EPCR Glasgow Warriors v Saracens Sunday 14th October

by **BigGee** Mon 08 Oct 2018, 11:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Glasgow Warriors v Saracens
Scotstoun Stadium
Glasgow

Sunday 14th October
KO 15.15

Live on BT Sports

Well it does not really get any harder for Glasgow than this, an opening fixture against the two time Euro champs and probably the co-favourites to win this year, who have been in pretty awesome form this year and who gave Glasgow a bit of a lesson on our one and only quarter fibal appearance a couple of years ago!

Still after taking a very deep breath and realising what we are up against you do realise that there is always hope.

If you are going to play them, best play them first up and at home when there may be a little bit of euro rust and an awareness that they under performed (by their own standards last year).

Having said that, if Glasgow are under the impression that Sarries may not turn up, they are probably in for a very long afternoon. This is a game they are going to have to win and not just expect Sarries to lose.

Glasgow can cut any team apart when they string together their attack, but to beat Sarries, probably the best defensive team in Europe, they are going to have to put together an 80 minute effort that we have not really seen for a couple of years from this team. It has been there in patches, usually against better teams but one half just won't do it this time, it needs to be for the whole game and that is both going to be tough and somewhat out of character from what we have witnessed so far this season.

Injuries to Hoggy and Zander Fagerson apart we go into the same in reasonable shape. We have won our last two games and unlike last year when we started off our campaign with a long away trip to Exeter on the back of a South African trip (and consequently looked knackered) DR has been able to rest key players ahead of the game, so no excuses on that front this time around. Glasgow will also be clear underdogs and in truth there is not much expectation on us to win the game, this could also potentially play into our favour. WE also do have a few of our flair players coming into a rich vein of form, which is promising.

Whatever way it pans out, it should be a great sunday afternoon at Scotstoun. Here is my stab at the team:

Kibble
Brown
Rae
Gray
Harley
Wilson
Fagerson M
Gibbins
Horne
Hastings
Seymour
Dunbar
Jones H
DTH
Jackson

Allen
Turner
Nicol
Cummings
Ashe
Price
Horne
Niko

by **BigGee** Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:00 pm

Brendan wrote:All Glasgow need is 19-20 points from their 4 games. Not sure if Blues will be so accomadating.

18 will often get you through, but that is 4 wins and 2 bonus points.

Blues clearly have not read the script casting them as whipping boys and seem to be a good team for getting themselves fired up for big games. I am not expecting anything other than a very hard game next weekend and we will need to bring the same level of intensity as this week. Blues are a bit like Glasgow were a few years back, very clever back line and a good backrow, can score tries from everywhere but maybe a bit more vulnerable to a team who can really put the squeeze on them. It should be a great game and I am particularly looking forward to it as I am going!

It is probably time to do a match thread for that one.

by **BigGee** Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm

https://www.606v2.com/t68061-blues-v-glasgow-warriors-sunday-21st-october#3742371

by jimbopip Mon 15 Oct 2018, 1:47 pm

First things first;

Sarries clap

The whole point was to win the match and you did that. There are no points for available for aesthetic value, just four for winning and that's what you got them. Well done.

Glasgow. picard

Unlucky? Or just poor game management?

I had said,
8 10 12

Three battles which will go a long way to deciding the war.

My predictions;

Dunbar is the form player

Hastings, could become a very special player.

Fagerson, fearless and talented.

3-0 Glasgow.

Well, now the dust has settled

Dunbar never really looked like making inroads into the Sarries defence which would have created space for those outside him. After his early departure Furra Linee did well but was never really going to make the line breaks needed.

Hastings, we can easily forget how inexperienced he is he could become a great 10. He just fell short yesterday, but much more talented than Farrell, who is very, very good at doing whatever it takes to win.

Fagerson, seriously Shocked

had an absolutely titanic game. Like Hastings he will have learned so much from the experience.

Sarries have Lyon at Allianz, then a double header against the Blues. They should have the group won by the time we travel to Allianz. Our Euro season will come down to 80 minutes in Cardiff.

We will play a lot worse and win a lot of games. But, if we had played a little smarter we could have got something out of yesterday.

I shall refrain from commenting on the ref. picard

by TJ Mon 15 Oct 2018, 1:55 pm

After the third penalty when the offense was central just before halftime they should have taken that to end the half. Already tried twice and not got in.

by LordDowlais Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:18 pm

I see Itoje is getting a slamming for his behaviour in this game. I did not see it, but is any of it justified ?

Some people are even saying he should have been sent off for his trolling on the pitch, which I think is a bit drastic.

by BamBam Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:27 pm

Bad game for injuries, Mako , Billy and Isiekwe all hurt and Billy is out for 12 weeks

by **RDW** Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:28 pm

Basically Glasgow scored a try having not heard the ref's whistle and were celebrating wildly. Itoje then joined in the celebration making a joke of it.

I'm kind of on the fence about it - it is fairly shi**y behaviour and not really in line with the spirit of the game, but the game was full of niggle so it's not like he was the only perpetrator in the antics. His was certainly the most public though!

by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:34 pm

He gave back what Glasgow were dishing out to be fair.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:37 pm

Personally I think Itoje's attitude stinks. You can celebrate an opponent's mistake without rubbing his face in it, but that's what he seems to do at every opportunity. You can be competitive without being a d!ck.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:41 pm

And if you're going to be patting players heads pushing faces into the floor pushing players around expect people like Itoje to let you know when you're celebrating nothing

by LordDowlais Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:47 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Basically Glasgow scored a try having not heard the ref's whistle and were celebrating wildly. Itoje then joined in the celebration making a joke of it.

I'm kind of on the fence about it - it is fairly shi**y behaviour and not really in line with the spirit of the game, but the game was full of niggle so it's not like he was the only perpetrator in the antics. His was certainly the most public though!

Did he really do this ?

WOW.

Back in the old days he would have been given a few clips I reckon.

Anyway, looks like Glasgow were giving as good as they were getting. I also see Nigel Owens penalised somebody for their unsportsman like behaviour in the game he was reffing. Perhaps the ref should have done the same here as well.

by lostinwales Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:10 pm

So in summary Welsh posters who don't like Itoje thinks he should have been penalised for being mouthy in a game against a Scottish team.

In reality if the ref thought it was a problem a warning would have been the best way to start, sanctions if things didn't improve. Being an England player alone is not yet an offense on the rugby pitch.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:32 pm

His nationality is neither here nor there. If you think that's what it's about, I can't help you.

by Eejit Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:38 pm

Forget Itoje, Saracens were horrible, nasty cynical barstewards who turned the game into a slugfest.

For the record, I'm not having a go. It's not a criticism but a massive compliment. Champions are made of grinding out results sometimes and I wish Glasgow could be an ounce as streetwise as Sarries are. After all these years playing "the right brand of rugby" and Glasgow are still as naive as they were 31st May 2014 when they lost the Pro12 final in Dublin to Leinster, and they went on to win the whole thing a year later. What is shows is that on their day the Warriors can beat anybody but they are still massively fragile and lightyears behind Leinster & Saracens.

They knew how to beat us and they did so. They may be limping home, but they do so with four points when we've got none. Now Glasgow's European season hinges on beating a really good Blues side in Cardiff next week. Not quite ideal.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:49 pm

None so blind.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:52 pm

The player in question was Itoje, FFS.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 15 Oct 2018, 8:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Basically Glasgow scored a try having not heard the ref's whistle and were celebrating wildly. Itoje then joined in the celebration making a joke of it.

I'm kind of on the fence about it - it is fairly shi**y behaviour and not really in line with the spirit of the game, but the game was full of niggle so it's not like he was the only perpetrator in the antics. His was certainly the most public though!

Did he really do this ?

WOW.

Back in the old days he would have been given a few clips I reckon.

Anyway, looks like Glasgow were giving as good as they were getting. I also see Nigel Owens penalised somebody for their unsportsman like behaviour in the game he was reffing. Perhaps the ref should have done the same here as well.

The ref did at least once maybe twice I can't remember if we went through with it the second time, definitely a lecture. It was Glasgow on the receiving end. Glasgow brought the niggle into the game and Sarries stepped up and gave it them back. I presume Glasgow thought they'd knock Sarries out if their rhythm but Sarries seemed to thrive in it whilst Glasgow looked to be the ones struggling for continuity.

Glasgow were just dim. Gobbing off and cashing fights in front of the ref did them absolutely no favours. Sarries were far more savvy they found a Glasgow pack itching for a fight and took delight in physically dominating them even when they didn't need too.

If anything it made the game more attritional and nothing like what Glasgow should have hoped for. So much pace in that team, they looked more dangerous in the second half when they started to attack more and fight less.

Ref did a good job of stopping it spilling over.

by EST Tue 16 Oct 2018, 1:53 pm

Lozowski cited for two incidents, the clear out of Brown beyond the ruck and another high-tackle on Rhubarb.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 16 Oct 2018, 4:19 pm

Danny Care said he wasn't surprised at all by Itoje's antics. He says it's great when he's on your side, but a pain in the backside in opposition.

Personally, I dislike Itoje's constant clapping/baiting, as I do when anyone does it, but didn't mind that particular incident.

I haven't seen it back, so maybe my perception is wrong, but it seemed like Glasgow played on for a long time after the whistle had blown. You sometimes get fights for the ball when a penalty has been awarded, and a player or team is slow to give it up (whether deliberately or in error). Another player might have piled into the Glasgow players to get the ball. Itoje's mocking seems very mild by comparison,

by EST Tue 16 Oct 2018, 5:03 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Danny Care said he wasn't surprised at all by Itoje's antics. He says it's great when he's on your side, but a pain in the backside in opposition.

Personally, I dislike Itoje's constant clapping/baiting, as I do when anyone does it, but didn't mind that particular incident.

I haven't seen it back, so maybe my perception is wrong, but it seemed like Glasgow played on for a long time after the whistle had blown. You sometimes get fights for the ball when a penalty has been awarded, and a player or team is slow to give it up (whether deliberately or in error). Another player might have piled into the Glasgow players to get the ball. Itoje's mocking seems very mild by comparison,

I don't actually care about the Itoje winding up incident, especially when you support a team that has Ryan Wilson in its ranks - its all just posturing.

I'm much more annoyed at the fact that a try was incorrectly given and that the Lozowski clear out wasn't punished, both of which had a material impact.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Oct 2018, 5:23 pm

I'd be surprised if any ban was handed out for the clear out. Penalty for me but Glasgow weren't penalised for similar clear outs. Very relaxed view in general.

by reallybored Tue 16 Oct 2018, 8:05 pm

I thought there was a Rugby World directive to cut down on players taunting opposition or did I just imagine that?

The Lozowski clear-out was very dangerous, don't remember the referee even looking at it again but instead penalised Dunbar.

I was also under the impression that if a player retaliates in a scuffle, the original penalty gets reversed.

by 123456789. Tue 16 Oct 2018, 9:24 pm

I think rugby has and (as far as I can remember) always has had a certain contradictory element with regard to the opposition. On the one hand, there's the respect element, the whole snobbish "we're not playing football" outlook and then there's the "it's not illegal if the ref doesn't penalise it", win at all costs attitude. Richie McCaw, for example, was an expert at the dark arts and cultivated the image of a gentleman captain at the same time. Martin Johnson and Neil Back are legends of the game and were also dirty buggers. Nathan Hines too.
Maro Itoje's antics wound me up no end when I saw them and left a sour taste in my mouth. But it did cast my mind back to an incident years back in a school game when an arrogant wee sod in the year below left my school to join a "better rugby school" (our biggest rivals) having not made our first team in his first year of senior rugby. Next season we drew them in the cup, and scored a try in the last minute to beat them, he was one of the players next to the try. Did we make sure he was caught up in the middle of our celebrations? Of course we did, and it was brilliant. In other words when you're at the receiving end it's horrendous and when you're the one dishing it out it's brilliant.
I don't like what Itoje did and that's because I'm a Glasgow fan, the other way round I'd think it hilarious. I actually think Jonny Gray is a better player than Maro Itoje but needs to develop that edge that all the best second rows have. If you're Maro Itoje you've played at Murrayfield the year before, been absolutely humiliated by the Scotland team and jeered mercilessly by the Scotland fans. Do you lord it over the players who beat you on that day when you get the chance? Absolutely. I imagine a lot of the England and Scotland players don't particularly like each other. Rugby is meant to be a partisan, passionate and emotional game and it is all the better for that.

by TJ Tue 16 Oct 2018, 11:07 pm

Well said numbers.

I think Glasgow decided they were not going to be pushed around and bullied. Two Sarries players got broken noses ;-) there was no quarter asked or given in the forwards. I don't think I have ever seen a game like it for that

As for Itoje? He had Ryan Wilson in is face all day. He did well not to get himself sent off. I thought the two packs pretty evenly matched overall. Jonny Gray the standout again.

by lostinwales Wed 17 Oct 2018, 1:12 am

TJ wrote:Well said numbers.

I think Glasgow decided they were not going to be pushed around and bullied. Two Sarries players got broken noses ;-) there was no quarter asked or given in the forwards. I don't think I have ever seen a game like it for that

As for Itoje? He had Ryan Wilson in is face all day. He did well not to get himself sent off. I thought the two packs pretty evenly matched overall. Jonny Gray the standout again.

Glasgow lost and all you have to celebrate is that a couple of the opposition got broken bones. Well done.

by TJ Wed 17 Oct 2018, 6:03 am

FFS - why so bitter and nasty. clearly not celebrating but observing what happened.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 17 Oct 2018, 6:12 am

The slightly weird smiley used, along with the general tone of your post, could make it appear you are happy that two opponents got broken noses. So while that would not have been my first assumption, it is not clear that you are not celebrating.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Oct 2018, 7:22 am

Ha. Itoje embarrassed by the scotland team. Don't remember that myself!

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:02 pm

The whole England team were embarrassed by Scotland to be fair....

by reallybored Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:30 pm

Statement from European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR):

"The Saracens centre, Alex Lozowski, has been suspended for two weeks following an independent disciplinary hearing in London arising from his club's Heineken Champions Cup round one match against Glasgow Warriors at Scotstoun,"

"Lozowski was cited for two acts of foul play, for dangerously entering a ruck and making contact with the Glasgow Warriors hooker, Fraser Brown, and for allegedly tackling the Glasgow Warriors full-back, Ruaridh Jackson, dangerously.

"In respect of the citing complaint concerning the incident at the ruck, the committee upheld the complaint as it determined that Lozowski had committed an act of foul play that warranted a red card.

"It found that the offence was at the low end of World Rugby's sanctions and two weeks was selected as the appropriate entry point.

"Despite the fact that there were some mitigating factors, the committee decided that in the absence of a guilty plea it could not reduce the sanction and a two-week suspension was imposed."

Lozowski pleaded not guilty to both charges, and had help from Glasgow star Jackson - who gave evidence by phone before the Saracens centre was cleared of a dangerous tackle on the Scotland back.

"In respect of the citing complaint concerning the alleged dangerous tackle, the committee heard additional evidence by phone from Ruaridh Jackson and subsequently decided to dismiss the complaint on the basis that Lozowski had not committed an act of foul play," the EPCR statement continued.

by lostinwales Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:32 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:The whole England team were embarrassed by Scotland to be fair....

They were indeed, and it was Scotland's turn the year before. Makes the games interesting Smile

by **George Carlin** Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Itoje embarrassed by the scotland team. Don't remember that myself!

by jimbopip Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:49 pm

Top marks to Ruaridh Jackson for giving evidence on Lozowski's behalf. It would have been easy to be spiteful, good to see players acting in the spirit of the game.

However a not guilty plea to taking out Brown!!! Really? I'd give him two weeks for taking the pis. Also, and not limited to this incident, surely dangerous play worthy of a red card should warrant more than two weeks? I think both club and player have got a result here.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Oct 2018, 12:53 pm

Oh you were actually talking about scotland winning by 12. Thought it was something specific to Itoje. What do you call a 40 point win then just so I know?

by **George Carlin** Wed 17 Oct 2018, 2:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh you were actually talking about scotland winning by 12. Thought it was something specific to Itoje. What do you call a 40 point win then just so I know?

Very rare. Cry

by funnyExiledScot Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

Quite a few lengthy pieces of analysis on here. For the sake of brevity:

Pressure on = Glasgow choke.

by jimbopip Wed 17 Oct 2018, 4:53 pm

Ah FES, festering away as ever. vomit

I think you miss the Schizoid One more than anyone else on here. You are like twin gargoyles on opposite gables of a gothic heap. Each seeing his own corner of the coup and fating fragrantly in the general direction of his twin.

Glasgow will outperform the Luvvies in the Pro14 again this season. Probably in the Heino too.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 17 Oct 2018, 9:08 pm

jimbopip wrote:Top marks to Ruaridh Jackson for giving evidence on Lozowski's behalf. It would have been easy to be spiteful, good to see players acting in the spirit of the game.

However a not guilty plea to taking out Brown!!! Really? I'd give him two weeks for taking the pis. Also, and not limited to this incident, surely dangerous play worthy of a red card should warrant more than two weeks? I think both club and player have got a result here.

You appear to be under the misapprehension that the citing process is both logical and consistent. It is neither. In fact when is it ever consistent?

by Cyril Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:13 am

Indeed. I recall Cian Healy getting a 2 or 3 week ban for a blatant stamp on Dan Cole’s ankle when 10 weeks plus should have been the correct ruling. Healy followed that up with further foul play in the next few seconds. It’s a lottery. Well, it’s a lottery in Dublin.

by TJ Thu 18 Oct 2018, 3:04 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The slightly weird smiley used, along with the general tone of your post, could make it appear you are happy that two opponents got broken noses. So while that would not have been my first assumption, it is not clear that you are not celebrating.

Ok - just incase you are still reading or interested I'll explain a little further.

Above my post people had been criticising Itoje for acting the hardman and so on. I tried to point out two things: That he had Ryan Wilson - no stranger to a scrap himself-in his face taunting him all day and that he got a broken nose for his trouble anyway. Wink

( was what I typed) In the context of the match I didn't think Itoje behaviour was any worse than anyone else

In previous meetings the Glasgow pack has been bullied a little. I think this time round they had decided they had a point to prove and were not going to back down an inch. The battle between the two packs was immense and very even. I thought it a great match in a blood and thunder sort of way

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 18 Oct 2018, 3:28 pm

Cyril wrote:Indeed. I recall Cian Healy getting a 2 or 3 week ban for a blatant stamp on Dan Cole’s ankle when 10 weeks plus should have been the correct ruling. Healy followed that up with further foul play in the next few seconds. It’s a lottery. Well, it’s a lottery in Dublin.

Isn't that a short story by Borges?

Tumbleweed

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