Brexit

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Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:He doesn't have to 'prove his innocence', that's not how the justice system in this country works.

But it's how the world intends it to work.................... it's probably called neo-socialism - ooh, sex-Y!.  
Anti establishment thought crimes to be punishable by no trial and a bullet down some cavernous prison complex dedicated to 're-education' of political dissidents.

Sex crimes as well? I don't see many people one here leaping to Weinstein's defence.

Yep. I would, until and unless he's convicted. Otherwise it's just hearsay and rumour.

So would Arron Banks

Meaning?

Careless?

"A NEW study has found 28,100 jobs have been lost in Welsh local authorities since 2010."

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17257381.thousands-of-council-jobs-lost-in-wales-because-of-cuts/

If anybody finds them, let me know, ta.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Two Labour mps that May was counting on Nandy and Snell have said they will be voting against the Govt...Which leaves only two declared Labour rebels..

I imagine the Govt will cut into these 80 odd Tories that say they are voting against but it still looks a big ask..

Maybe she can do a bit more dancing.....Us mere mortals like her dancing apparently..Perhaps chuck in a few "Magic Money Trees" too..

Why not? It's worked before. Did for Corby and his 'abolish fees!' nonsense.

How do you know it worked ????.......Need a breakdown of why people voted......Not everyone votes out of self interest.

I don't !!!..

I know the primary reason most people voted Labour was the NHS in 2017...By a big margin..

Eejits. Didn't they know that "there's no money left." or what?
Reckon we're out of deck chairs too (imo of course).

Plenty of speculation amongst journalists on what's likely to happen next.  Any thought's on Robert Peston's predictions?

According to senior Labour sources, Corbyn is close to agreeing that shortly (days) after the loss of the meaningful vote by May, he would formally make his party the champion of another referendum or people’s vote - on the basis that if there is no consensus in parliament on what comes next, the question has to go back to the people.

At this conjuncture, there might well be a clear parliamentary majority for such a referendum - with the choice between May’s deal (as the only negotiated deal) and remaining in the EU - if the Tory MPs who currently say they back a plebiscite stick to their guns.

Which is why, if May sees this coming (which presumably she must), she may try to head it off at the pass by saying shortly after losing the vote that she remains committed to Brexit and will in effect lead a government of national unity to capture the will of parliament on what kind of Brexit is sought by most MPs.

If Brexit it be for the PM, rather than referendum, that would probably be Norway-plus, if she wants to reflect the preference of parliament.

Chancellor Hammond and 5 other ministers want to join a permanent CU if this deal gets voted down..

She can't afford to lose him and them..

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You know Navy, interacting with you isn't fun any more at all. You just condescend and spout bitterness. What happened?

I woke up? I don't see a lot re. Brexit, Trump etc to be anything but bitter about. Condescension? Sometimes maybe. We're all guilty of it at times though aren't we? Even you.

Not every post, mate.

Pr4wn wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You know Navy, interacting with you isn't fun any more at all. You just condescend and spout bitterness. What happened?

I woke up? I don't see a lot re. Brexit, Trump etc to be anything but bitter about. Condescension? Sometimes maybe. We're all guilty of it at times though aren't we? Even you.

Not every post, mate.

Oh, I don't know. Just look at that one. Mate.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Moving on...

I see a debate has been arranged for Dec 9 between May and Corbyn..

Not sure what the point is ??.....Giving Corbyn a kicking isn't going to convince 360 mps a crap deal is a good one.

All gone very silly Billy..

Should be entertaining. A woman who supports our membership of the EU, but pretends she doesn't, versus a man who doesn't support our membership of the EU, but pretends he does.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You know Navy, interacting with you isn't fun any more at all. You just condescend and spout bitterness. What happened?

I woke up? I don't see a lot re. Brexit, Trump etc to be anything but bitter about. Condescension? Sometimes maybe. We're all guilty of it at times though aren't we? Even you.

Not every post, mate.

Oh, I don't know. Just look at that one. Mate.

Case in point

I'm done.

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Moving on...

I see a debate has been arranged for Dec 9 between May and Corbyn..

Not sure what the point is ??.....Giving Corbyn a kicking isn't going to convince 360 mps a crap deal is a good one.

All gone very silly Billy..

Should be entertaining. A woman who supports our membership of the EU, but pretends she doesn't, versus a man who doesn't support our membership of the EU, but pretends he does.

This. It's absolutely remarkable. Though I'm not sure that May actually has an opinion on the EU at all. She'll just back the horse that allows her to keep her job.

As for Corbyn, he's a joke. Just imagine how different the political landscape would be in the UK if Starmer was the Labour leader.

What are Keir Starmer's policies??

Or do you care...

Keir Starmer is the one UK politician who has looked competent on Brexit, and being the Brexit (shadow) minister is a v good use of his talents.  He's only been an MP since 2015 though and still comes across as a bit awkward and uncharasmatic on camera, so I think its way too premature to tout him as future leader just now. A future 'big beast' of cabinet in a Labour (led) government undoubtedly but not sure whether party leader would play to his best strengths.

Whos the debate for? Surely public debates are to help inform the public of whats on offer before we make a choice, but if we’re not getting a vote then why does it need to be on TV and not in the HoC?

The whole thing is bizarre.

Pr4wn wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:You know Navy, interacting with you isn't fun any more at all. You just condescend and spout bitterness. What happened?

I woke up? I don't see a lot re. Brexit, Trump etc to be anything but bitter about. Condescension? Sometimes maybe. We're all guilty of it at times though aren't we? Even you.

Not every post, mate.

Oh, I don't know. Just look at that one. Mate.

Case in point

I'm done.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What are Keir Starmer's policies??

Or do you care...

I'd be interested, as I think he's potentially a very competent politician in a morass of ordinariness. Nice I guess that he's not telling us 'his' policies and causing party ructions in the same way that all and sundry in the Tories are. Would make a change if someone actually decided not to brief media off the record on 'their' policies. I would imagine he would be a Labour leadership candidate in the not too distant future.

I see Cairnsy was getting himself between Theresa and the tv cameras yesterday. Loves a photo op he does.

You know May is in trouble when Newsnight get a vicar to say her deal is wonderful..

Then it turns out to be an actor that works regularly for the BBC..

Comres..

Do you support May's deal ??

Yes 26%
No 42%

GE intention..
Lab 39
Con 37..

Conhome...Conservative member poll..

Should May resign with immediate effect ??

Yes...50%..

Advocate General of the European Court of Justice has ruled that the UK has the right to unilaterally revoke A50 without needing prior permission from the EU27. Officially ruling should be given by Thursday.

Government found in contempt of Parliament and must now disclose the legal advice they received for Mays deal.

And Parliament just voted for the Grieve amendment, effectively killing off a no-deal, hard Brexit.

Carlsberg dont do tuesdays...

Samo wrote:And Parliament just voted for the Grieve amendment, effectively killing off a no-deal, hard Brexit.

It's non-binding.

So was the referendum, wasn't it?

JuliusHMarx wrote:So was the referendum, wasn't it?

Yes, but the result of the referendum has since been enshrined through various Acts of Parliament.

And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Won't extend article 50 if May wants to keep her job..

Quick review -
1. May's deal won't happen
2. No deal won't happen
3. Renegotiated deal won't happen
4. Extension to article 50 won't happen
5. Second referendum won't happen
6, Leave won't happen
7. Remain won't happen
8. General election won't happen

I think that pretty much cover things as they stand.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Quick review -
1. May's deal won't happen
2. No deal won't happen
3. Renegotiated deal won't happen
4. Extension to article 50 won't happen
5. Second referendum won't happen
6, Leave won't happen
7. Remain won't happen
8. General election won't happen

I think that pretty much cover things as they stand.

Nailed it .

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

We wont leave without a deal, now that that has to be voted on in Parliament. There are more supporters of remaining in parliament than leaving with No Deal.

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

Yes, thank goodness for the huge economic damage that would cause. Who cares about the falling living standards, all the people who will lose their jobs, the inevitable increase in crime and the loss of yet more public services?

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

It's this kind of psychotic chat that makes some Brexiters sound like fanatics.

Samo wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

We wont leave without a deal, now that that has to be voted on in Parliament. There are more supporters of remaining in parliament than leaving with No Deal.

No, it doesn't. You're misunderstanding the Parliamentary process. If a deal gets passed through Parliament, we'll leave with that. Otherwise, it's no deal, unless another act goes through Parliament (no sign of that happening).

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

Yes, thank goodness for the huge economic damage that would cause. Who cares about the falling living standards, all the people who will lose their jobs, the inevitable increase in crime and the loss of yet more public services?

Yeah, sure. Just like voting to leave cost us 500,000 jobs, and how never joining the Euro ruined the City of London.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

Yes, thank goodness for the huge economic damage that would cause. Who cares about the falling living standards, all the people who will lose their jobs, the inevitable increase in crime and the loss of yet more public services?

Yeah, sure. Just like voting to leave cost us 500,000 jobs, and how never joining the Euro ruined the City of London.

Gotta love Project Head-in-the-sand

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

We wont leave without a deal, now that that has to be voted on in Parliament. There are more supporters of remaining in parliament than leaving with No Deal.

No, it doesn't. You're misunderstanding the Parliamentary process. If a deal gets passed through Parliament, we'll leave with that. Otherwise, it's no deal, unless another act goes through Parliament (no sign of that happening).

Have you read the Grieve amendment?

He's only a kid, Jules. You have to make allowances for him being a dipsh1t.

The People of UK on the morning of Parliament cancelling A50: "Oh them lot just changed our opinion for us and coz they took a Parliamentary vote on it, we got nothing left to do except eat our cornfalkes and hurry off to work."

Hmmm. Freudian slip back there somewhere?

Samo wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:And the EU CoJ are going to announce that we can cancel A50 unilaterally, rendering anything since moot. The whole rotton house of cards is about to come crashing down.

Except the Tory Party don't want to cancel A50, and have never expressed an interest in doing so, so it's a moot point.

We're leaving on the 29th March 2019, probably without a deal. Thank goodness.

We wont leave without a deal, now that that has to be voted on in Parliament. There are more supporters of remaining in parliament than leaving with No Deal.

No, it doesn't. You're misunderstanding the Parliamentary process. If a deal gets passed through Parliament, we'll leave with that. Otherwise, it's no deal, unless another act goes through Parliament (no sign of that happening).

Have you read the Grieve amendment?

Yes. All it means is any motion put forward by the government can be amended. But motions are not legally binding. Only Acts of Parliament are.

We're still heading for a no-deal Brexit if Theresa's deal gets voted down next week.

No-one who has the national interests at heart would actually want a no-deal Brexit. The only people who would welcome it are those whose ego requires them to be on the 'winning' side, regardless of the price others will pay.

Disaster capitalists are all for it.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Disaster capitalists are all for it.

Self-interest over national interest.

What would the National interest be as distinct from self-interest?  Would it not be in the self-interest of most 'ordinary' people (ie the majority of any nation) to want to be a citizen of a Nation acting in its own Interest?

Where would the conflict of interest be?

Disaster capitalists (a minority) benefit from the misfortune of the majority (the Nation).

In terms of a No Deal Brexit, the national interest is clearly to avoid it. Others, with whatever self-interest they have, will welcome it.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Disaster capitalists (a minority) benefit from the misfortune of the majority (the Nation).

In terms of a No Deal Brexit, the national interest is clearly to avoid it. Others, with whatever self-interest they have, will welcome it.

That's a biased presumption.  No more than anyone could have predicted in advance the terms of a Brexit that had to be first negotiated (although virtually all remainers demanded the detail of an exit long before it could be logically given) - so too now, nobody can accurately predict that the UK National interest will be damaged or destroyed by a no-deal Brexit.  It would take 5, 6, 7, 10 years post no-deal Brexit for a true analysis of what such an exit HAS meant for the UK rather than a reliance on predictor values. Nobody can even accurately state where the EU will be or what it will be in 10 years.

I'd suggest it is in the self interest of all posters (pro or anti Brexit) to champion their preferred options.  The only thing that changes is that blueprint of self-interest.

OK, if we are talking 15 or more years down the road we have no way of knowing if Brexit is in the national interest or not. But anyone who has done even the most basic amount of research can conclude that economically a no deal Brexit will have a huge negative impact in the meantime. How huge is a bit of a finger in the air job, but pretty much huge/very huge/bloody enormously huge.

People can ignore that if they want, call it whatever 'Project' they want, or consider it a price worth paying if they want, but virtually all the evidence points to it, which is why very few people want it.

The only way No Deal happens now is if it goes to a second referendum.

Samo wrote:The only way No Deal happens now is if it goes to a second referendum.

Completely untrue.

I read something over the weekend that a number of people thought voting for no deal would mean things staying as they are now. That was pretty worrying.

Duty281 wrote:

Samo wrote:The only way No Deal happens now is if it goes to a second referendum.

Completely untrue.

You havent read anything thats already been said have you? Just bring your head out the sand now and then to say your piece then away back down again.

More Tories saying they will vote it down.

Might be humiliating but she will have to pull the Vote me thinks...

Have the vote, lose, and then walk away saying I did my best, now one of you lot can have a go. Then relax and watch as they make an even bigger balls up of it.