Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Part 2

geoff999rugby wrote:True but then look at the money Bristol have

Everyone has money now in England, that's maybe part of the problem. Think there are something like 15 points between everyone outside the top two

clivemcl wrote:In other news, Sam Carter (Brumbies lock - 14 AUs caps) linked with a move to Ulster.

And since SR season hasn't started is this perhaps going to be an immediate signing I wonder??

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/brumbies-brace-for-twin-tower-blow-as-sam-carter-weighs-up-irish-move-20190125-p50tl2.html

Could be a great signing but if we sign him and Faddes that could mean no NIQ LH, not that it needs to be NIQ but limits the options

Can't see Carter being a signing for this season, the article says end of the year but I take it they mean season though probably means Nagles not sticking around

so to summarise our LH will either:
Be IQ
Be a Project
Faddes 3 appearance for ABs don't could under capture
or
Coetzee is not staying

That last one worries me, if we lose Coetzee I think the team will suffer as we go back to the issue we had before in that we lack big ball carriers. He may not be the line bursting carrier we signed he still gets yards and ties in tacklers, with Hendersons availability being limited next season we'll be lacking in that department

Regards tonight's game with ngale at 6 that's 4 of our back 5 good lineout options. Is Jones a decent option as well? Not seen too much of him

There have definitely been talks about him saying and by all accounts positive on both sides so fingers cross
What I don't believe is we would fully load ourselves with NIE players without having a LH lined up
Bryn stated it would be our most urgent need under the new regime

Just been told Sam Carter and Christian Lealiifano are good mates

Could explain a lot

geoff999rugby wrote:Just been told Sam Carter and Christian Lealiifano are good mates

Could explain a lot

Both are captains at the Brumbies aren't they? Given everything that was going on at the club when he was here, it says a lot about the club and the man that he seems to be sending his mates to play here

Re Coetzee, I know Jonathan Bradley was speaking on the podcast earlier this week about Coetzee talks not being entirely positive. Seemed to indicate it might come down to where he stands with the Springboks and their selection policy

You may well have hit the nail on the end - he would want to play in the World Cup

He's only 2 off the caps quota. If he was the best option available to them, they wouldn't select a lesser player for the sake of 2 caps. They may try to suggest it's a sticking point to try and encourage him to move back, but I feel if he stood his ground, he would find he would get selected. No?

He can earn considerably more her no doubt. He has to consider his income and family and future.

De Klerk and Koch currently have 21 and 12 caps, so there are exceptions and that was one of the points being made by Bradley. Rassie is kind of making up the rules as he goes

Didn't Vermuelen get decent money to go home plus can go play in Japan, less games in Super Rugby plus a less physical one in Japan could mean a slightly longer career and more money long term plus Springboks match fees

And of course it would be in Marcells favour with Ulster contract negotiations if the story was that he was 'risking' giving up World Cup hopes. Rassie might have a word with Marcell, but he probably wouldn't want Ulster knowing even if he were given any assurances in terms of international selection.

First time I've been looking to watch the game on Eir Sports rather than Premier Sports. Where exactly do I go to do that?
It's not a channel on my BT tv that I can see. Is it another web browser type thing like Premier Sports?

Eir sports is a channel on Sky but I'd be fairly sure you won't be able to watch it because Premier Sports hold the rights in UK

Ok so Pro14 website says EirSports / Free Sports (black and yellow like Premier sports branding). Whats freesports? Is it on a channel with BT?

Either way it's due on premier Sports 2 at 10pm which I can probably live with.

Free sports is a seperate channel, seems to be partnered with premier sports or is owned by them, it is free to air i think.

Says it's BT Vision channel 64

Ah ha!

https://www.freesports.tv/

Says BT ch 64, but it's missing on mine!

Ah well, 10pm it is then!

rodders wrote:From what I gather there was one utility back to be announced in January, he suggested likely Irish but must have got that wrong.

Anyway looks like a very handy signing.

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Jackson has signed for LI.

Hi rodders - can you check your PMs?

You have to say well played to Benetton, but honestly... whatever about giving lads experience and building... it’s ridiculous for a club like Ulster to be so weakened by the loss of 5/6 players compared to the surprisingly strong performance from a Benetton team who were missing 11 players. Benetton were robbed.

Balacoune, and Lowry still look green and naive, Stewart wasn’t great, Lyttle shows he still has some x-factor but what about the young forwards? Not overly promising to my eye.

IRFU will tell me Jones and Dalton will become great because they got that experience and we weren’t allowed to sign cover. And apparently it’s ‘not on’ that Ross is blocking young guys. Not sure we are spoilt for choice.

Young players should have a better competition in which to gain experience and probsenior clubs should have strong squads with senior depth.

We are paper thin while we rebuild. Commentator last night pointed out we've had six players leave/retire in this first half of the season alone.

5/6 players ??

Clive we were missing
McCall, O'Hagan, Best, Henderson, Coetzee, Reidy, Murphy, Cooney, Marshall, Gilroy, Stockdale, Kernohan, Owens, Busby -13 players I know off.
9 of those would have improved the team.

This is going to happen as players develop - some will make, some will not
What is ridiculous is the mismanagement of the previous 5 years that has put us in this position.
Its going to take time to get back to be able to compete week in week out.

Don't make the mistake of judging youngsters on such games
I repeat what I said before Stockdale was poor when he started - look at him now.
Jones will be a decent player and regardless of what you think of Dalton to judge him on those few minutes is very unfair
Stewart was better than Shanahan

I was referring to weakness resulting from six nations absence. I’m sure Benetton also had their standard injuries outside of their 11 internationals missing.

My point is that a top level pro club should have good enough squads for every pro game. The youngsters should have somewhere else that gets them up to pro standard other than in must win league games. Must win league games should have better match day squads than that.

Yea, it might do well for these youngsters down the line. But what about here and now? We were very lucky to have stolen a few points from that game. Very.

The club and/or IRFU’s message that we need to build is correct, but they don’t want to address the real issue of the fact our youngsters don’t get a good enough standard to prove themselves before they are thrown into must win league games because we’ve nobody better to pick.

Is it unreasonable for a fan to want his club to have a better (bigger) squad so we can play s higher standard for crucial games?

I left off EOS, Hall and Addison - make that 16
By my reckoning we started with 4 first choice players and finish with one and he was injured for most of the 2nd half

You last post is fine but I repeat blame the mismanagement of the previous 5 years - blame Logan, Kiss, Anscombe etc
We are where we are. Petrie and McFarland do not have magic wands it will take time.
What we absolutely must do is give them time, what we absolutely musn't do is lose patience and hope another changing of
the guard will work - it wont, in fact it could be a nail in the coffin of Ulster rugby.
Sounds dramatic but I believe we must given these guys time - they are going in the right direction.
As Bryn says this is a 3 year project.

The one point I would pick up on is
The club and/or IRFU’s message that we need to build is correct, but they don’t want to address the real issue of the fact our youngsters don’t get a good enough standard to prove themselves before they are thrown into must win league games because we’ve nobody better to pick.


We are aware of the dysfunctional set up of clubs and schools here in Ulster.
The quality of the A games available has improved this year - that will yield a benefit in the long term.
The net is cast wider now in terms of schools we recruit from - that will also yield benefits in the long term.
If you can find a way of stopping our leading schools preventing promising youngsters getting quality coaching because of their beloved schools cup Ulster rugby would be delighted to hear from you (I hate that holy grail called the schools cup - it is a noose round our neck)

You talk of better (bigger) squads.
That can only come from IQ players, due to our restriction on NIQ players.
We will only get that by improvements in our Academy - Campbell and Anderson are on the job.
Again there is no quick fix here

geoff999rugby wrote:
By my reckoning we started with 4 first choice players and finish with one and he was injured for most of the 2nd half

And we had one in Burns that is injured and probably shouldn't be have been picked

geoff999rugby wrote:You last post is fine but I repeat blame the mismanagement of the previous 5 years - blame Logan, Kiss, Anscombe etc

At least with Anscombe he'd have been happy with the win last night

Yea we got hit by a lot of retirees for sure, but we also ‘cleared out’ a lot of ‘dead wood’ who were IQ but supposedly blocking our youngsters from getting the opportunity to get thrown in before they can swim in must win games.

Maybe in a few years we will see the benefit of a stronger, bigger IQ squad, but us the sacrifice of potentially not qualifying for Europe really and acceptable cost?

Could they have done more to move our club players around etc before they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water and go all-in with the starting XV plus academy strategy?

I’d love to see the list to count it up just how many left Ulster in the last 12months.

Even if you disagree, anyone fancy helping me list the departures for the craic?

We have lost this year:
Deysel, Henry, Browne, Ah You, VdeMerwe and Speight

Last year we lost:
Black, Bowe, Cairns, Diack, Herron, Marshall, Olding, Patterson, Payne, Piatau, Simpson, Trimble
, Lealiifano

Those in Red were retirees

Olding and Jackson were taken out of our hands
Piatau was offered a salary we could not come close to matching
Black was force out by Logan because Black made it clear he thought Logan was useless
Speight, Lealiifano were part timers
Ah You, VdeMerwe, Cairns, Herron, Patterson, Simpson brought absolutely nothing to the club
That leaves Deysel and Diack - both on inflated wages for a poor return

On that basis I do no see who you would expect us to retain?

clivemcl wrote:
Could they have done more to move our club players around etc before they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water and go all-in with the starting XV plus academy strategy?

Which club players do you believe are out there that could benefit Ulster rugby but are not currently part of the squad?

geoff999rugby wrote:We have lost this year:
Deysel, Henry, Browne, Ah You, VdeMerwe and Speight

Last year we lost:
Black, Bowe, Cairns, Diack, Herron, Marshall, Olding, Patterson, Payne, Piatau, Simpson, Trimble
, Lealiifano

Those in Red were retirees

Olding and Jackson were taken out of our hands
Piatau was offered a salary we could not come close to matching
Black was force out by Logan because Black made it clear he thought Logan was useless
Speight, Lealiifano were part timers
Ah You, VdeMerwe, Cairns, Herron, Patterson, Simpson brought absolutely nothing to the club
That leaves Deysel and Diack - both on inflated wages for a poor return

On that basis I do no see who you would expect us to retain?

Looks like McFarland (encouraged by Nucifora) decided very early that the deadwood needed to go and a new team culture was needed.


He's done a great job so far and although the squad is weak beyond the first team, he can now start adding strength to the overall squad.


Tbh I think Munster should be doing similar. We've plenty of deadwood in our squad that's just not needed and only blocking academy players.

The team's luck is still holding as they didn't deserve a point from that game. I agree with Geoff that it will take years before Ulster are a rugby force again. Some of the right things are happening with the Academy and coaching ticket and that needs to be persevered with.

However the coaches have to take responsibility for that poor result, because of their selection. As predicted Ulster would still have qualified for the European quarters if they had taken nothing from Welford Road, so key players like Coetzee and Reidy could have been kept fresh for last night's game. That's not hindsight just pragmatism. Why wasn't the case made to the IRFU to release Cooney for such an important league game? Playing an obviously injured Burns for the full game, was a result of not playing a different flyhalf the week before but why compound that by not starting a fit 10 against Benetton? Nelson would have been better in defence or start Lowry at 10 and have Kernoghan in the back three?
Turning down the second kickable penalty was madness at such a crucial point in the match. This game was crucial to get ahead of Treviso, and despite deserving to lose, with their luck holding, a few key players would have made the difference.

The Irish players were in Portugal, so not like they could just shoot up the road from Carton House to get to the game. With the injuries at 9 too it's probably a case of protecting Cooney as he's Murrays backup for next week

Lowry not getting a game at 10 is really becoming baffling to me, the only thing I can think of is they are trying to protect him as we all know any team would send their big guys constantly down the 10 channel. It's not like he can't tackle though, he's putting bigger and more experienced guys to shame with some of the tackles hes making

Cooney was never going to be released with Marmion and McGrath out
Burns stayed on because McCloskey, Hume, Balacoune all were injured during the game - we literally ran out of backs
From 10 to 15 we had 4 injured players and, as per normal, only 2 players to bring back on.
Kernohan was injured and not available

Going into last weekend we were not certain to qualify for the QFs
In that situation telling Coetzee he was being rested would had been interesting.
We were simply unlucky with both him and Reidy getting injured.

Our last 5 years should have involved slowly bringing through players one or 2 at a time. Mixing them along with the first team in some minor matches getting them first team experience and seeing if the players were good enough.
What actually happened is we flogged more experienced players every week ignoring the youth. Players like Roger Wilson who brought nothing to Ulster in the final couple of seasons.
Now we are where we are because of that and a lot of turnover in the last year or so for various reasons.
We have to take the pain in the short term because of a lack of long term planning and the want of our previous coaches and leadership to have everything now. That sort of mentality ruined the province and left us where we are now.
I agree with Geoff we now need to stick it out and build for the future, give Dan and co a chance to build that depth.

I appreciate the list of players Geoff. When did Stevenson and Briwne leave? I understand you agree with most of the reasons some were offloaded.

I’m not so much arguing against the reasons, just looking at the black and white numbers.

How many did we shift on versus how many did we bring in.

I admit I’m maybe not quite as experienced in appreciating the skill set in the forwards, but I just can’t see anything in Jones, Rea, Falton, Montgomery (yet) to be excited about. It’s different for the likes of Balacoune, Lowry and Lyttle who have shown some obvious skill.

Maybe I just need educated? But to my eyes our breakdown work was pretty awful yesterday.

In an ideal world, for me, we’d be playing Diack standard players last night, and the youngsters would be joining us when they are more ready having proved themselves in better competition elsewhere.

If our squad does improve like is the plan. Then that just means in 3/4 years our academy then will find it harder to get senior team opportunities. So... the academy players need a better standard of week in week out rugby. It just has to happen. If not right now, surely in a few years when our senior squad is bigger again with all the academy graduating and progressing.

geoff999rugby wrote:Cooney was never going to be released with Marmion and McGrath out
Burns stayed on because McCloskey, Hume, Balacoune all were injured during the game - we literally ran out of backs
From 10 to 15 we had 4 injured players and, as per normal, only 2 players to bring back on.
Kernohan was injured and not available

Going into last weekend we were not certain to qualify for the QFs
In that situation telling Coetzee he was being rested would had been interesting.
We were simply unlucky with both him and Reidy getting injured.

Burns took to the pitch with the same injury he had against Tigers - that was a bad decision when the side needed fit players to start.

Ulster have an outside chance in the Pro14 playoffs but practically none in the HEC, so the smart play would have been to prioritise Benetton over Tigers. As it is Ulster are likely to be in the Challenge Cup next year, so Dan will be able to expose all his Academy players to European rugby without any pressure and maybe that development path is just as good.

Yeah I would have started Lowry at 10 based on how burns looked last night. If we need to make the change so be it. At any rate there hasn’t been much harm done with the kings winning. We have three weeks to stew over that performance and I would say the coaches will be stewing over it. It seems we have a decent set up in that regard and I’d back them to get it right (along with hopefully a fitter squad) in three weeks

The Great Aukster wrote:
Ulster have an outside chance in the Pro14 playoffs but practically none in the HEC, so the smart play would have been to prioritise Benetton over Tigers. As it is Ulster are likely to be in the Challenge Cup next year, so Dan will be able to expose all his Academy players to European rugby without any pressure and maybe that development path is just as good.

£500,000 in the bank from getting a QF will pay for one top player and the best part of a second one.
I repeat telling the likes of Coetzee he isn't playing in the Tigers game would be a great way to piss him off and not sign a contract
We are likely to play in the Challenge Cup - really ?

4 teams covered by 2 points
Looking at the games they have against the other three and the games away to the better teams (Leinster, Munster, Glasgow) you come up with:

Benetton 3
Edinburgh 4
Ulster 2
Scarlets 2

From that I submit we have every chance

clivemcl wrote:
I admit I’m maybe not quite as experienced in appreciating the skill set in the forwards, but I just can’t see anything in Jones, Rea, Falton, Montgomery (yet) to be excited about. It’s different for the likes of Balacoune, Lowry and Lyttle who have shown some obvious skill.

Maybe I just need educated? But to my eyes our breakdown work was pretty awful yesterday.

Our breakdown work wasn't exactly top notch against Tigers, especially in the first half. With experience comes lessons, like learning to read a situation. They were playing against guys who are bigger and more experienced, when you have guys like Reidy, Murphy, Coetzee there they'll carry heavy loads in games with younger players around them they'll tackle more, carry more, shout more and it's maybe why Nagle was there but it was asking a lot of him

Good post - inspite of the walking wounded in the backs it was the lack of power in the forwards where we fell short

If you just listen to the young guys talk this season, nearly everyone to a man mentions at some point the amount they are picking up in games from senior pros, guys like O'Toole and O'Sullivan have mentioned Rory talking to them during scrums etc, Baloucoune, Lowry, Kernohan have done the same when they've said about Ludik, Speight, McCloskey and even Stockdale just talking to them throughout games it seems to be a reassuring presence too

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:  
Ulster have an outside chance in the Pro14 playoffs but practically none in the HEC, so the smart play would have been to prioritise Benetton over Tigers. As it is Ulster are likely to be in the Challenge Cup next year, so Dan will be able to expose all his Academy players to European rugby without any pressure and maybe that development path is just as good.

£500,000 in the bank from getting a QF will pay for one top player and the best part of a second one.
I repeat telling the likes of Coetzee he isn't playing in the Tigers game would be a great way to piss him off and not sign a contract
We are likely to play in the Challenge Cup - really ?

4 teams covered by 2 points
Looking at the games they have against the other three and the games away to the better teams (Leinster, Munster, Glasgow) you come up with:

Benetton 3
Edinburgh 4
Ulster 2
Scarlets 2

From that I submit we have every chance

I have no idea how much influence Coetzee has on his own selection. He doesn't come across as a 'toys out of the pram' type of guy but if that is the case, he won't be around anyway as McFarland apparently isn't too keen on prima donnas.
How much would Ulster lose by not making the playoffs or the Champions Cup next year? Will the £500k (that they had all but banked anyway) attract the sort of player Ulster need if the non-televised Challenge Cup is what's on offer?

The home and away profile has a lot to do with it - Ulster have Dragons away which is a very different challenge to having them at home like Benetton do, ditto Edinburgh.
Round 15: Ospreys Rugby v Ulster Rugby
Round 16: Ulster Rugby v Zebre Rugby
Round 17: Dragons v Ulster Rugby
Round 18: Ulster Rugby v Southern Kings
Round 19: Glasgow Warriors v Ulster Rugby
Round 20: Edinburgh Rugby v Ulster Rugby
Round 21: Ulster Rugby v Leinster Rugby

ROUND 15 BENETTON RUGBY v SCARLETS  
ROUND 16 BENETTON RUGBY v DRAGONS
ROUND 17 BENETTON RUGBY v EDINBURGH RUGBY  
ROUND 18 CONNACHT RUGBY v BENETTON RUGBY
ROUND 19 LEINSTER RUGBY v BENETTON RUGBY
ROUND 20 BENETTON RUGBY v MUNSTER RUGBY
ROUND 21 ZEBRE RUGBY CLUB v BENETTON RUGBY

Last Friday's game was a classic double points fixture in the League, Benetton have now no European distraction, and their team was missing more players than Ulster yet should have won in Belfast. Logic would dictate that Ulster won't catch them.

Coetzee is no prima donna, I was merely pointing out that the NIQs want to play in the big show piece games
Both teams have three weeks breaks and Ulster will be focusing on the Pro14 as much as Benetton for the next couple of months.
We were uniquely hit by losing all 3 first choice backs rowers and a significant set of injuries to backs.
Even with the players missing we can reach heights Treviso cannot.
Also remember fringe players like Murphy and Addision may well be released for one or more of the Osprey, Zebre, Dragons games

We do not have to catch all 3, if Benetton win at home to Scarlets and Edinburgh that is obviously defeats for them.
If they lose those key games then the only home games are Dragons and Munster.
Basically one easier game - I would not swap our run in for theirs

I believe you login is fundamentally flawed

marty2086 wrote:

clivemcl wrote:
I admit I’m maybe not quite as experienced in appreciating the skill set in the forwards, but I just can’t see anything in Jones, Rea, Falton, Montgomery (yet) to be excited about. It’s different for the likes of Balacoune, Lowry and Lyttle who have shown some obvious skill.

Maybe I just need educated? But to my eyes our breakdown work was pretty awful yesterday.

Our breakdown work wasn't exactly top notch against Tigers, especially in the first half. With experience comes lessons, like learning to read a situation. They were playing against guys who are bigger and more experienced, when you have guys like Reidy, Murphy, Coetzee there they'll carry heavy loads in games with younger players around them they'll tackle more, carry more, shout more and it's maybe why Nagle was there but it was asking a lot of him

To me the difference was the power of the Treviso outside backs, it is very difficult for the backrow, especially a makesgift one, if they are having to back peddle because the defence is missing tackles and losing ground in the contact.

Overall I thought it wasn't a bad showing, Coetzee was badly missed for a bit of go forward and would have made a difference.

Keeping Burns on the field was a bizarre decision and to me shows MacFarland is still learning as a head coach.

Who was going to come on for Burns ?
McCloskey had to go off - replaced by Cave
Then we had Burns, Hume, Balacoune all struggling and only one player to bring on, as an outside back.
Two of them had to stay. Hume was, mostly cramp, so the medical decision was made Balacoune was at a higher risk of serious injury than Burns

I do agree that, on balance starting with Lowry was probably a better call.
Could have has Cave 13, Hume on the wing and Ludik at 15

Burns shouldn't have been in the 23 plain and simple, he was injured against Racing and don't think he's kicked the ball in a game since, I said after the Racing game keeping him on hurt us then. We were pinned back in our 22 and Addison didn't seem to have the energy in his legs at time to make the clearing kicks. Against Treviso there were occasions when we should have been kicking for territory but again we lacked the options to do it

On the 10 situation where is Curtis? Haven't saw him since his concussion injury

Well the first issue was to go with no fly half on the bench.

The second was to bring Stewart on for Shanahan, rather than move Lowry to 10 and shuffle the back line.

Lowry was the 10 cover and Shanahan had to come off - he was in melt down

Curtis just sounds like they reckon he is not yet fully recovered .
All gone quiet, bit like Gilroy

Gilroy was interviewed during the match, sounds like he is close to returning.

I think it is just that with the GDPR rules now clubs can't say much when players are injured.

rodders wrote:
I think it is just that with the GDPR rules now clubs can't say much when players are injured.

Brexit will soon sort that