6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Stop talking shoite Taylorman. All teams get injuries. Irelands player management is absolutely fine. Schmidt is very conservative re picking players who arent fully fit. Yet when we do get injuries our deputies generally do very well.

Marmion and VdF v NZ
Roux  and Carbery v Scotland
Jackson v SA a couple of years ago
Murphy v Australia in the summer
Madigan v France in the last RWC

There are way more examples of subs coming in and making a mark than the other way round.

Still not getting it huh? Its not about not playing players when theyre not fully fit. Thats commonnsense. Its about spreading the match load... all matches... across a wider group of players. Not playing players when they are fully fit. Why do you think ireland had so many injuries when they hit quarters time in 2015. Luck? All teams have injuries? Nah, they had far too many. So what was the learning from that? 6N is nothing compared to the WCup so Schmidt should ne backing the full scope of his depth for the remainder of the tournament.

we rested players like McCaw and carter for half to a full season before the world cup. Fit players cant play all year, they need to be managed so theyre not just fit, but at peak. Sexton didnt need to play vs Scotland, yet went off injured. What part of this six nations gives you evidence that this is world cup year? None? Yet we already have players that wont play super rugby at all for at least a couple of months, some more.

And how much would you, or Schmidt really know about preparing a side for a successful world cup campaign?  which should have started this time last year. Already Ireland look like theyre headed down the tired slippery rope england did last year and ireland did in 15.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't mccaw play through at least a couple of world cup games with a broken foot?

SecretFly wrote:Yeah but he's an exceptional player, innit.  He's just unlucky that he played for a very bad team..........

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You might always try to argue that Ireland struggle for consistency because of playing numbers when compared to England but then what is France's excuse?  What I won!t accept though is a notion that Ireland's style of play at International (the boring stuff as it were) is somehow informed by those same 'playing numbers'.  Scotland doesn't play a 'boring' game at International... neither does Wales.  We have easily the same numbers of naturally skilled athletes in Ireland as in those two Nations.  The difference is the coaching philosophy.  Now, who is to say Joe Schmidt's philosophy is wrong.  It has been proven to be effective for long enough.  But it just shows how quickly a coaching philosophy impacts on the image of the players themselves chosen to play it.
We have talent enough to play an open, expansive, offloading opportunistic game if such a game plan was given the green light.  But then, maybe we wouldn't have reached 2nd in the World a few times since Schmidt came onboard.  But it is frustrating at times to see talented individuals running directly into contact over and over and over again with only one or two little tricks per game.  It's painful because it impacts on the individual reputation of these players - boring.

Ireland have shown at the last RWC that they can't rely on calling the next cab on the rank if they've never travelled with them before.
Eddie O'S showed in 2007 that Ireland can't sustain an exciting game plan with only a few players who can play it. Ireland WON (next to) nothing playing the exciting gameplan, they simply didn't have a replacement for BOD who was increasingly injured.

Good point. Irelands gameplan of heavy contact, defence and reliance on defence, not getting behind on the scoreboard demands better player management in a world cup year than what they have at the moment, which looks to be none.

And already they have a slew of injuries. A september world cup needed a 45-50 wide squad for 2019 to rest key players and Ireland face going into japan flat and injured at the current rate of attrition. The other sides are similar but Irelands gameplan of high contact requirements demands it more.

So with the recent injuries theyre already starting to get behind. SH sides have a huge advantage from a timing perspective. Many wont even front Super rugby for a couple more months yet. So an April to sept run is ideal.

majesticimperialman wrote:Is hog out for the rest of the tournament?

miaow wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You might always try to argue that Ireland struggle for consistency because of playing numbers when compared to England but then what is France's excuse?  What I won!t accept though is a notion that Ireland's style of play at International (the boring stuff as it were) is somehow informed by those same 'playing numbers'.  Scotland doesn't play a 'boring' game at International... neither does Wales.  We have easily the same numbers of naturally skilled athletes in Ireland as in those two Nations.  The difference is the coaching philosophy.  Now, who is to say Joe Schmidt's philosophy is wrong.  It has been proven to be effective for long enough.  But it just shows how quickly a coaching philosophy impacts on the image of the players themselves chosen to play it.
We have talent enough to play an open, expansive, offloading opportunistic game if such a game plan was given the green light.  But then, maybe we wouldn't have reached 2nd in the World a few times since Schmidt came onboard.  But it is frustrating at times to see talented individuals running directly into contact over and over and over again with only one or two little tricks per game.  It's painful because it impacts on the individual reputation of these players - boring.

Ireland have shown at the last RWC that they can't rely on calling the next cab on the rank if they've never travelled with them before.
Eddie O'S showed in 2007 that Ireland can't sustain an exciting game plan with only a few players who can play it. Ireland WON (next to) nothing playing the exciting gameplan, they simply didn't have a replacement for BOD who was increasingly injured.

Good point. Irelands gameplan of heavy contact, defence and reliance on defence, not getting behind on the scoreboard demands better player management in a world cup year than what they have at the moment, which looks to be none.

And already they have a slew of injuries. A september world cup needed a 45-50 wide squad for 2019 to rest key players and Ireland face going into japan flat and injured at the current rate of attrition. The other sides are similar but Irelands gameplan of high contact requirements demands it more.

So with the recent injuries theyre already starting to get behind. SH sides have a huge advantage from a timing perspective. Many wont even front Super rugby for a couple more months yet. So an April to sept run is ideal.

Do agree that the calendar favours the SH slightly in terms of giving players a run to the RWC. But it's not all one way - NH teams might be undercooked/not match ready come September as well. I feel like Ireland have probably suffered that way in the past. SANZAR teams can get it right with the Rugby Championship acting as a good warm up for the properevent.

In terms of player management, more specifically in relation to rotation, give this a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd5aQl1eyw0

SecretFly wrote:So what do you see in Ireland's lineup and ..... for want of a better word, 'form' that makes you think Schmidt is needlessly prioritising 6N over and beyond the WC?  Apart from refusing to take part in it, I don't see how a coach can avoid turning out a side that at least might try to keep team confidence up.  But nothing about Ireland's performances so far tell me Schmidt is over committing to 6N.  We're well off the intensity required to do well and I think our coaching team are smart enough to realise that on the training ground even before the competition started.
Even Sexton.  He's not been playing and if he's to be a cog at the World Cup... he needs to be playing.  So even there, in long term thinking, Schmidt doesn't really have a choice but to play Sexton, and indeed Murray, when he can in tough enough tests.  Don't get much tougher than the one against England.

SecretFly wrote:I guess Carbery was lined up for two games anyway.  I'd say he was Going to be given the Italy game and perhaps France.  I don't think Schmidt ever intended making Sexton play all five games as starter.  You might question why he even played him against England when he was just back playing.  Baptism of fire!  But there too when you think about it, that's probably planning with Carbery in mind.  Our coaching team knew what mood England were in and we need to keep Carbery's faith in himself rising.  Perhaps Schmidt decided that first BIG game against England mightn't have been the best route to sustaining and growing the confidence.  So the old dog was brought in... but he was way off the level required.
Schmidt has had to gamble quite a bit so far, and it hasn't paid off but without a doubt he and many of the players have 'form' thoughts shifted on this year to peak in the Autumn rather than 6N.

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, Murray looks more knackered and brittle than Sexton, if that’s possible. He looks shot mentally and, especially physically.

Taylorman wrote:

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, Murray looks more knackered and brittle than Sexton, if that’s possible. He looks shot mentally and, especially physically.

What was his actual injury, cant remember seeing that. looked shrouded in secrecy for a while there...

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland are benefitting from Tadgh Beirne returning to Ireland. Simin Zebo, Donnacha Ryan or Ian Madigan could hypothetically be called on.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I guess Carbery was lined up for two games anyway.  I'd say he was Going to be given the Italy game and perhaps France.  I don't think Schmidt ever intended making Sexton play all five games as starter.  You might question why he even played him against England when he was just back playing.  Baptism of fire!  But there too when you think about it, that's probably planning with Carbery in mind.  Our coaching team knew what mood England were in and we need to keep Carbery's faith in himself rising.  Perhaps Schmidt decided that first BIG game against England mightn't have been the best route to sustaining and growing the confidence.  So the old dog was brought in... but he was way off the level required.
Schmidt has had to gamble quite a bit so far, and it hasn't paid off but without a doubt he and many of the players have 'form' thoughts shifted on this year to peak in the Autumn rather than 6N.

Certainly a lot on their shoulders and I guess key to holding Ireland flat is if they can suffocate both Murray and Sexton half the jobs done. I think Murray will be ok Japan time but Sexton will need a Carter type run in those last three matches where everything he did turned to gold, and remained injury free.

And remember this is a different year. Sexton could be roughed up by others in club play. Scotland are in their pool and SA are likely last 8. it would be a big favour if Sexton was given a hard time playing for Leinster. Not that I'm advocating it but after seeing McCaw targeted by all and sundry most of his career this stuff happens. Which is why 'not playing' even when fit, can provide longevity that might not otherwise be there. Of all players in the NH, Sexton does appear to be singularly more influential than any other player of the NH sides, and slightly more brittle within that. Time for the cotton wool I say. He can work his form in in pool play. You just have to imagine Irelands chances without him at all...grim at best. Carbery might be good but you need seasoned, successful pros at 10 to win it. Every win has had that, bar possibly 2007 with SA but even then James was steady.

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah not much to be gained from playimg some of those guys. Remarkably Rory Best has been as consistently good as always. What a player.

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah not much to be gained from playimg some of those guys. Remarkably Rory Best has been as consistently good as always. What a player.

Glad someone noticed, so many just seem to dismiss him as average or even poor. He did have a slow start to the season but he's been in good form over the past few months, at his age I think he needs to get a run of games to get sharp.

He probably doesn't stand out as much in the loose these days, the interpretations at the ruck make it harder for players to steal the ball and he is probably slowing up a bit to get many yards but his basics are very good and gets through a lot of work in defense.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So what do you see in Ireland's lineup and ..... for want of a better word, 'form' that makes you think Schmidt is needlessly prioritising 6N over and beyond the WC?  Apart from refusing to take part in it, I don't see how a coach can avoid turning out a side that at least might try to keep team confidence up.  But nothing about Ireland's performances so far tell me Schmidt is over committing to 6N.  We're well off the intensity required to do well and I think our coaching team are smart enough to realise that on the training ground even before the competition started.
Even Sexton.  He's not been playing and if he's to be a cog at the World Cup... he needs to be playing.  So even there, in long term thinking, Schmidt doesn't really have a choice but to play Sexton, and indeed Murray, when he can in tough enough tests.  Don't get much tougher than the one against England.

Nothing specific, it just depends on what Schmidts idea of managing each players performances is.
For example, for me, I would have given Sexton England and Wales with Carberry, if he is indeed number 2...Italy, Scotland and France.

That way Sexton plays the most likely key matches for their 6N chances, and gets a goid break between the two. Meanwhile, Carberry gets three full tests in the heat of real test match atmosphere to gain the confidence he needs to either back up, or replace Sexton for some or all of the entirety of the world cup.
And they will have been told two months ago to expect those selections so they... particularly Carbery... could prepare mentallly for ‘his tests’, so he can run the show from the start and put pressure on sexton.
Coming on as sub isnt full preparation even if he may be asked to do that in Japan.

So whats Schmidts plan for managing Sexton and Carbery as a back up? I dont know. But he sure needs one. Winging it on the day isnt enough.

Taylorman wrote:I see Nonu has declared interest in the AB's again in one of the more predictable stories at the moment. Its this sort of thing that can lead to the improvement in SH sides that dont happen in non WCup years, i.e last years AI's.

Nonu may not get in but at least he'll be 'available' at least in order that we can turn him down and go with someone 'better'. Same with AA Cooper for Oz.

miaow wrote:Just briefly on Best: do no Irish posters have an issue with his lineout throwing?

miaow wrote:Just briefly on Best: do no Irish posters have an issue with his lineout throwing?

miaow wrote:I do think apart from Guirado, George and Owens he's the best hooker in the championship, and not that far of those 3.

miaow wrote:He definitely does have a problem though. Particularly under pressure. The better/best (no pun intended...) open play hookers are often average throwers - they're in there because they offer something in the loose. Hibbard, for instance, scrummaging and tackling. Marx, rucking and running. So maybe, generally speaking, throwing as a whole isn't as good as it was (something to look into but cba) but Best does bottle it on the big pressure throws. It's happened for far too many years to be incidental. Happened against England this 6Ns.

miaow wrote:

rodders wrote:

miaow wrote:I do think apart from Guirado, George and Owens he's the best hooker in the championship, and not that far of those 3.

Guirado? Good. Ken? Better. Rory?

Erm...

miaow wrote:

rodders wrote:

miaow wrote:I do think apart from Guirado, George and Owens he's the best hooker in the championship, and not that far of those 3.

Guirado? Good. Ken? Better. Rory?

Erm...

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:He definitely does have a problem though. Particularly under pressure. The better/best (no pun intended...) open play hookers are often average throwers - they're in there because they offer something in the loose. Hibbard, for instance, scrummaging and tackling. Marx, rucking and running. So maybe, generally speaking, throwing as a whole isn't as good as it was (something to look into but cba) but Best does bottle it on the big pressure throws. It's happened for far too many years to be incidental. Happened against England this 6Ns.

I dont see it. Any numbers to back that up?

robbo277 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I guess Carbery was lined up for two games anyway.  I'd say he was Going to be given the Italy game and perhaps France.  I don't think Schmidt ever intended making Sexton play all five games as starter.  You might question why he even played him against England when he was just back playing.  Baptism of fire!  But there too when you think about it, that's probably planning with Carbery in mind.  Our coaching team knew what mood England were in and we need to keep Carbery's faith in himself rising.  Perhaps Schmidt decided that first BIG game against England mightn't have been the best route to sustaining and growing the confidence.  So the old dog was brought in... but he was way off the level required.
Schmidt has had to gamble quite a bit so far, and it hasn't paid off but without a doubt he and many of the players have 'form' thoughts shifted on this year to peak in the Autumn rather than 6N.

Certainly a lot on their shoulders and I guess key to holding Ireland flat is if they can suffocate both Murray and Sexton half the jobs done. I think Murray will be ok Japan time but Sexton will need a Carter type run in those last three matches where everything he did turned to gold, and remained injury free.

And remember this is a different year. Sexton could be roughed up by others in club play. Scotland are in their pool and SA are likely last 8. it would be a big favour if Sexton was given a hard time playing for Leinster. Not that I'm advocating it but after seeing McCaw targeted by all and sundry most of his career this stuff happens. Which is why 'not playing' even when fit, can provide longevity that might not otherwise be there. Of all players in the NH, Sexton does appear to be singularly more influential than any other player of the NH sides, and slightly more brittle within that. Time for the cotton wool I say. He can work his form in in pool play. You just have to imagine Irelands chances without him at all...grim at best. Carbery might be good but you need seasoned, successful pros at 10 to win it. Every win has had that, bar possibly 2007 with SA but even then James was steady.

If you "rough someone up" in a club game in April with the intention of impacting his ability to play in September and he is out of the World Cup in September, you haven't roughed him up, you have assaulted him.

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:He definitely does have a problem though. Particularly under pressure. The better/best (no pun intended...) open play hookers are often average throwers - they're in there because they offer something in the loose. Hibbard, for instance, scrummaging and tackling. Marx, rucking and running. So maybe, generally speaking, throwing as a whole isn't as good as it was (something to look into but cba) but Best does bottle it on the big pressure throws. It's happened for far too many years to be incidental. Happened against England this 6Ns.

I dont see it. Any numbers to back that up?

Probably could, but cba. More the concerned face scrunch he gets when you can tell he's really not looking forward to putting the ball in having already missed a key throw...and then he misses it.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I see Nonu has declared interest in the AB's again in one of the more predictable stories at the moment. Its this sort of thing that can lead to the improvement in SH sides that dont happen in non WCup years, i.e last years AI's.

Nonu may not get in but at least he'll be 'available' at least in order that we can turn him down and go with someone 'better'. Same with AA Cooper for Oz.

How hypocritical are these guys? They take the money and the lifestyle when it suits them and then threaten to leave their club floundering when they are most needed. Further than that, they threaten the existing incumbents in their national teams, upsetting that spirit for their own self-glorification.

SecretFly wrote:Is McCaw still doing the helicoptering career in NZ.  What a life and what a country to do it in.... lucky blighter.