Interesting article about wage spend

First topic message reminder :

Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

Is it obligatory that any cross border discussion on the finances of the Pro14 has to turn into something reminiscent of pre-schoolers in a sand pit?

LondonTiger wrote:Is it obligatory that any cross border discussion on the finances of the Pro14 has to turn into something reminiscent of pre-schoolers in a sand pit?

He started it!

That's all we need, the bloody teacher is back from the phone call he had to make after putting RugbyFan in charge until he returned.

The fun is over. Sorry for hitting you in the back of the neck with my ruler, Marty. Don't tell him I did it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

There's some real ignorance about player spend in Ireland, isn't there?

The IRFU spent €37.2m on player and management costs across its four teams, according to its last annual report. On top of that, there is €3.8m for "National Match Costs", €3m on Academies and €3.3m on Elite Performance.

Yet the author of that drivel expects us to believe Connacht have a £7m salary bill?

And I see that we're still spreading the nonsense about Ulster's playing cost being £5.5m, completely ignoring the top ups on EACH contract from the IRFU, let alone the players who Ulster contribute nothing towards.

Telepathy is real.  These two lads are joined cerebrally.  Chakra Attack as Dr Ray De Angelo Harris might say.   Ummmmmmm duality!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:


You use the Irish Times as your source... Forgive me for not accepting anything they provide. I don't think Denis obrien would ever throw money around like this for the sake of it. There is always something in it for him, whether it's for tax breaks or to further promote his companies brand.

Funny how all the articles I post are dismissed as "not acceptable".    

As for your second point - that's what some ignorants say about benefactors of the game in the likes of England, France and Wales - and time and time again they are proved wrong.

What can you expect when you use the Irish media as a source, the truth?? Of course those articles are not going to be blindly accepted as the way things are. I've seen the media lie time and time again to protect the interests of the rich including Denis O'Brien

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

There's some real ignorance about player spend in Ireland, isn't there?

The IRFU spent €37.2m on player and management costs across its four teams, according to its last annual report. On top of that, there is €3.8m for "National Match Costs", €3m on Academies and €3.3m on Elite Performance.

Yet the author of that drivel expects us to believe Connacht have a £7m salary bill?

And I see that we're still spreading the nonsense about Ulster's playing cost being £5.5m, completely ignoring the top ups on EACH contract from the IRFU, let alone the players who Ulster contribute nothing towards.

Shock and horror as a successful company spends loads of money on wages, is this supposed to be a bad thing or would you like the IRFU to hold back on wages and line their own pockets?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

There's some real ignorance about player spend in Ireland, isn't there?

The IRFU spent €37.2m on player and management costs across its four teams, according to its last annual report. On top of that, there is €3.8m for "National Match Costs", €3m on Academies and €3.3m on Elite Performance.

Yet the author of that drivel expects us to believe Connacht have a £7m salary bill?

And I see that we're still spreading the nonsense about Ulster's playing cost being £5.5m, completely ignoring the top ups on EACH contract from the IRFU, let alone the players who Ulster contribute nothing towards.

Shock and horror as a successful company spends loads of money on wages, is this supposed to be a bad thing or would you like the IRFU to hold back on wages and line their own pockets?

Not supposed to be a bad thing. It's more challenging the notion that 'everyone spends about the same'.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Shock and horror as a successful company spends loads of money on wages, is this supposed to be a bad thing or would you like the IRFU to hold back on wages and line their own pockets?

I think that it is bloody marvellous and should be celebrated, but so many Irish rugby followers seem totally embarrassed by the spend.

The Oracle wrote:
Not supposed to be a bad thing.  It's more challenging the notion that 'everyone spends about the same'.

I can't remember if that Rugby Pass drivel mentioned the Irish Sports Person's tax relief. Do you know if it did?

If not, we can notch up the "disingenuous levels" another 40%.

I would say that head coach has a bigger impact on league results than wages.

Crowley went into Benneton and told they they should expect to win games not give it a game. They improved
Cockerill tells Edinburgh that if they fall off tackles and don't try in the hard games they will be finding a new club. The team become stubborn to play against and don't get dominated up front.
Jackman tells the media is squad is rubbish and they are writing off the season. The squad fall apart and do terrible the rest of the season.
Keane is grumpy. Connacht have a terrible season and the players don't seem to play with the happy go lucky style.
Rennie is use to 18 game season and has his squad primed for it and they bit everyone in the league. His team falls over the line at the end of a 21 game season and get blown away because His squad is tired. He is not use to power games so comes unstuck in Europe as He faces 3 power teams.

The wages I would like to see are the management costs rather than the playing costs

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Shock and horror as a successful company spends loads of money on wages, is this supposed to be a bad thing or would you like the IRFU to hold back on wages and line their own pockets?

I think that it is bloody marvellous and should be celebrated, but so many Irish rugby followers seem totally embarrassed by the spend.

You must not listen to Ulster fans and their upset at wasted money over the years.

All we want is fair comparisons not the "Welsh spend pennies" when they clearly aren't. Maybe it is the certain pro14 disliking Welsh who are embrassed at what they spend v return. I think most of us are of the opinion that smart money and smart coaches win things.

Brendan wrote:
All we want is fair comparisons not the "Welsh spend pennies" when they clearly aren't.  Maybe it is the certain pro14 disliking Welsh who are embrassed at what they spend v return.  I think most of us are of the opinion that smart money and smart coaches win things.

I don't see a single reason why any Welsh rugby supporter should be embarrassed with regards to the wage bills of our four pro teams, apart from maybe some discontent at Rodney Parade.

The Welsh player wage bills are clearly, demonstrably and obviously far less than the IRFU spends and, guess what, Welsh teams don't do as well.

That's pro sport for you.

Why are the Welsh so under appreciated? Or at least for the lower levels. Players like moriarty have been offered more money than the English can afford.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Players like moriarty have been offered more money than the English can afford.

Now that's blatantly untrue.

Ok. More than the English clubs were willing to offer.

PhilBB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Really puts in perspective, how tough it is for some Pro14 teams to keep up with others in terms of paying for their squads, and being able to pay for quality overseas players.

While the PRO14 has no official salary caps, the four Irish provinces player cost amount to roughly £7 million, which is on par with the English Premiership’s cap.

Welsh and Scottish teams operate on less again. The SRU have been quoted as stating that Edinburgh Rugby has a player budget of £4.8m, while Glasgow Warriors operates on approximately £5.1 million.

The Welsh regions have a budget in and around the £5 million mark, varying slightly on each region.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/top14s-massive-salary-cap-now-dwarfs-that-of-the-premiership-confirmed/

There's some real ignorance about player spend in Ireland, isn't there?

The IRFU spent €37.2m on player and management costs across its four teams, according to its last annual report. On top of that, there is €3.8m for "National Match Costs", €3m on Academies and €3.3m on Elite Performance.

Yet the author of that drivel expects us to believe Connacht have a £7m salary bill?

And I see that we're still spreading the nonsense about Ulster's playing cost being £5.5m, completely ignoring the top ups on EACH contract from the IRFU, let alone the players who Ulster contribute nothing towards.

Hmm.   Not quite accurate, Phil.  

From the 2018 IRFU Annual Report:
“The cost of the National team together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams is included in professional game costs in Schedule 3. The increase of almost €1.2m arises mainly from bonuses payable in respect of performance achievements at both National and Provincial level, the increased cost of touring in the USA and Japan compared with South Africa in 2016/17 and the increased funding provided to the Provincial teams on the back of the increase in Pro14 revenues.”

Within Professional Game Costs in Schedule 3 are:
a) the costs of national tours, camps and squads (mainly to to US and Japan), €1.38m
b) the costs associated with hosting national matches, €3.8m - and lastly, as you refer in your post
c) the Player and Management costs of €37.2m.  

This last tranche of €37.2m includes all of the National Team salary costs of Schmidt, Feek, Easterby, Farrell and the other 7 or 8 people directly involved in managing the national team.  

It also includes all test match fees and test performance bonuses (e.g. Grand Slam), for management as well as players.   These have been steadily increasing over the years.  To quote Gerry Thornley from The Irish Times prior to the England GS match: “As part of their policy of retaining their players in the provincial system, players contracts are incentivised and so they receive roughly a third of the prize money which goes the way of the IRFU. This is based on appearances in the 23-man matchday squad, meaning that those players who have been regulars throughout the five-game campaign are already in line for a bonus of around €60,000 per player, or €12,000 per game, which would rise to €75,000 per player should they complete a Grand Slam.”

(By way of comparison, in 2013/14, the IRFU states it made a “€23.8m contribution to the four Provincial teams and their Academies”, against an overall figure for Player & Management Costs of €27.9m.).

Lastly, the sum of €37.2m includes the financial contributions to the provinces funded in part by the Competition Income (CI) of €12.4m generated by the four provinces from PRO14 and EPCR comps, and it includes the salaries of the 15 Category A “central” contract players.

Thus, the contribution to the provinces can also include monies towards player salaries, performance bonuses, insurance costs, financing of ventures or additional coaching resources and facilities, depending on requirements and affordability.  

In short, the IRFU contribution monies to the provinces are not split equally and it’s not just for players’ salaries.

Clearly, Leinster did better than the other three in the comps and would receive more CI money pro rata.  

In addition, the cost of the central contract Cat A players are covered by the Union, and Leinster have most of those.  Connacht have none.  Aki, Marmion and Dillane are all contracted directly with their province on Category B, C, D, etc., contracts.

As you know, the IRFU contribute a certain amount to players’ contracts at the province depending on their category.  It’s not a top-up to the players agreed salary, it’s a contribution from the IRFU to the province to pay the agreed salary e.g. let’s say a player on a provincial contract is paid €175k by the province - the club might receive a €40k IRFU contribution towards that salary.    

The Union agreed in recent years to allow the provinces to directly top up a players contract earnings through corporate sponsorship agreements, etc.  In other words, the IRFU may say the max we’re prepared to pay is €325,000 for a player whose agent is looking for €375k.  The club might decide to get a corporate backer to fund the balance for the period of the contract through a product promotion, etc.    This “top-up” would not be treated as salary and as such would not be calculated by Revenue in working out PAYE tax credit relief at the end of the player’s career under the terms of the Sportspersons Tax Relief Act.

Surely the cost of Schmidt et al is covered by the €3.3m high performance unit, the €3.8m "National Match Costs", let alone the €1.4m spent on "National tours, camps and squads" all of which is outside of the €37.2m.

As you know, all players are contracted to the IRFU so all of their costs will be shown in that €37.2m (bar any outside sponsorship deals provided locally).

It's interesting that your reference to 2013 shows how quickly player costs have risen in Ireland - €10m through the books in 4 years or so.

Of course, the "contribution to the provinces for insurance costs, financing of ventures or additional coaching resources and facilities" is not included in the €37.2m.

You side stepped the question there Phil. Why are the Welsh players or some.of the ones who aren't big names so under appreciated?

PhilBB wrote:Surely the cost of Schmidt et al is covered by the €3.3m high performance unit, the €3.8m "National Match Costs", let alone the €1.4m spent on "National tours, camps and squads" all of which is outside of the €37.2m.

As you know, all players are contracted to the IRFU so all of their costs will be shown in that €37.2m (bar any outside sponsorship deals provided locally).

It's interesting that your reference to 2013 shows how quickly player costs have risen in Ireland - €10m through the books in 4 years or so.

Of course, the "contribution to the provinces for insurance costs, financing of ventures or additional coaching resources and facilities" is not included in the €37.2m.

No, the cost of Schmidt et al is not covered by the HP Unit.  That’s David Nucifora’s team of about 24/25 people and their facilities/resources.  The National Team Management is separate.  

The national match costs are the costs involved in hosting matches - the various AR notes that these vary according to number of matches played in Lansdowne each year.   And the costs for organizing and logistics of national tour camps and squads are just that.  

“Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the player and management costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams.”

In total the Union’s costs have increased by c. €4.8m from €66.2m last year to €71m in 2015/16. The professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs of the National team together with player and management costs. The decrease in match, tour and camp costs is due to no tour taking place in a Rugby World Cup year, operational savings and the different cost profile of warm-up matches.


All IRFU contributions to provincial players’ salaries would be in the Player & Management costs as I’ve outlined in the example I provided above.   And the P&M costs would include  things like insurance or additional coaching resources because Annual Reports make reference to these kind of things when commenting on increases to P&M costs. For example:

2015/16 Report: “The increase of over €5m in player and management costs arises from the necessity to provide against operational amounts due from the Munster Branch in light of their current financial difficulties. In addition to this the Union has paid an additional unbudgeted amount of €250k to each Province to assist with the difficulties being experienced by all in the player contracting market. Insurance costs also increased significantly over the year.”

Don’t forget the €10m increase is for all Player & Management costs, not just player salaries. So this year’s bigger than budgeted performance bonuses at national and provincial level for both management and players would be part of that.   And yes there have been cost increases over the 4-year period for both management/coaching team as well as players on national team management salaries, central contracts, insurance, and other provincial team cost contributions, including the provision for the Munster overruns quoted above.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You side stepped the question there Phil.  Why are the Welsh players or some.of the ones who aren't big names so under appreciated?

Maybe people do not understand the question. Which ones are under-appreciated? By whom? In what way?

Well you have the guys on the real.big.bucks.but the club's lag behind in paying the players. Means there must be great deal.of players on not very much. I'm assuming he's interested in why the Welsh under pay while.being able to outbid the perceived big spenders of the premier league.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You side stepped the question there Phil.  Why are the Welsh players or some.of the ones who aren't big names so under appreciated?

Maybe people do not understand the question.  Which ones are under-appreciated?  By whom?  In what way?

Yeah, its not exactly a well constructed question...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok. More than the English clubs were willing to offer.

Moriarty was a different case - When he nailed his colours to a welsh mast his club couldn't get the additional support they would have had for an English qualified player.
Quality player but he was always going to go to a welsh region to further his international career.

And get more money as an aside prop. Just find it interesting that there are a couple of Welsh fans who take constant digs over spending from the Irish in particular and turn a blind eye to everything else.

From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1.  ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2.  Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3.  Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4.  Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5.  Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6.  RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7.  Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8.  Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9.   Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10.  Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11.  Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12.  CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13.  US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14.  SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

No 7&1/2 wrote:And get more money as an aside prop. Just find it interesting that there are a couple of Welsh fans who take constant digs over spending from the Irish in particular and turn a blind eye to everything else.

I think Moriaty is the only example of where a region has 'broken the bank' to get a player. There are far more examples (like, every other one) where regions lost players to England and France because they couldn't match the wages.

Like PhillBB says, we've not got a problem with others spending more. We all aspire to spend like Leinster, and good on them. We've just got a problem with people saying all the Pro14 clubs spend 'about the same' when they don't, and then criticise the welsh regions for not doing as well in the league as others (bringing shame on the league, or words to that effect. 'Get your house in order'. 'Focus on bringing your guys home as losing them is damaging the league'. 'More welsh internationals at the regions will lead to bigger crowds. Having empty stadia is damaging the league from a sponsorship point of view'. Comments we've had over the years). It's not a whinge about level playing fields, although lots of posters twist it that way. It's just acknowledgement that, just as in England and France, not everyone in the league has the same budgets. And that's fine. But this difference does exist.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And get more money as an aside prop. Just find it interesting that there are a couple of Welsh fans who take constant digs over spending from the Irish in particular and turn a blind eye to everything else.

I think Moriaty is the only example of where a region has 'broken the bank' to get a player.  There are far more examples (like, every other one) where regions lost players to England and France because they couldn't match the wages.

Like PhillBB says, we've not got a problem with others spending more.  We all aspire to spend like Leinster, and good on them.  We've just got a problem with people saying all the Pro14 clubs spend 'about the same' when they don't, and then criticise the welsh regions for not doing as well in the league as others (bringing shame on the league, or words to that effect.  'Get your house in order'.  'Focus on bringing your guys home as losing them is damaging the league'.  'More welsh internationals at the regions will lead to bigger crowds.  Having empty stadia is damaging the league from a sponsorship point of view'.  Comments we've had over the years).  It's not a whinge about level playing fields, although lots of posters twist it that way.  It's just acknowledgement that, just as in England and France, not everyone in the league has the same budgets.  And that's fine.  But this difference does exist.  

I’d largely agree with that, Oracle. I’d expand your sentence to everyone would like to earn and spend like Leinster. As you point out different teams have different resources and levels of income and expenditure.
As I and others pointed out earlier, the notion that Connacht has a similar salary bill to Leinster is laughable.

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And get more money as an aside prop. Just find it interesting that there are a couple of Welsh fans who take constant digs over spending from the Irish in particular and turn a blind eye to everything else.

I think Moriaty is the only example of where a region has 'broken the bank' to get a player.  There are far more examples (like, every other one) where regions lost players to England and France because they couldn't match the wages.

Like PhillBB says, we've not got a problem with others spending more.  We all aspire to spend like Leinster, and good on them.  We've just got a problem with people saying all the Pro14 clubs spend 'about the same' when they don't, and then criticise the welsh regions for not doing as well in the league as others (bringing shame on the league, or words to that effect.  'Get your house in order'.  'Focus on bringing your guys home as losing them is damaging the league'.  'More welsh internationals at the regions will lead to bigger crowds.  Having empty stadia is damaging the league from a sponsorship point of view'.  Comments we've had over the years).  It's not a whinge about level playing fields, although lots of posters twist it that way.  It's just acknowledgement that, just as in England and France, not everyone in the league has the same budgets.  And that's fine.  But this difference does exist.  

I’d largely agree with that, Oracle.  I’d expand your sentence to everyone would like to earn and spend like Leinster.  As you point out different teams have different resources and levels of income and expenditure.
As I and others pointed out earlier, the notion that Connacht has a similar salary bill to Leinster is laughable.

Yes, definitely. And I don't think for one minute that anyone is suggesting ALL 4 welsh regions are bottom of the pile and everyone else from Ire, Scot, Ita and SA are above those 4. E.g. I'm sure the Scarlets will be spending above the likes of Zebre (just a guess).

Just to add and to put things into perspective - Moriarty I believe is on £500k at the Dragons. Our squad budget for this year is £4.5m according to David Buttress. So that's over 10% of the budget on one player. That both shows the challenge of getting decent players on a small budget (there's obviously no way we could get 20 top players on top salaries), but also the desperation of the Dragons to try to kickstart the region and get the ball rolling. If we only pick up cheap players and rejects then it's difficult enticing others here. With a marquee signing or two we might get the crowds increasing a bit, others may follow (but not at that level of cost) and it might see a shift in attractiveness of the Dragons. But it's a difficult balancing act. One bad knock and injury and 10% of our budget is sat on the side-lines for x number of months. So I can see the arguments for spending the money more wisely.

The WRU have not funded this though, by the way. He is not on a national dual contract. Although the WRU coming on board has meant more of the Dragons budget can actually go on wages whereas it was being spent servicing other things in the past, if I understand it correctly (waiting for PhillBB to come along and clear that one up/put me in my place ).

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And get more money as an aside prop. Just find it interesting that there are a couple of Welsh fans who take constant digs over spending from the Irish in particular and turn a blind eye to everything else.

I think Moriaty is the only example of where a region has 'broken the bank' to get a player.  There are far more examples (like, every other one) where regions lost players to England and France because they couldn't match the wages.

Like PhillBB says, we've not got a problem with others spending more.  We all aspire to spend like Leinster, and good on them.  We've just got a problem with people saying all the Pro14 clubs spend 'about the same' when they don't, and then criticise the welsh regions for not doing as well in the league as others (bringing shame on the league, or words to that effect.  'Get your house in order'.  'Focus on bringing your guys home as losing them is damaging the league'.  'More welsh internationals at the regions will lead to bigger crowds.  Having empty stadia is damaging the league from a sponsorship point of view'.  Comments we've had over the years).  It's not a whinge about level playing fields, although lots of posters twist it that way.  It's just acknowledgement that, just as in England and France, not everyone in the league has the same budgets.  And that's fine.  But this difference does exist.  

I’d largely agree with that, Oracle.  I’d expand your sentence to everyone would like to earn and spend like Leinster.  As you point out different teams have different resources and levels of income and expenditure.
As I and others pointed out earlier, the notion that Connacht has a similar salary bill to Leinster is laughable.

Yes, definitely.  And I don't think for one minute that anyone is suggesting ALL 4 welsh regions are bottom of the pile and everyone else from Ire, Scot, Ita and SA are above those 4.  E.g. I'm sure the Scarlets will be spending above the likes of Zebre (just a guess).    

Indeed. Whilst the accounts for the Irish provinces are somewhat opaque, nonetheless, Munster Rugby do report publicly on their finances each year. At their AGM in June 2018, they said their income for the year was €16.9m and expenditure similar to give a near break even position.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You side stepped the question there Phil.  Why are the Welsh players or some.of the ones who aren't big names so under appreciated?

Under appreciated by whom?

Thanks oracle.

Already fairly well answered now Phil. The players at the Welsh club arent underapprexiated just that pay matches quality to some extent.

Pot Hale wrote:
No, the cost of Schmidt et al is not covered by the HP Unit.  That’s David Nucifora’s team of about 24/25 people and their facilities/resources.  The National Team Management is separate.  

The national match costs are the costs involved in hosting matches - the various AR notes that these vary according to number of matches played in Lansdowne each year.   And the costs for organizing and logistics of national tour camps and squads are just that.  

“Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the player and management costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams.”

In total the Union’s costs have increased by c. €4.8m from €66.2m last year to €71m in 2015/16. The professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs of the National team together with player and management costs. The decrease in match, tour and camp costs is due to no tour taking place in a Rugby World Cup year, operational savings and the different cost profile of warm-up matches.


All IRFU contributions to provincial players’ salaries would be in the Player & Management costs as I’ve outlined in the example I provided above.   And the P&M costs would include  things like insurance or additional coaching resources because Annual Reports make reference to these kind of things when commenting on increases to P&M costs.   For example:

2015/16 Report: “The increase of over €5m in player and management costs arises from the necessity to provide against operational amounts due from the Munster Branch in light of their current financial difficulties. In addition to this the Union has paid an additional unbudgeted amount of €250k to each Province to assist with the difficulties being experienced by all in the player contracting market. Insurance costs also increased significantly over the year.”

Don’t forget the €10m increase is for all Player & Management costs, not just player salaries. So this year’s bigger than budgeted performance bonuses at national and provincial level for both management and players would be part of that.   And yes there have been cost increases over the 4-year period for both management/coaching team as well as players on national team management salaries, central contracts, insurance, and other provincial team cost contributions, including the provision for the Munster overruns quoted above.  

If you're reading of it is right, and I don't think that it is, it seems odd that the National Coach isn't part of the High Performance Unit. And that insurance isn't included in the "insurance" or "professional fees" expenditure.

That noted, I think that we can all agree that £7m each on all four's squad costs is, at best, misleading.

No 7&1/2 wrote: The players at the Welsh  club arent underapprexiated just that pay matches quality to some extent.

This is true. This is why a Cardiff team missing only a few players can smash Munster off the park, even though Munster were missing fewer / the same number of players.

But scratch away at the surface and, as yet, the strength in depth isn't yet in the Welsh teams.

The Great Aukster wrote:From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1.  ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2.  Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3.  Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4.  Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5.  Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6.  RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7.  Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8.  Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9.   Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10.  Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11.  Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12.  CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13.  US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14.  SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

It looks like you don't understand that there's a salary cap in France so "budget" is irrelevant to that, other than the spend can't be higher than 52% of the budget.

Pot Hale wrote:
I’d largely agree with that, Oracle.  I’d expand your sentence to everyone would like to earn and spend like Leinster.  As you point out different teams have different resources and levels of income and expenditure.
As I and others pointed out earlier, the notion that Connacht has a similar salary bill to Leinster is laughable.

Spot on.

The Oracle wrote:

The WRU have not funded this though, by the way.  He is not on a national dual contract.  Although the WRU coming on board has meant more of the Dragons budget can actually go on wages whereas it was being spent servicing other things in the past, if I understand it correctly (waiting for PhillBB to come along and clear that one up/put me in my place ).  

Not quite. The Dragons made a nominal loss of £800k according to the WRU Annual Report, but this was a manufactured figure to ensure the WRU had to pay the other three £800k each.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
No, the cost of Schmidt et al is not covered by the HP Unit.  That’s David Nucifora’s team of about 24/25 people and their facilities/resources.  The National Team Management is separate.  

The national match costs are the costs involved in hosting matches - the various AR notes that these vary according to number of matches played in Lansdowne each year.   And the costs for organizing and logistics of national tour camps and squads are just that.  

“Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the player and management costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams.”

In total the Union’s costs have increased by c. €4.8m from €66.2m last year to €71m in 2015/16. The professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs of the National team together with player and management costs. The decrease in match, tour and camp costs is due to no tour taking place in a Rugby World Cup year, operational savings and the different cost profile of warm-up matches.


All IRFU contributions to provincial players’ salaries would be in the Player & Management costs as I’ve outlined in the example I provided above.   And the P&M costs would include  things like insurance or additional coaching resources because Annual Reports make reference to these kind of things when commenting on increases to P&M costs.   For example:

2015/16 Report: “The increase of over €5m in player and management costs arises from the necessity to provide against operational amounts due from the Munster Branch in light of their current financial difficulties. In addition to this the Union has paid an additional unbudgeted amount of €250k to each Province to assist with the difficulties being experienced by all in the player contracting market. Insurance costs also increased significantly over the year.”

Don’t forget the €10m increase is for all Player & Management costs, not just player salaries. So this year’s bigger than budgeted performance bonuses at national and provincial level for both management and players would be part of that.   And yes there have been cost increases over the 4-year period for both management/coaching team as well as players on national team management salaries, central contracts, insurance, and other provincial team cost contributions, including the provision for the Munster overruns quoted above.  

If you're reading of it is right, and I don't think that it is, it seems odd that the National Coach isn't part of the High Performance Unit. And that insurance isn't included in the "insurance" or "professional fees" expenditure.

That noted, I think that we can all agree that £7m each on all four's squad costs is, at best, misleading.

If you look at the IRFU Staff section on their website, you’ll see Rugby Department (sic) headed by Nucifora and including other prominent HP people eg Anthony Eddy, etc. Another heading is National Team Management which has Schmidt, Dean, Feek, etc. That makes it pretty clear to me as to who is allocated where.

The Dragons are cooking the books on that 800k Phil?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Dragons are cooking the books on that 800k Phil?

I think it might be to do with the Rugby Service Agreement (RSA) between the regions and the WRU. Even though the WRU have bought into the Dragons and become shareholders, the RSA dictates that the WRU can’t favour one region over another (if my memory is correct), even if they are more involved in one than the others I suppose. So I guess that because the WRU has come in and paid for a few things, improved the pitch, etc. at Rodney Parade they then need to distribute funds to the other 3 regions in the interest of fairness and not falling foul of the RSA. I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one. The RSA is up for renewal currently (old Roger the Dodger had a hand in the last one) so I think the deal going forward will look a bit different. Not sure how the Dragons will stand in the new one, with them having the WRU on the board of directors. The others might argue that they are not happy with that arrangement and that Dragons should be treated differently. Who knows.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Dragons are cooking the books on that 800k Phil?

I think it might be to do with the Rugby Service Agreement (RSA) between the regions and the WRU. Even though the WRU have bought into the Dragons and become shareholders, the RSA dictates that the WRU can’t favour one region over another (if my memory is correct), even if they are more involved in one than the others I suppose. So I guess that because the WRU has come in and paid for a few things, improved the pitch, etc. at Rodney Parade they then need to distribute funds to the other 3 regions in the interest of fairness and not falling foul of the RSA. I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one. The RSA is up for renewal currently (old Roger the Dodger had a hand in the last one) so I think the deal going forward will look a bit different. Not sure how the Dragons will stand in the new one, with them having the WRU on the board of directors. The others might argue that they are not happy with that arrangement and that Dragons should be treated differently. Who knows.

How are the WRU set up as directors of the Dragons? Do they take a dividend etc and if the Dragons were to become a hugely profitable and receive a bigger dividend would that then benefit the other Regions?

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Dragons are cooking the books on that 800k Phil?

I think it might be to do with the Rugby Service Agreement (RSA) between the regions and the WRU. Even though the WRU have bought into the Dragons and become shareholders, the RSA dictates that the WRU can’t favour one region over another (if my memory is correct), even if they are more involved in one than the others I suppose. So I guess that because the WRU has come in and paid for a few things, improved the pitch, etc. at Rodney Parade they then need to distribute funds to the other 3 regions in the interest of fairness and not falling foul of the RSA. I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one. The RSA is up for renewal currently (old Roger the Dodger had a hand in the last one) so I think the deal going forward will look a bit different. Not sure how the Dragons will stand in the new one, with them having the WRU on the board of directors. The others might argue that they are not happy with that arrangement and that Dragons should be treated differently. Who knows.

How are the WRU set up as directors of the Dragons? Do they take a dividend etc and if the Dragons were to become a hugely profitable and receive a bigger dividend would that then benefit the other Regions?

Dunno. They used to be on the board of directors years ago too. When regional rugby happened Blues and Scarlets were allowed to stand alone but the other 3 had to form mergers of clubs. Dragons was a merger/partnership between Ebbw Vale and Newport but when Ebbw Vale withdrew and left Newport as the only part of the ‘merger’, the WRU supplied two people to sit on the board of directors because they could not allow the Dragons to be essentially standing alone by only having Newport RFC on its board. I doubt they would have taken a dividend then though. Not sure how it works now either. As I’ve posted previously David Buttress is at pains to point out that the WRU are not really involved in the day to day running. Perhaps they are just there in an advisory capacity? But I’m not really up on business stuff (can’t you tell!) so don’t know how it works elsewhere with directors and shareholders, etc.

The Oracle wrote:I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one.

Didn't the WRU bail Scarlets out a few years back ? I would call that a massive helping hand. But your correct, nobody else got anything on the back of that deal.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one.

Didn't the WRU bail Scarlets out a few years back ? I would call that a massive helping hand. But your correct, nobody else got anything on the back of that deal.

Yeah, that’s what I mean. Perhaps it was before the RSA. Since the RSA each region needs to be treated, and helped, equally. Still not sure of the implications of the WRU sitting on the board of the Dragons in terms of dividends, etc.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I don’t think anything like this has happened in the past (one region being given a helping hand so then all of them getting something) but I’m happy to be corrected on that one.

Didn't the WRU bail Scarlets out a few years back ? I would call that a massive helping hand. But your correct, nobody else got anything on the back of that deal.

Yeah, that’s what I mean. Perhaps it was before the RSA. Since the RSA each region needs to be treated, and helped, equally. Still not sure of the implications of the WRU sitting on the board of the Dragons in terms of dividends, etc.

The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

LordDowlais wrote:

The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

That's because it's jealousy. It is easier for them to think of it as a "bail out", when in actual fact, the WRU bought Stradey Park. There was no money given to Llanelli RFC in exchange for nothing. That's a bail out.

It's quite remarkable to see how many people are quite happy to say Llanelli were bailed out by the WRU, yet they never mention, for instance, Neath getting half a million quid from the WRU in the late 90s.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

That's because it's jealousy. It is easier for them to think of it as a "bail out", when in actual fact, the WRU bought Stradey Park. There was no money given to Llanelli RFC in exchange for nothing. That's a bail out.

It's quite remarkable to see how many people are quite happy to say Llanelli were bailed out by the WRU, yet they never mention, for instance, Neath getting half a million quid from the WRU in the late 90s.

Nope. The WRU loaned Scarlets money. It was a bailout. It's not jealousy either, just double standards from Welsh supporters as usual. The Warriors were taken over by the WRU and were folded. The WRU helped Scarlets from going under. The Warriors fans were then told to get behind their new region, by everyone, double standards, that's why there is resentment.

You might need to read this:-

https://westwalesnewsreview.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/scarlets-update-another-big-loan/

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The bailing out of Scarlets by the WRU left a very bitter taste in the mouths of a few thousand fans up my way, and still does. But that is all history now.

That's because it's jealousy. It is easier for them to think of it as a "bail out", when in actual fact, the WRU bought Stradey Park. There was no money given to Llanelli RFC in exchange for nothing. That's a bail out.

It's quite remarkable to see how many people are quite happy to say Llanelli were bailed out by the WRU, yet they never mention, for instance, Neath getting half a million quid from the WRU in the late 90s.

Nope. The WRU loaned Scarlets money. It was a bailout. It's not jealousy either, just double standards from Welsh supporters as usual. The Warriors were taken over by the WRU and were folded. The WRU helped Scarlets from going under. The Warriors fans were then told to get behind their new region, by everyone, double standards, that's why there is resentment.

You might need to read this:-

https://westwalesnewsreview.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/scarlets-update-another-big-loan/

That seems to be a blog by someone with an axe to grind.

The WRU bought Stradey Park. Llanelli RFC gave up their entire home - and then bought it back when they could afford it. Anyone calling that a bail out is just misinformed or jealous.

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:From the other thread:

marty2086 wrote:Top 14 Budgets for last year

1.  ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2.  Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3.  Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4.  Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5.  Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6.  RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7.  Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8.  Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9.   Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10.  Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11.  Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12.  CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13.  US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14.  SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget. The above T14 figures show a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position, far short of the 100% proportional relationship, those calling for a salary cap infer.

Perhaps those looking for their sides to be more competitive should try to understand what really makes teams successful rather than think it is down to throwing money at players?

It looks like you don't understand that there's a salary cap in France so "budget" is irrelevant to that, other than the spend can't be higher than 52% of the budget.

Agen aren't allowed to spend more than € 6.4 million yet those who can afford to will spend up to the € 11.3 million salary cap, and in Stade's case they have finished below them. This implies that the French salary cap has little bearing on success.