EPCR Champions Cup Edinburgh V Newcastle

by **RDW** Mon 03 Dec 2018, 1:01 pm

Edinburgh Rugby v Newcastle Falcons

Friday 7 December 2018 19:45 (GMT) Champions Cup Round 3 Pool 5 BT Murrayfield Stadium Ref: Marius Mitrea (Italy) Assis Ref 1: Andrea Piardi (Italy) Assis Ref 2: Matteo Liperini (Italy) TMO: Stefano Penne (Italy)

I can't imagine many people thought at the start of the season that this would be the crunch game in the group, but that is very much the case - two wins for either team here will put them in the driving seat for the pool. One win each will be good enough to keep both teams' hopes alive going into the final round.

Newcastle are certainly coming into this on much better form. Edinburgh have basically lost all momentum from the first 2 rounds, hit badly by the international window where they have slumped to defeats against Zebre and the Dragons only winning 1 game in the last 4 since the first Euro rounds. Newcastle on the other hand have completely recovered from a terrible start to the season, and in the last 6 games since the first Euro rounds have won 4, drawn 1 and lost 1.

Newcastle are the form team but the big question is how seriously will they be taking this given they are still in trouble near the bottom of the table? I suspect they will be taking it seriously to see how they get on - if they lose the next two games they can concentrate on the league, if they win them then they stand a great chance of topping the group.

by **RDW** Mon 03 Dec 2018, 1:05 pm

This is a key game for Edinburgh to try and get some form back over a tough 4 games coming up. We'll have all our first choice players back so there's no excuses now - we need to be winning this.

Tactics wise I have concerns as Newcastle have shown in the first 2 euro games that they are an incredibly difficult team to break down. Given that Edinburgh's tactics are usually pretty uninspiring and involve one out passes and pick and goes this will play right into Newcastle's hands.

Selection wise there is a chance Matt Scott will be back and I really hope he is - he's a class above any of our other centres. I suspect we'll see something like:

1 Schoeman
2 McInally
3 Nel
4 Toolis
5 Gilchrist
6 Ritchie
7 Watson
8 Mata (he's had a rest now! boxing

)

9 Pyrgos Rolling Eyes

10 Hickey (his superior kicking game gives him the nod)
11 VDM
12 Dean
13 JJ (Scott to 12 if he's fit with Dean at 13)
14 Graham
15 Kinghorn

Subs - Dell, Ford, Berghan, CHH, Hamilton, Kennedy, VDW, Socino (although he's pish)

by tigertattie Tue 04 Dec 2018, 11:27 am

And Fowles can buuger off!

by bsando Tue 04 Dec 2018, 12:10 pm

Seems like a decent side to me. I would probably swap Fife or Brown to bench instead of Socino and probably start VDW over Hickey.

Shame to see Edinburgh dip over the international period but hopefully we can mount a comeback of sorts. Lot of tough fixtures incoming though..

Newcastle home and away will be a good couple of tests. Little bit of added spice with seeing Hardie lining up for Newcastle. He's looked pretty good so far for them from what I've seen and I'm sure he'll want to standout a bit as Townsend will surely have an eye on that game with so many Scottish internationals involved.

by **RDW** Tue 04 Dec 2018, 12:57 pm

If we have a winger on the bench there's no cover in the centres.

VDW made a big difference off the bench against Dragons but had a bit of a mare at Munster, missing several kicks to touch. Appreciate he had no forward platform but against Newcastle I think he'll go for Hickey for his better territorial game - VDW is a great impact option if we're needing a bit of spark (which we usually do!)

I've got a Christmas pub crawl on Friday so am going to miss this game. EPCR Champions Cup Edinburgh V Newcastle 3845856932

EPCR Champions Cup Edinburgh V Newcastle 3845856932

by Geordie Tue 04 Dec 2018, 4:28 pm

We've played a lot of the squad fringe players in the cup and they've done really well.

We finally have won two on the trot in the league so Ill be interested to see how Dean elects to go in this game.

One thing is for sure...When you have Wilson, Gary Graham, Hardie, Chick and Negusa its going to be one aggressive physical and fit back row!

by **RDW** Tue 04 Dec 2018, 4:31 pm

How has Hardie got on lately Geordie? I see he's started a few games in a row now. Going to be a huge battle with Ritchie-Watson-Mata!

by EWT Spoons Tue 04 Dec 2018, 4:45 pm

Hardie's not been registered for this comp so he won't be facing Edinburgh. Not sure if I'm happy about that or not. Would have been nice to see him take the field again, but he's pretty handy so glad he's not playing.

by **RDW** Tue 04 Dec 2018, 5:08 pm

.....not that Gary Graham is much of a step down!

by **BigGee** Tue 04 Dec 2018, 5:37 pm

It will be good to see GG playing against the Edinburgh back row, I bet Toonie will be watching very closely.

To some extent we know what Hardie can do, staying fit has been his problem over the past couple of seasons. If he manages that he will be in the Scotland mix for sure.

by Geordie Tue 04 Dec 2018, 8:22 pm

Hardie has played as Wilson has been with England and captain will Welch is long term injured.
He's played alright but Dean will get him fit and in form. He has a knack of doing that .

But I suspect for this gane we may see

6.Wilson
7 Graham
8 Nagusa/ Chick

Bench Burrows

So that back row battle will be an almighty one. Not huge individuals but aggressive and physical .

The rest. Well the two Scottish locks are playing great stuff at the moment and our front row is doing not bad though never a strength.

Backs...wingers are electric...and Williams at 12 is outstanding.

Will be a good gane I hope...but the one thing we seem to have rediscovered our knack of winning ugly and going for 80+mins.

by Brendan Tue 04 Dec 2018, 10:29 pm

Having had two big wins surely Newcastle will see this as a great chance to make a playoff.

Is there any niggle between the coaches. You would think Cockrill will want to lay down a maker for the English team. I figure Edinburgh by 5 but will need to be a bit adventurous. One out runners is meat and drink to Premership teams.

by tigertattie Wed 05 Dec 2018, 10:06 am

Spot on Brendan. Tatctics will decide this one. If we do the one out bashing up the middle all night then Newcastle will just soak this up and we'll struggle.

Traditionally Edinburgh have relied on their forwards to provide the backs with such a good platform that even thier limited backplay has a chance of producing scores. I'm not sure we'll be getting that great a platform against the Geordies so we'll need to be a bit inventive and do mad things like running angles and switching the point of attack!

Can Edinburgh do this though!

by **RDW** Wed 05 Dec 2018, 10:13 am

The returning internationals are going to have to find their feet fast in the Edinburgh system - thanks to the extra AI game against Wales we haven't been able to put out our first choice team since we pumped Toulon in mid-October. Indeed most of our starting pack won't have played a game for Edinburgh since the Toulon game.

by tigertattie Wed 05 Dec 2018, 10:50 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:The returning internationals are going to have to find their feet fast in the Edinburgh system - thanks to the extra AI game against Wales we haven't been able to put out our first choice team since we pumped Toulon in mid-October. Indeed most of our starting pack won't have played a game for Edinburgh since the Toulon game.

Thats actually not too much of a bad thing as we've been pretty rancid in that time so hopefully they'll not have rotted like the others!

If we don't win this game, I think it will be seaosn over for us to be honest!

by **RDW** Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:17 am

I don't think it will be season over - losing both against Glasgow will make us way off the pace in the league so that would be a big deal.

No one expected us to get anywhere in the group so it's a pleasant surprise that these two games with Newcastle now have meaning. They're incredibly hard to call - we're probably equally likely for Edinburgh to win both as for Newcastle to win both! I'm pretty relaxed about it - Champions Cup was very much a nice to have this season - our league form needs to drastically improve.

by tigertattie Wed 05 Dec 2018, 12:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think it will be season over - losing both against Glasgow will make us way off the pace in the league so that would be a big deal.

No one expected us to get anywhere in the group so it's a pleasant surprise that these two games with Newcastle now have meaning. They're incredibly hard to call - we're probably equally likely for Edinburgh to win both as for Newcastle to win both! I'm pretty relaxed about it - Champions Cup was very much a nice to have this season - our league form needs to drastically improve.

Oh don't get me wrong, the league is important and the euro comp is gravy, but I feel that if lose this game it will have an impact on moral/momentum heading into the game against the unwashed ones. If we're not up for the games against them, then we're really in trouble!

Don't tell jimbo, but Glasgow are a very good attacking side, and if we go at them all meh and sluggish, we'll get a humping and then our league position is going to be very very rocky.

by **BigGee** Wed 05 Dec 2018, 1:24 pm

tigertattie wrote:

Oh don't get me wrong, the league is important and the euro comp is gravy, but I feel that if lose this game it will have an impact on moral/momentum heading into the game against the unwashed ones. If we're not up for the games against them, then we're really in trouble!

Don't tell jimbo, but Glasgow are a very good attacking side, and if we go at them all meh and sluggish, we'll get a humping and then our league position is going to be very very rocky.

Hmm, if I am reading this correctly, this sounds like someone getting their excuses in early!

by EWT Spoons Thu 06 Dec 2018, 10:25 am

Yellow warning for wind and rain on Friday evening. I suspect this game isn't going to be a classic

by **BigGee** Thu 06 Dec 2018, 10:43 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Yellow warning for wind and rain on Friday evening. I suspect this game isn't going to be a classic

I don't think those weather conditions will bother the Falcons all that much, they are pretty used to them as well. You could do with a bit of that when you play Pelly at home!

by EWT Spoons Thu 06 Dec 2018, 10:56 am

Might not bother them, but I can't imagine either team will be throwing the ball about with free flowing rugby. I mean Edinburgh don't do that anyway, but are even less likely to tomorrow.

by EWT Spoons Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:06 pm

Edinburgh team's up

Edin Rugby wrote:Edinburgh Head Coach Richard Cockerill has welcomed back ten internationalists to his starting XV for tomorrow night’s pivotal Heineken Champions Cup encounter with Newcastle Falcons at BT Murrayfield (Friday 7 December, kick-off 7.45pm).

Scotland stars Blair Kinghorn, Darcy Graham, Henry Pyrgos, Stuart McInally, WP Nel, Ben Toolis, Grant Gilchrist, Jamie Ritchie and Hamish Watson all return to action following the Autumn Internationals, whilst No.8 Bill Mata also gets the nod after helping Fiji to a famous win over France two weeks ago.

As the capital side look to keep up their 100% home record this season so far, the team selection includes 13 changes from the side that faced Munster last weekend. South African duo Jaco van der Walt and Duhan van der Merwe – who grabbed a brace of tries at Irish Independent Park – are the only players to retain their positions in the starting line-up.

Ahead of the fixture, Cockerill, said: “We need to win. If you’re going to qualify out of the group, then you’re going to need to win three of the last four games – at least – to give yourself an opportunity.

“It’s been great to get everybody back in, for obvious reasons. They’re all fit and healthy, which is good news for the club.

“The lads who have been playing for Scotland should be confident. When we’ve got our combinations right we’re as good as any team, and I believe we can compete with any team in Europe on our day."

Kinghorn is named at fullback after starting on the wing in Scotland’s 14-9 win over Argentina two weeks ago whilst van der Merwe is selected on the flank alongside Graham – a try scorer in his last two games for the capital side.

A fresh centre pairing sees Chris Dean – an unused substitute in last weekend’s Guinness PRO14 loss to Munster - return to the starting XV alongside James Johnstone. Van der Walt keeps his place at stand-off and is partnered by 27-times capped Scotland international Pyrgos at scrum-half.

An all-action front-row sees captain McInally named at hooker alongside Pierre Schoeman – who makes his Heineken Champions Cup debut – and experienced tighthead, Nel. Gilchrist returns to partner Toolis in the second-row.

In the back-row, Mata – twice a try-scorer in his last run out against Scarlets – is selected at No.8 alongside returning Scotland back-row duo Ritchie and Watson.

Edinburgh team to face Newcastle Falcons at BT Murrayfield in the Heineken Champions Cup on Friday 7 December, kick-off 7.45pm – live on BT Sport

15. Blair Kinghorn (71)

14. Darcy Graham (11)

13. James Johnstone (28)

12. Chris Dean (74)

11. Duhan van der Merwe (27)

10. Jaco van der Walt (24)

9. Henry Pyrgos (10)

1. Pierre Schoeman (7)

2. Stuart McInally (127) CAPTAIN

3. WP Nel (122)

4. Ben Toolis (97)

5. Grant Gilchrist (127)

6. Jamie Ritchie (56)

7. Hamish Watson (88)

8. Bill Mata (45)

Replacements: 16. David Cherry (6); 17. Allan Dell (51); 18. Simon Berghan (56); 19. Callum Hunter-Hill (6); 20. Luke Hamilton (10); 21. Nathan Fowles (62); 22. Simon Hickey (10); 23. Juan Pablo Socino (8)

Unavailable due to injury: Fraser McKenzie; Lewis Carmichael; John Barclay; Magnus Bradbury; Luke Crosbie; Matt Scott; Mark Bennett; Damien Hoyland

View

by EWT Spoons Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:07 pm

fairly predictable team, Cockers certainly doesn't have Toonie's tombola when it comes to picking a side. Only slight surprise is that VDW starts ahead of Hickey, but Hickey has been toss so not a huge shock.

by nickj Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:25 pm

15. Alex Tait, 14. Tom Arscott, 13. Chris Harris, 12. Pedro Bettencourt, 11. Adam Radwan, 10. Brett Connon, 9. Tane Takulua, 1. Adam Brocklebank, 2. George McGuigan, 3. David Wilson, 4. Tex Cavubati , 5. Glen Young, 6. Ryan Burrows (c), 7. Gary Graham, 8. Callum Chick.
Replacements:
16. Santi Socino, 17. Trevor Davison, 18. Sami Mavinga, 19. Calum Green, 20. Simon Uzokwe, 21. Sam Stuart, 22. Toby Flood, 23. Johnny Williams,

by **RDW** Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:29 pm

If we're predicting a hurricane and monsoon I don't think VDW is the best choice over Hickey.

Still, strong team.

Looks like Newcastle don't have their strongest XV starting?

by Geordie Thu 06 Dec 2018, 2:18 pm

Deans just mentioned our injry list ...it's frightening.
Just a sample

Joel Hodgison broken leg
Sean Robinson broken arm last week
Will Welch long term ankle
Mark Wilson ear infection
Craig Mitchell inured
Jon Welsh long term injury last week
Tom penny acl
Kyle Cooper injured
Negussa leg injury last week
Micky young broken cheekbone
Will witty long term knee
Josh Matavesi long term ankle

Etc etc etc .

by **RDW** Thu 06 Dec 2018, 2:20 pm

What do you think of your team Geordie?

by Geordie Thu 06 Dec 2018, 2:20 pm

But this team is still good. It'll be drilled and many of those have been the ones who beat toulon etc.

Watch out for Radwan on the wing...the boy can motor!!

by EWT Spoons Fri 07 Dec 2018, 9:48 am

I know it's been mentioned here already, but Newcastle do really seem to be struggling for players. Here is some chat from the guardian about their TH issues

Guardian wrote:Prop crisis may force Newcastle to play Champions Cup tie with 14 men

Newcastle are facing the possibility of having to play the majority of Friday night’s European Champions Cup tie against Edinburgh with only 14 men, because of an injury crisis at tighthead prop.

They have named their squad to face Edinburgh with David Wilson picked to start at tighthead, despite fitness concerns over the former England international. Trevor Davison, who does have some experience of playing at tighthead, has been named on the bench but he, too, is an injury doubt. Newcastle said on Thursday that Jon Welsh, Craig Mitchell and Paul Mullen all suffered injuries in a 24-hour period this week.

If one of Wilson or Davison is fit to play but there is no tighthead cover on the bench, Newcastle would start with 15 men but would be reduced to 14 – and all subsequent scrums would be uncontested – if and when that player leaves the field, meaning if he were to pick up an early injury it would be disastrous.

Newcastle were on Thursday night trying to register another tighthead with the tournament organisers, European Professional Club Rugby, but if they are unsuccessful the club believe they could even have to take the unprecedented step of fielding a depleted team from the start at Murrayfield, with uncontested scrums taking place throughout.

As part of their team announcement Newcastle issued a statement in which their director of rugby, Dean Richards, said: “We are in dialogue with EPCR to try to resolve the issue and that communication will continue.”

It is believed EPCR is unlikely to grant Newcastle their request to register another tighthead, because the window to do so has closed. There is a procedure in place for exceptional circumstances to be heard but giving Newcastle the green light to select someone outside their 41-man European squad would require approval from all stakeholders and that is highly unlikely to happen. It would also set an unwanted precedent over player eligibility.

Regulations state each club must nominate a squad of 41 with a minimum of 10 capable of playing in the front row. They also state there must be at least six in a match-day squad and that “where uncontested scrums are ordered due to the departure of a front-row player and there is no suitable replacement, the player whose departure caused the uncontested scrums may not be replaced (ie the club will be required to play with 14 players).”

The stumbling block appears to be that, while EPCR rules also allow for clubs to nominate further front-rows, known as Emergency Front Row players, who can be registered on a match-by-match basis, Newcastle would have needed to provide details of that player to the tournament organisers by 20 September. EPCR also said on Thursday night there is no possibility of the match being postponed. Newcastle have won their first two Champions Cup ties in their first season back in the competition for 14 years. They followed a historic away win in Toulon with a dramatic victory over Montpellier and are top of Pool Five, two points above Edinburgh.

Compounding matters for Newcastle, their England back-row Mark Wilson has been ruled out with an ear infection, joining Kyle Cooper, Sean Robinson, Nemani Nagusa, Michael Young, Will Welch, Will Witty, Josh Matavesi and Joel Hodgson on the injury list. Toby Flood and Niki Goneva are also missing from the 23-man squad, while John Hardie was not registered as an additional player to face the club from which he was suspended and then released last season, having arrived at Kingston Park only in late October.

by tigertattie Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:03 am

Madness

I know you've got to be careful of opening up potential loopholes for registering players, but surely the blue ribbon club event in the NH can't have a match with uncontested scrums and a team of 14 men due to red tape?

Given the history of bloodgate, I can't help but think if there was a different coach involved, there'd be no problems getting another player registered to play in the comp!

by **RDW** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:07 am

I hope it isn't uncontested - we've got an all international class front row and international replacement props. It's our biggest weapon!

by EWT Spoons Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:10 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I hope it isn't uncontested - we've got an all international class front row and international replacement props. It's our biggest weapon!

Aye but Newcastle going down to 14 would probably help. Especially as I can imagine Hickey would come on and we'll be pinging the ball down field going for maul after maul. Without the bulk of a TH it seems like a sensible game plan.

by EWT Spoons Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:37 am

The yellow warning seems like a load of rubbish. Currently in Edinburgh the sun is out and there is barely a breath of wind. Unless things take a massive turn later today (highly possible) then it could be a cracking evening for some rugby.

by tigertattie Fri 07 Dec 2018, 11:02 am

I'd say theres a wee breeze blowing.

Knowing this place, I'd say we'll get a game in slightly blustery conditions with the odd 2 mins shower from time to time.

Or as we call it, weather!

If the Nookie broons do go down to 14 men (by losing a tighthead) then it's game over as Edinburgh will revert to one out passes and will be pinging the ball to the corners all night long. I'm sure Newcastle will valiently defend for the first 60 mins but with no prop cover, they'll give out after the hour.

Its actually a crying shame as no club except perhaps Saracens should deserve this.

What I really hope for is that they don't throw out the potenitally injured props and risk worsening their injuries.

by Welly Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:55 pm

Deano v Cockers.

100% backing cockers today, go on Edinburgh.

by Geordie Fri 07 Dec 2018, 3:06 pm

We've had the worst scrum in the league for seasons now...we use it simply as a means to restart, so we're used to powerhouse front rows trying to smash us.

That team we've put out is actually quite decent, with some very strong aggressive players, and should not be underestimated.
The likes of Glen Young at Lock for example has just bloomed this season as is playing some great stuff and the back row will take no prisoners...
If you give Radwan a sniff, he'll score...keep your eyes on that young lad.

by **RDW** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 3:07 pm

We know all about Radwan - he scored the amazing solo effort against us in the pre-season game. I'm sure he'll enjoy playing on the large Murrayfield pitch too.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 7:22 pm

Newcastle starting with only one prop on the bench and a LH starting on the opposite side.

Could be a hard day in the office up front

by tigertattie Fri 07 Dec 2018, 7:30 pm

Anyone have any non dodgy links for “live commentary” of this match?

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:03 pm

Well worked try from Watson

7-3 Edinburgh

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:04 pm

For once, tonight is a good night for box kicking and HP is doing it very well

by jimbopip Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:11 pm

tigertattie wrote:Anyone have any non dodgy links for “live commentary” of this match?

http://www.payforbtsportyoucheapskate.com/

As a wise man once said to me. laughing

by tigertattie Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:12 pm

jimbopip wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Anyone have any non dodgy links for “live commentary” of this match?

http://www.payforbtsportyoucheapskate.com/

As a wise man once said to me.

Where’s yer Christmas spirit jimbo?

by jimbopip Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:16 pm

tigertattie wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Anyone have any non dodgy links for “live commentary” of this match?

http://www.payforbtsportyoucheapskate.com/

As a wise man once said to me.

Where’s yer Christmas spirit jimbo?

drinking it as we speak. Ale

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:18 pm

Good try by Newcastle, made some space on the outside and Radwan not going to miss from that range

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:20 pm

Edinburgh scrum completely dominant, an easy 3 points from this penalty

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:21 pm

Ooch, VDW spoons it

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:23 pm

Another penalty and he gets it on the second go

10-10

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:33 pm

10-13 Newcastle half time

It has not exactly been a classic so far. Edinburgh very pedestrian and can hardly complain about being behind.

They are massively dominant in the set piece though, just not really doing much with their possession.

It is a winnable game though, if they can get their act together. I expect they are getting a good talking to from Cockers atm!

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:48 pm

Chris Dean over under the posts after more set piece dominance.

Much better start from Edinburgh

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