England Training Squad

by **LondonTiger** Thu 02 Aug 2018, 9:51 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/

Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 13 Aug 2018, 11:22 pm

Shaun Edwards comments to Walesonline suggest the RFU made no approach to him this time (he mentions turning down an offer from Andy Robinson in 2006 because his brother had just died). It also sounds like he might have been receptive.

by yappysnap Tue 14 Aug 2018, 1:08 am

Yea the way he talks sounds like he may have wanted the gig if offered. And he'd have had long term ambitions for a more senior role.

Instead we have this situation, which is just nuts.

by Geordie Tue 14 Aug 2018, 10:44 am

John Mitchell or Shaun Edwards...I know who I'd rather have!!!

by robbo277 Tue 14 Aug 2018, 5:29 pm

Would Edwards have walked away from Wales now? A year out before the World Cup? Because we need someone now, not in 2019 when his contract is up.

It is a bit baffling if we didn't even speak to him, but they might have not wanted to make a high profile approach and then climb down later if they thought it was a non-starter.

by kingelderfield Tue 14 Aug 2018, 5:32 pm

Who are the best English defence coaches?
Saracens certainly had a thing with the wolf pack mantra and Farrell and previously Edwards have both achieved Lions success.
Sale's league defence seemed to improve Cipriani's attitude and importantly tackle technique.
As for Michell.....well it obviously suggests the title of defence coach is in reality a red herring. I think Jones is looking for another head with international experience who he can bounce ideas off. Its all quite left field and doesn't offer an obvious success arrow.

by BamBam Tue 14 Aug 2018, 5:41 pm

Would have been ideal to nick him off Wales too, if nothing else we would have had real insight into the defensive system they've been playing for a while

RFU blazers surely must have taken all of the above into account before not approaching him

by kingelderfield Tue 14 Aug 2018, 7:18 pm

The more i think about this the more it shouts as a Jones' appointment, not selected or driven by the Blazers per se.
Ultimately its a superficial consideration that i doubt will ring true against the really comprehensive organisations such as NZ, Ire and the like.

by hugehandoff Tue 14 Aug 2018, 11:30 pm

Terrible news for poor Anthony Watson.

England and Bath back Anthony Watson faces an extended, unspecified lay-off from after re-tearing an Achilles tendon in pre-season.

The 24-year-old suffered the initial injury while playing full-back in England's 24-15 Six Nations defeat by Ireland in March this year.

And he missed the end of Bath's Premiership campaign plus the national team's summer tour of South Africa.

Bath boss Todd Blackadder called the latest setback a "start-again injury."

And so it bloody starts again for England Grrr furious

by hugehandoff Tue 14 Aug 2018, 11:52 pm

And apparently now JJ out until Xmas as he aggravated the same ankle injury that made him miss the SA tour.

One thing to lose your players in matches, but this is seriously unlucky (or bad management). At least it saves Bath the annoyance of EJ's knackering them instead!

by doctor_grey Wed 15 Aug 2018, 4:25 am

Tearing an Achilles ain't easy. Tearing it twice (if that is really what it is) points directly at his medical care. So, does this mean Ashton's odds go up?

And who plays 13? Mike Tindall? Phil Vickery?

by yappysnap Wed 15 Aug 2018, 5:46 am

I don't think he tore it twice, it reads as the first op failed and they have to re-tear it to fix it this second time? I don't know if I'm reading that right though.

Tbh a long break and back for the 6ns could be good for both of them.

And you never know some one else may play out of their skins to get the shirt.

by robbo277 Wed 15 Aug 2018, 7:37 am

doctor_grey wrote:Tearing an Achilles ain't easy. Tearing it twice (if that is really what it is) points directly at his medical care. So, does this mean Ashton's odds go up?

And who plays 13? Mike Tindall? Phil Vickery?

Is it too early for the M word? Te'o is also returning from injury and will possibly be in contention.

From the training squad selected, the options are Slade, Lozowski and Marchant. Or he could go really left-field with Olowofela.

by Geordie Wed 15 Aug 2018, 10:25 am

kingelderfield wrote:Who are the best English defence coaches?
Saracens certainly had a thing with the wolf pack mantra and Farrell and previously Edwards have both achieved Lions success.
Sale's league defence seemed to improve Cipriani's attitude and importantly tackle technique.
As for Michell.....well it obviously suggests the title of defence coach is in reality a red herring. I think Jones is looking for another head with international experience who he can bounce ideas off. Its all quite left field and doesn't offer an obvious success arrow.

John Wells is doing a not bad job...but sorry, England cant have him! raspberry

by Geordie Wed 15 Aug 2018, 10:34 am

doctor_grey wrote:Tearing an Achilles ain't easy. Tearing it twice (if that is really what it is) points directly at his medical care. So, does this mean Ashton's odds go up?

And who plays 13? Mike Tindall? Phil Vickery?

Don't worry the wingers have just been keeping the place warm for Adam Radwan and Zach Kibirige.... Very Happy

Seriously though looking at 13....ill say again....why is Sam James not being looked at??

by Gooseberry Wed 15 Aug 2018, 11:58 am

robbo277 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Tearing an Achilles ain't easy. Tearing it twice (if that is really what it is) points directly at his medical care. So, does this mean Ashton's odds go up?

And who plays 13? Mike Tindall? Phil Vickery?

Is it too early for the M word?

Yes its too early to be talking about his next injury just yet, at least give him a week or two.

by **RDW** Wed 15 Aug 2018, 6:37 pm

Jersey Police: “This morning 30 year old Daniel Cipriani was charged with common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and disorderly on licensed premises. He has been remanded in custody until a court appearance at magistrates court at 10am tmrw.” #cipriani

by lostinwales Wed 15 Aug 2018, 7:42 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Jersey Police: “This morning 30 year old Daniel Cipriani was charged with common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and disorderly on licensed premises. He has been remanded in custody until a court appearance at magistrates court at 10am tmrw.” #cipriani

Yep. Could have had a nice Indian summer playing for England but that could very much be it. Might as well change his name to Richard Head.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 15 Aug 2018, 8:15 pm

Ah well. At least we can put the cipriani roadshow to bed now.

by Mr Bounce Wed 15 Aug 2018, 8:24 pm

What an absolute Plank. Doubt we'll see him in an England shirt again now. A definite case of "what if?"

Guess we'll now get George "Tackle a 6ft 4" centre at chest height then wonder way he's barged out of the way" Ford until the end of time. Be good if he can actually find a bit of his previous form. He's been poor recently.

by hugehandoff Wed 15 Aug 2018, 10:08 pm

His ability to self destruct is impressive. Makes a lot of sense now going to Gloucester instead of Toulon Doh

But he has not been found guilty of anything yet (aka Ben Stokes and the criminal burden of proof instead of the civil which might also rescue Danny) so we will have to wait some time to see the outcome.

by Pie Thu 16 Aug 2018, 3:24 am

he's like the English version of Henson, what a fool he just had his hands on a great opportunity after years of being in exile. I expect this is the end though if one coach is likely to overlook this it would probably be Jones...not sure the RFU will though.

by yappysnap Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:53 am

Tbf it could be like the Ashtongate and turn out to be nothing, if not though then he'll not be in an England shirt again.

by Gooseberry Thu 16 Aug 2018, 7:44 am

Im so disappointed with Cipriani, there certainly is no way back for him now surely.
After having managed to redeem himself and seemingly having learnt all his lessons this happens the same day an England cricket player was awaiting the verdict on his own drunken brawl.

Yes to some extent hes a victim of the culture, (do professional clubs really still have nightclub drinking sessions as part of their preseason tour preparation?), but ultimately the guy has chucked away a golden chance.

Even as an Australian its hard to see Jones being able to select him again, and had already warned him about his conduct. It had taken a lot to convince Jones to give him this chance, including Fords and Englands slump.

Yapp this really doesn't sound like a nothing ...hes facing 5 different charges including assaulting police as it stands. Hes at the magistrates today so no doubt more detail will emerge, but it certainly doesn't appear to be a nothing incident

by **LondonTiger** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:03 am

Charges Manu faced in 2015:

two counts of assaulting a police officer, assault by beating and causing criminal damage

Charges faced by Cipriani:

common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and being disorderly on licensed premises

Looks fairly similar.

by **RDW** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:07 am

Larceny is a strange one - the rest suggest he just had a bit of a drunken fight but what is he alleged to have stolen!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:18 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Larceny is a strange one - the rest suggest he just had a bit of a drunken fight but what is he alleged to have stolen!

The incident arose when he tried to take a drink out of the nightclub I understand. Shades of the issue with Melbourne?

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:32 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Jersey Police: “This morning 30 year old Daniel Cipriani was charged with common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and disorderly on licensed premises. He has been remanded in custody until a court appearance at magistrates court at 10am tmrw.” #cipriani

Womp Womp

by Pete330v2 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:33 am

"These wrists are golden, loosen the cuffs".

I was never a Cippers fan but for that immortal line alone I think I man-love him.

by **RDW** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Larceny is a strange one - the rest suggest he just had a bit of a drunken fight but what is he alleged to have stolen!

The incident arose when he tried to take a drink out of the nightclub I understand. Shades of the issue with Melbourne?

Seems a bit harsh to charge him for larceny for that - unless he stole a bottle from behind the bar and tried to make a break for it...

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:35 am

Pete330v2 wrote:"These wrists are golden, loosen the cuffs".

I was never a Cippers fan but for that immortal line alone I think I man-love him.

Hope you aren't the jealous type, he'll be getting plenty of man love....IN JAIL oh yeah

by Barney McGrew did it Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:38 am

common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and being disorderly on licensed premises

No sympathy with Cips - he's been a kb0b - but way to pad out 'drunk & disorderly'. And isn't larceny stealing your partner's ox on a Sunday.

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:40 am

Ford and every other non English rugby fan are made up about this.

In all seriousness unless he gets a custodial sentence I don't think Eddie will drop him.

by robbo277 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:15 am

LondonTiger wrote:Charges Manu faced in 2015:

two counts of assaulting a police officer, assault by beating and causing criminal damage

Charges faced by Cipriani:

common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and being disorderly on licensed premises

Looks fairly similar.

It should be stressed that these are currently only charges. No smoke without fire and obviously something has gone on, but it should be reiterated that he hasn't been found guilty of anything yet.

Obviously the magistrates will deliver a verdict and the RFU will have their own review of the incident. Without the facts it's hard to pass too much judgement, other than it looks like another top level sportsman in this country getting himself into a situation he didn't need to get himself into and getting into trouble for it.

At the very best, its extremely brainless behaviour.

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:26 am

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Charges Manu faced in 2015:

two counts of assaulting a police officer, assault by beating and causing criminal damage

Charges faced by Cipriani:

common assault, larceny, assault on police, resisting arrest and being disorderly on licensed premises

Looks fairly similar.

It should be stressed that these are currently only charges. No smoke without fire and obviously something has gone on, but it should be reiterated that he hasn't been found guilty of anything yet.

Obviously the magistrates will deliver a verdict and the RFU will have their own review of the incident. Without the facts it's hard to pass too much judgement, other than it looks like another top level sportsman in this country getting himself into a situation he didn't need to get himself into and getting into trouble for it.

At the very best, its extremely brainless behaviour.

We invoke the Stokes defence, m'lord

by Gcass Thu 16 Aug 2018, 10:57 am

Cipriani has pleaded guilty to assaulting a female police officer and resisting arrest.

by Gooseberry Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:10 am

munkian wrote:Ford and every other non English rugby fan are made up about this.

In all seriousness unless he gets a custodial sentence I don't think Eddie will drop him.

They dropped Tuiallgi on less charges and he wasnt on a warning already.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:46 am

Gooseberry wrote:
munkian wrote:Ford and every other non English rugby fan are made up about this.

In all seriousness unless he gets a custodial sentence I don't think Eddie will drop him.

They dropped Tuiallgi on less charges and he wasnt on a warning already.

Different management team and easy to set an example as he was not going to be fit anyway.

Solomona and Manu were sent home from a training squad by Jones, with Solomona featuring in squads since.

Will Cipriani be dropped from the squad by Jones? In my view not because of this, but it could be used as the excuse to re-instate the Ford/Farrell axis.

by TightHEAD Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:01 pm

500k I hope this is a bad joke.

Would have got Edwards for a fraction of that.

by lostinwales Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:17 pm

Gcass wrote:Cipriani has pleaded guilty to assaulting a female police officer and resisting arrest.

Nominal fine and most charges dropped, so things could well revert to normal, so maybe things not as bad as first thought.

You just want players to make headlines for what they do on the pitch not off it though.

by Gcass Thu 16 Aug 2018, 12:27 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Gcass wrote:Cipriani has pleaded guilty to assaulting a female police officer and resisting arrest.

Nominal fine and most charges dropped, so things could well revert to normal, so maybe things not as bad as first thought.

You just want players to make headlines for what they do on the pitch not off it though.

Glaws seem to suggest they'll stick by him too.

5 charges reduced to 2 and as you say, a nominal fine of £1500 plus £500 and £250 to the female police officer.

Such a talented player that has always seemed to be hell bent on self destruction.

by doctor_grey Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:33 pm

Whether we believe the charge are minor or not, or whether he got sucked into a bit of a bar incident, the problem for me is how a coach can rely on him. The disaster scenario going forward is if he becomes a member of the squad, gets into trouble the night before a big match and has to be withdrawn at the last moment. That can disrupt planning and all that goes with it.

It did seem he understood how and why he needed to avoid these types of situations and keep squeaky clean. But, perhaps, some people can't help themselves. Even in a comfortable situation, those types of people can never let their guard down. Shame.

by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:45 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Whether we believe the charge are minor or not, or whether he got sucked into a bit of a bar incident, the problem for me is how a coach can rely on him. The disaster scenario going forward is if he becomes a member of the squad, gets into trouble the night before a big match and has to be withdrawn at the last moment. That can disrupt planning and all that goes with it.

It did seem he understood how and why he needed to avoid these types of situations and keep squeaky clean. But, perhaps, some people can't help themselves. Even in a comfortable situation, those types of people can never let their guard down. Shame.

Agreed, would be very surprised if he is picked for England again. Cant say I feel sorry for him given he has had a few chances at this stage. He just isn't reliable.

by Geordie Thu 16 Aug 2018, 1:55 pm

Genuinely who gives a toss about Cipriani. He should never have gone to SA.

We all know that him / Ford / whoever are just keeping the shirt warm for Marcus Smith.

by Geordie Thu 16 Aug 2018, 2:01 pm

PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

by doctor_grey Thu 16 Aug 2018, 2:21 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

A possible selection as an international v. a bottle of hooch..........

by **BigGee** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:39 pm

DC doing a bit of damage limitation on twitter and showing the required amount of remorse whilst stressing it was a minor incident.

He really is someone who should be looking very seriously at his relationship with alcohol, as this does seem to be the root cause of all his well documented issues. He is a professional athlete at the end of the day and no longer a young one. The fact that he does not seemed to have learned from his previous is what would bother me as a coach!

by robbo277 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Whether we believe the charge are minor or not, or whether he got sucked into a bit of a bar incident, the problem for me is how a coach can rely on him. The disaster scenario going forward is if he becomes a member of the squad, gets into trouble the night before a big match and has to be withdrawn at the last moment. That can disrupt planning and all that goes with it.

It did seem he understood how and why he needed to avoid these types of situations and keep squeaky clean. But, perhaps, some people can't help themselves. Even in a comfortable situation, those types of people can never let their guard down. Shame.

It was on a team night out. It's not like he snuck out to a club a couple of days before a big International. He hasn't done that for about 10 years now... Whistle

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

I heard this - similar to the Melbourne incident. But I don't know if that was just to try to explain the larceny charge - which was dropped. I also heard that he took his drink out the club and the larceny referred to the glass, which would explain why that charge would be dropped. Surely if he was stealing a bottle of vodka then that charge would have stuck?

To clear up: Danny Cipriani pled guilty to common assault and resisting arrest. The charges of larceny, assault on a police officer and disorderly in a licenced premises were dropped.

From Cipriani's apology on Instagram, the common assault was on a bouncer. Cipriani pulled his camera tie - I guess after he told him not to take his glass out the club, if that's what indeed happen. Resisting arrest was based on his initial reaction and trying to hold officers off. According to Cipriani's post, the magistrate confirmed that he didn't strike anyone or initiate aggression and summarised that this was a minor incident and that a fine was more than sufficient.

Given these details to emerge so far, I'm going with brainless. He doesn't deserve to have his England career definitively ended over this. I think Doc's point will be key, can Eddie trust him? And that decision will always have to sit with the head coach.

by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

Didn't he do the exact same thing when he played for the Rebels? Except that time when the waitress tried to take it off him he told her to google him.

by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:07 pm

Given that the world cup is around the corner is it not time to call Sam Burgess up again?

by Barney McGrew did it Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:07 pm

If he's drinking too much vodka he needs a serious word with himself - it's a girl's drink.

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