Scotland vs Italy 6 nations. Sat 2nd Feb

First topic message reminder :

Scotland Vs Italy

Location: BT Murrayfield

KO: 14.15

TV: BBC(I think)

Last time out:
Italy 27 - 29 Scotland

Head to Head
Played:  19
Sco wins: 12
Italy wins: 7

To be fair though, Hogg’s ‘actual’ try shouldn’t have been awarded. It balanced out.

Townsend saying it was Russell's best Scotland performance. He did put in a good shift and was amazingly self controlled in the mebrak stakes.

I actually think his best performance was the win in Australia.

Cyril wrote:To be fair though, Hogg’s ‘actual’ try shouldn’t have been awarded. It balanced out.

Looked like enough downwards pressure to me.

You do not need downward pressure - thats a commentators bit of nonsense.  If the ball is over the line all you have to do is touch it while it is touching the ground.  He did that just.  If you carry the ball over the line you have to have control of it but if its bouncing in the end goal area just to touch it while its touching the ground is enough

Not sure it's commentator's nonsense, fairly certain the law used to contain the phrase to describe a try. The issue of 'control' is one that is slightly confusing - I'm fairly certain it's irrelevant, but that's one you hear mentioned, even by referees at times. Probably worth looking up.

In any case, be thankful you didn't have the TMO from the England Wales game last year...

Whatever the rule terminology, it was a try!

Scotland the better side, but I feel that scoreline might paper over a couple of cracks. First try was beautifully finished, but I question if the ball would have been so easily won if "ball out" hadn't been called in English. Easily chalked up, but the second try was highly questionable, with both the last passes looking forward.

Scotland need to and will surely improve on that performance.

Mostly I'm a bit miffed that deliberating between the two I chose Seymour over Kinghorn for my fantasy sides.

In terms of the 1st Round I’d have us on a par with Ireland and Wales, ahead of France and Italy and way, way behind England.

The first 60 minutes looked standard, and I was thinking we’d put our foot down in the last 20 and pull away from them. The opposite proved to be true. I’m not actually too concerned about that for the time being however. My mother phoned me after the game to talk about it and made the rather sensible point that given Scotland’s injuries it was no surprise they dropped off when the replacements came on and they went down to 14 men. She’s by no means a rugby expert whatsoever but sometimes it takes someone who knows little to see the obvious. After all around 60 minutes when we were building a stonking lead he took off much of the team’s spine. In the last 10 we had Kerr, Graham and Harris all on. Kerr looked a wee bit off the pace which is fair enough, he’s young and inexperienced at pro level let alone international. Graham didn’t do much wrong or right but again he’s no experience at international level. Harris has had a “mixed record” at international level to say the least. We all knew the replacements weren’t the best today and the yellow card exacerbated that so there’s no surprise the last 20 were scratchy.

On the bright side the first XV looked very very strong and if we can keep them fit and add in Fraser Brown, Zander Fagerson, the Grays and Maitland and you’ve got a decent mix there. Hogg looked very good, Kinghorn better, Jones and Johnson were solid. Russell and Laidlaw looked like a mature half back partnership. Wilson player well although I am a bit concerned by the way he dealt with their scrum half after the break, God knows how he’d cope against a Vunipola in a similar situation. Strauss and Ritchie looked solid but we need a breakdown specialist. Our front five was particularly good. The bottom line remains, if we want to win the lot then that will have to be our worst performance.

Next week is a weird one, a win would set us up nicely, but Ireland have an awful lot to prove. Wales are a bloody good team but I’d back us at home against almost everybody. Although Gatland seems to have our players exactly where he wants them. We’ve had about 10 minutes of test action in 6 Lions games. And a 100% loss record against him. That said, if we play to our potential at home to Wales and against France I think we’ll win twice. If we lose to Ireland it’s starting to look like a long tournament, ideally we’ll get Wales’ first half performance, France’s second half, Ireland’s second half and England’s 2018.

Set piece was pleasing yesterday - perfect lineout (until Kerr's throw) and every lineout gave clean ball to attack from.

Scrums were a mess but given most of our put ins were solid so that maybe says something about what the problem was.

I was pleasantly surprised with how good our rucking was - we got several turnovers from aggressive counter rucks. As Townsend said though, we probably shouldn't have carried on doing that while a man down as it left us short out wide.

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/was-stuart-hogg-robbed%3F/613466

Robbed!

RDW wrote:https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/was-stuart-hogg-robbed%3F/613466

Robbed!

I know that at grassroots level referees are told to tilt the refereeing to the losing team if the game is becoming too one sided, I'm not sure if it applies at the highest level and I would highly doubt that. But if Scotland were ahead at that point I reckon he would have let play go on and had a look at it later.
Perhaps it's a blessing he didn't allow it, if we'd gone any further ahead we might have stopped running altogether.

RDW wrote:https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/was-stuart-hogg-robbed%3F/613466

Robbed!

That was a complete nonsense of a decision, it looks like Price was behind Hogg when he was pushed.

Yesterday was a total mixed bag, on the negative side of the ledger I think it shows a few things.  

1) Our injuries have really affected our depth - it isn't necessarily their fault, but the likes of Kerr, Graham, Bhatti are not at a good enough level - not much we can do about this, but against Ireland we really need these guys to step up as best they can.

2) Our leadership when Laidlaw and McInally went off was atrocious - no way would we have played like we did if either of those guys were on the pitch - all during the game you heard Laidlaw urging his forwards on and organising play.  I haven't always liked how he plays the game, but he is so so important to the team.

3) I think Toonie got the bench wrong, with Skinner going off it meant Gilchrist and Toolis playing the whole game.

On the positive side, there were some really good performances - I thought Johnson was brilliant, he knitted everything together perfectly.  Russell looked very good, so unbelievably calm and composed - i thought he should have been MoM.  Hogg was his usual brilliant self.  In the forwards, I thought Richie was the standout - fairplay to him, i thought he might be a weak link but he was very good.

Looking forward, I think we are going to have to go up several levels in terms of intensity.  Not too many changes in terms of personnel, i'd go with the following:

Front 5 - Gray in for Toolis who drops to the bench.  Hopefully Brown can come in and replace Kerr.
Backrow - Wilson to six and Strauss to 8, with Graham staying on the bench to cover the entire backrow - think that has quite a nice balance to it.  
Backline - I would actually play Maitland if he is fit, he has been brilliant for Scotland.  I would drop Kinghorn to the bench for Harris and move Horne to replace hastings.

I really am not sure if we can drop Kinghorn now after scoring a hat trick. He played a good all round game as well, not just scored the try.

I would keep the same back line but change the subs, going with Maitland, and the Horne brothers. Price did not really manage to up the pace when he came on, but that may not have been his fault as everyone else switched off at the same time.

There may be a good argument for putting Hardie in the team for this one as well, a really hard hitting OS may be just what we need against the big Irish ball carriers.

I am sure Toonie will pick a horses for courses team and there will be a few changes. Despite players generally playing very well.

I like the sound of that bench biggee. Add Jonny Gray and Fraser Brown as well and we've got a much stronger bench than yesterday.

Agreed kinghorn shouldn't be dropped and if maitland returns that's bench cover for wing and 15 sorted if it really hits the fan in the style of England 2017 and both kinghorn and hogg go down.

Both hornes would be a welcome addition to the bench, but i get the feeling toonie will persist with Harris. It'd be too soon for zander but if JG is fit then he'll do nicely on the bench, as i think we will definitely need strong subs come 60 mins.

Sam Johnson is first choice at 12 now I'd say, let's hope he doesn't get injured, he looks very assured and is a good foil for finn.

In some senses, our injury crisis is actually working out ok, as we are being reinforced during the tournament as it gets tougher. I hope ireland are still shellshocked and we can put one over on them too, but i can't see them having the same performance next week.

Without knowing the teams and based on this weekend I'd have Ireland in front still. If we have our bench reinforced i think it'll bring it closer to evens.

I'd keep the backline exactly as it is, I'd maybe replace Seymour with Maitland if I was to bring someone in but I do think watching the game again that Johnson may well be the missing link we've needed at 12. He'll have to do it against better opposition but that's just round the corner. On the bench I'd probably have the two Hornes and Maitland. If Russell comes off we have the choice of putting Horne there to go close for like to like, or putting Laidlaw in for a more controlling presence. Ali Price or George Horne is a difficult call but I think Horne is just a better player. Harris again simply isn't as good as Maitland and Horne covers centre.

I think Hardie needs to come into the squad. No matter what he has or hasn't put up his honker, he's done his time and he's done it at the highest level. Putting Ritchie to 6, Hardie to 7 and Wilson at 8 and Strauss on the bench would help us out with Ireland. Especially now Stander is out and O'Brien will be coming into the squad, we need a stronger presence at the breakdown even if Hardie is less breakdown focused than most opensides. If Gray is fit I'd expect him back in the squad and the sooner we get a decent hooker on the bench the better.

To be fair to Kerr, he did not do to badly for a first run out, other than one line out misstake (unfortunately his only one), other than that he certainly put himself about.

It will be good experience for him, but he is not ready for this level yet, even if he has to do another 10 minutes next weeknd.

I didn't think the lineout was his fault - just a very good defensive play

I would also agree with keep the backs as they are.  I know Frodo has his faults and there is little love for him but to me its obvious we play better when he is there.  Look to the Wales game in the Autumn.

Maitland on the bench.  I see no point in Hastings on the bench.  Dancer will play 80- mins unless injured and if he is Frodo goes to 10

Problem with that is if Laidlaw gets injured first or you want to bring on Georgie with 15 mins to go to really crank up the pace. He can do that and at this stage in his career is the perfect impact sub

I think it is very risky not to have some kind of FH cover on the bench. Horne or Hastings is really the question, assuming PH is fit now

If we had another FH then I would agree but Hastings is not ready and has lost all form.  P Hornes is a decent player but not an international FH.  Thats why I'd have Frodo as plan B and Hogg as plan C

Not having Hastings on the bench does not stop wee Georgie coming on as an impact sub - I don't really get that point.

TJ wrote:If we had another FH then I would agree but Hastings is not ready and has lost all form.  P Hornes is a decent player but not an international FH.  Thats why I'd have Frodo as plan B and Hogg as plan C

Not having Hastings on the bench does not stop wee Georgie coming on as an impact sub - I don't really get that point.

It means you cannot then have a George Horne/Finn Russell axis at half back, which is a potentially potent combo. To do that, you would have to sub Laidlaw off

It is asking an awful lot of Greg to go the whole 80 mins as well, SHs have to cover an awful lot of ground and then to have the composure to slot into FH. Greg can fill in there, but does not play there at all often. We have other options these days.

Laidlaw will play the full 80 unless we're way behind or way ahead anyway. If it's close he'll be on the pitch, simply because I can't remember the last time we pulled off a close win without him. If we're behind by 10+ then there's little point in him being on the pitch over Horne or Russell, he's simply not gonna produce that bit of magic that will change the game.
If Russell isn't having one of his off games then he'll be on the pitch the whole match unless something goes awry. When Russell is off then it is normally because the opposition make it so, there's little chance of Hastings producing something that Russell can't. Hastings is a good player but he's one who is probably about four years behind Russell in terms of development, which makes sense of course. So if Russell is not producing the goods then it makes sense to move a different type of fly-half to 10. Now the only player we have capable of orchestrating an effective and different way of playing rugby from fly-half is Greig Laidlaw. Duncan Weir is the only other option and despite his obvious improvement at Worcester he simply is not going to do the business against Ireland even if he was in the squad.
If Russell is doing the business from 10 and gets injured, I'd say it is a very close call between Pete Horne and Adam Hastings as to who would be the better option to bring on. On form (given Hastings currently has none) and experience (Hastings has little) you would have to go with Horne. I think Hastings is a better player than Horne and certainly a better fly-half, before the Autumn there would be no question, but Hastings has been poor since the Autumn really.
The caveat is that, whether we like it or not, Hastings will be going to the world cup as our second choice fly-half (I expect Toonie will only take two on the basis that we have Horne and Laidlaw who have international experience covering, with Hogg and Kinghorn who could potentially cover at an absolute push in a crisis situation). We can wrap him up in cotton wool and keep him away from the big games like this because he isn't on form. But if we reach the quarter-finals or even the semi-finals in the Autumn and something happens to Finn Russell and we wish to carry on playing our game then Hastings will be the best option. It depends whether Toonie wishes to risk him coming on, playing poorly against top opposition in a pressure game now and learning from it.
On balance leaving him out seems the better option, there's games to be played in the rest of the tournament. He can play for Glasgow a couple of times and get himself back into form for the last three games. Ireland could be a season decider; win and opportunity knocks, lose and we're in the same place as we were last year, lose poorly and the rest of the tournament looks very very long.
Although at least we're not choosing between Godman, Jackson and Parks.

at least we're not choosing between Godman, Jackson and Parks.

The stuff of nightmares!

BigGee wrote:I really am not sure if we can drop Kinghorn now after scoring a hat trick. He played a good all round game as well, not just scored the try.

I would keep the same back line but change the subs, going with Maitland, and the Horne brothers. Price did not really manage to up the pace when he came on, but that may not have been his fault as everyone else switched off at the same time.

There may be a good argument for putting Hardie in the team for this one as well, a really hard hitting OS may be just what we need against the big Irish ball carriers.

I am sure Toonie will pick a horses for courses team and there will be a few changes. Despite players generally playing very well.

It would be a difficult selection not to pick Kinghorn, but I think Maitland has enough credit in the bank - he has been superb for us for a while now. Against Ireland, I would want him in my team.

Kinghorn did play well, but you would really expect most international wings to score his first two attempts. He also butchered a pretty straightforward 2 on 1, which against better opposition will count for a lot more than it did against Italy. On that topic, it does slightly annoy me that whoever gets a hatrick seems to automatically get the MoM - I thought Johnson and Russell were the outstanding players on Sat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47108389

Tom English spot on as always.

Someone fancy doing an Ireland thread?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six-nations-referee-tells-stuart-hogg-sorry-i-was-wrong-3t9vn0jp2

FFS!

RDW wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six-nations-referee-tells-stuart-hogg-sorry-i-was-wrong-3t9vn0jp2

FFS!

A "Welsh-born English referee"?

RDW wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47108389

Tom English spot on as always.

Someone fancy doing an Ireland thread?

Seeing as you're 'all black' now...:
https://www.606v2.com/t68408-6n-2019-scotland-v-ireland-9-february

Yes I think Russell and Johnson was the best 10/12 pairing I've seen for a while. Johnson was really sharp and his passing is so much crisper than P Horne's and any other Scotland 12 for that matter. Let's see how he does vs Ireland but I think Scotland may now have a solid inside centre who can really help get the best out of the Scottish backline.

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but Jones was cutting a lot of dummy runs which I thought was very clever. I'm guessing this was a Toonie decision to confuse the Italian defence as he was such a danger man last year who was getting a lot of ball.

The gamplan seems a lot more controlled now than it once was which I think is a good thing for the 6N. I liked the way Russell and Hogg pinned Italy back and forced them to box kick to clear their lines. When they kept it in field Hogg was receiving it and causing damage.

bsando wrote:Yes I think Russell and Johnson was the best 10/12 pairing I've seen for a while. Johnson was really sharp and his passing is so much crisper than P Horne's and any other Scotland 12 for that matter. Let's see how he does vs Ireland but I think Scotland may now have a solid inside centre who can really help get the best out of the Scottish backline.

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but Jones was cutting a lot of dummy runs which I thought was very clever. I'm guessing this was a Toonie decision to confuse the Italian defence as he was such a danger man last year who was getting a lot of ball.

The gamplan seems a lot more controlled now than it once was which I think is a good thing for the 6N. I liked the way Russell and Hogg pinned Italy back and forced them to box kick to clear their lines. When they kept it in field Hogg was receiving it and causing damage.

Yeah, I thought there was an added maturity to Finn and Hoggy's play - they both kicked very well from hand, which maybe signifies a slight shift in Toonie's philosophy.

Delighted that Johnson played so well, he could be the glue that holds our back line together - he straightened the line well, passed nicely without throwing any hail mary's and was in at first receiver for some of the first phase moves, allowing Russell to get the ball in a bit more space.

After watching this game yesterday, I thought Italy finished far stronger than Scotland, and it looked as though after Scotland made their changes, thinking the game was won, they were a lot less convincing.

I cannot put my finger on it, was it a fitness issue ? A lack of depth issue ? I don't know. But what I do know is, Scotland are starting to make Murrayfield a lot more daunting a place to play for visiting teams.

Scotland's 1st 15 are a match for anyone in my eyes, they now need to build on this.