England Training Squad

by **LondonTiger** Thu 02 Aug 2018, 9:51 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/

Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Sep 2018, 1:38 pm

Do we have a Bath cheerleader?

by lostinwales Mon 17 Sep 2018, 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do we have a Bath cheerleader?

Tighthead maybe, but nobody as remotely one track as a certain Saracen supporter

by Geordie Mon 17 Sep 2018, 2:12 pm

Where is said mentioned Saracen supporter these days....

by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Sep 2018, 2:30 pm

We forego the clamour for Rhodes (which I'm sure you'll enjoy gf), Lewington and Spencer anyhow.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Sep 2018, 2:36 pm

Hamilton and flatman bigging up and half expecting ed slater to be involved again. His form is back to where it was when he was up against a young messiah called Maro: hough his knees meant he'd never be up to playing internationals though?

by Exiledinborders Mon 17 Sep 2018, 2:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hamilton and flatman bigging up and half expecting ed slater to be involved again. His form is back to where it was when he was up against a young messiah called Maro: hough his knees meant he'd never be up to playing internationals though?

Slater does give genuine grunt in a way that some of the other options do not. I think it depends on what sort of pack Jones wants. He is also a leader.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 17 Sep 2018, 3:50 pm

I'm not sure Slater quite has that quality to get in amongst it (a bit like Green for us). Excellent GP locks but not any better than the plethora of locks we already have.

by BamBam Mon 17 Sep 2018, 3:53 pm

Bloody Gallagher.. was sat here for 30 seconds trying to figure out what GP locks were

by Geordie Mon 17 Sep 2018, 4:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We forego the clamour for Rhodes (which I'm sure you'll enjoy gf), Lewington and Spencer anyhow.

Over the moon! Very Happy

by propdavid_london Mon 17 Sep 2018, 4:31 pm

As someone said earlier in this thread - I think Slater has a chance of getting called up.

The names in the hat at the moment are -
Lawes, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Isekwe. I wouldn't be too surprised to see either Kruis or Isekwe drop out for the likes of Slater.

It is such a competitive position for England. I would also think of that bunch Kruis (who hasn't played much) is the more likely to drop out as Isekwe covers the back row too.

Eddie also likes his wild cards - I wouldn't be too surprised if he pulled that other U20s lock (Kpoku) into the squad as an apprentice type player too.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 17 Sep 2018, 6:21 pm

BamBam wrote:Bloody Gallagher.. was sat here for 30 seconds trying to figure out what GP locks were

Haha....I had to Google it before typing it!

by Geordie Mon 17 Sep 2018, 8:53 pm

Well just watching the highlights programme ( I appreciate it doesn't show everything) ...and seems to be a number of England players looking in form.

The key ones though...
Slade pushing for that 13 spot. Can he take his game to the next level though?
Mercer had a good game. Great carrying in the loose AND in the tight.
Cockasaniga got huge praise for his performance. We genuinely lack some muscle and power in that backline...

and George Ford seemed to be having fun out there.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Sep 2018, 6:32 am

Ford is seemingly liking the extra freedom that Murphy is giving him. He's not only looked a bit more of a threat ball in hand, but he's getting stuck in defensively a touch more. I'm not sure I'd go with him for England, but he's certainly fighting his corner.

Never been overly convinced with Slade tbh, especially at 13. We need some kind of running/physical threat in one of the centre slots, I don't think Slade really gives this.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:14 am

I think Slade will be in - Eddy likes versatility & he can play anywhere in the back line & probably kicks as long as anyone we have.
I think he looks to have bulked up a bit but still has great pace.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Cokanasiga starting outside him either!

by Gooseberry Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:26 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote: but he's getting stuck in defensively a touch more

Tigers have shipped 114 points in 3 games and have by far the worst defensive record in the Jeff this season. I dont see that as much of an endorsement that hes actually doing a good job Wink

Really thopugh if Jones were overly concerned about the tackling/commitment of his 10's he wouldnt have Cipriani and Ford as his options in the first place.
Ball in hand Ford does have his swagger back and seems to be getting things right. Ciprinani too is continuing his good form this season.

Slades always been the nearly man, but his versatility does make him very useful on the bench.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:47 am

I notice that Quins were trying to "hide" Marcus Smith defensively this weekend - putting him at Hooker/BS wing on defensive lineouts

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:51 am

From today's Times:

Owen Slot wrote:

Clubs to monitor uber-boss Eddie Jones in fragile training deal

Possibly the most popular rugby story we have published in The Times was the one last week where we revealed new research that showed that training could be bad for you. The response from amateur club players was loud and large in number; they thought that this was the best news ever.

At the very top of the game in England, though, it is not quite so amusing. On the one hand, the RFU and World Rugby are exploring the dangers of overtraining and analysing how this can lead to raised injury levels. On the other, there is an England head coach whose training sessions are notoriously intense and who believes, unswervingly, that they have to be if England are to have a chance of winning the World Cup.

Attitudes to the methods of Eddie Jones have fluctuated, funnily enough, according to how England are doing. In his first season, pitch-side observers at England training were flabbergasted at its pace and intensity, as well as its brilliant organisation, down to the minutest detail. That was when they won a grand slam and went the year unbeaten.

Now that England have finished one place from bottom in the Six Nations and lost five of their previous six Tests, observers are also flabbergasted. Some have said that the intensity was so high that the players’ best was obviously going to have been spent by the time they got to Saturday. From finesse to fatigue in a few easy steps.

If you study the figures, though, Jones is also busy proving that training can indeed be bad for you. The RFU’s last annual injury audit showed an average of 2.9 injuries for every 1,000 hours of training during club sessions. The figures for England are not directly comparable but they showed 7.7 injuries per 1,000 hours of rugby skills training and another 0.8 per 1,000 hours of strength and conditioning.

These figures were for the 2016-17 season. Expect them to go up for the season just gone when it was felt that England training-ground injuries had become an epidemic. The clubs became so discontented by the number of their players who got injured last season that they commissioned their own report into the matter. In total, 19 players were injured during England training.

“Enough,” the clubs cried. And they really flexed their muscles. Yet herein we have a problem; there cannot be a head coach in the world who would be happy to be told how to train his athletes. Least of all Jones.

This all comes to a head next week when England meet for their first proper training camp of the season. Does Jones revise his methods? Does he ratchet down the intensity? Does he actually believe that his players were fatigued in the Six Nations? This would be thoroughly unEddie-like.

Yet he would be mad if he did not listen to the science, which is fresh and informative. And, no, he isn’t mad. The RFU’s own analysis reveals that the intensity itself is not so much the issue; the issue is the jump from club training levels to international.

Yes, international rugby is harder and faster, so Jones should train his players harder and faster. The focus this season will be on bringing the players gradually up to speed. Some players will be given extra work to do at their clubs to prepare themselves for the demands with England. Yet Jones will have to be sympathetic to the players’ training habits. You could call this a compromise. Or you could call it a step forward. The England conditioning staff will have to communicate better with their counterparts at the clubs — and that makes sense.

It does not stop there. The clubs want to know exactly what Jones is doing with their players, and he will have to tell them in advance. The directors of rugby at the clubs will be sent breakdowns of the sessions: how long, how intense, what exactly they will be doing.

Again, in theory, this is a step forward: the two stakeholders, club and country, will be working more closely together. In practice, the clubs can watch more closely and hold Jones further to account. They will even have a representative at training who will be monitoring the sessions.

This feels unstable. Telling an uber-boss how much training is right and wrong feels precarious. We now step gingerly into the final year of Jones’s World Cup campaign. He has big strides to take and they are being checked all the way.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:58 am

I think that's a big step LT.

You need some high intensity sessions...absolutely, but not ALL the time which is what Jones appears to do.

It wll be interesting to see how it goes.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Sep 2018, 10:57 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote: but he's getting stuck in defensively a touch more

Tigers have shipped 114 points in 3 games and have by far the worst defensive record in the Jeff this season. I dont see that as much of an endorsement that hes actually doing a good job Really thopugh if Jones were overly concerned about the tackling/commitment of his 10's he wouldnt have Cipriani and Ford as his options in the first place.
Ball in hand Ford does have his swagger back and seems to be getting things right. Ciprinani too is continuing his good form this season.

Slades always been the nearly man, but his versatility does make him very useful on the bench.

I'm not sure Ford can be accounted for ALL 114 pts.......I think his one up tackling and general physicality has been pretty good. Even seem to recall him being responsible for some kind of turnover at the weekend.

by propdavid_london Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:58 am

LondonTiger wrote:I notice that Quins were trying to "hide" Marcus Smith defensively this weekend - putting him at Hooker/BS wing on defensive lineouts

That didn't work for the 1st Mercer try though!
For a no.8 that looks quite slight - he does seem to carry very well.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Sep 2018, 12:08 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I notice that Quins were trying to "hide" Marcus Smith defensively this weekend - putting him at Hooker/BS wing on defensive lineouts
That didn't work for the 1st Mercer try though!
For a no.8 that looks quite slight - he does seem to carry very well.

Why I said trying Very Happy

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 18 Sep 2018, 12:21 pm

What worries me is the amount of tries all sides seem to be shipping. No one seems to be able to keep a tight defence, not even Sarries or Exeter.

Is it that defences have become so weak or that the attack has become so much better. I expected things to change a bit with the new reffing of the breakdown offering more turnovers etc. But not multiple 8 try games every week.

How will this pan out when it comes to the AIs?

by propdavid_london Tue 18 Sep 2018, 12:28 pm

Well, 1 excuse I read a while back about last seasons poor performances was that the breakdown was refereed differently domestically to how it was refereed internationally - does anyone think this has changed?

Personally I put the majority of the poor performances down to players being knackered or drafted into the side before they were fully fit from injury.

Certainly these high scoring games are more akin to what I expected to see from a SuperRugby match.

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 12:49 pm

Didn't we have a bunch of high scoring games this time last year?

Then the weather gets worse and teams get their act together on defense (and the injuries build up) and the scores go down.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:01 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I notice that Quins were trying to "hide" Marcus Smith defensively this weekend - putting him at Hooker/BS wing on defensive lineouts
That didn't work for the 1st Mercer try though!
For a no.8 that looks quite slight - he does seem to carry very well.

Mercer has been very vocal about improving his carrying and specifically the collision area. We know he can fly in the loose, but there was evidence this weekend that he's starting to carry effectively in the tight as well. He's young, 6'3 / 6'4 and will put weight on...so it bodes well!

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:09 pm

And to be honest...his stats arent slight compared to other 8's in world rugby....

Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.15)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)

Billy Vunipola: 188cm; 130kg (BMI: 36.78)
Nathan Hughes: 196cm; 125kg (BMI: 32.54)
Ben Morgan: 191cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.8)
Thomas Waldron: 185cm; 114kg (BMI: 33.31)

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:13 pm

It's his brain which will make him a top 8.

by BamBam Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:16 pm

Its probably the Heaslip / Faletau / Read type of 8 that he should be compared to physically, so he has another 5kg of muscle to pack on

I'm quite surprised that Picamoles is "only" 116kg

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:36 pm

Yeah Bam...I thought Picamoles was heavier than that.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:46 pm

Mercer can also play 6...which alongside Billy V would be interesting.

Then Underhill or Curry at 7?

Where does that leave Mr Robshaw

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mercer can also play 6...which alongside Billy V would be interesting.

Then Underhill or Curry at 7?

Where does that leave Mr Robshaw

Unless Robshaw's form goes to sh1te he'll stay 6 for the RWC but Mercer must have as good a claim as any to succeed him. I also think he could make a good captain.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:07 pm

Mitchell it is.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/mitchell-and-wisemantel-appointed-england/?sf197904195=1

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mitchell it is.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/mitchell-and-wisemantel-appointed-england/?sf197904195=1

Cue Celts all telling us how terrible Mitchell is, a few England fans talking about the glory years where he was forwards coach with England and a whole bunch of meh (with some relief that there is at least someone there.)

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:22 pm

On a serious note what is the view on Wisemantel?

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:On a serious note what is the view on Wisemantel?

Who is Wisemantel?

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:On a serious note what is the view on Wisemantel?

Who is Wisemantel?

Assuming this is an honest question (and not of the Shane who type) - Australian attack coach. Worked with us on the SA tour now installed full time.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:52 pm

I think there were improvements in the summer. Do think it's a.role which can't be covered by Jones himself.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:On a serious note what is the view on Wisemantel?

Who is Wisemantel?

Assuming this is an honest question (and not of the Shane who type) - Australian attack coach. Worked with us on the SA tour now installed full time.

That actually was a serious question. I had no idea he was there for the SA tour.

by lostinwales Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:On a serious note what is the view on Wisemantel?

Who is Wisemantel?

Assuming this is an honest question (and not of the Shane who type) - Australian attack coach. Worked with us on the SA tour now installed full time.

That actually was a serious question. I had no idea he was there for the SA tour.

Neither did I - I just read the RFU blurb attached above.

Apologies for the 'honest question' line - I think I have been spending too much time on Twitter...

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:23 pm

ha ha...no probs.

It feels at times like Eddie Jones is just making it up as he goes along.

by Geordie Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:25 pm

PS..now that you mention it...whos Shane?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:39 pm

Geraghty

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