Is New Zealand’s back row their Achilles heal.

First topic message reminder :

I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

That’s some list biltong. Imagine the squealing you’d hear if that many NH backrowers were plucked from their precious club competitions. It’s no wonder their clubs make financial losses year after year when their rich sugardaddies pay over the odds for foreigners to make their competitions mildly interesting.

ebop wrote:That’s some list biltong. Imagine the squealing you’d hear if that many NH backrowers were plucked from their precious club competitions. It’s no wonder their clubs make financial losses year after year when their rich sugardaddies pay over the odds for foreigners to make their competitions mildly interesting.

Yeah, it hurts mate.

Biltong wrote:

ebop wrote:That’s some list biltong. Imagine the squealing you’d hear if that many NH backrowers were plucked from their precious club competitions. It’s no wonder their clubs make financial losses year after year when their rich sugardaddies pay over the odds for foreigners to make their competitions mildly interesting.

Yeah, it hurts mate.

Yup, and the worst thing is it has nothing to do with rugby. It’s about the relative value of the $/£/€/R. That’s all. Nothing more. NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

ebop wrote:

Biltong wrote:

ebop wrote:That’s some list biltong. Imagine the squealing you’d hear if that many NH backrowers were plucked from their precious club competitions. It’s no wonder their clubs make financial losses year after year when their rich sugardaddies pay over the odds for foreigners to make their competitions mildly interesting.

Yeah, it hurts mate.

Yup, and the worst thing is it has nothing to do with rugby. It’s about the relative value of the $/£/€/R. That’s all. Nothing more. NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

Yup, a South Africa can save up 1 million pounds, come back to SA and be a multimillionaire.

Buy a mansion a sportscar and still have enough left to open two Kentucky Franchises.

Is this a support group or a rugby article?

I dont think its just the back row thats the problem for NZ. Dicipline is clearly still a problem for NZ. Some really silly penalties.

Based on the game on Saturday it looks like loose head prop may well be an issue too. Perhaps NZ depth isnt quite as great as we have been lead to believe?

Yes #porknuckle, the SH fans support their bretheren from the South aimilar to the NH supporters

Is Steve Hansen in denial?

Post match he claimed NZ had 4 clear chances to Irelands 2. Ireland crossed NZs line three times while Hansens NZ never looked close to getting to Irelands line.

Secondly Hansen famously claimed the NZ didnt have any dicipline issues. Are you still sure about that Steve?

Read fumbling the charge down to an open try line. Beauden passing to Kearney near the try line. POM plucking the ball out of thin air from Ben Smith’s advances and pulling a hammy in the process near the try line. That’s three opportunities missed that would be tries in most games for the ABs. Couldn’t think of a fourth off the top of my head.

So NZ would have scored except the Irish defense stopped them?

Listening to Ali Williams and Andrew Mehrtens this morning they give credit to Ireland, but are not concerned about the big picture.

Mehrtens especially suggested the AB's are trying to play to a different style that they are not accustomed to and they are learning from it, all in mind for the RWC in Japan.

Ali Williams are in similar mind.

I tend to agree with them, they are certainly learning the breakdown has fallen behind, and their tactical kicking needs to improve, whilst I think they are learning valuable lessons regarding how to deal with the rush defence.

Collapse2005 wrote:So NZ would have scored except the Irish defense stopped them?

Stop being so bloody sarcastic.

Spilled opportunities are just that, spilled opportunities.

The All Blacks have been uncharacteristically poor with their handling in the last two games. They have created chances and have had opportunities but their handling and composure has let them down. This is not something you normally associate with All Black side so fatigue after a long season might be a factor in this.

Yeah agree, very poor

Must be the rain..

Going fishing are we Guns? Good luck mate

Answers on the back of a postcard. Did NZ lose because

A. they were busy taking selfies
B. Retallick was missing again
C. Hansen is making them lose on purpose
D. because of imports
E. Irelands pack dominated them yet again
F. Conditions were too dry

Grand prize: a trip back to reality

Collapse2005 wrote:Answers on the back of a postcard. Did NZ lose because

A. they were busy taking selfies
B. Retallick was missing again
C. Hansen is making them lose on purpose
D. because of imports
E. Irelands pack dominated them yet again
F. Conditions were too dry

Grand prize: a trip back to reality

What did you do for all those years Ireland lost to NZ?

Dream about this post the day you managed a win?

ebop wrote:Going fishing are we Guns? Good luck mate

To be fair a lot of Kiwis blamed the performance v england on the rain.

The read chance was the only missed opportunity, Kearney and POM intervening at the last second is great defence. Same with holding up Stander or stealing the lineout on the 5, great NZ defence. Kearney knocking on when scoring is the same situation as read. So that's 1 all on missed "should have scored" opportunities, but stockdale was a score, so 2-1. Ireland still win.

there is a lot of hypocrisy on the forum. I am being told on other threads, that because the Pro14 is so good, that is the reason why Wales are 3rd in the world rankings and I should be thankful for the Pro14.

But when somebody mentions that the Super14 is being raped by clubs in the NH thus reducing the quality of the competition, when they point to that fact and tell us that is why the SH nations might be less dominant, they are told to stop bringing clubs competitions onto a debate on the international board.

Only on V2.

Yes the gap is closing, yes we are catching up. Do the SH fans like it ? I very much doubt it. But us in the NH must take into account what we do to hamstring the SH when we pillage them of all there best players, and there next best players.

Why do you think SA are exploring ways to get into NH competitions ?

I do not feel that Ireland did not deserve to win, far from it, I thought they were the better side on the day. My point is, I personally have always associated the All Blacks with great handling skills and composure which is why they finish off so many half chances/opportunities. In the games against England and Ireland, both those qualities were very short by their usual high standards.

the-goon wrote:The read chance was the only missed opportunity, Kearney and POM intervening at the last second is great defence. Same with holding up Stander or stealing the lineout on the 5, great NZ defence. Kearney knocking on when scoring is the same situation as read. So that's 1 all on missed "should have scored" opportunities, but stockdale was a score, so 2-1. Ireland still win.

I don't think anyone is or has been denying the Irish their win. In fact most people in my view was rather impressed by Ireland's intensity, physicality and smarts on the weekend.

It is however natural for supporters to analyse missed opportunities, it is often misinterpreted as whinging, which isn't the case most of the time.

the-goon wrote:The read chance was the only missed opportunity, Kearney and POM intervening at the last second is great defence. Same with holding up Stander or stealing the lineout on the 5, great NZ defence. Kearney knocking on when scoring is the same situation as read. So that's 1 all on missed "should have scored" opportunities, but stockdale was a score, so 2-1. Ireland still win.

Ireland did win. No one is arguing with that. Guns is just having his moment in the sun.  Nothing wrong with being a smug arseh*le when your team wins even though it’s a bit childish. Good on him I say.

I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that players are attracted to the nh due to economic factors. The same has happened to sh richer countries too. It does mean that the club comps have a better quality hence perhaps nz et al farm out some.younger players to learn. Possibly what nz has already spotted hence their agreement with harlequins. Will be interesting to see how that develops.

That and in the short term savea will get better with a run of games and read is unusually mediocre at present and will get better. The nz pack has had quite a lot of shuffling and that doesn't help.

eirebilly wrote:I do not feel that Ireland did not deserve to win, far from it, I thought they were the better side on the day. My point is, I personally have always associated the All Blacks with great handling skills and composure which is why they finish off so many half chances/opportunities. In the games against England and Ireland, both those qualities were very short by their usual high standards.

Yes it was an absolute deserved victory. The best I have ever seen Ireland play. And yes, New Zealand were not at their clinical best, saying that does not take away from Ireland's achievement at all.

The same applied when SA beat them, NZ made poor decisiobs that cost them the match, by that same token, we froze on the return match and conceded three tries in the final quarter to lose a match that was ours for the taking.

the-goon wrote:The read chance was the only missed opportunity, Kearney and POM intervening at the last second is great defence. Same with holding up Stander or stealing the lineout on the 5, great NZ defence. Kearney knocking on when scoring is the same situation as read. So that's 1 all on missed "should have scored" opportunities, but stockdale was a score, so 2-1. Ireland still win.

Exactly

LordDowlais wrote:there is a lot of hypocrisy on the forum. I am being told on other threads, that because the Pro14 is so good, that is the reason why Wales are 3rd in the world rankings and I should be thankful for the Pro14.

But when somebody mentions that the Super14 is being raped by clubs in the NH thus reducing the quality of the competition, when they point to that fact and tell us that is why the SH nations might be less dominant, they are told to stop bringing clubs competitions onto a debate on the international board.

Only on V2.

Yes the gap is closing, yes we are catching up. Do the SH fans like it ? I very much doubt it. But us in the NH must take into account what we do to hamstring the SH when we pillage them of all there best players, and there next best players.

Why do you think SA are exploring ways to get into NH competitions ?

SARU is trying to find a way to combat the exodus of players. And trying to find more revenue. Plus having a foot in both hemispheres should theoretically improve play. Currently it has not bourne any fruit yet, Cheetahs and Kings are bleeding players.

Sometimes countries or even clubs just have far too many resources that they cannot keep everyone happy or in situ.

I look at Leinster in Ireland and the amount of top quality players they are currently churning out and they simply cannot sustain them all so they are starting to get sent to other provinces to help fulfil their potential.

That could also be an attributing factor for the exodus of certain players from certain regions/countries.

I don't think it's hypocrisy to say if the nh is better then looking at ways to develop younger players through loans like harlequins is a way forward. Don't think using terms like r*** is particularly helpful either though!
To widen beyond nz to the rest of the sh particularly south africa then having more players involved in nh should help them improve no end.

eirebilly wrote:Sometimes countries or even clubs just have far too many resources that they cannot keep everyone happy or in situ.

I look at Leinster in Ireland and the amount of top quality players they are currently churning out and they simply cannot sustain them all so they are starting to get sent to other provinces to help fulfil their potential.

That could also be an attributing factor for the exodus of certain players from certain regions/countries.

Yes I get that billy, but at least then, the Leinster players/ex players are still playing in the same competition and not dropping the standards of the Pro14. When we are taking hundreds of players out of the Super14 competition, then the quality will inevitably drop, this then will show a drop in quality when they are picking players for international games.

LordDowlais wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Sometimes countries or even clubs just have far too many resources that they cannot keep everyone happy or in situ.

I look at Leinster in Ireland and the amount of top quality players they are currently churning out and they simply cannot sustain them all so they are starting to get sent to other provinces to help fulfil their potential.

That could also be an attributing factor for the exodus of certain players from certain regions/countries.

Yes I get that billy, but at least then, the Leinster players/ex players are still playing in the same competition and not dropping the standards of the Pro14. When we are taking hundreds of players out of the Super14 competition, then the quality will inevitably drop, this then will show a drop in quality when they are picking players for international games.

Exactly my point. There is inevitably a knock on effect.

I just think that is something that is often overlooked in these discussions LD. It may not always be the lure of big money, it can be just the lure of actually playing the game they love and reaching their own personal pinnacle that is the driving incentive for certain players to leave.

eirebilly wrote:I just think that is something that is often overlooked in these discussions LD. It may not always be the lure of big money, it can be just the lure of actually playing the game they love and reaching their own personal pinnacle that is the driving incentive for certain players to leave.

I would agree with you if it was South African players not getting contracts in SA, in this scenario it is our established, experienced and often internationally capped players that make up the majority of them, thus your theory only applies to a minority of them.

Does Super Rugby not play a big part in the problem with the breakdown. Both Kings and Cheetahs coaches said they were shocked at how much more physical Pro14 was compared to Super Rugby (which is saying alot from a SA team). The Pro14 is considered the weak league in Europe when it comes to power. While this may be a case of the new kid impressing his friends SR is based on quick hands and avoiding contact. We saw this year the Crusaders playing a much more NH style defence that was mean on trys and hard on the breakdown and few had any answer to it.

In the 2000s the NH gained massively from players coming up from the SH with Ireland putting Howlett and Elsom as the boys who changed Munster and Leinster. Back then Elsom was told when he went back to OZ that he was rubbish and would need to learn and improve before being pick for the National team.

Now in 2010s SH players have less impact on European Competitions and can look lost at time such as Savea who was poor but is worse now. Even DC while good was not miles ahead on the field. I am interested to see how Nonu looks in SR cause he has been fairly poor for Toulon.

NZRU must take some of the blame for how they run their player management. All the players know once you are dropped from the ABs you aren't getting back in. It's why I think the number of 30+ year old players in NZ SR who arent part of AB plans is so low compared to European players still at home in their 30s. All that knowledge is lost because in NZ you are a has been in the NH you still have alot to give.

ebop wrote:NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

I think the onus is on you to point to people who make that claim. I've never heard it.

eirebilly wrote:I just think that is something that is often overlooked in these discussions LD. It may not always be the lure of big money, it can be just the lure of actually playing the game they love and reaching their own personal pinnacle that is the driving incentive for certain players to leave.

Yes, and I am not knocking the individual reasons for why each player would move, best of luck to them I say, all I am saying is when we bring debates like this up, then we really should consider how the clubs/unions in the NH play their part in effecting the drop in quality in the SH competitions.

New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa are not some bottomless hole that has a constant supply of quality players, when we take all the good ones, and the next best good ones, it does effect the standard of rugby in both hemispheres, ying and yang.

Biltong wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I just think that is something that is often overlooked in these discussions LD. It may not always be the lure of big money, it can be just the lure of actually playing the game they love and reaching their own personal pinnacle that is the driving incentive for certain players to leave.

I would agree with you if it was South African players not getting contracts in SA, in this scenario it is our established, experienced and often internationally capped players that make up the majority of them, thus your theory only applies to a minority of them.

It may be a minority but it is very much present. I do believe that their are more factors than the almighty dollar involved in these cases. I think you all know, by now, my feelings on players going to other countries for representative opportunities. This has always been a pet hate of mine as I personally do not understand it.

Brendan wrote:Does Super Rugby not play a big part in the problem with the breakdown.  Both Kings and Cheetahs coaches said they were shocked at how much more physical Pro14 was compared to Super Rugby (which is saying alot from a SA team).  The Pro14 is considered the weak league in Europe when it comes to power.  While this may be a case of the new kid impressing his friends SR is based on quick hands and avoiding contact.  We saw this year the Crusaders playing a much more NH style defence that was mean on trys and hard on the breakdown and few had any answer to it.

In the 2000s the NH gained massively from players coming up from the SH with Ireland putting Howlett and Elsom as the boys who changed Munster and Leinster.  Back then Elsom was told when he went back to OZ that he was rubbish and would need to learn and improve before being pick for the National team.

Now in 2010s SH players have less impact on European Competitions and can look lost at time such as Savea who was poor but is worse now.  Even DC while good was not miles ahead on the field.  I am interested to see how Nonu looks in SR cause he has been fairly poor for Toulon.

NZRU must take some of the blame for how they run their player management.  All the players know once you are dropped from the ABs you aren't getting back in. It's why I think the number of 30+ year old players in NZ SR who arent part of AB plans is so low compared to European players still at home in their 30s.  All that knowledge is lost because in NZ you are a has been in the NH you still have alot to give.

Brendan, I think the reference of physicality relates firstly to the focus on set piece, technically more advanced, and the breakdown/tackle area.

For South Africa I am optimistic for a few reasons.  Their Union is taking active measures and I would expect them over the next 5-10 years to reduce the number of players overseas. SR value is tied to the rand. Pro14 and Europe is tied to the pound and euro so better money in terms of currency value. Rand has halved in value v euro over last 10 years.

1. They will have 8 professional (2019 or 2020) teams and two sets of income (Pro14 & SR) who will be fed players by a draft and will focus on having 400 professional rather than the 900 they have or something like that.  Halfing the numbers of professionals increases the wages for those left.
2. They will be added to the European cups (They are easier to get to than the Russian team.  If you can go to nearly China SA is easy.  This will increase revenue for all participants and give them more money. Lions CEO said SR can't compete if teams get entry to European cups.

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

I think the onus is on you to point to people who make that claim. I've never heard it.

You might have your head in the sand then RugbyFan. I’m talking about fans of teams that are riddled with SH players and coaches that were obviously bought and then thinking they’re the best thing since sliced bread. There’s plenty of them around that show no awareness.

Look ebop, you is just jealous that Joe Schmidt was born in Cork.  What can we do? It's just royal rugby genes we have here? .....  We've always been the best mostly, we just were shy about proving it.

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

I think the onus is on you to point to people who make that claim. I've never heard it.

You might have your head in the sand then RugbyFan. I’m talking about fans of teams that are riddled with SH players and coaches that were obviously bought and then thinking they’re the best thing since sliced bread. There’s plenty of them around that show no awareness.

That's not what you said, though ebop.

Your said "NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger"

I've never heard anyone make that claim.

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

I think the onus is on you to point to people who make that claim. I've never heard it.

You might have your head in the sand then RugbyFan. I’m talking about fans of teams that are riddled with SH players and coaches that were obviously bought and then thinking they’re the best thing since sliced bread. There’s plenty of them around that show no awareness.

That's not what you said, though ebop.

Your said "NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger"

I've never heard anyone make that claim.

It’s because you failed to read between the lines RugbyFan, no worries

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger is pathetic.

I think the onus is on you to point to people who make that claim. I've never heard it.

You might have your head in the sand then RugbyFan. I’m talking about fans of teams that are riddled with SH players and coaches that were obviously bought and then thinking they’re the best thing since sliced bread. There’s plenty of them around that show no awareness.

That's not what you said, though ebop.

Your said "NH folk that think they are superior just because their currency is stronger"

I've never heard anyone make that claim.

Europeans ARE though (many of them) up their own asses, Rugby Fan. Always have been. Ebop has a point.

We need a 'fuel to fire' emoticon just for Fly

You gotta post that Schmidt Boyzone clip again SecretFly, it’s wonderful. Do it.

I don’t agree that the European breakdown is superior because of all the SH players that have come in.

Because the European breakdown isn’t superior. Some countries are better at it than others.

Pot Hale wrote:I don’t agree that the European breakdown is superior because of all the SH players that have come in.  

Because the European breakdown isn’t superior.   Some countries are better at it than others.  

England's problems at the breakdown are well documented. Pro 14 teams tend to be better at it IMO.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I don’t agree that the European breakdown is superior because of all the SH players that have come in.  

Because the European breakdown isn’t superior.   Some countries are better at it than others.  

England's problems at the breakdown are well documented. Pro 14 teams tend to be better at it IMO.

Yep and it even varies in the PRO14.