Brexit

"man that negotiated the Australia deal with the EU" - Who is this man? I only ask because Australia don't have a deal with the EU; they are, however, in the process of negotiating one.

Duty281 wrote:"man that negotiated the Australia deal with the EU" - Who is this man? I only ask because Australia don't have a deal with the EU; they are, however, in the process of negotiating one.

This man - the former Australian PM:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55272377

Exactly.

But Malcolm Turnbull said there was no trade deal between his country and the bloc, which meant "large barriers". Australia is negotiating a free trade deal with the EU, but does not currently have one.

Yes and also said: ''Australia has a deal with the EU on WTO terms and there are really some very large barriers to Australian trade with Europe, which we are seeking to address as we negotiate a free trade agreement with Europe

"But Australians would not regard our trade relationship with Europe as being a satisfactory one.

"There are very big barriers to Australian exports of agriculture products in particular and a lot of friction in the system in terms of services.."

I'd certainly not paint that as a good deal like BJ is intent on painting it.

Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

king_carlos wrote:Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

Yes you have to ask what will have to change to get a deal over the line.

king_carlos wrote:Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

They could have had decades to negotiate whatever after the referendum and it would always have ended up here, with days remaining and major obstacles still to overcome. Expect some scheisse compromise at the last minute that Johnson will claim as a victory. Then again, he'll claim it as some sort of Pyrrhic victory in the event of a no-deal outcome as well.

navyblueshorts wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

They could have had decades to negotiate whatever after the referendum and it would always have ended up here, with days remaining and major obstacles still to overcome. Expect some scheisse compromise at the last minute that Johnson will claim as a victory. Then again, he'll claim it as some sort of Pyrrhic victory in the event of a no-deal outcome as well.

You are right and it is hugely depressing and also dismissive of that part of our economy that depends on trade with Europe. Those guys need time to get ready for changes that are not finalised, but are occurring in a couple of weeks, with the Christmas shutdown in between.

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

They could have had decades to negotiate whatever after the referendum and it would always have ended up here, with days remaining and major obstacles still to overcome. Expect some scheisse compromise at the last minute that Johnson will claim as a victory. Then again, he'll claim it as some sort of Pyrrhic victory in the event of a no-deal outcome as well.

You are right and it is hugely depressing and also dismissive of that part of our economy that depends on trade with Europe. Those guys need time to get ready for changes that are not finalised, but are occurring in a couple of weeks, with the Christmas shutdown in between.

And they call themselves the party of business.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Does anyone else find the quote "go the extra mile" with resuming talks slightly frustrating?

Isn't that a bit like a surgeon claiming to go the extra mile by closing after open heart surgery instead of letting the patient wake up with a hole in his chest...

They could have had decades to negotiate whatever after the referendum and it would always have ended up here, with days remaining and major obstacles still to overcome. Expect some scheisse compromise at the last minute that Johnson will claim as a victory. Then again, he'll claim it as some sort of Pyrrhic victory in the event of a no-deal outcome as well.

You are right and it is hugely depressing and also dismissive of that part of our economy that depends on trade with Europe. Those guys need time to get ready for changes that are not finalised, but are occurring in a couple of weeks, with the Christmas shutdown in between.

And they call themselves the party of business.

Their own business, yes.

Initially I was against Brexit. But it's provided as much comedy as 'Only Fools and Horses' 1981-91 did in terms of comedy value. A 'No Deal' Brexit will be the icing on the cake

Personally, I think Only Fools and Horses managed to deliver great comedy up to, and including, the 1996 Christmas specials, though it had a slow-ish start and had plenty of weak episodes along the way ('Miami Twice' and 'A Royal Flush' in particular). The early 2000s episodes I pretend don't exist.

Nevertheless, when it was on top form it was scintillating stuff, and I have it at 3rd place on my 'All Time Great British Sitcoms' list.

Duty281 wrote:Personally, I think Only Fools and Horses managed to deliver great comedy up to, and including, the 1996 Christmas specials, though it had a slow-ish start and had plenty of weak episodes along the way ('Miami Twice' and 'A Royal Flush' in particular). The early 2000s episodes I pretend don't exist.

Nevertheless, when it was on top form it was scintillating stuff, and I have it at 3rd place on my 'All Time Great British Sitcoms' list.

Hi Duty - happy to bite. Which two top it for you?

Duty281 wrote:Personally, I think Only Fools and Horses managed to deliver great comedy up to, and including, the 1996 Christmas specials, though it had a slow-ish start and had plenty of weak episodes along the way ('Miami Twice' and 'A Royal Flush' in particular). The early 2000s episodes I pretend don't exist.

Nevertheless, when it was on top form it was scintillating stuff, and I have it at 3rd place on my 'All Time Great British Sitcoms' list.

I'd agree fully with you.

It was one of those times when fan pressure for more back-fired. That 'Gary' gag is painful.

guildfordbat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Personally, I think Only Fools and Horses managed to deliver great comedy up to, and including, the 1996 Christmas specials, though it had a slow-ish start and had plenty of weak episodes along the way ('Miami Twice' and 'A Royal Flush' in particular). The early 2000s episodes I pretend don't exist.

Nevertheless, when it was on top form it was scintillating stuff, and I have it at 3rd place on my 'All Time Great British Sitcoms' list.

Hi Duty - happy to bite. Which two top it for you?

Steptoe and Son in first place, Fawlty Towers in second.

Oofft discussing sitcoms sounds way more fun that Brexit. For me I almost classify sitcoms in in 20th and 21st century as different categories. There are some around the middle that can fall in both but TV changed so much that I sometimes find comparing brilliantly written shows from both eras similar to comparing sportsman across eras. If a sport changes so much that it's nearly unrecognisable then it's difficult to compare individuals across eras, similar for TV shows in my opinion given how much it has changed as a medium.

1. Blackadder
2. Fawlty Towers
3. The Young Ones
4. Mr Bean
5. Yes, Minister

I don't mean to irk anyone by not including Only Fools but I've simply not seen that much of it. I've seen many episodes almost by osmosis given it's popularity in my family and I really enjoy it. The cast is fantastic and it has many wonderful episodes but I've never watched it as much as the above shows, the top 4 of which in particular I watched almost incessantly growing up.

The older BBC work I get drawn to, as that list probably suggests, tends to come from writers who started out in sketch comedy. The way you can practically track British comedies evolution from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, into the Pythons, Not the Nine O'Clock News and into The Day Today through sketch style shows that originated onstage at comedy clubs and the fringe has always fascinated me.

Honourable mention to Dads Army in it's heyday as well.

1. The Office
2. The Thick of It
3. Fleabag
4. Detectorists
5. Black Books

Honourable mention to Spaced (which started in 1999 admittedly) and Outnumbdered.

Also worthy of mention is Alan Partridge as a character which started with BBC radio then BBC TV around the time that Armando Iannucci and Chris Morris had a Not The Nine O'Clock News esque group of talented writers and performers working around them. I love Partridge as a character but given how much he's moved around different mediums since breaking out with the Beeb in the nineties I almost struggle to pinpoint a single BBC series of his to put in top 5 sitcoms list.

For those who like black comedy Inside No. 9 is definitely worth giving a go. Like most anthology series it will have episodes that hit and miss for all viewers but there are some gems in amongst it.

I am more old school when it comes to my all-time favourite sitcoms. I'd probably list my favourites as:-

1. On the Buses
2. Porridge
3. Still Game
4. Only Fools and Horses
5. Steptoe and Son

The sardines episode of Inside No. 9 is brilliant as is the continental train episode, in general find it very up and down.

Will give an honourable mention to the mighty boosh which may not have aged well (albeit only 15 years old) but was at the time superb. As a then university student who was not unknown to dabble it was much watch tv.

The first series of the office is the finest comedy of this century but have always struggled with the second where it veers too far into cringe territory.

The Boosh was excellent in it's day, but like many sketch style shows hasn't aged particularly well as you say, Soul. I saw them live a couple of times and they were an absolute blast. One of the more modern reasons (along with Vic and Bob) why I gravitated towards Edinburgh so I could see as much comedy as possible at the fringe each year. To be honest I'd completely forgotten they were BBC 3 until looking it up after you mentioned them there. For some reason my brain had connected them with Channel 4.

The first couple of series 2 episodes when 'the Swindon lot' arrive are slightly jarring I find but given how jarring a merger between two branches of the same office can be I always felt that was the point. I think the latter half of the second series was still excellent though with the episode Charity culminating in Brent's redundancy and the series finale is stuffed with great moments in Tim finally chatting to Dawn, Gareth convinced he'll get Brent's job, Tim gets offered that top job and turns it down, Dawn moves away.

Had the Christmas Specials not done a sublime job of tying all the threads from both series together I'd probably agree that the first series is my favourite but those final two episodes finished all the arcs off so brilliantly. Probably the best ending to any sitcom I've seen. It just pips the final few minutes of Blackadder Goes Forth.

Spaced was the funniest thing I saw, but then the London bedsit thing was something I understood. (even down to the mad landlady. Mine had a beehive haircut...) Not sure that the years have done it much justice.

What I don't get with the lists so far is that no one has mentioned Father Ted.

lostinwales wrote:Spaced was the funniest thing I saw, but then the London bedsit thing was something I understood. (even down to the mad landlady. Mine had a beehive haircut...) Not sure that the years have done it much justice.

What I don't get with the lists so far is that no one has mentioned Father Ted.

Father Ted is similar to Only Fools for me in that my family like it and I've seen many episodes here and there which I've always enjoyed but it just never drew me in like other shows did, making me want to watch every episode of them.

If I were to watch Father Ted or Only Fools from series 1 episode 1 I'm pretty sure i'd enjoy both a lot but they've never drawn me in to do so. Just a personal taste thing rather than meaning anything disparaging about them as shows.

I think Spaced has simply been overshadowed by the Cornetto Trilogy that Wright, Pegg and Frost went on to make. Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz in particular are two of the best comedy films I've ever seen. As a bit of a film and comedy nerd it fills me with joy to see as technically skilled a director as Wright apply his skills for visual comedy to the sort of movies that usual get more slapdash treatment in filming and post production. So many comedies just have a script with a few gags, core cast members that audience have found funny before, then little else beyond that. The direction, use of music and editing in Shaun and Hot Fuzz make them standout as genuinely brilliant pieces of cinema that happen to be hilarious. I really hope that Wright and Pegg write and produce something else together soon.

Delighted to have played a part in derailing the Brexit talk.

A lot of really good British sit coms flagged above. I note Craig has Porridge in second spot. That was written by Dick Clement and Ian la Frenais. I like a lot of their work. Not only witty scripts but also twisty turning storylines. Even better than Porridge (my third choice) imo and in the runners up spot is their Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads with James Bolam in magnificent scene stealing form from start to finish. An honourable shout out as well to another programme they penned - Auf Wiedersehen, Pet; the first series being the best by some way. It effectively launched the careers of a host of leading players - Tim Spall, Kevin Whately, Tim Healy and Jimmy Nail.

The winner with no originality on my part is Fawlty Towers. Unlike Only Fools which went on for years with inevitable fluctuations in quality, there were only twelve episodes which helped to maintain its brilliance and importantly left us forever wanting more.

I'll maybe mention a few others another time here if the chat starts getting political again.

Surprised no-one's mentioned The Royle Family, unless I'm so eager to be surprised that I didn't read the other posts properly. Up there with The Office for me.

I was watching 'Blackadder' series 2 earlier in fact. That is by far the best one in my opinion. Miranda Richardson as Queenie and the whole medieval setting gives it that extra edge for me

My top ten sitcoms would be:

1) Steptoe and Son (The perfect mixture of drama and comedy; Harry H Corbett was masterful in this show, and such a shame he was typecast by it)
2) Fawlty Towers (The best outright comedy on the list; 12 stupendous episodes that stand up to repeat viewing; most sitcoms go past their sell-by-date...this one certainly didn't!)
3) Only Fools and Horses (Effectively a Thatcherite era Steptoe and Son and nearly as good; Jason and Lyndhurst's best role by far)
4) Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? (Agree with Guildford, James Bolam was immense in this)
5) Peep Show (Could quote this show for days, the writing was tremendous; the character of Super Hans is one of the best I've seen on TV)
6) Blackadder (Series 3 and 4 were outstanding and the ending was tragically memorable; Atkinson/Laurie/Robinson bounce off each other perfectly)
7) Keeping Up Appearances (Every episode was the same, but it was a damn good episode as Patricia Routledge was superb)
8) Vicar of Dibley (Quite underrated, I feel, I like the mix of sinister dark comedy with a twee middle-class setting; also had a good supporting cast including Roger Lloyd Pack)
9) The Thick of It (Started off strongly, became a parody of itself in the end)
10) Some Mothers do Ave Em (Michael Crawford carried this show even though he was only third choice; a richer supporting cast would have made this higher-ranked)

Honourable mentions to The Good Life, Yes Minister, Bottom, The Inbetweeners and One Foot in The Grave.

Haven't seen some of the ones mentioned on here - Still Game, Father Ted, The Royle Family to name a few. Wasn't overly struck on a few of the popular sitcoms that I have seen, like Dad's Army, The Office, Open All Hours or Porridge.

I was just thinking about BBC sitcoms specifically but Peep Show would be right up there in my favourite sitcoms. As you say Duty the writing is great and remarkably consistent over a long run. Another show with a very good final episode.

James Bolam is a wonderful actor. He was excellent in the long running New Tricks, always standing out in the cast along with Alun Armstrong. New Tricks was a very likable crime-drama in it's own right but suffered from being relied on to pump out content for viewing figures. They aired 107 hour long episodes, or to put it differently 101 more hours of TV than the entirety of Fawlty Towers.

Here's a fun little tidbit. It's long been rumoured that Marc Bolan derived his stage name from James Bolam's name after the two shared a flat during the Likely Lad's days.

This is an improvement on repetitive Brexit grumbling...

I am reluctant to rate some of these listed , as I've not seen enough episodes. But in any case , in my view it is Fawlty Towers first , daylight second...

Then I'd list Yes Minister , Steptoe & Son , and maybe The Good Life , The Young Ones ...in more recent times I loved Fleabag but it almost seems to belong to a slightly different category.

lostinwales wrote:Spaced was the funniest thing I saw, but then the London bedsit thing was something I understood. (even down to the mad landlady. Mine had a beehive haircut...) Not sure that the years have done it much justice.

What I don't get with the lists so far is that no one has mentioned Father Ted.

Spaced was also very good at the time, watched that recently and it didn't hit the spot any more. Due to lockdown i've binged almost every worthwhile british sitcom of the past 40 years.

Father Ted is on another level to most, consistently hilarious; the christmas special is one of my personal favourites. A group of priests getting lost in a lingerie department whilst a modest concept seems so far ahead of it's time.

Friday night Dinner is another that had very few bad episodes.

Soul Requiem wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Spaced was the funniest thing I saw, but then the London bedsit thing was something I understood. (even down to the mad landlady. Mine had a beehive haircut...) Not sure that the years have done it much justice.

What I don't get with the lists so far is that no one has mentioned Father Ted.

Spaced was also very good at the time, watched that recently and it didn't hit the spot any more. Due to lockdown i've binged almost every worthwhile british sitcom of the past 40 years.

Father Ted is on another level to most, consistently hilarious; the christmas special is one of my personal favourites. A group of priests getting lost in a lingerie department whilst a modest concept seems so far ahead of it's time.

Friday night Dinner is another that had very few bad episodes.

Friday Night Dinner is a good call, though the dad was a bit OTT.  Tamsin Greig's corsping was a highlight of the show for me.  Agree with your verdict on Spaced, was hilarious at the time but don't find it so anymore, strange how tastes change.

Another excellent show which I don't think has been mentioned is League of Gentlemen.

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Spaced was the funniest thing I saw, but then the London bedsit thing was something I understood. (even down to the mad landlady. Mine had a beehive haircut...) Not sure that the years have done it much justice.

What I don't get with the lists so far is that no one has mentioned Father Ted.

Father Ted is similar to Only Fools for me in that my family like it and I've seen many episodes here and there which I've always enjoyed but it just never drew me in like other shows did, making me want to watch every episode of them.

If I were to watch Father Ted or Only Fools from series 1 episode 1 I'm pretty sure i'd enjoy both a lot but they've never drawn me in to do so. Just a personal taste thing rather than meaning anything disparaging about them as shows.

I think Spaced has simply been overshadowed by the Cornetto Trilogy that Wright, Pegg and Frost went on to make. Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz in particular are two of the best comedy films I've ever seen. As a bit of a film and comedy nerd it fills me with joy to see as technically skilled a director as Wright apply his skills for visual comedy to the sort of movies that usual get more slapdash treatment in filming and post production. So many comedies just have a script with a few gags, core cast members that audience have found funny before, then little else beyond that. The direction, use of music and editing in Shaun and Hot Fuzz make them standout as genuinely brilliant pieces of cinema that happen to be hilarious. I really hope that Wright and Pegg write and produce something else together soon.

Much though the Cornetto trilogy owed to Pegg (he part wrote them) I think Edgar Wright is the key. I think the subsequent works of the main people bare this out. Paul is very good, but most of the other Pegg comedies seem a bit laboured, and Truth Seekers is OK and watchable but nothing special. The structure that Wright creates in his films is wonderful. I like Scott Pilgrim although I'd guess that is not a universal feeling, but Baby Driver is brilliant and a film I'd recommend to anyone.

I enjoyed Scott Pilgrim, Michael Cera was made for playing awkward teens and unlike a lot of comic adaptations had a properly comic book feel to it. The style is potentially jarring for a lot of people however. Looking forward to 'Last Night in Soho' which has the always enjoyable to watch Anya Taylor-Joy in it.

Duty and all with a liking for Steptoe - going back to the '50s and '60s (so in black and white), I would expect you to similarly enjoy Hancock's Half Hour penned by the same team of Galton & Simpson. The theme of thwarted ambition and resulting frustrations run through both programmes and are expertly portrayed by Harry H Corbett and Tony Hancock.

To swing this back on topic, imagine what a mess Jim Hacker and Sir Humphrey would have made of Brexit (and how much fun the writers would have had with the topic)

dummy_half wrote:To swing this back on topic, imagine what a mess Jim Hacker and Sir Humphrey would have made of Brexit (and how much fun the writers would have had with the topic)

I think we can unfortunately see very clearly what the writers would have done. It is hard to imagine that the current sh!tshow is not scripted because stuff like this isn't supposed to happen in real life.

Well, Thatcher always said that she was never sure whether Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister was meant to be sitcom or documentary.

dummy_half wrote:To swing this back on topic, imagine what a mess Jim Hacker and Sir Humphrey would have made of Brexit (and how much fun the writers would have had with the topic)

Probably no worse than Boris and Dominic I imagine.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I am more old school when it comes to my all-time favourite sitcoms. I'd probably list my favourites as:-

1. On the Buses
2. Porridge
3. Still Game
4. Only Fools and Horses
5. Steptoe and Son

I love Still Game. We've watched it from start to finish a number of times. So many good characters.

'The Office (UK)' series 1 is up there for me also. Series 2 was good but the comedy felt a bit more forced and didn't have that real life fly on the wall feel to it that an office tends to have

I see France and Italy have closed travel and transit from the UK to try and curtail this new strain of Covid spreading.

But I thought they couldnt control their borders because of the EU? Could someone help me get my head round this?

It's all going great, we've got the EU just where we want them Samo. I hear the German car manufacturers are on their way to save the day

Putting aside the utter stupidity of leaving the EU in the first place it is hard to imagine how we could manage the process worse.

I think we are in for a rough few weeks. The border closing thing is a more extreme version of what is potentially going to happen in January, and you would hope it would focus a few minds. I don't think Johnson will listen though. The government still seems to be driven by dogma and ideology. Still had enough of experts. Still dismissing reality as project fear.

We are not ready. Simple as that. We could ask for more time but they won't. Happy to drive the rest of the country over the cliff.

lostinwales wrote:Putting aside the utter stupidity of leaving the EU in the first place it is hard to imagine how we could manage the process worse.

I think we are in for a rough few weeks. The border closing thing is a more extreme version of what is potentially going to happen in January, and you would hope it would focus a few minds. I don't think Johnson will listen though. The government still seems to be driven by dogma and ideology. Still had enough of experts. Still dismissing reality as project fear.

We are not ready. Simple as that. We could ask for more time but they won't. Happy to drive the rest of the country over the cliff.

Tend to agree, but we may as well get on w/ it. We'll only find out by doing it and those that dogmatically think it's a good thing won't be told - they have to live it. Shame we all have to take part in the fever dream though.

NBS
The problem is that, as recent events in the US have shown, even living it isn't sufficient proof when you can just say 'Fake News' and your supporters believe you. Reality has taken on a curious half-existence.

It appears we've got a deal, four and a half years after leaving, but it still requires the approval of the U.K. Parliament (can be recalled as early as the 29th) and the European Council. Apparently the European Parliament won't have time to vote on it so their approval isn't required. Any one EU nation can also veto it - this nearly happened with a Canada/EU trade deal in 2016.

So a long way, still, to go before any celebrations can begin, but the news is promising.

Duty281 wrote:It appears we've got a deal, four and a half years after leaving, but it still requires the approval of the U.K. Parliament (can be recalled as early as the 29th) and the European Council. Apparently the European Parliament won't have time to vote on it so their approval isn't required. Any one EU nation can also veto it - this nearly happened with a Canada/EU trade deal in 2016.

So a long way, still, to go before any celebrations can begin, but the news is promising.

Yeah, lets celebrate a deal that leaves us worse off than we were 5 years ago. Score!

"Everything that the British public was promised during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year is delivered by this deal."

Can't they just once be honest with us?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:"Everything that the British public was promised during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year is delivered by this deal."

Can't they just once be honest with us?

Umm....no?

Particularly awaiting the extra £350 million per week (was it?) for the NHS...

Word from the French and Dutch media is that the UK capitulated on quite a lot of its demands. It'll be interesting to see how much and how much Johnson will try and spin it as a win.

Happiest I've seen the Prime Minister for ages. He probably knew 'no deal' would finish his premiership.  Early indications look good:

1) Restoration of supreme law-making power for the U.K.
2) Resumption of the U.K. being able to strike its own trade deals across the world.
3) An end to the role of the ECJ in U.K. affairs.
4) All potential migrants, EU and non-EU, will be judged by the same criteria; no preference given to potential EU migrants based on geography.
5) Zero tariffs and zero quotas = minimal economic disruption and continuation of trade.
6) A solution to the Northern Ireland issue? Will wait and see.

Still a way to go, but looks better than I anticipated in 2016.