England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

As much as we have criticised Ford I have to admit that England looked much better when he came on against Ireland. Maybe the match was already done and the intensity gone, but he definitely makes England a lot more threatening going forward. If only he was better at managing things on the back foot? If he does start on the bench (certainly worth trying something different) then at least this gives us a decent different option if he comes on. Eddie must be brave and if things are not working then be prepared to make an early call.

I would also be interested to see Manu and T'eo given a go, although that would currently be unfair given T'eo has only played a few minutes off the bench. Therefore, select Slade with Manu as Slade has been in good form and offers a left foot option. Brown must be at 15 or on the bench.

2nd rows I am always interested in what England coaches have against Attwood? Surely he is above his Bath colleagues and his toughness is exactly what we might need off the bench. No point risking Lawes so Kruis and Itoje to start in the engine room. I would like to see Rhodes play at 6, but I guess he has been at 7 for Sarries as Lawes has played there all season, but I assume he is also a 6??

Not sure what to expect over the next 2 weekends, but looking forward to it albeit I fear it could end in tears.

I assume that the team will be named Wed/Thurs this week?

I don't get why everyone is picking Brown at 15 - Eddie's plan seems to be to use him at 11 to attack the fringes. It's possible that with Watson out it's better to have him back at fullback, but given he played wing over the summer and it worked fairly well.

Ford, Farrell, Slade & Manu looks like an interesting midfield. Plenty of options.

Does anyone know if Underhill is fit and firing?
Lawes sounds like he is out of contention - So I would presume that we might be looking at a lock partnership of Itoje and Kruis.

I know many of them aren't in the squad - but Eddie needs to be looking closer at the Falcons back row - guys like Graham are properly getting stuck into the opposition at the moment.

At the moment I reckon the team will be something like this -

Hepburn, George, Williams
Itoje, Kruis
Underhill, Curry, Morgan
Youngs
Ford,
May (if fit)
Farrell
Slade
Daly
Brown

Finishers -
Moon, Hartley, Sinks, (Replacement Lock), Shields, Care, Tuilagi, Nowell

No 7&1/2 wrote:England v South Africa: Courtney Lawes doubtful with recurring back injury - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46004082

More detail here. I'd read from borthwick he had come into the england camp today. Presumably ewers comes to the bench if lawes doesn't make it.

I would suggest we are more likely to see something like:

Itoje, Kruis, Shields, Curry and Morgan all start with Wilson/Rhodes and Mercer on the bench. You could potentially shuffle your 6s around. But I would think if Lawes and Launchbury are both out we might see him play no second row on the bench to give an extra back row a spot.

So Courtney strains his back getting himself into some dwarf's bed. Surely we can't blame Eddie for this one. I'm looking forward to seeing in which imaginative way Manu crocks himself this time. Maybe a pillow fight with Cips that goes horribly wrong.

Doh. Meant ewels rather than ewers above.

I don't believe all this weakened sa for the weekend. They will have a strong team available with a massive ball carrying pack. Duan vermulan is available apparently although they miss loew and faf they will have Marx and the big lad back. England better get their shoulders warm it's going to be physical. Sa will be hard to beat all series now they are going back to what they are good at. I am actually glad they are good again as it didn't sit right. Let battle commence and here's hoping the ref doesn't make the headlines.

robbo277 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England v South Africa: Courtney Lawes doubtful with recurring back injury - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46004082

More detail here. I'd read from borthwick he had come into the england camp today. Presumably ewers comes to the bench if lawes doesn't make it.

I would suggest we are more likely to see something like:

Itoje, Kruis, Shields, Curry and Morgan all start with Wilson/Rhodes and Mercer on the bench. You could potentially shuffle your 6s around. But I would think if Lawes and Launchbury are both out we might see him play no second row on the bench to give an extra back row a spot.

Your quite right - we've seen Shields cover in the 2nd row before (on his debut wasn't it).
I hope its not the case but it would allow Shields and Mercer to be on the bench.

Shields could start in the back row and move to lock if necessary.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing in which imaginative way Manu crocks himself this time. Maybe a pillow fight with Cips that goes horribly wrong.

Presumably this is why Jones is so reluctant to have Cips in the training squads

I am almost dreading what we may see when the team is announced. Based purely on previous selections plus general journalistic noise, I expect to see something like:

Hepburn, Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Rhodes, Curry, Morgan, Youngs, Farrell, Brown, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Daly (Reps George, Moon, Williams, Ewels, Shields, Care, Ford, Nowell)

Personally I do not feel that Rhodes should be anywhere near the side and feel Wilson is the best 6 in the squad, and Youngs form is not good enough. Brown is not a winger, but that was where he played in the summer and it largely worked. I would rather see the THs the other way round and am worried that if Manu is selected and wears 12 he will be used as a battering ram rather than running clever lines at the holes. I would also start George, as I view him the better player, and have LCD on the bench - but that option is unavailable.

What really worries me is that we select Rhodes and Shields in the back row (with Lawes injury the chances of him or Itoje being there have reduced) and Wigglesworth at 9. I have even seen a suggestion that Manu and Te'o could both play.

Tiger...I agree with much of what you say, but I don't know enough about Wilson, but if an actual English player is the better option then I would support that. I think your XV is going to be very close to the actual one. I would actually start Hartley and look to bring George and Sinckler on with 25 to go - it really changes the dynamic.

The Daily Mail has about it's 6th major article on Manu, which I think it just way over the top. The poor guy just needs time to work his way back to the top and making him out to be the Mesiah is not helpful.

The breakdown was England's achilles heel last season and I remain very worried about this. Curry is going to need a lot of assistance.

He's not the messiah. He's a very naug.... ah we have done that one before.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doh. Meant ewels rather than ewers above.

I knew who you meant if it's any consolation! I still think if Lawes and Launchbury are both out, Eddie may put an extra backrow on the bench and just use Shields or Wilson as second row cover in case of emergency.

Being a back rower who can cover lock if needed is perhaps the role that most suits Rhodes. Still do not feel he should be there though.

Jim Hamilton claims he has heard it will be :

Moon
Hartley
Sinckler
Kruis
Ewels (supposed to be Lawes before the injury)
Itoje (6)
Morgan
Curry

Youngs
Farrell
Slade [Edit: Tuilagi}
Tuilagi [Edit: Slade]

May
Ashton
Daley (FB)

If we start with the powderpuff Ewels at lock and Itoje at 6 I will be disappointed. Not surprised though.

Not sure where I sit on Ashton playing, having only had the one match in the challenge cup this season. I guess he did get a hat trick against Connacht.

That would be quite a number of changes.

There's a fair few injuries to wingers so jones can use it as an excuse to try ashton quickly. If he brings the same form as he did when left out of the england team jones' can use lack of alternatives as an excuse. If he looks dangerous then he's successfully brought him back ta da! Win win.

I might have switched Slade and Tuilagi around from Hamilton's named XV. Thinking back, it might have been Tuilagi at inside centre, with Slade outside him.

LondonTiger wrote:If we start with the powderpuff Ewels at lock and Itoje at 6 I will be disappointed. Not surprised though.

Not sure where I sit on Ashton playing, having only had the one match in the challenge cup this season. I guess he did get a hat trick against Connacht.

Agree with the top one. That pack? No thanks.

The second one I'm less worried about. Nowell could consider himself unlucky, but it might be worth giving Ashton a go. It's not like he's been injured all this time and is being rushed back.

I don't mind the team overly though personally I can't see him playing itoje at 6. I expect him to go with shields.
Leaking the team used to be common place under johnson and Lancaster. Then ashton was dropped. I wonder.

Ewels V Etzebeth........ Attwood on the other hand....ok don't go there.

Not beyond Eddie to be playing games though is it?

I don't get the live for attwood. Big guy who doesn't use his size well. Ewels is better.

England have retained 25 players for this weekend's test. 23 man squad to be named Thursday.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-south-africa-november-internationals-squad-update/

Forwards
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) co-captain, Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs) , Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens) co-captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

I would guess Stooke and Te'o may miss out on the 23? To give us:

Moon, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Shields, Curry, Mercer
Youngs, Farrell, May, Tuilagi, Slade, Ashton, Daly
George, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Wilson, Care, Ford, Nowell

Can never be too sure with Eddie though.

Surprised Morgan was released - big call for Mercer

I'm hopeful that does mean mercer and not shields at 8.
Looks like cokanasiga s going to have to wait for Japan.
I'd echo I am surprised that morgan has been sent home with brown. Can't say I'm too unhappy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't get the live for attwood. Big guy who doesn't use his size well. Ewels is better.

Not that they feature together very often, but at Bath I find Attwood much better than Ewels. Sure Ewels, like all the other locks who played at 6 - when younger,  runs around a lot but he is poor at scrummaging and far too lightweight in contact. Attwood has never become the player he should have been, but is still imo far superior to his team mate.

If Manu is at 12 and used as a Jamie Roberts style battering ram, he will be broken again very quickly.

How Gary Graham is not an an international squad I have no idea.

As to the squad...it's all just too meh for me. Mercer and Curry could be silver linings in the back row...but will they be given any kind of platform to show what they can do from the rest of the pack against a SA pack that regardless of player availability will be as physical as they come.

Please not Itoje at 6....surely not.

The front row could be a car crash...

Oh and Calum Green is a million miles better than Ewels!!

Why o why o why move Manu to 12? He's a 13. A scary as hell 13. Play him at 12 is a waste

Agreed on Manu, it would be better to keep a playmate at 12 teo will start though and Slade will be on the bench. If it's a lighter pack having two lumps in midfield should shift the point of attack. However if sa starve us of ball we are screwed as their pack will keep smashing.

Having given it some thought if Wilson and curry are working in tandem then it could give sa a bit of headache as those two are imo very good at the breakdown. I have a sneaking suspicion that shields will be eight. Regarding brown it was always going to happen sooner rather than later. He's been brilliant for England but has lacked an attacking edge of late. We have decent options in the squad in the backs now so not too bad. Looking forward to the game not so much the tedious abe crowd going all frothy about our loss/win or draw.

I'm another who doesn't quite get the constant Ewels inclusion, very strange.

Tuilagi is a real option at 12 for me, although I'm not sure about throwing him straight in there. We know he's good in contact, but more so he scares the hell out defences and will create bags of space for those outside him....although we'd need a flyer to fully take advantage, not Slade.

No idea what to make of the backrow makeup. If Mercer is at 8, we'd need a strong, decent carrying 6......Wilson seems the only option. I'm going for:

1. Hepburn
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Wilson
7. Curry
8. Mercer

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Daly

I suspect Sgt that Eddie will start Itoje at 6 with Ewels and Kruis in the engine room. No specialist 2nd row on the bench with Itoje providing the cover from 6 in case of injury. We will find out tomorrow as second guessing Eddie is a tough job. I never expected Morgan and Rhodes to be sent home.

hugehandoff wrote:I suspect Sgt that Eddie will start Itoje at 6 with Ewels and Kruis in the engine room. No specialist 2nd row on the bench with Itoje providing the cover from 6 in case of injury. 

 I really hope not. It will take a lot to convince me that a pack with Ewels at 5 and Itoje at 6 is stronger than one with Itoje at 5 and Wilson or Shields at 6.


It is perfectly possible we could see the following team:

Moon, Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis, Ewels, Itoje, Shields, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Tuilagi, May, Ashton

I take everyone is feeling a little negative then? I still expect a relatively easy win coming up perhaps surprisingly given how many people we donate to other countries (a little nod to the wums on the other thread now deceased).

No 7&1/2 wrote:I take everyone is feeling a little negative then? I still expect a relatively easy win coming up perhaps surprisingly given how many people we donate to other countries (a little nod to the wums on the other thread now deceased).

10 point win for england

No 7&1/2 wrote:I take everyone is feeling a little negative then? 

Yes. I am not sure we have solved our breakdown issues, and I struggle to see how we will provide our half backs with any front foot ball, thus I expect to see us using Manu as a battering ram for as long as it takes to break him again.

Yeah we could always just pick a couple of Welsh lads to fill the gaps, I'm sure it won't be a problem, 1 passport and all

Glad you made it out alive collapse.

I'm a touch worried to say the least om how loosehead will go. Tbh happy if sinckler starts. I share your thoughts a little with the locks and 6 8 decisions. Pretty happy we have the option of Tuilagi and slade or Farrell on midfield though. Don't think he'll be playing crash ball all game simply offering a different option. Daly and mo brown signifies a bit of a change which is promising.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Glad you made it out alive collapse.

I know. It was getting quite Orwellian in there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I take everyone is feeling a little negative then?

I was wondering what's missing from my England experience, and it might be that it seems a long time since we handed a debut cap to someone, and watched him stride on the international stage as if to the manor born.

Ok, I know it usually takes more than one debut match but I'm envious of some of the young Irish players coming through, and the way some young Boks and All Blacks have stood up. I'm even envious of a player like Josh Navidi. He got his first cap a while ago but, when called on again, because injuries left the cupboard bare, he played his heart out for Wales.

Itoje and Elliot Daly are probably the last two who showed that kind of class in an England shirt., and both their debuts were February 2016. perhaps people like Shields, Sinckler, Isiekwe, Lozowski, Simmonds, Underhill, Genge etc will show their class but the jury is still out.

By contrast, I remember being really excited by the early performances of players like Foden, Lawes, Ashton, Ben Youngs, Delon Armitage and Corbisiero. When Lancaster took over, we saw Farrell, Parling, Marler, the Vunipolas and Ford.

I suppose over these games, I want someone who hasn't really been part of Jones' plans, and preferably someone new, to play so well, we all wonder why he wasn't an obvious first choice contender in our minds before. People you are happy to see in the team because you know they'll cause trouble for the opposition.

Curry. I expect shields to pick up some plaudits as well. Tuilagi will take headlines. Cokanasiga is blatantly already picking up a motm vs Japan.

Bit harsh Fan -
Underhill (admittedly when fit) took to test rugby like a duck to water - its just a shame his shoulders weren't up to it.
Hopefully that's sorted and he can go back to talking players with his head.

Sinkler had glimpses when given a chance behind Cole - but much like Corbisiero he really shone on the Lions.

Bit harsh also saying that Curry hasn't taken his chance - we are just waiting to see what he could do in a dominant pack!

propdavid_london wrote:Bit harsh Fan -
Underhill (admittedly when fit) took to test rugby like a duck to water - its just a shame his shoulders weren't up to it.
Hopefully that's sorted and he can go back to talking players with his head.

Sinkler had glimpses when given a chance behind Cole - but much like Corbisiero he really shone on the Lions.

Bit harsh also saying that Curry hasn't taken his chance - we are just waiting to see what he could do in a dominant pack!

It's purely subjective, and I'll concede that I often respond to superficial aspects of performances, so my judgement isn't very reliable.

With Underhill, it matters that he got injured and couldn't continue his challenge. Injuries are the reason we don't rave about the England careers of James Forrester and Tom Rees, who I also liked in their early appearances.

Curry didn't perform badly but, if I was told he'd been beaten to the seven jersey by Underhill, Kvesic or even someone like Graham, I wouldn't think "How could Jones make that blunder?" I genuinely don't know who is best out of that group, and Jack Willis will complicate matters later. If I thought they were all great players, I wouldn't really care but they still seem more about potential, than proven Test match hardness.

Sinckler was fair with the Lions but I'd imagine one of the strongest memories we have of him from that tour is overreacting, and almost getting a key penalty overturned before Conor Murray and Jamie George got him out of the way.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for any England player to show up and take a game by the scruff of the neck. If Curry and/or Sinckler can do it, I'd be delighted.