretions' as you might call them. Plenty of warning signs as well that they were getting themselves into messy situations (Roger Wilson drink driving, Isaac Boss had an accusation of r*** dropped). It must be a very odd dressing room bearing in mind the number of committed Christians in Ulster - presumably they must be very much the non-judgemental kind.

How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

I don't think the Ulster supporters are doing themselves any favours either with their various public campaigns demanding reinstatement. Its putting Ulster Rugby and the IRFU in a very awkward place.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

Munster sex tapes, Doug Howlett was arrested a number of years ago too
Mils Muliania arrested for r***
The Ireland team went on a three day drinking binge after winning the Grand Slam but just Ulster have problems

Rolling Eyes

by PhilBB Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:54 pm

Muliaina was never accused of r***

by Pot Hale Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Does Best really think that suspending an Ulster player before or during a court case about other Ulster players based on evidence raised during a trial would be the better option rather than waiting until the trial had concluded? He’s not thinking the consequences of such a suspension on a court case and the accused players.

Does he believe that Ulster/IRFU should have concluded its review of the incident before the trial ended and not known the boundaries of such a review? They started a review before the trial got going and had to suspend it to allow due process to occur.

Except Gilroy wasn't suspended until he was named publicly, they knew before that he had sent the message and had a number of days between the end of the trial and the outing and did nothing. In fact they denied to the press that any other players took part in the group chat, failing to mention Gilroys message

Pot Hale wrote:Best clearly believes that it’s partly Ulster Rugby’s problem that these toe-rags behaved the way they did. A veritable middle-class product of their environment. ‘It was the environment that I was playing in that did it, guv, honest.’

“The Club and that system must shoulder a shared responsibility for the character and behaviour of the young players it produces. Rather than suspending or sacking them maybe Ulster should seek to further educate them on the standards and attitudes it expects and review current programmes to minimise the prospect of one of their system’s products ever remotely becoming involved in anything like this again.”

On reading this paragraph, one would be forgiven for thinking that Ulster Rugby is producing young players who act and behave like this all the time - that it’s a systemic problem and not confined to the pair of toe-rags.

One mightn’t agree with some of the wilder pitchfork mob rants/demands and what they’re seeking; equally some of the obviously defensive or counter statements from those wishing for the players to remain in the fold sound equally flawed and ignorant.

This is not the first issue players in Ulster have had problems with behaviour, quite a few have come through the system and thought they were gods. As I said Ferris has been quite open about being a complete d*ck in the past, Neil Best himself is another example. Ulster have turned a blind eye to bad behaviour because it hasn't caused ripples publically, that creates a culture whereby players think they can act without repercussions, it's toxic

It would appear from Best's comments that when he said Gilroy's suspension should have happened sooner, that he's not talking about the short period after the trial. Nonetheless, I accept that UR haven't covered themselves in glory throughout the whole affair, Marty.

If it's not the first time that players have acted like this, and Ferris and Best have been guilty of similar boorish behaviour in the past, then why would Ferris and Best advocate that Ulster Rugby should keep doing what it did to them in response to their behaviour? Clearly, it wasn't harsh or effective enough to stamp it out. Giving two players the boot might be what's required to send a stronger message rather than giving them "a stern talking to". Has Neil Best or Ferris ever indicated what they think should have happened to them in response to their transgressions?

Is there a totemic figure in Ulster Rugby who could extol and enforce the desired playing culture of the club? Is there a strong 'no silly billy' policy and if not, is that what is needed? The reaction of of some of those who want them to be reinstated, and that if they aren't it will have an effect on ST season ticket sales, sounds perverse to me as an argument and more like a threat. It does them no favours, nor help UR or the IRFU.

by Pete330v2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:07 pm

"Isaac Boss had an accusation of r*** dropped"

Wow, a whole new crime, having an accusation of r*** dropped. Is that considered as bad as being found not guilty of r**** or is Isaac still considered guilty because of the accusation?
The hashtag gang missed a trick on that one.

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:21 pm

Sin é wrote:The culture of Ulster Rugby needs to be sorted. There has been a list of 'indescretions' as you might call them. Plenty of warning signs as well that they were getting themselves into messy situations (Roger Wilson drink driving, Isaac Boss had an accusation of r*** dropped). It must be a very odd dressing room bearing in mind the number of committed Christians in Ulster - presumably they must be very much the non-judgemental kind.

How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

I don't think the Ulster supporters are doing themselves any favours either with their various public campaigns demanding reinstatement. Its putting Ulster Rugby and the IRFU in a very awkward place.

Jees its a good thing none of this exists in Munster.

1. An ex-Munster player knocking down and killing an innocent 16 year old due to drink driving. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/mothers-pain-as-drinkdrive-rugby-star-escapes-jail-term-26535609.html
2. Simon Zebo and Conor Murray's menage a trois and image leaks.
3. Munster player arrested on a night out. https://www.herald.ie/news/how-christmas-night-out-ended-in-arrest-for-munster-star-dougie-27969657.html

Is it just me or are Munster fans particularly hypocritical?

These are just the stories that make it to the media, a lot more goes on.

by Pete330v2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:The culture of Ulster Rugby needs to be sorted. There has been a list of 'indescretions' as you might call them. Plenty of warning signs as well that they were getting themselves into messy situations (Roger Wilson drink driving, Isaac Boss had an accusation of r*** dropped). It must be a very odd dressing room bearing in mind the number of committed Christians in Ulster - presumably they must be very much the non-judgemental kind.

How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

I don't think the Ulster supporters are doing themselves any favours either with their various public campaigns demanding reinstatement. Its putting Ulster Rugby and the IRFU in a very awkward place.

Jees its a good thing none of this exists in Munster.

1. An ex-Munster player knocking down and killing an innocent 16 year old due to drink driving. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/mothers-pain-as-drinkdrive-rugby-star-escapes-jail-term-26535609.html
2. Simon Zebo and Conor Murray's menage a trois and image leaks.
3. Munster player arrested on a night out. https://www.herald.ie/news/how-christmas-night-out-ended-in-arrest-for-munster-star-dougie-27969657.html

Is it just me or are Munster fans particularly hypocritical?

No there's just one of them.

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:29 pm

Munster fans think their players walk on water, they don't. You cant read a match article on Munster that doesn't fawn over how amazing Peter O'Mahony is for example even if he was average. My sense is that given their God like status if they ever do anything wrong blind eyes are very much turned in the parish. I cant think of any other reason for someone like Eddie Halvey avoiding jail for killing a youth and not be universally condemned in Munster.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:31 pm

The funny part is that Sin has claimed that it doesn't happen at Munster because Cork and Limerick are so small, Zebo and Murrays little tryst happened when they were on a night out in Dublin. Just goes to show

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:34 pm

marty2086 wrote:The funny part is that Sin has claimed that it doesn't happen at Munster because Cork and Limerick are so small, Zebo and Murrays little tryst happened when they were on a night out in Dublin. Just goes to show

Trust me that stuff goes on in Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster. In general nothing wrong with it either IMO. I was more surprised that it happened in Ulster than anywhere given how sanitary nights out (early closing, more religious communities etc.) seem there compared to everywhere else.

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:45 pm

In the Gospel of John, when the Pharisees set a trap for Jesus by presenting an adulteress and asking Jesus to condemn her to death by stoning, according to Mosaic law, he replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” They slunk away “being convicted by their own conscience,”

by Sin é Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

by Sin é Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:The funny part is that Sin has claimed that it doesn't happen at Munster because Cork and Limerick are so small, Zebo and Murrays little tryst happened when they were on a night out in Dublin. Just goes to show

There was no question marks about consent and they didn't bring the game of rugby into disrepute with a 9 week trial and now protest marches. They didn't show disrespect to women with horrible texts.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:12 pm

Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

So now its about who ended up in court? So someone who is falsely accused and ends up in court is at fault? picard

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

Eddie Halvey killed a 16 year old boy because he was pi$$ed out of his head. He served no jail time whatsoever. Maybe you should be getting on your high horse about that?

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The funny part is that Sin has claimed that it doesn't happen at Munster because Cork and Limerick are so small, Zebo and Murrays little tryst happened when they were on a night out in Dublin. Just goes to show

There was no question marks about consent and they didn't bring the game of rugby into disrepute with a 9 week trial and now protest marches. They didn't show disrespect to women with horrible texts.

Dude you are seriously deluded. This is typical behaviour of a fanatic. You are literally unable to see fault in your own heroes.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The funny part is that Sin has claimed that it doesn't happen at Munster because Cork and Limerick are so small, Zebo and Murrays little tryst happened when they were on a night out in Dublin. Just goes to show

There was no question marks about consent and they didn't bring the game of rugby into disrepute with a 9 week trial and now protest marches. They didn't show disrespect to women with horrible texts.

How exactly did they bring the game into disrepute by being accused?
If they have faced false accusations and they seem to claim in court, then how exactly did they do that?
Which texts were disrespectful?

by No 7&1/2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Hmm accusations not proven. Not necessarily false.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm accusations not proven. Not necessarily false.

If you bothered reading, I said they seemed to claim in court I didn't say they were indeed false

by Sin é Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

So now its about who ended up in court? So someone who is falsely accused and ends up in court is at fault?

Yes, it reflects badly on rugby and the people who play it. Sportspeople, whether they like it or not are role models.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

So now its about who ended up in court? So someone who is falsely accused and ends up in court is at fault?

Yes, it reflects badly on rugby and the people who play it. Sportspeople, whether they like it or not are role models.

You really are just a troll

So if I make a false accusation against you, you are to blame?

I bet you are one of those who blames r*** victims for getting drunk or wearing the wrong clothes

by Collapse2005 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:35 pm

I personally think the worst texts were the ones by the other lads rather than Paddy J and Olding.

by Sin é Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:36 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

Eddie Halvey killed a 16 year old boy because he was pi$$ed out of his head. He served no jail time whatsoever. Maybe you should be getting on your high horse about that?

Yes, he did and you won't see or hear too many people in Munster singing his praises. Mick Galwey who gave a character witness statement got huge criticism for doing it as well.

By the way, when the incident happened, Halvey was retired a couple of years.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:37 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I personally think the worst texts were the ones by the other lads rather than Paddy J and Olding.

Exactly, the whole thing about respect for women is a smokescreen for the anger at the verdict. It's about destroying them because people can't accept the outcome of a trial they don't have the full facts from

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