Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Carberry is 22, McPhillips is 21. Is this talk about sticking with McPhillips and hoping he turns out to be a gem maybe a tad naive? Carberry at a year older is being talked about as though he was the second coming and all this despite Sexton and Byrne and a whole backline of stellar players potentially blocking him. By contrast, it's almost as if we only know the name of McPhillips because we had no choice. A year ago the thinking was Jackson and Nelson. We then were saying Cooney can play 10 a bit. Then we signed Lealifano. Surely if McPhillips was the hot prospect, the coaches would have featured him more before Lealifano left.
In fact during Leanlifano's time here wasn't Nelson the preferred bench 10, and indeed started 3 games at 10 before Christmas, but then got injured?

Not meaning to be super negative, I hope I'm wrong. Cooney is a perfect example of a player suddenly shining from nowhere. I guess Ulster coaches know better than me if he's a real prospect worth thrusting into the limelight or not.

I am fully expecting a very big win for Ulster when we visit next weekend. Frankly we are simply not good enough for this competition.

What is confidence like amongst you guys?

LondonTiger wrote:I am fully expecting a very big win for Ulster when we visit next weekend. Frankly we are simply not good enough for this competition.

What is confidence like amongst you guys?

We aren't remotely Champions Cup standard right now either. No better time to come to Belfast, probably since the Matt Williams days at Ulster.

So you're both going to lose this one?

Wow! People need to watch this game - these results don't come around often.

The Great Aukster wrote:With the injuries to Addison, Ludik, Gilroy, Busby and Lyttle, Nelson is probably the best cover in the squad - that's why he is being picked.

The squad is paper thin with some first teamers like O'Connor being below Test class, so the quality is obviously worse behind them. Ulster's squad is probably similar in quality to those of the Kings, Cheetahs, Dragons, Zebre and maybe Treviso so perhaps fans' expectations should reflect that?

If they are the best we can put out though we are best rotating them at least with the youngsters and taking the pain that goes with it. By all accounts the young lads are going well enough for the A's. I understand the reluctance with Sexton (who I believe is still in school) but try one of the others. My only complaint with AoC is that he looks shagged. He isnt a natural athlete but gives his all. Up against Roux and Bealham he was underpowered and its the lack of big lock that is killing us. Thompson I understand is only back from injury so perhaps we will see some movement.

I've defended Cunningham in the past but realistically going through a season with (potentially) only 4 locks you are willing to use with one on restricted gametime is a catastrophic mistake.

And just to think, we could have played the last five games with Trimble and Bowe but they decided to call time on their careers.

Can we revisit the small squad thing. Do I remember right that it’s the IRFU pushing for smaller squads? What’s our squad size like compared to other provinces?

Players like Reidy, Herring and Ludik are needed as the standard for squad from top to bottom. Players who would have been relatively unknown but very very solid for us. We needed to have signed 3/4 more players than we did in the summer.

Also, in light of the sever lack of Ulster born players, the Jackson and Olding situation still really annoys me. Being found not guilty in Ireland means losing your job and effectively being forced abroad in order to keep your career.

In the states, a r*** allegation is not as big a deal and you continue with you Supreme Court nomination with the support of the president.

I dont think we want to go down the route of the US mind you Clive.

In terms of the small squad the only thing I would say is we are hampered by our own signings.

As I understand it we have

Coetzee, SVDM and Deysel as NIQ/projects
Leinster have Fardy, Gibson-Park, Lowe
Munster have Kleyn, Cloete, Taute, Botha.

Now munster have barely used Taute this season and Botha tends to bench too. You could argue we havent been allowed to fill our NIQ quota but its down to who is available also in a world cup year. We Frak up massively with SVDM and Deysel hasnt been massively better. Coetzee im pleased to say was heroic I thought on Friday and hopefully he brings more of the same.

No one to blame but ourselves im afraid. For instance we have 4 LHs on the books with Warwick, SVDM and McCall with O'Sullivan backing up from the academy. None appear to be the requisite quality with O'Sullivan obviously only just beginning his career. Next season we have no contracted NIQS/projects. If we are allowed to sign at least two new players (if Coetzee remains fit you would hope we re-sign him)then it would go a long way to papering over cracks. For me we need to replace SVDM with a top class LH and a top class lock to come in. If we got that and retained Coetzee I would be happy

Interestingly though, Deysel looked very good with Munster. Perhaps we aren't utilising him correctly. I think he has looked by far at his best in the games he played at 6 with Coetzee at 8. Deysel being used to do a lot of grunt work particularly in defense, freed up Coetzee for carrying.

6. Deysel
7. Murphy
8. Coetzee

Is what we really need to see. Murphy focusing on the breakdown, Coetzee carrying and Deysel doing a lot of grunt work.

TBH, I’m not at all that about our NIQ signings. When you can only have 3/4, they are not going to be the difference. You can quite easily have all your NIQs injured at same time.

For me, we need to re-sign ex Ulster players, find more players like Burns from overseas, and sign a good project. We also shouldn’t have let players like Diack go IMO.

But yea our NIQs need to be better. Deysel and Van Der Merve have been both awful signings. VDM more than Deysel of course. Look at how good Lowe is for Leinster and he’s not a single All Black cap.

Yea, we didn’t want ‘dead wood’ blocking the opportunities of youngsters. But if that’s true, why do we still have a 25yr old Nelson in the squad.

There’s a fine line between giving youngsters game time and being the whipping boys of a league with embarrassing result after embarrassing result. That may not be how this season pans out, but I’m not confident yet for sure.

clivemcl wrote:TBH, I’m not at all that about our NIQ signings. When you can only have 3/4, they are not going to be the difference. You can quite easily have all your NIQs injured at same time.

For me, we need to re-sign ex Ulster players, find more players like Burns from overseas, and sign a good project. We also shouldn’t have let players like Diack go IMO.

But yea our NIQs need to be better. Deysel and Van Der Merve have been both awful signings. VDM more than Deysel of course. Look at how good Lowe is for Leinster and he’s not a single All Black cap.

Yea, we didn’t want ‘dead wood’ blocking the opportunities of youngsters. But if that’s true, why do we still have a 25yr old Nelson in the squad.

There’s a fine line between giving youngsters game time and being the shipping boys of a league with embarrassing result after embarrassing result. That may not be how this season pans out, but I’m not confident yet for sure.

Tell that to any 4 of Afoa, Muller, Big Nick, Pienaar and Payne. A LH to help bring through O'Sullivan, a lock to take the strain of AoC as well as Coetzee and we would be a different proposition. We would be looking at Edinburgh in the rear view mirror imo. As it is we have been beat up by Edinburgh, Munster and Connacht already this season. Of course you're right in terms of how we use the NIQs and we cant rely on them to the same extent that we used to. We need to be smarter about how and when to use them and sign them based on ability to impart their experience as well as their on field prowess. Its not easy but when its done correctly it can be transformative. Look at the influence Nacewa, Elsom, Fardy and now Lowe have had for Leinster. Contrast that to Sykes, Douglas etc. The difference being when leinster get that part of the game right they invariably win trophies. When we got it right we lost two finals. We get it wrong and we are struggling to make the playoffs and the Champions Cup

Your point isn’t without merit. But Nelsen hasn’t exactly become the dogs dangs with Piutau training alongside him for a few years. Better NIQs will play there part in an improving Ulster, but I still fitmly believe we need more and  better squad players.

Right now it’s first teamers or complete novices. No in between, apart from the likes of Nelson.

You are 100 percent right Clive but small Paul became a passable back up scrum half from playing alongside pienaar. I don’t know what (if anything) hendo learned from muller and wasn’t one of the reasons we gave for retaining pienaar also what he had done for Jackson/olding etc?

Remember we held out Leinster at the reds with Kyle McCall at TH in a match when we weren’t in great form but fought tooth and nail because we had men like muller in the team. The squad players you mention will hopefully primarily be Ulster born and bred and if not some Irish guys with a point to prove

Standulstermen wrote:
I've defended Cunningham in the past but realistically going through a season with (potentially) only 4 locks you are willing to use with one on restricted gametime is a catastrophic mistake.

It's not just 4 though, we also have Browne (though I'm not sure what his story is), Dalton and Regan. Daltons out injured again I think though

clivemcl wrote:
Can we revisit the small squad thing. Do I remember right that it’s the IRFU pushing for smaller squads? What’s our squad size like compared to other provinces?

There's a good argument for smaller squads, money!

If budgets don't grow quick enough there won't be enough to go around to afford everyone. New signings every year cost more, existing contracts getting renewed usually mean a pay increase. Teams in England too are facing the same challenges

Thus far the new backroom medical staff seem to have made zero percent difference to injuries and fitness - were they brought in because they were cheaper?

The Great Aukster wrote:Well played Connacht - fully deserved the win. Rory was the only man who might have made the Connacht team. McFarland will struggle to keep making excuses being the man in charge of the worst Ulster team in 58 years. He was seriously unimpressive in the post match interview, blaming the ref - stupid of him.

I agree with that, this is the worst Ulster side I've seen in terms of players. Rory, Marcel, Cooney and Henderson apart it is very average looking, therefore McFarland has a huge task ahead.

In terms of the referee well I think for the most part he called it right, the most arguable call was probably the obstruction for O'Hallaran's try, I think a penalty should have been given. That said it looked like Stockdale had grazed the dead ball line before scoring so Ulster can't feel too hard done by.

The biggest worry is how our scrum was demolished, that is a big concern heading into Europe.

On the positive side when we got the ball into the wider channels we did create opportunities and fought back well at the end but it is difficult to see much scope for improvement with the panel available.

clivemcl wrote:

Can we revisit the small squad thing. Do I remember right that it’s the IRFU pushing for smaller squads? What’s our squad size like compared to other provinces?

Why would the IRFU want smaller squads, its the opposite? We can have as many players as we want but have to pay for them.

Ulster took a strategic decision a few years back to pay big wages to a smaller group of player at the expense of having a bigger squad. This is something The IRFU have been pushing us to address by developing more homegrown players.

Player wise this year we have similar numbers to Leinster and a lot more than Connacht if you include development contracts. It's depth of quality is the issue rather than depth, beyond a handful of players the standard is not there and to me the issue is coaching.

When you have an under power pack and half back pairing under performing, you can kind of make up for it with backs who can make something from nothing, and we do miss Addison for that.
Really hoping he returns soon as he was one of the few players who looked to be standing out.
The first few games though we a least saw some good momentum coming from offloads and good support runs. Unfortunately the past few games, the offloads have not been on, and have mostly led to us losing possession.

With Moore, Best, Hendy, Murphy, Coetzee and Deysel all availalable and with Gilroy/Speight/Addison back in the mix, we can possibly right a few wrongs.

But that's the very problem, you can't survive a season in the modern game relying on select first teamers.

The biggest difference between us and the good teams is that the good teams (like Leinster) still perform well with key players missing.

We said we never game young guys game-time and that's why we struggled when young guys were thrown in at deep end.

So... how long do we have to wait before our 'squad' of young guys can be relied upon to perform well when the main guys are absent?

EDIT: sorry Rodders, didn't see your post while writing mine. I agree gametime is only part of the remedy for youngsters. They need to be better coached too. I fear the coaching may not be up to scratch. That said it's pretty early in McFarlands career to be too sore on him about that.

I have put a thread up for our Euro games and would appreciate any input you folks may have, particularly discussing teh strengths and weaknesses of your squad. Thanks

https://www.606v2.com/t68035-epcr-champions-cup-pool-4-thread

clivemcl wrote:
So... how long do we have to wait before our 'squad' of young guys can be relied upon to perform well when the main guys are absent?

I actually think apart from the front row getting schooled it was a pretty good performance from Ulster. We were big underdogs, so to make a game of it with 14 men was a good effort from an inexperienced side.

If those 2 tries had been given it would have been the best performance of the season, as it is the last 2 weeks have been a reality check heading into the champions cup.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
So... how long do we have to wait before our 'squad' of young guys can be relied upon to perform well when the main guys are absent?

I actually think apart from the front row getting schooled it was a pretty good performance from Ulster. We were big underdogs, so to make a game of it with 14 men was a good effort from an inexperienced side.

If those 2 tries had been given it would have been the best performance of the season, as it is the last 2 weeks have been a reality check heading into the champions cup.

I said over the weekend, Ulster still could have won the game with 14 men and those two tries disallowed but for inaccuracies close to the try line. From poor lineouts and not looking after the ball, Ulster could have ended up with a flattering scoreline.

The younger guys played well for me and it was some of the older heads that weren't at the races

The amount of TMOs is really getting ridiculous. Captains are allowed to now pretty much go up to the ref and request TMO views.

For the sake of the game would you not prefer to see marginal forward passes given the benefit of the doubt even if occasionally you end up on the receiving end of it?

SOOOOOO stop-start!

If marginal 'ahead of the kicker' calls were given the benefit of the doubt Ulster would have had a winning TBP last Friday.

The Great Aukster wrote:If marginal 'ahead of the kicker' calls were given the benefit of the doubt Ulster would have had a winning TBP last Friday.

It's just part and parcel of the game. It's only ever called up if there's a try scored. If we drew the ref's attention to every single instance in a game where a player was offside (stepped up before ball was played) or ahead of kicker etc... it would be a very dull game.

It's one thing if the TMO happens to see something and has a word in the ref's ear. But I do feel we should put an end to the players and captains requesting TMO's.
If ref, touch judges and TMO's didn't see anything, then let it be. Accept it. Play more rugby.

I think players should be highlighting things at times, the obstruction for Connacht try might never have been looked at if Rory didn't talk to the ref. He should have saved his breath though

It's about balance, some refs are afraid to make decisions and just review everything whereas some will back themselves

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
I've defended Cunningham in the past but realistically going through a season with (potentially) only 4 locks you are willing to use with one on restricted gametime is a catastrophic mistake.

It's not just 4 though, we also have Browne (though I'm not sure what his story is), Dalton and Regan. Daltons out injured again I think though

Thats why I said willing to use Marty. Neither Dalton or Regan has been a regular in the A's nevermind darkened the door of the seniors. Browne too. Browne isnt an option if he isnt considered which again means....why is he there?

Standulstermen wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
I've defended Cunningham in the past but realistically going through a season with (potentially) only 4 locks you are willing to use with one on restricted gametime is a catastrophic mistake.

It's not just 4 though, we also have Browne (though I'm not sure what his story is), Dalton and Regan. Daltons out injured again I think though

Thats why I said willing to use Marty. Neither Dalton or Regan has been a regular in the A's nevermind darkened the door of the seniors. Browne too. Browne isnt an option if he isnt considered which again means....why is he there?

Daltons been injured, he made his comeback against Scarlets As I think. Think he got injured again since then

Marty Moore is in contention this eek, could be huge for Ulster and give the scrum a bit of power it's been missing

Rea got a 4 week ban for that Red card. That's harsh

neilthom7 wrote:Rea got a 4 week ban for that Red card.  That's harsh

One week would have been harsh

marty2086 wrote:Marty Moore is in contention this eek, could be huge for Ulster and give the scrum a bit of power it's been missing

The scrum has been the only reliable bit of Tigers play so far. If you could please be as weak in that department as possible so we could have a sporting chance that would be appreciated.

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Rea got a 4 week ban for that Red card.  That's harsh

One week would have been harsh

When you consider the fact that there was a 50% reduction on the ban from the original 8 week sanction the whole thing just screams of madness.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Marty Moore is in contention this eek, could be huge for Ulster and give the scrum a bit of power it's been missing

The scrum has been the only reliable bit of Tigers play so far. If you could please be as weak in that department as possible so we could have a sporting chance that would be appreciated.

If the Tigers' scrum has even the remotest iota of piff in it the Ulster scrum will be rampaging backwards enough to probably break even more records.

4 weeks for unavoidable collision with clean record.
5 weeks for having a poor discipline recond and hitting someone who is defenseless and prone on the ground. 6 weeks for a deliberate head stamp.
Sure they are all about the same?
Winder what Olding will get for his at the weekend which was worse, since it was worse it'll need to be about 5 weeks the same as beaustad got, doesnt seam right does it.

A loss tomorrow and we should throw the towel in for Europe, not rusk key players and focus on Pro14. Agree or disagree?

clivemcl wrote:A loss tomorrow and we should throw the towel in for Europe, not rusk key players and focus on Pro14. Agree or disagree?

I don't think a loss this weekend is the end of the campaign, Racing aren't exactly unbeatable at home. They've lost twice already at home in the league, Tigers are beatable at home and Ulster go to Scarlets in the league a few weeks before the European game. Get a result in that and it could set them up to go back and do it again

Agreed, it'd be a bit early for throwing in the towel but I would agree after a few rounds, if we're in the situation where it looks like all is lost we should consider sending out the kids in Europe and concentrate on qualifying for next season. We don't want to be dragged through by the skin of our teeth again, my nerves couldn't cope.

How close would I be with this squad:

Gilroy
Kernohan
Addison
McCloskey
Stockdale
Burns
Cooney

Warwick
Best
Kane
O'Connor
Hendy
Coetzee
Murphy
Timoney

VDM , Herring, Moore, Treadwell,Reidy, Shanahan , Lowry, Curtis.

There's only a couple of hours left to find out.

I do think we'll see a step up in performance from Ulster, fist sell out of the season, European opener, Leicester and two consecutive defeats plus a strong team

Just hope we see some tweaks in attack especially going up against a porous Leicester defence, they give up tries and have conceded more than 30 points in 4 of their 6 games so far and in 3 of those it was over 40 and averaging over 4 tries against a game

Interesting listening to the podcast yesterday. The guys who watched Burns before he arrived at Ulster say his style has previously been much better, more running and attacking and kicking.

Is it tactics just from McFarland? Maybe this will be the weekend he suddenly shows a bit more flare. He's basically just been shipping the ball on every time he's got it since he arrived. And defences have been right up in our faces.

Apparantly the stats from Connacht game shows that Burns carried one metre. One metre.

McPhillips though when he came on was more aggressive in his attacking play, is it maybe a case of McFarland asking him to curb some of his instincts and Burns basically shutting them all off?

Connacht at times, especially in the first half, had a 14/15 man defensive line and there were acres of space behind to kick into but Ulster never did it. It was only when the wingers got the ball did we kick in behind for a chase and usually got something from it.

I heard that stat about Burns and wondered did it factor in the occasion he got hit from Cooneys awful pass and lost ground

I think we can confidently say, for one reason or another, we have not seen Burns at anything like what he's capable of.

At least we should really benefit from having Addison back.

Can you imagine Addison running support lines for McCloskey's offloads...

aaaand here comes my undying hopefulness again. When will I learn!

Go and read Jonathan Bradleys new book on the 99 team and then you'll start getting romantic notions of winning it 20 years on

19 out of 23 Pete

M Lowry; C Gilroy, W Addison, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; B Burns, J Cooney; A Warwick, R Best, R Kane; A O’Connor, I Henderson; M Coetzee, J Murphy, N Timoney.

Subs: A McBurney, E O’Sullivan, M Moore, K Treadwell, S Reidy, D Shanahan, A Curtis, A Kernohan.

Interesting. Don't know a lot about Lowry. But 15? That's a pretty unexpected shout I imagine? A risky one?
Has he experience there? Pretty short for getting under high balls...

You would have though, Kernohan starting and Gilroy at 15.

Better ......... but still renders previous selections fairly inexplicable.

So we had a home game last week where we picked Nelson. For the Big European game this week we are throwing Lowry in at the deep-end. I'm struggling to see the logic. Has McFarland now realised he made a mistake previously? If so then a) good and well done for correcting that and b) why wasn't that obviously from the Munster game?

On the Burns thing in general, I don't see it with him. Maybe I'm wrong but we've burned 6 games now where he's been poor to bang average. I'm all for giving people chances if we feel it'll be rewarded but my concern is how much more spend is required for how much more improvement. 2 seasons and we'll get a Pro14 standard player? For people who have seen more of him than I, what is his potential ceiling as a player - because this talk of international calls ups seem way off the mark.

I'm guessing Keronhan is getting a rest and he's just rotating.

Backrow composition suggests that's where they see each of those players for the long run.

Has McBurney overtaken Andrew? I presume Herring is injured?

Looking at certain positions we've been incredibly lucky with injuries so far. Loosehead, Lock, etc.

marty2086 wrote:19 out of 23 Pete

M Lowry; C Gilroy, W Addison, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; B Burns, J Cooney; A Warwick, R Best, R Kane; A O’Connor, I Henderson; M Coetzee, J Murphy, N Timoney.

Subs: A McBurney, E O’Sullivan, M Moore, K Treadwell, S Reidy, D Shanahan, A Curtis, A Kernohan.

Closer than I usually get and I will stand by my selection at fullback with Gilroy at 15 and Kernohan at 14 as it's going to be tricky conditions under the high ball tomorrow evening so the deep end could literally be a deep and for Lowry. With his stature drowning may be an issue never mind getting up for the high balls.

Redman wrote:
On the Burns thing in general, I don't see it with him.  Maybe I'm wrong but we've burned 6 games now where he's been poor to bang average.  I'm all for giving people chances if we feel it'll be rewarded but my concern is how much more spend is required for how much more improvement.  2 seasons and we'll get a Pro14 standard player?  For people who have seen more of him than I, what is his potential ceiling as a player - because this talk of international calls ups seem way off the mark.   

Burns is a strange one, maybe Geoff will make a glorious return and give us some insight there but he definitely isn't playing how he played for Gloucester. Whether that's tactical or Burns changing his game I don't know but he is offering little at 10 and one of the younger guys would be a better option there unless something changes with him

Redman wrote:

Has McBurney overtaken Andrew?  I presume Herring is injured?

Herring was on the injured list earlier this week but Andrew has been hard done by in my opinion the last year or so. He's been one of our most consistent performers and I don't think he's had a bad game, he's a good ball carrier, a decent scrummager and his lineouts are solid. McBurney probably has the bigger upside though, he can be our number 2 for years to come if he delivers on his potential

Redman wrote:Looking at certain positions we've been incredibly lucky with injuries so far.  Loosehead, Lock, etc.  

You say that but we've really flogged AOC this season so far and we'll lose Henderson in a few weeks so really need some of the young locks fit and in the squad

Burns definitely isn't playing to the level he was at Gloucester. However, I always felt international talk was a bit premature.

SirBurger wrote:Burns definitely isn't playing to the level he was at Gloucester. However, I always felt international talk was a bit premature.

Burns playing at his best I think would be good competition for Carberry as backup to Sexton. I think that's more where the idea of him breaking into the Ireland squad came into it