England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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guildfordbat wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:The toss has proven to be most significant factor in the entire series. Root was fortunate he won the toss in every match - despite he moronic decision to bowl in Nottingham. Had the tosses been the opposite way around we could easily be 0-4 down as Kohli would've batted in Nottingham anyway.

The side is clearly in decline once Anderson and Broad leave the scene we may well struggle to even win at home.

Curran has been a decent find more for his batting, bowling isn't anything to write home about yet.

Moeen a decent comeback but his issues are he's hopeless away from England.

Cook and Jennings need scores at the Oval or i would hope both are dropped for Sri Lanka.

Root has shown in this series he's not of the class of a Smith, Kohli or Williamson. His stock has fallen big time.

Dropping is easy. Replacing is less so.

Burns and Vince. Need someone to get after the bowling on the Sri Lankan sandpits and Vince is a decent player of spin. Burns the guy the try and hold up an end.

Well England let the game drift badly at times there. Like they just expected the batsmen to get themselves out. Rashid got about 8 overs to many, Root should not be bowling with six other options there. Load of rubbish, but maybe understandable loss of intensity at the end of another gruelling summer

Sky commentators musing about whether or not this pair will just see it off till the new ball...and then Pant plonks a massive six straight down the ground.

Then he nearly chops on next ball!

Shades of 1979 at The Oval when India almost chased down 400-plus to win after Gavaskar's 221.
Still think this is a tall order for India. If things get tight Root can just put all his guys on the boundary and the bowlers can bowl wide of the stumps. It's not like a white-ball match.
But full marks to India and whatever happens this has been a magnificent, hard-fought, gripping, memorable series.

If Rashid keeps bowling to Pant he either gets him out or the run target will come down pretty quickly !
Better to bowl him now I guess - they won't dare later on.

Whatever happens this has been a terrific fight back by India - who were , lest we forget , 2/3 at one point !

If India were to get there, not only would it be one of the finest comebacks in cricketing history, it would also be the world record fourth innings chase to win a test match, eclipsing the Windies' 418/7 in 2003.

Rashid has just bowled, surely, one of the worst overs in test history.

For some reason Anderson hasn't done much today. Considering he's on straight after tea and the new ball is only a few overs away, he could be on for a long spell while Root tries things at the other end. Hopefully no more Rashid or Root himself though.

The new ball should either slow the scoring rate or take wickets, depending on how India decide to play it. If India can keep going around 4 an over without losing a wicket for 10 overs, then they can start to really press for the target.

Longer term, is that it for Rashid in red ball? I know Moeen hasn't exactly spun them out and Jadeja took some punishment yesterday, but his control hasn't been great. Before this test, people were talking of Ali, Leach and Rashid for Sri Lanka. The next two options: Bess and Crane aren't really playing at the moment. Is there anyone else?

Finally, Rashid gets it right. That should be the match, right there.

Rashid reproduces Warne's "Gatting Ball" to remove Rahul after a wonderful innings !

Out of the rough , true... But will take that gladly !

That 149 was a heck of an effort

Ball suddenly spitting like a cobra...

Pant is fantastic fun ain't he

...and might just have saved Rashid's Test career ?

I'm nowhere near convinced by him. But if he can clean up here it will probably get him on the plane.

If he is still in the team next summer Australia will be licking their lips...

Chasing down the total was never realistic but theres still a fair chance india can see this out.

The fatigue of the bowlers is likely to count against them though. Hard to see them havung yhe mental physical capacity to se out the new ball

Pant holes out ...two for Rashid : odd. Root hasn't trusted him all summer ; now he has kept him on despite heavy punishment and it has paid off...

End of a fine knock...and presumably India's hopes ? Be hard to last from here.

Funny old game.

Ok Pant out thats surely game.

Hes batted well but he stil cant keep very well.

I suspect Root was happy to see the indians play reckless shots. Its how Moeens got so many wickets against them in the past too.
The total was never under serious threat, getting wickets has always been the key.

Same reason he often bowls himself as a partnership breaker...batsmen cant help having a go at him.

Keeping to the old ball has worked for England.  Curious use of Anderson ; but I guess he is the only bowler who could be relied upon to hold things tight ...while Rashid was paying in advance for his wickets  (in true leggie style!)

Rashid big chance now against the rabbits... New ball still up their sleeve.  Would like to see Jimmy get his McGrath target wicket ...so nearly then ! Bairstow dives but can only get a finger to it...

Tough chance . Feel for Jimmy ...he's bowled with heart and spirit as ever ...and no luck.

Well, you have to say it's finally been good captaincy by Root.

Rather than the new ball, he brought on Anderson to dry up the runs at one end and left Rashid on. Rashid was taking some tap, but with Anderson on the Indian batsman had to really get at Rashid to have a chance of victory and that resulted in the downfall of the two set batsmen.

India now looking to take it down a level and play for the draw, which is marginally more likely than a win now, but both are pretty remote. Root continuing with Rashid against the tail, but still has the new ball up his sleeve.

Mr Bairstow hasn’t had the best day behind the stumps

Still not convinced by Rashid. Yes it was a "Warne-like" delivery, but most of the dross before it was "Schofield-like". Pretty sure Pant would have holed out way before he got to his hundred if he'd had to face Broad and Anderson at any point

Sam Curran does the trick...

Two to go...and Jimmy really wants one of them. Doesn't want to come off - what I this , ten , eleven over spell ? Guess he can rest once this is done...

Nearly gets Jadeja with an inside edge...not his day.

Yes, long spell for Anderson, but did have the tea interval in there. Can't see him coming off just yet

Curran could end up with the best bowling figures here for England. Has he been under bowled by Root?

Well done Jimmy and well done England.

Hell of a fightback by India though, cracking series.

All over and what a fantastic series. A number of people got very excited by the tea score, but India still had a long way to go and still needed a good run rate.
Root kept Rashid on and it paid off. India certainly did not deserve to lose 4-1 and England are flattered by the scoreline. England's tail-end batting effectively won the series. Top-order batting on both sides was fragile. India were hampered by Ashwin's injury but can be pleased with their fast bowling and with the way Kohli played.

A superb series really for tension and closely contested sessions throughout the majority of the series.

This test has been remarkable for record setting. Cook's last test, Anderson becoming highest seamer wicket taker in test cricket, Pant's century (the first by a 20-year-old wicket-keeper) and Broad moving up in the highest wicket-takers order.

Well, finally the long cricketing season is over. India lost yet another overseas test series, the scoreline changed but not in favour of India. England has been phenomenal in clicking at the key moments. A big big congratulation for England. And Cook, you will be missed. The career that started with over 200 runs against India ended with yet another 200+ runs against the same opponent. No doubt you be remembered as one of greatest test batsman, and as one of the greatest entertainer in the longer format when the shorter formats are taking the lead.

It's a emotional moment for every cricket fans, though reasons could be different. For me who was on TV for almost 100+ hours following each and every ball bowled and almost 90% of the runs scored, it was yet another disappointment. No doubt Kohli played brilliantly. The team looks like that of 90's where the team was over dependent on Sachin. One positives that came from this series is that Indian pacers were never better before.

Now to all the mates here, this has been a great series and a great discussion here on different facets of the game. A big big congratulation to all the English friends here, for the series brought a cheering moment for them after three series. The retirement of cook was bit of a heartbreak. Anderson was really good here. The fight between Anderson and Kohli was really beautiful, though Kohli won the battle.

Thanks Mates, Next series in India will be interesting.

Kohli is a top bloke ain’t he - speaks a heck of a lot of sense about the game

A proper leader Olly. He really is a credit to Indian crick and the Indian people in general.

Duty281 wrote:Nice (worrying?) stat from Cricwiz:

The average for openers in the County Championship this summer has been 28.95, the lowest since 2000.

One opener who hasn’t struggled this summer, Rory Burns, has just gone to his 4th Championship hundred of the year. Almost a certainty to make the Sri Lanka tour now

Yes full credit to Kohli. Dignified in defeat and very gracious to Cook and Anderson on their big day. Surely, the best test batsman in the world at the moment but captaincy he seems to struggle with though he does lead well just his decision making seems off.

alfie wrote:

Rashid reproduces Warne's "Gatting Ball" to remove Rahul after a wonderful innings !

Out of the rough , true...  But will take that gladly !

That 149 was a heck of an effort

Ball suddenly spitting like a cobra...

It was an excellent engineered delivery - but in my view nowhere near the Warne's Gatting Ball.   The Gatting Ball was extreme spin, while Rashid's ball was more falling into a moon sized crater and being deflected off its rim.

Credit to Root for not taking the new ball and sticking with Rashid.  Well done to Rashid for making use of the bowlers footmarks and for use of variety and sticking with it despite looking like the batsmen were going to continue to get the better of him.  He ended up getting both centurions (Rahul & Pant) and hence played a critical role in winning the match for England, which looked very much like being drawn at that stage.

I have to say todays cricket followed by the end of series ceremony must have turned out as a £20 very well spent to adults attending.

ps: The new ball seemed to be moving in the air quite a bit.   Good bowling from Curran and Anderson with the second new ball.

The Rashid ball I thought Warne like as in the Strauss one as it was round the wicket into the wide rough. The Gatting ball was over the wicket, ridiculous drift and ridiculous spin. Not sure Rashid could emulate that one

No name Bertie wrote:


I have to say todays cricket followed by the end of series ceremony must have turned out as a £20 very well spent to adults attending.

Touche, Bertie. Although a lower price may have got a higher crowd.

Meanwhile, Rory Burns notched up another Championship century today at Worcs - an undefeated 103. Alec Stewart's going to be throwing things out of the pram if his skipper isn't on that plane!

Thought that maybe Broad and Anderson may have joined Cookie monster into retirement tbh. We beat the number 1 side(as according to the rankings) in one of the besr series in recent times. Going out at the top would be well meritted

another test and the same story
we fell just a bit short of crossing the draw line

we competed hard
had we won tosses, we could have won the series..... is all OK

Fact>> we lost
Under the given conditions & situations

--We are competitive and Lost both because of Kohli

It's his team...and he has made us capable of taking 20 wickets overseas whihc sets us up for wins.....with 4 stroke bowlers and about another 4 sitting in reserves

---His weaknesses i wrote about yesterday, doesn't cover the worst case, all or nothing gamble....hoping ODI players would turn into good test batters..

We lost today because he asked Pant and Rahul to go for a win...not considering we will come down like a house of cards once they go...given the frailty of lower order.....and knowing new ball is coming

He's gotta come over this "all or nothing" approach

--He's still the best we have .....one who knows how to take 20 wickets....hope they get rid of Shastri and bring another coach who can complement Kohli's weakness.....Dravid would be my pick.

--Relatively flat pitch and you suddenly see how strong the Indian batsmen can look.....Jadeja, Rahul and Pant not only got runs but smacked bowling around...

( as did Cook and Root)

--Rahul's class was not in dispute...Pant we have to reserve judgment...in more live situations...and when the oppositions has figured his hit or miss approach

Kohli would be 33 when India tours Eng next......would get one more shot at redemption

4-1 England. My goodness, what a travesty of a scoreline.

I've known England teams to play far better, and not even get a series win, let alone a thumping 4-1.

India threw away the first test, were massively unlucky with conditions/toss in the second, pulverised England in the third, were unfortunate with a number of umpiring decisions in the fourth, and were justly outplayed in the fifth.

This isn't a good result for England in the long-term, either, as this victory (and particularly the margin) will wall over the cracks for a short period.

So what do we know? Alastair Cook is the finest English batsman of this century, and bows out in superb style. Anderson is the finest seam bowler bar none since McGrath retired in 2007, but surely the Lancastrian  (and Broad) will soon be leaving. Curran and Buttler have announced themselves, while Ali and Woakes have reasserted themselves. Rashid and Jennings and Malan should all disappear. Root, Stokes and Bairstow are assured for now, though the third of those is on a dip.

And what's ahead? England desperately need to find themselves a frontline spinner, two openers, a genuine number three, a good fielding coach and some decent leadership.

The Sri Lanka tour won't be pretty, but the Ashes probably will be.

And the World Cup will be the sweetest of them all, as cricket finally comes home...

No name Bertie wrote:

alfie wrote:

Rashid reproduces Warne's "Gatting Ball" to remove Rahul after a wonderful innings !

Out of the rough , true...  But will take that gladly !

That 149 was a heck of an effort

Ball suddenly spitting like a cobra...

It was an excellent engineered delivery - but in my view nowhere near the Warne's Gatting Ball.   The Gatting Ball was extreme spin, while Rashid's ball was more falling into a moon sized crater and being deflected off its rim.

Credit to Root for not taking the new ball and sticking with Rashid.  Well done to Rashid for making use of the bowlers footmarks and for use of variety and sticking with it despite looking like the batsmen were going to continue to get the better of him.  He ended up getting both centurions (Rahul & Pant) and hence played a critical role in winning the match for England, which looked very much like being drawn at that stage.

Well that is why I pointed out it was "out of the rough" . Obviously I'm not suggesting Rashid is a new Warne : this one was basically a fluke - but the result was the same.
I still don't really rate Rashid , to be honest. A pitch with that much assistance for the spinner - think he should have been more dangerous , earlier. But he did what wrist spinners are paid for , eventually. Whether England can afford to carry him around or whether he is an expensive luxury remains to be settled , I think.

eirebilly wrote:Curran could end up with the best bowling figures here for England. Has he been under bowled by Root?

I thought he was. Not much in the pitch for him ; but just his left arm variation might have been worth more of a go , earlier. Guess the theory was it was Spinner's Day.

Worked out OK as he was fresh to do the late damage. He is still learning...as is Root.

Hey KP_fan ... I did admire India's spirited fight on this last day , and although they'll be disappointed by the eventual lopsided 4-1 scoreline (which really doesn't reflect the closeness of a couple of the matches) they certainly haven't lost any friends for the series efforts.

Can't agree with you over the tactics being wrong though : I don't think Pant had a hope in hades of blocking out the day - and Rahul could do nothing with the freak ball he got. I think the aggressive approach gave them the best (faint) hope of saving the game : although the win was always a very long shot (one wicket always likely to bring a few) at least the threat produced by the rapid run rate forced Root to use Anderson as a hand brake with the old ball. Had Rashid not produced his "magic" ball , England might have ended up taking the new ball with Jimmy basically burnt out , Broad injured and relying on Curran and Stokes to get the last five...
As I say , odds were the wickets would have fallen eventually. But I think that was so whatever approach they took.
And the one they did was a lot more fun

Agree jury still out on Pant ; spectacular innings ; but how often will that come off ? His keeping could use some work - though some of the byes he conceded were practically unstoppable. He's young and probably worth a bit more of a run...

Dravid might make a great coach - if he wanted it. Not sure how he and Kohli would work together though ; could make for some interesting discussions

And I cannot agree with Duty that this isn't a good result for England.  It is a great result : even if 4-1 flatters them , they won those matches by refusing to fold up in the face of a bad session or two ; and overcame their own weaknesses to achieve the results.  Any victory in a Test series - especially against a worthy opponent like India - is worth celebration , not nit-picking.

It "papers over" nothing : everyone can see the holes that are still there - Even Smith and Bayliss   They will want to fix the gaps as much as we do ... the problem of course being that you can't pick what isn't there...

The Sri Lanka tour presents some problems , as the conditions bear no resemblance to what will be required next year in the Ashes (don't be foolish enough to assume Australia will be rubbish !) but have to be negotiated first ; while rebuilding that top order. But we are where we are and that process will start with the tour selection .  Hoping they get it right - or as right as can be with the resources available.

When you win 4-1 the pluses must outdo the minuses...unless you had money on India ? You didn't , did you , Duty ?  

You probably have to go back to the Ashes series of 1981 to find England winning from seemingly hopeless positions twice in a series as they did here.
Yes, the scoreline flattered England but as Alfie says above they can take great heart from the fightbacks.
But England effectively have to find new numbers one, two and three as I really don't think Moeen is a number three bat.

Further thoughts on the outcome.....

Eng's cracks were papered....because they won every toss and had conditions perfect for their bowling attack.....The positives for Eng that they must remember
1) Keep Moeen in the side...always
2) Mach as Rashid isn't the greatest Leggie around.......keep him in the squad...he's the best that Eng has
3) value and appreciate the middle and lower order batting strengths......makes up for a fragile ( sometimes non existent top-order).....with Stokes, Woakes, Curran, Ali, Rashid and Broad...they could have 6 bowlers all of whom can bat


India's every little chink was caught out....because they were confronted with the worst of conditions every game...and even an inch of soft underbelly that they had was exposed either due to circumstances or conditions
The negatives India must remember

1) You can't go all out attack with no line of defense...Kohli must come out of All or nothing approach
2) You cannot turn limited over good players into test match players...Pandya must become front-line bowler at Ranji level....if he wants an allrounder's role
3) You cannot carry Ishant, Shami and Bumrah who don't guarantee even 10 runs....in the playing 11...and esp without a 6th batsman and a WK who is a solid batsman

Ishant should make way for Bhuvi and Shami asked to practise and improve his batting

I still can't understand the logic of questioning Pant's future. According to the sky stats man, Pant is the fifth young man(boy) to score a first class triple hundred and after yesterday's dazzling century the second youngest test wicket keeper to score a hundred. Also might be worth factoring in India's demi god Dhoni never scored an international century outside of Asia, yet Pant achieved this at the first attempt.

As I said previously Pant was probably a project player on his tour, his glove work was ungainly but some of the byes he conceded not even Joel Garner would stopped!

There's talk that Saha wouldn't be back for another 3-4 months so essentially the Australian tour, Pant deserves to playing the home series against Windies to further development but should remain second choice behind Saha. For me Pant should've closed the door on proven flops Karthik and Patel.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I still can't understand the logic of questioning Pant's future. According to the sky stats man, Pant is the fifth young man(boy) to score a first class triple hundred and after yesterday's dazzling century the second youngest test wicket keeper to score a hundred. Also might be worth factoring in India's demi god Dhoni never scored an international century outside of Asia, yet Pant achieved this at the first attempt.

As I said previously Pant was probably a project player on his tour, his glove work was ungainly but some of the byes he conceded not even Joel Garner would stopped!

There's talk that Saha wouldn't be back for another 3-4 months so essentially the Australian tour, Pant deserves to playing the home series against Windies to further development but should remain second choice behind Saha. For me Pant should've closed the door on proven flops Karthik and Patel.

The issue with Pant as keeper is less his glovework and more his footwork. He was often moving late and rarely took a step before diving, being on his heels and leaping from an off balance position.

Watch the better keepers (and after his work with Bruce French I am including Bairstow in this rank now) and they are light on their feet, move early and always step then dive. Some of the balls Pant was diving for other keepers would take still vertical, while some of the even wider ones many keepers would have taken.

Of course Pant can improve - Bairstow shows that a static stone-gloves can become a decent keeper.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I still can't understand the logic of questioning Pant's future. According to the sky stats man, Pant is the fifth young man(boy) to score a first class triple hundred and after yesterday's dazzling century the second youngest test wicket keeper to score a hundred. Also might be worth factoring in India's demi god Dhoni never scored an international century outside of Asia, yet Pant achieved this at the first attempt.

As I said previously Pant was probably a project player on his tour, his glove work was ungainly but some of the byes he conceded not even Joel Garner would stopped!

There's talk that Saha wouldn't be back for another 3-4 months so essentially the Australian tour, Pant deserves to playing the home series against Windies to further development but should remain second choice behind Saha. For me Pant should've closed the door on proven flops Karthik and Patel.

Had he not played this inning...he would have been dumped
Now he will get to play more tests....in India and will b the first choice keeper in Aus....especially given that Saha is indisposed
The jury is out on him on:
1) How will he keep wickets on raging turners in India...this is where Parthiv, Karthik were dropping too many & hence Dhoni got his breakthrough
2) How will he bat overseas.......his hit & miss style worked....once in 6 innings he played and international community have watched him closely......can he score runs more regularly overseas

I note Burns scored yet another century yesterday, this time with two veteran test openers recording ducks at 2 and 3. Still feel England missed an opportunity by not using him in this series, but his selection for Sri Lanka seems impossible to avoid now...concerns aside theres no opener even come vaguely close to his performances in the CC this season.
Pope made 48 too...batting at 4 for once ( and effectively coming in as an opener). Still very much one for the future but its good to see the test experience hasnt robbed him of all confidence as it has some others.

Gooseberry wrote:I note Burns scored yet another century yesterday, this time with two veteran test openers recording ducks at 2 and 3.  Still feel England missed an opportunity by not using him in this series, but his selection for Sri Lanka seems impossible to avoid now...concerns aside theres no opener even come vaguely close to his performances in the CC this season.
Pope made 48 too...batting at 4 for once ( and effectively coming in as an opener). Still very much one for the future but its good to see the test experience hasnt robbed him of all confidence as it has some others.

Yes you'd think they have to pick Burns now ... Even if they really don't think he is the answer : just to give him a chance to fail and prove them right

With Jennings apparently unavoidable at the other end there is still room for a third potential opener ; preferably a right hander who is used to fielding in the slips... Names on the back of an envelope , please...

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I note Burns scored yet another century yesterday, this time with two veteran test openers recording ducks at 2 and 3.  Still feel England missed an opportunity by not using him in this series, but his selection for Sri Lanka seems impossible to avoid now...concerns aside theres no opener even come vaguely close to his performances in the CC this season.
Pope made 48 too...batting at 4 for once ( and effectively coming in as an opener). Still very much one for the future but its good to see the test experience hasnt robbed him of all confidence as it has some others.

Yes you'd think they have to pick Burns now ... Even if they really don't think he is the answer : just to give him a chance to fail and prove them right

With Jennings apparently unavoidable at the other end there is still room for a third potential opener ; preferably a right hander who is used to fielding in the slips...  Names on the back of an envelope , please...

Daryl Mitchell fits your criteria there Alfie...should be noted Burns can also field in the slips (usually 3rd or 2nd slip for Surrey - with Sir Rikki of Clarke snaffling everything at 1st )

As for England's summer - I think they can call it a successful one. Yes they have holes they are well aware of, but what current test team doesn't? They've taken on an Indian team many fancied to defeat them, and managed to beat them in the biggest moments and unusually for England they've actually won some tight games - and games in which they've been behind. They do deserve credit for that - and on top of the unbelievable success of the One Day side this summer, I think they should rightly be happy with what they've done.

The winter looks intriguing - Sri Lanka and West Indies are two sides who are good at home, but on paper not unbeatable (like touring India would be). I think England have a good shot at turning around their recent winter tour form...whether that'll come to fruition is another question.

Might be time to get a "winter tour" selection discussion thread going I reckon...today I see George Dobell reporting England are considering taking Jamie Overton or Olly Stone as "pace" men for Sri Lanka (providing both stay fit - which is a 50/50 considering their past injury histories). I'd like to see that, probably Overton more than Stone (despite Stone hailing from my area of the woods), and hopefully they'll be no Mark Wood...

Olly I agree Winter Tour squad(s) Discussion needs setting up...

Leaving it to you as I'm about to catch up more sleep from several 2-3 am nights...