England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

I know this will amuse 7.5 but dear god please do not pick Rhodes!!! Especially when we have Mercer coming through who can play there at 6....Underhill who is made for 6, already have Kiwi Shields at 6. I would rather give Mark Wilson the spot...

Wilkinson -
I think your back 3 selections are probably what we will end up with.

Its still our options at 12/13 that bothers me.
I would hope that Tuilagi isn't involved! While he looks to be fit, I am still not convinced that he is ready yet - there were a number of times I thought he was out of position and defensively a bit lazy - that will likely improve with more games.
Twelvetrees - you are right, is combining well with Cips. But if Cips doesn't start then I cant see Billy getting involved. Also I think Farrell is nailed on for 12. Teo will probably be in the squad to get assessed if he is just back from injury.

Half backs I agree with.

Back row - not sure about Rhodes, but that's the only ? for me.

I do think there will be more 2nd rows selected - Slater deserves a recall. Kruis hasn't done much of late (is he injured?) and EJ likes Isekwe quite a lot as utility cover.

Front row - Sinks hasn't played this season (not sure what the injury is). Agree with the rest and as you say - Dunn would come in for LCD if he is injured. Although Eddie did talk about Jack Singleton as a possibility (think he was involved in some of the earlier squads).

I am sure EJ will also add in a few 'development' players -
Marcus Smith, Gabriel Ibitoye, Joel Kpoku (the Sarries u20's lock), Joe Simmonds, Olowofella etc.

My effort
Front Row
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Marler, Vunipola, (A.N.Other)
Hartley, George, (Cowan-Dickie / Taylor / Dunn)

Second Row
Lawes, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis

Back Row
B. Vunipola, S.Simmonds, T. Curry, Underhill, B.Curry, Shields, Mercer

Half backs
SH- Youngs, Care
FH - Ford, Cipriani, J.Simmonds

Centres
Tuilagi, Slade, Farrell. (Daly can cover)

Back 3
Brown, Daly, Nowell, May, Cokanasiga, (Lewington / Radwan - Either are a wildcard)

Nathan Hughes Dropped as hes woeful, Robshaw dropped..need more explosiveness.
Where oh where are our inside centers!!!??

GF - Thought Hughes was quite impressive for the 1st time in a while for Wasps on the w/e. He seemed a bit more energised. I fully expect him to still be involved.

Ah the squad I listed is not the one I expect Jones to pick.

I just think Hughes has been underwhelming at internatonal level ...even before all his injury issues....and has been mentioned on other threads..he lacks rugby brains like a certain Mr Haskell.

Id rather focus on Billy and Mercer at 8 and have Simmonds in as back up who can also cover the whole back row. Simmonds has that x-factor that is useful...though id still rather he was a 12!

Ha gf. I'd rather not see Rhodes but more due to him but an ok flanker rather than his qualification route.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha gf. I'd rather not see Rhodes but more due to him but an ok flanker rather than his qualification route.

Wilkinson sword wrote:It gets picked tomorrow.

...
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
...

There are things you can pick on with Robshaw, and solid reasons why you might prefer the alternatives. But not work rate. I would seriously doubt either of those names have a comparable work rate

Flankers are always going to be the most controversial and confused area for England. Whichever way you cut it and fall on the side of certain players theres not really anyone who would be everyones first name on the team sheet in available.

Most of the rest pretty much picks itself.., although Id expect 4 locks rather than 3 and theres a couple of questions around the centers, largely the lack of an out and out 13 with some pace (although Daly is a utility option for in game changes)

Its amazing that for all the time much of the inetrnet had it in for Brown of the past few years hes now firmly back as a no brainer in the side with pretty much everyone.

Not me. I'd very much like to see cokanasiga may and Daly at full back for the first game of the AIs. That may well change by the time that comes around like.

Gooseberry wrote:Flankers are always going to be the most controversial and confused area for England. Whichever way you cut it and fall on the side of certain players theres not really anyone who would be everyones first name on the team sheet in available.  

Most of the rest pretty much picks itself.., although Id expect 4 locks rather than 3 and theres a couple of questions around the centers, largely the lack of an out and out 13 with some pace (although Daly is a utility option for in game changes)  

Its amazing that for all the time much of the inetrnet had it in for Brown of the past few years hes now firmly back as a no brainer in the side with pretty much everyone.

The non English crowd have been after Brown for years, but for us he's been such a reliable player. It is good to have an alternative.

As for the centers what about Joe Marchant?

I cannot see Sam Simmons being in the squad, he already has Farrell and Slade who are more than competent fly halves in the centres slot, So I would expect another centre. Maybe it is time for the rebirth of 36, he is playing well.

It's Tuilagi. Stop pretending it won't be.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I cannot see Sam Joe Simmons being in the squad, he already has Farrell and Slade who are more than competent fly halves in the centres slot, So I would expect another centre. Maybe it is time for the rebirth of 36, he is playing well.

Fixed that for you

You see its not the 13 spot that concerns me...its the 12 spot.

At 13 we have (in no particular order)
Manu back playing
Marchant
Slade playing some excellent stuff for Exeter
Daly
Sam James is a player I rate highly.


At 12 though....
Farrell (a fly half covering 12)
T'eo..


Johnny Williams is back playing for us now though and has looked VERY impressive so far. Strong defender, makes fantastic breaks. And has a Head coach who will manage him very well...

GeordieFalcon wrote:At 12 though....
Farrell (a fly half covering 12)
T'eo..
.

A former player on one of the regular podcasts was talking up Devoto for 12.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I cannot see Sam Simmons being in the squad, he already has Farrell and Slade who are more than competent fly halves in the centres slot, So I would expect another centre. Maybe it is time for the rebirth of 36, he is playing well.

Sam Simmonds - back rower ( that GF wishes was a flanker) probably in squad.

Joe Simmonds - FH and younger brother of Sam. Unlikely to be in squad.

I have no doubts had Manu been fit and available all through Jones tenure he would have been moved to 12 in an attempt to make him a Non style player.

LondonTiger wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I cannot see Sam Simmons being in the squad, he already has Farrell and Slade who are more than competent fly halves in the centres slot, So I would expect another centre. Maybe it is time for the rebirth of 36, he is playing well.

Sam Simmonds - back rower ( that GF wishes was a flanker centre) probably in squad.

Joe Simmonds - FH and younger brother of Sam. Unlikely to be in squad.

Fixed that for you aswell

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:At 12 though....
Farrell (a fly half covering 12)
T'eo..
.

A former player on one of the regular podcasts was talking up Devoto for 12.

Ill be honest I havent seen much of him recently...has he pushed on from the player with potential?

Gooseberry wrote:

Its amazing that for all the time much of the inetrnet had it in for Brown of the past few years hes now firmly back as a no brainer in the side with pretty much everyone.

Mostly because Watson had his chances and didn't take them. Also Daly looked to be more potent in attack from the wing than when he was at 15.

Its not until Joseph isn't available that you miss him. He offers pace and a decent defensive game.
Hopefully its not much longer till he comes back into contention - but must have gametime before England selection.
However he is also a 13!

12's -
Faz - known quantity (still likely to start)
Teo - Injured, just about to make a comeback
Tuilagi - Looks fit and healthy/lacking game head IMO
Lozowski was an option that EJ seemed to like (another of the converted 10s).
As mentioned above 'Devoto' Interview from Rob Baxter said he was pulling up trees - been in some of EJs squads

Wild cards -
Twelvetrees - International experience - good current form
Burrell - HaHa, don't believe it myself
Cipriani might offer an option at 12 (but would only ever want to see him at 10)
Nowell has flirted in the centres - cant remember if it was 12 or 13

propdavid_london wrote:Its not until Joseph isn't available that you miss him.  He offers pace and a decent defensive game.  
Hopefully its not much longer till he comes back into contention - but must have gametime before England selection.  
However he is also a 13!

12's -
Faz - known quantity (still likely to start)
Teo - Injured, just about to make a comeback
Tuilagi - Looks fit and healthy/lacking game head IMO
Lozowski was an option that EJ seemed to like (another of the converted 10s).
As mentioned above 'Devoto' Interview from Rob Baxter said he was pulling up trees - been in some of EJs squads

Wild cards -
Twelvetrees - International experience - good current form
Burrell - HaHa, don't believe it myself
Cipriani might offer an option at 12 (but would only ever want to see him at 10)
Nowell has flirted in the centres - cant remember if it was 12 or 13

Nowell has played at 13 (So has May I think). For all his skills Cipriani at 12 would be a speedbump (or even a speedybump) I appreciate his defense should be better than it used to be but he started from such a poor level that anything would be an improvement.

Not taking the question that seriously but Piers Francis was not awful at 12 when he got a cap there.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill be honest I havent seen much of him recently...has he pushed on from the player with potential?

I haven't seen him either.

His name cropping up illustrates how wide a pool of players of similar standard and potential we've got.

Just looking at lock, everyone has Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje carved in stone but Kruis might return to form in the same way George Ford seems to have come alive for Leicester in the last two games. Meanwhile, Attwood has his fans, especially among those who think out pack lacks brute strength and mauling nous. And, just the other day, Jim Hamilton suggested Ed Slater should be considered, which is not such a daft idea because he has leadership skills, and was on the verge of making Lancaster's World Cup squad before injury laid him low. Do we just stop considering the form of any other English lock this season, on the grounds it's just to hard to work out how to give them playing time alongside your main choices?

Elsewhere, I keep hearing the back three picks itself but does it really, if May, Nowell, Watson, Daly, Brown and Ashton are all fit and on form? That's already too many names and doesn't leave any room for Cokanasiga, Lewington, Solomona, Yarde, Woodward, Earle or Rokoduguni to be considered. It can't be out of the realm of possibilities that one of them goes on a hot streak this season. (I'm assuming Wade and Alex Goode are regarded as surplus to requirements).

You can do this kind of exercise with out midfield and back row too. In the end, you just have to trust that Jones has his eye on the right players, because there's no way every half decent prospect can get an opportunity. You'd imagine incumbents would be favoured but that would all go out the window if results go against us.

propdavid_london wrote:Its not until Joseph isn't available that you miss him.  He offers pace and a decent defensive game.  
Hopefully its not much longer till he comes back into contention - but must have gametime before England selection.  
However he is also a 13!

12's -
Faz - known quantity (still likely to start)
Teo - Injured, just about to make a comeback
Tuilagi - Looks fit and healthy/lacking game head IMO
Lozowski was an option that EJ seemed to like (another of the converted 10s).
As mentioned above 'Devoto' Interview from Rob Baxter said he was pulling up trees - been in some of EJs squads

Wild cards -
Twelvetrees - International experience - good current form
Burrell - HaHa, don't believe it myself
Cipriani might offer an option at 12 (but would only ever want to see him at 10)
Nowell has flirted in the centres - cant remember if it was 12 or 13

Wild Card...Johnny Williams? Lets see how he goes this season...he's started it very promising.

Yes, I forgot Piers Francis....His showings for saints haven't been particularly impressive! He scored a few tries against the BaaBaas last season - however I thought he was equally responsible for a few of the BaaBaas tries too. He's also been involved in the squads for a couple of seasons so knows the systems - although EJ doesn't seem to have fully trusted him so far.

Johnny Williams looks to have made a good start as you say.

Sam James was involved with a few of the tours - not sure if he was ever capped though!

Kruis is just starting his comeback post an ankle op. He came on as a sub against Northampton. He obviously needs time.

Nathan Hughes I think can be top drawer, but has been used whilst not fully fit over the past season. He is another one who requires game time.

All our players on the injury comeback just need club games to return to fitness and proper form. The old rule was 8 club matches, but obviously it varies from individual to individual. The key error is rushing them back to soon and risking another injury.

But the problems in the England team does put pressure to bring some of these guys in sooner than we would like.

The 12 debate I don't think is one as clearly Farrell will play there for the RWC and this is down to a lack of alternatives. If Farrell is unavailable then Eddie has a tough decision to make. T'eo is not fit yet. Manu is not a 12 as his distribution and kicking are poor. He normally plays 13 for Leicester. Slade has the skill set, but again he prefers 13, but maybe he and Manu can make a decent pairing and swap being inside and outside centre depending on the situation?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I cannot see Sam Simmons being in the squad, he already has Farrell and Slade who are more than competent fly halves in the centres slot, So I would expect another centre. Maybe it is time for the rebirth of 36, he is playing well.

Sam Simmonds - back rower ( that GF wishes was a flanker centre) probably in squad.

Joe Simmonds - FH and younger brother of Sam. Unlikely to be in squad.

Fixed that for you aswell

Oops. Karma for trying to be "smart"

I'm loving the premiership for now.....and I'm happy to keep the autumn internationals just over the horizon....thing is squad selection is all well and dandy, but as we all know the awful reality is it will come down to which bodies are still functioning come the week of the games.
Keeping all fingers crossed that our relative good fortune continues.

Ed.....didn't you write 7/8's of a squad on another thread just a while back.......

Some good names and squads named. Hughes is limited even when fit and that's from a wasps fan. I would love to see Mercer picked above him as he has more strings to his bow. The biggest thing ironically is who goes six as I think Underhill and curry will battle it out for seven. Do we stick or twist from Robshaw? Other positions we have depth just need to work on breakdown and speed of thought and action in the forwards. I've never seen so many talented backs in contention for England so provided we get the platform we will score plenty of tries. Personally lozowski, Slade and Daly are my favourite players to watch but do not necessarily give you the balance needed in the same team. If tuilagi stays fit (big of) then the options just multiply and before we know it a pretty handy squad emerges.

The old adage rings true: 'forwards determine who wins, the backs determine by how much.'

There's a few "fringe" players making a name for themselves in the Prem at the moment. Slater is on form, Zach Mercer is looking fantastic, Lewington is scoring for fun and Cokanasiga is looking great for development - his touchdown in the corner was fabulous.

I would love to see some of the more unfavoured but in form players at least given a bench slot. And can we pick a scrum half that isn't Youngs or Care???

Is it going to be spencer or do you think jones will throw the ball to Robson finally? Personally as a bit of a critic of Youngs we really missed his organisation in the 6ns.

Squad is being named today?

England training squad

Forwards: (20) Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).  

Backs: (16) Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

No - Cips, Simmonds, Armand, Cowan Dickie, Roko?

If I was a Chiefs fan I'd be really pissed off, the reason Chiefs are at the top of the prem is because their forwards are immense.

Englands main problem of late is that our forwards look clueless, tired and unable to dominate the breakdown. Don't see that changing to be honest.

I'm not a fan of Cips to be honest but he is the form 10 in the Prem by a Country mile. Not to be in the squad is mind boggling.

TightHEAD wrote:If I was a Chiefs fan I'd be really pissed off, the reason Chiefs are at the top of the prem is because their forwards are immense.

Englands main problem of late is that our forwards look clueless, tired and unable to dominate the breakdown. Don't see that changing to be honest.

I'm not a fan of Cips to be honest but he is the form 10 in the Prem by a Country mile. Not to be in the squad is mind boggling.

Dunno about country mile Ford got man of the match in week 2 and would have got it in week 3 if Tigers had managed to scrape a win. Finally off the leash he's got the Tigers attacking purring.

Still surprised Cips isn't in.

Cips missing will get the headline. Is this the first Eng squad to include Rhodes?

Good to see Robson still involved, despite the lack of game time in SA.

No Underhill either, so Curry has got the 7 shirt wrapped up unless he goes with the 6.5 strategy

BamBam wrote:No Underhill either, so Curry has got the 7 shirt wrapped up unless he goes with the 6.5 strategy

or he'll play a 2nd row there again. That works well!

Eddie 's selection is beginning to look clueless with one year to WC no consistency , choosing wildcards such as Mercer, Rhodes and Shields and ejecting Simmonds and Underhill who looked OK at that level. Tuilagi and Ashton who both showed form 4yrs ago and a rookie on the wing. Tuilagi looked very much off the pace and out of position defensively in the Chiefs match. I fear it will not go well in Japan Eddie has shown he is only a short term success manager but no long term strategy.

This is only a training squad. There could still be changes before the AIs. I'd expect Cips, Simmons and Cole to return for the actual games.

And arguing for form. Ie cokanasiga and also lamenting rookies ie cokanasiga. It's a nice enufh training squad. As above it doesn't mean cole et al have fallen out of favour just means he can have a closer look at a few more.

Robson we're all looking at you to have a good couple of days. Rhodes, gf wishes you the very best....in your future endeavour s.

The squad seems a little strange.  We got pummeled at the breakdown during the 6N and I will go out on a limb and say the inclusion of Mike Rhodes is not going to improve that.

Not sure why Schonert is in there, we already have Kyle Sinkler and Harry Williams. Why do we need a South African journeyman who is just going to be used as a stick to beat us with?

I am pleased that Mercer is in there, but it seems a little too early.  He won't get the space that he gets in the Premiership and he isn't big enough to win the tight exchanges at international level yet.  

I hope Robson can break the Youngs/ Care monopoly on the number 9 position.  They have been too comfortable for too long, they need credible competition.

There still doesn't seem any proper backup at fullback, I just don't believe it is the right position for Daly.

I thought it was the right time to cut the cord with Hartley, he doesn't dominate contact, his throw has become less reliable and he now seems prone to concussion.

Brown seems likely to play 11 as long as his wrist is healed; Watson and Daly can both play fullback and May I would have thought is an automatic pick on the other wing. That said, Nowell could substitute for Brown. Earle and Cokanasiga are there fore the future.

Flanker is the place where there's the most competition, with 5 going for 3 slots. Oddly, Curry looks the most secure.

Michael Rhodes!!!!!!!

Schonert!!!!!!

No Underhill???

Great to see Mark Wilson in there though....

Is this just a couple of days training squad...or a very real squad for the AI's??

Its a training squad - I would assume that most of these guys are there because the coaches want to give some feedback or check their medical progress etc.

I guess the only issue for those not being included in the squad is the new defensive coach! If he wants to implement new systems or tactics then it would be a disadvantage for anyone not invited to these camps.

Well the new defence coach is in South Africa ....

Defence coaching by webinar........grrreat

7 forwards and 2 backs from Saracens
4 backs from Leicester

Totals (and I could be wrong)
Saracens 9
Harlequins 6
Wasps 5
Leicester 4
Exeter 3
Sale, Saints, Bath, Warriors 2
Falcons 1
(Worth adding)
Gloucester, Bristol 0