Interesting article about wage spend

by RugbyFan100 Fri 21 Sep 2018, 10:19 am

First topic message reminder :

Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

by RugbyFan100 Wed 26 Sep 2018, 6:19 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1. ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2. Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3. Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4. Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5. Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6. RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7. Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8. Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9. Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10. Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11. Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12. CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13. US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14. SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

It looks like you don't understand that there's a salary cap in France so "budget" is irrelevant to that, other than the spend can't be higher than 52% of the budget.

Agen aren't allowed to spend more than € 6.4 million yet those who can afford to will spend up to the € 11.3 million salary cap, and in Stade's case they have finished below them. This implies that the French salary cap has little bearing on success.

That still ignores the fact that Castres can, and probably are spending close to the salary cap. And therefore not far off what the top teams in the league are.

by marty2086 Wed 26 Sep 2018, 9:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1. ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2. Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3. Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4. Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5. Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6. RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7. Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8. Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9. Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10. Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11. Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12. CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13. US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14. SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

It looks like you don't understand that there's a salary cap in France so "budget" is irrelevant to that, other than the spend can't be higher than 52% of the budget.

Agen aren't allowed to spend more than € 6.4 million yet those who can afford to will spend up to the € 11.3 million salary cap, and in Stade's case they have finished below them. This implies that the French salary cap has little bearing on success.

That still ignores the fact that Castres can, and probably are spending close to the salary cap. And therefore not far off what the top teams in the league are.

Based on?

by RugbyFan100 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:07 am

marty2086 wrote:]

Based on?

Having a brain.

by SecretFly Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:23 am

So please synopsise someone.

What the hell is the actual Point of this thread? You know, what's the interesting point being highlighted by the initial post? I think the focus has been inevitably lost.

It can't be that the IRFU have an unfair advantage (again) because Rugby Fan seems to intimate that he appreciates the effectiveness of the Irish system and can't see why Irish posters want to disguise or disown the truth that Irish rugby is effectively funded.

So - is this thread then a criticism of the Welsh system? Is that what the interesting stats highlight?

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:26 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:]

Based on?

Having a brain.

So what you are saying is you just made it up?

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:27 am

SecretFly wrote:So please synopsise someone.

What the hell is the actual Point of this thread? You know, what's the interesting point being highlighted by the initial post? I think the focus has been inevitably lost.

It can't be that the IRFU have an unfair advantage (again) because Rugby Fan seems to intimate that he appreciates the effectiveness of the Irish system and can't see why Irish posters want to disguise or disown the truth that Irish rugby is effectively funded.

So - is this thread then a criticism of the Welsh system? Is that what the interesting stats highlight?

Well the original post was wrong as actual figures have proved

by RugbyFan100 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:]

Based on?

Having a brain.

So what you are saying is you just made it up?

No. It is a fact. One that you cannot grasp no matter how many times it's pointed out to you.

If the Cap = 10m, Anyone with a budget of 19.25m or so can theoretically spend up to the cap. So it's impossible to correlate league positions to budgets of 19m or 32m. GCSE maths.

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:34 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:]

Based on?

Having a brain.

So what you are saying is you just made it up?

No. It is a fact. One that you cannot grasp no matter how many times it's pointed out to you.

If the Cap = 10m, Anyone with a budget of 19.25m or so can theoretically spend up to the cap. So it's impossible to correlate league positions to budgets of 19m or 32m. GCSE maths.

Except for the fact that the rules link salary spend to turnover, so again...you just made it up

by RugbyFan100 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:37 am

marty2086 wrote:

Except for the fact that the rules link salary spend to turnover, so again...you just made it up

[facepalm]

Read it again Marty

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:39 am

I don't need to, you claimed 'Castres can, and probably are spending close to the salary cap. And therefore not far off what the top teams in the league are.'

You pulled that out of thin air, there is nothing to support that. Theoretically all their players could all be playing for peanuts.

by SecretFly Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:41 am

Are you criticising Welsh Regional rugby, RugbyFan? Was that the interesting bit and your reason for posting?

by RugbyFan100 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 9:43 am

marty2086 wrote:I don't need to, you claimed 'Castres can, and probably are spending close to the salary cap. And therefore not far off what the top teams in the league are.'

You pulled that out of thin air, there is nothing to support that. Theoretically all their players could all be playing for peanuts.

Exactly. You've perfectly highlighted why there's close to zero potential analysis for correlation between budget and league position (apart from probably the bottom 3 teams in the budget table). Cheers.

guinness

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 10:04 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I don't need to, you claimed 'Castres can, and probably are spending close to the salary cap. And therefore not far off what the top teams in the league are.'

You pulled that out of thin air, there is nothing to support that. Theoretically all their players could all be playing for peanuts.

Exactly. You've perfectly highlighted why there's close to zero potential analysis for correlation between budget and league position (apart from probably the bottom 3 teams in the budget table). Cheers.

Well considering the original post was used to highlight that limiting salaries does not offer a level playing field and that spending more money doesn't guarantee success

Not to mention it's easy enough to point out that with a bigger budget, 24m, Castres only spent 8.5m....7th biggest budget at the time with the 7th biggest wage bill and there being a strong past correlation between budgets and salary spends?

by Brendan Thu 27 Sep 2018, 10:17 am

The French cap is only based on a 35 man squad so not all wage costs are covered in the cap

by marty2086 Thu 27 Sep 2018, 10:24 am

A bit like the English cap where not everyone falls within the cap, not to mention the different credits the English clubs receive plus injured players don't always count

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:13 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one.

Didn't the WRU bail Scarlets out a few years back ? I would call that a massive helping hand. But your correct, nobody else got anything on the back of that deal.

Yeah, that’s what I mean. Perhaps it was before the RSA. Since the RSA each region needs to be treated, and helped, equally. Still not sure of the implications of the WRU sitting on the board of the Dragons in terms of dividends, etc.

You need to make a profit in order to pay a dividend and dividends are paid to shareholders, whilst Directors aren't necessarily shareholders.

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:15 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

In which case, those people are particularly stupid as there was no bail out.

Stradey was sold at below market value to the WRU with the agreement that it could be bought back at that price within a set period of time. During that period before the buy back, the Turks paid the WRU a rental.

Also during that time, the WRU used Stradey (at its market value) as collateral on one of its own bank loans.

Therefore, this was never a bail out.

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:17 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1. ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2. Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3. Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4. Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5. Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6. RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7. Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8. Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9. Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10. Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11. Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12. CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13. US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14. SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

It looks like you don't understand that there's a salary cap in France so "budget" is irrelevant to that, other than the spend can't be higher than 52% of the budget.

Agen aren't allowed to spend more than € 6.4 million yet those who can afford to will spend up to the € 11.3 million salary cap, and in Stade's case they have finished below them. This implies that the French salary cap has little bearing on success.

So one team having a poor season is proof enough for you that the cap has little bearing on success? All whilst teams with the 12th and 13th budgets were relegated and those able to spend to the cap won the Brennus?

I think that you need to go back to school.

by LordDowlais Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:35 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

In which case, those people are particularly stupid as there was no bail out.

Stradey was sold at below market value to the WRU with the agreement that it could be bought back at that price within a set period of time. During that period before the buy back, the Turks paid the WRU a rental.

Also during that time, the WRU used Stradey (at its market value) as collateral on one of its own bank loans.

Therefore, this was never a bail out.

Sounds like a helping hand from the WRU to me. They should never got involved.

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:38 am

Brendan wrote:The French cap is only based on a 35 man squad so not all wage costs are covered in the cap

Which wages aren't covered in the cap? Maybe you could let Altrad know so the he doesn't break in again the future.

For those of you interested, the last DNACG report put Castres in the group of lowest spenders, whose average wage bill (before tax) was €7.5m (the tax on the total wage bill was €3.7m).

That doesn't say that Castres spend that much, but they were in the group of clubs reported as spending below the cap (Brive, Bayonne, Grenoble, La Rochelle and Pau) in 2016/17.

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 9:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Sounds like a helping hand from the WRU to me. They should never got involved.

Had they not got involved they would not have made money from the rent and not have been able to take the loan for which Stradey was the collateral.

So they would have been commercially stupid to not get involved.

If you and your mates want to see a proper bail out then your ire should be focused on Neath.

by LordDowlais Thu 04 Oct 2018, 10:22 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sounds like a helping hand from the WRU to me. They should never got involved.

Had they not got involved they would not have made money from the rent and not have been able to take the loan for which Stradey was the collateral.

So they would have been commercially stupid to not get involved.

If you and your mates want to see a proper bail out then your ire should be focused on Neath.

It was a helping hand from the WRU, no matter how you try and pretty it up. So just give over.

by PhilBB Thu 04 Oct 2018, 4:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

It was a helping hand from the WRU, no matter how you try and pretty it up. So just give over.

A "helping hand" is a mile from your initial claim of a "bail out"

by The Great Aukster Thu 04 Oct 2018, 5:58 pm

Since the salary cap was introduced Stade Francais have appeared in one T14 final, while in the 8 year period before the cap they appeared in four finals. Their average finishing position pre-cap was 3rd while after they slumped to 9th.
Contrast that with Toulon who were not in the top league for most of the pre-cap period but for the years they were they had an average position of 8th, but post cap that rose to 3rd and they appeared in finals five times.
Both teams can afford to spend the full salary allowance, yet Toulon have consistently finished above Stade Francais since the cap while the reverse happened before it. The cap in this example has skewed one team's dominance to another teams dominance.

Consider Castres who had an average league finish of 7th before the cap and 6th after and compare to Clermont who had a pre-cap average of 4th and a post-cap average of 3rd. In both cases the introduction of the cap hasn't made much difference to their competitiveness.

Is there any evidence to support the notion that the salary cap has any beneficial effect on competitiveness in the League?

by Brendan Thu 04 Oct 2018, 7:29 pm

But they are all French teams. Caps only make a difference in the Pro14

On a serious note wages are only a value of what the club and the player agreed the player was worth at the time. If Bristol stay in the Premiership they will not be paying Madigan the wages he is on now as they won't be so desperate to get a good out half to play in the championship. Or to pay someone a king's ransom for taking a chance on them

by LordDowlais Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:32 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

It was a helping hand from the WRU, no matter how you try and pretty it up. So just give over.

A "helping hand" is a mile from your initial claim of a "bail out"

It was the same thing. You know it, and I know it.

If it did not happen, what would have happened to Scarlets ?

They were bailed out, stop splitting hairs.

by marty2086 Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:13 am

Brendan wrote:But they are all French teams. Caps only make a difference in the Pro14

On a serious note wages are only a value of what the club and the player agreed the player was worth at the time. If Bristol stay in the Premiership they will not be paying Madigan the wages he is on now as they won't be so desperate to get a good out half to play in the championship. Or to pay someone a king's ransom for taking a chance on them

He's signed on for next season already though isn't he? Don't they have a young 10 they rate coming through behind him too? May be a case of developing him over the next few years then handing the 10 shirt to him if he's up to the job

by Brendan Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
Brendan wrote:But they are all French teams. Caps only make a difference in the Pro14

On a serious note wages are only a value of what the club and the player agreed the player was worth at the time. If Bristol stay in the Premiership they will not be paying Madigan the wages he is on now as they won't be so desperate to get a good out half to play in the championship. Or to pay someone a king's ransom for taking a chance on them

He's signed on for next season already though isn't he? Don't they have a young 10 they rate coming through behind him too? May be a case of developing him over the next few years then handing the 10 shirt to him if he's up to the job

True. The point is like with Chelsea and Manchester City in soccer Bristol are a grand club in their owners eyes but from a player point of view they are at best a yoyo club. In order for the two soccer players to improve they had to pay vast sums of money to players at the start as players were potentially giving up trophies to join. Until Bristol are seen in the same light as other top teams like Tigers, Wasp and Saints they must pay players a higher wage to convice them to join Bristol rather than Wasps. As a result Bristols wage bill is not a reflection of their squad but rather a reflection of where they have come from. Sarries on the other hand can offer lower wages as they are offering trophies and 99% chance of Champions Cup which in turn leads to international honours especially with so many internationals already there. As a result Sarries wages could be viewed as a lower reflection of what there squad is actually worth.

So a young player gets offered 300k by Bristol and could end up fighting relegation for three years and losing a lot and being seen as a relegation team standard player. Along comes Sarries and offers 250k to the player saying how he could be an international and make up the 50k in 2-3 caps and how they have brought through young players to be internationals. The play knows he will have medals and will look great in a winning team thus improving the next contract.
Who does the player choose?

by The Great Aukster Fri 05 Oct 2018, 12:56 pm

When Sarries say they are paying 250k - they mean in Bitcoin. No one's cottoned yet but it explains why they're under the salary cap yet gazillions in debt.

by PhilBB Fri 05 Oct 2018, 1:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

It was a helping hand from the WRU, no matter how you try and pretty it up. So just give over.

A "helping hand" is a mile from your initial claim of a "bail out"

It was the same thing. You know it, and I know it.

If it did not happen, what would have happened to Scarlets ?

They were bailed out, stop splitting hairs.

Jesus wept, if you're in charge of running a business then God knows how it is still trading.

If the Turks hadn't have sold the ground to the WRU, they'd have sold it to another finance house for exactly the same type of deal. Sure, they'd have paid more in interest / rent, but the same result would have happened.

This is simple asset financing of a business.

Anybody running a business wouldn't have written the childlike garbage of your post above.

by PhilBB Fri 05 Oct 2018, 1:49 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:When Sarries say they are paying 250k - they mean in Bitcoin. No one's cottoned yet but it explains why they're under the salary cap yet gazillions in debt.

Anybody who has read their accounts would understand their financing position and they wouldn't have written the garbage you've just produced.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 05 Oct 2018, 2:01 pm

Well saracens are 1 of 2 clubs to have broken the spending cap recently.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 05 Oct 2018, 2:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well saracens are 1 of 2 clubs to have broken the spending cap recently.

Not officially

by No 7&1/2 Fri 05 Oct 2018, 2:25 pm

Officially sealed. Think they're waiting until after the world cup....

by Brendan Fri 05 Oct 2018, 4:20 pm

From a premiership point of view is the cap good, bad or no difference.

Due to Tigers decline you have a top 3 and then everyone else. Only Sarries may have issues with the cap but the other two seemed to be fine. Teams Like LI aren't really going to spend to the cap as I would assume a few others, who do well with what they have.
Raising/removing the cap makes no difference to them. If the cap was removed in the morning would you see Sarries, Bath and Bristol buying up all available talent and running away from the rest of the teams or would you see Bath continuing to be poorly run and rubbish.

If a cap was introduced in the morning into the PRO14 it would be set at the highest level currently being spent. I can't see any team increasing their spend just because it came in so would make no difference. Its notvlike the kings, Dargons or Treviso are saying how they have money to spend but don't feel they can unless there is a cal.
Only issue I would see is players like Lamour, Ryan and others would still be on academy contracts or playing elsewhere (I assume there would be an unwritten rule in Ireland that you don't raid each other's academies).

How do academy players being signed up on big professional contracts work for the cap. Itoje must have had a massive raise from academy to professional contract

by marty2086 Fri 05 Oct 2018, 4:40 pm

Listening to Ben Kay talking a few weeks ago, he's on the Leicester board and on one of their committees (Professional Managagement?). He was talking about the challenges of staying within the cap, players at the club regularly looking for payrises was mentioned, if that's happening every year and the cap stays the same you end up getting squeezed, he said Leicester may have to cut some players loose to stay within the cap.

You also have to factor in that it's not just a guy getting £300k a year and that is attributed to the salary cap. You have National Insurance contributions included in there, pension costs, bonuses, image rights, agent fees, loans, signing fees, accommodation or holiday costs.

Then you can take away the credits clubs receives for EQ players and academy players etc. Then you injured players who if out for long enough are discounted, then you add in injury jokers and can exclude two players from the cap.

Sounds like a proper headache for those at the clubs having to maintain it and if you get too close to it, it's easy to see how you can go over with a miscalculation here or there

by The Great Aukster Mon 08 Oct 2018, 1:13 pm

So in summary a salary cap is an administrative nightmare and there is no proof it makes one iota of difference to competitiveness.

by marty2086 Mon 08 Oct 2018, 1:58 pm

It can be a nightmare but the cap is pretty much like any budget I guess though in terms of administering

by Irish Londoner Tue 09 Oct 2018, 10:44 am

The Great Aukster wrote:When Sarries say they are paying 250k - they mean in Bitcoin. No one's cottoned yet but it explains why they're under the salary cap yet gazillions in debt.

There was a case a while back where a company, IRRC in the City of London that paid it's staff annual bonuses in gold guineas as technically as a coin of the realm the face value was £1.05 so they didn't have to pay tax on it as their bonus was "legally" £5.25.

by PhilBB Tue 09 Oct 2018, 4:59 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:So in summary a salary cap is an administrative nightmare and there is no proof it makes one iota of difference to competitiveness.

Other than the proof you've ignored.

by The Great Aukster Tue 09 Oct 2018, 5:34 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Since the salary cap was introduced Stade Francais have appeared in one T14 final, while in the 8 year period before the cap they appeared in four finals. Their average finishing position pre-cap was 3rd while after they slumped to 9th.
Contrast that with Toulon who were not in the top league for most of the pre-cap period but for the years they were they had an average position of 8th, but post cap that rose to 3rd and they appeared in finals five times.
Both teams can afford to spend the full salary allowance, yet Toulon have consistently finished above Stade Francais since the cap while the reverse happened before it. The cap in this example has skewed one team's dominance to another teams dominance.

Consider Castres who had an average league finish of 7th before the cap and 6th after and compare to Clermont who had a pre-cap average of 4th and a post-cap average of 3rd. In both cases the introduction of the cap hasn't made much difference to their competitiveness.

Is there any ~~evidence~~ proof to support the notion that the salary cap has any beneficial effect on competitiveness in the League?

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