Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

So is the newly formed Professional Rugby Board (PRB) going to create stability in the Welsh Professional game or just be a stay of execution before the 4 regions get cut to 3 or even 2.

We don't have the funds in Wales to maintain the existing professional sides, but the problem is, cut one and that wont mean the remaining 3 get more revenue, as supporters and fans of a region will not simply support another is theirs are disbanded, as proved when they disbanded the Celtic Warriors.

I hate the fact, but we don't have the funds to keep professional rugby in Wales, and I foresee the demise of it looming..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47348518?isBumped=0&postFreq=0&isEmpty=0&isProfane=0&tooLong=0&charCount=0&isAwaitingProcessPreMod=0&isSubmitted=1&filter=none&initial_page_size=10&postId=133850859#comment_133850859

I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work

Thoughts....

Its all off again... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47461662

Lets hope thats the last we hear of this rubbish until the 6 Nations is over at least...

[mikey_dragon]

I'm not sure maybe ask Connacht fans as I tend to take you with a pinch of salt? You don't exactly buy Lam, Aki and that Fox-Matamua (?) on hopes and dreams, do you? Connacht haven't been a development team since 2011 or there abouts as far as I know.

You take what I say with a pinch of salt yet you are arguing against me based on assumptions? As I pointed out Ulster saw a fall in investment this season yet have improved, you fail to address that. I mean it's not like Toulon have invested heavily this season and went backwards, how much extra investment have Treviso received this season or could the answer lie in 2008 when Connact were put under review due to poor performance and that while many expected them to be shut down the review found that Nigel Carolan had created an academy system that looked set to reap rewards and that to get the best out of Connacht the structures within the province needed to change the organisation was revamped.

I mean maybe, just maybe, it comes down to a number of factors and while investment is a nice thing there is no point spending a load of money on fancy new things if you don't have a clue how to use them or the right environment to make them work effectively but hey what do I know it's just what the experts say

Oh dear do you just like arguing with people on the internet for the sake of it? Nobody said finance was the only factor, but probably the most important one as without it you will not get a decent player or coach. Seeing as you used Ulster as an example, well we know they did have more investment before which allowed them to bring in good coaches and players, and I would assume some cash went into the academy as a few good players have come through since then. Also they had some former Leinstermen sent their way (Moore, Murphy), with possibly another on the way - kinda negates your point about Ulster being hard done by.

I've also been saying for months that we here in Wales need to bring in better coaches, but with no other incentive for them all we can do is offer more money - which we can't.

Connacht aren't a development team, I can't find anything to suggest that they are. They did improve with more investment as I said, which led to the introduction of new coaches and players; I thought that was pretty obvious though. Any Connacht-men here that can confirm?

Not one for self awareness or spotting irony are you considering half your posts are quips about me or just straight attacks

If you are going to make comments about Ulster it might be a good idea to have a clue what you're talking about, as Geoff rightly points out no one was sent Ulsters way from Leinster which negates your whole argument. The only player who might be considered as being sent Ulsters way is Cooney and that was by the IRFU forcing Pienaar out.

Ulster spent money on Jono Gibbes, remind me what a roaring success that was?

As for the academy, it improved when Ulster brought in Kieran Campbell and Willie Anderson who changed the culture of recruitment for the system and how players were developed. This is added by Ulsters budget being cut and opportunity being created for the young players to prove themselves, something that big expensive signings hindered in the past.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-to-limit-foreign-players-177998.html

(Connacht are exempt because they recently commenced a new development agreement with the IRFU

Feel free to tell me when that agreement ended or when the investment increased for Connacht

You haven't read my post or any of the others.

[marty2086]

I clearly have as you said

Connacht aren't a development team, I can't find anything to suggest that they are. They did improve with more investment as I said, which led to the introduction of new coaches and players; I thought that was pretty obvious though. Any Connacht-men here that can confirm?

Now I've asked you to show when the agreement between the IRFU and Connacht ended and when the increased investment you claimed was added and yet



So next time you come on making claims about me and taking what I say with a pinch of salt, please remember this moment

[mikey_dragon]

I said I couldn't find anything to suggest that they're a development team, which you've quoted. You don't seem to have taken in the whole conversation; you seem a little obsessed to be proven right when people are trying to find out further information, and you come out with BS like people are attacking you. In which case, now I'll have to ask you to stop being a fool, it's embarrassing for Ireland if it isn't for you.

[marty2086]

You seemed so intent on proving me wrong yet can never provide anything to back it up, you've decided I am and yet it's all based on what you think you know.

Just like you claimed Ulster were sent Leinstermen which again was a load of cr@p

[mikey_dragon]

I really wasn't, as you're of little-to-no concern to me. I was interested in actually discussing what was brought up though, which posters like Geoff and rodders duly did, among one or two others. They also stated that Connacht did get more funding which was something I was looking to discuss. Ulster did get more funding in the past, no idea if it's been cut since but Ulster fans (the real ones) here have said so - nobody argued against it bar you arguing with something that nobody said. Irish posters have also said that Connacht are NOT a development team.


Murphy got sent there though, McGrath on his way  #triggered #fakenews

[marty2086]

Well funny Jordi Murphy disagrees

Yes geoff said they extra funding came in in 2014, after Lam etc came in. Guess what the funding went towards...facilities and no change was made to the playing budget.

It was geoff again, who said Connacht weren't a development side yet they are still not aligned with the other 3 provinces......I wonder why that is

It's funny how you're shown something that proves you wrong, yet take the word of someone else...I wonder why that is

[marty2086]

So onto the actual point, extra investment can equal success but doesn't guarantee it and some club as Ulster have shown can improve when funding goes away. Almost like some clubs are overly focused on spending a load of money yet fail to get the structures and fundamentals right because they are being poorly run

[mikey_dragon]

Literally confused by you now, and at a greater level than before. It was me who questioned Connacht being a development team in the first place when it was you who was suggesting that they were. As most of us were having an adult discussion there hasn't been any 'proves you wrong' - so again I take it your arguing with yourself over points that you made. Very strange.

[marty2086]

Literally confused by you now, and at a greater level than before. It was me who questioned Connacht being a development team in the first place when it was you who was suggesting that they were. As most of us were having an adult discussion there hasn't been any 'proves you wrong' - so again I take it your arguing with yourself over points that you made. Very strange.

Where have I argued against my own points?

[mikey_dragon]

The points you keep arguing with were raised by you, read back if you're struggling as I doubt anyone else has time for you now.

[marty2086]

Challenging points you brought up?

You were the one who decided he wanted to challenge the points I raised, might be a good idea to just keep quiet in future rather than attacking people with false claims then complaining about them when they point it out

Whats the definition of a troll?

[mikey_dragon]

I'm not going to argue with you but I'm happy for you to argue with yourself, as strange as it is. Just read back what's already been said.

[marty2086]

If you say so

[Brendan]

The WRU probably can't afford Gatland once he starts getting bids from France or England but if they could would he be interested in managing a West Wales team for a year. He'd have the players. His game plan works at the highest level where teams are better. And if he won Europe his value would double as would calls for jobs. Or even just get him to be a coaching doctor while he does the Lions job

[mikey_dragon]

If you say so

I know so .

[PhilBB]

As for 4 teams in Wales the reality of population levels, and density, has to kick in at some point

That logic says Cardiff, Swansea and Newport should have teams.
The next level we have Wrexham and Merthyr.

Now rugby tradition must be taken into account
I would suggest a team in Newport and Cardiff should definitely be retained
Swansea posses a problem because of the outstanding rugby tradition in Llanelli
That circle needs to be squared somehow
To me that leaves a straight choice between a team in the North or a valleys team based in Merthyr
They are currently the most successful valleys team, have the best crowds in the Premiership and the largest population.
Will fans from the various valleys support them, probably not, but if a team away from the coast and in the valleys area is going to succeed that is it

Have you ever been to Merthyr?

[PhilBB]

I am suggesting it as the only viable 4th team as opposed to a team in North Wales.
I am certainly am not convinced it would work.
I also think going 2+2 is not a good idea.
Personally I would go for three fully funded teams
Cardiff, Newport and Swansea/Llanelli - how you square the Swansea/Llanelli issue god knows

I think your idea of "viability" is a bit screwed.

Teams are only viable where there is somebody (a group, an individual, or a union) willing to pay for them.

[PhilBB]

Wales has a population less than half of Ireland and for other reasons I suspect the funds simply aren't there

You cant make a rugby nation bigger than it actually is

Realistically a country of 3 million people probably has to accept some players in its national squad will be playing outside their boundaries

Checking the playing numbers from 2017, Ireland had just over 103k registered players to Wales 94k. The 2017 Figures don't give percentages but going by the 2011 figures which do, assuming they were similar, would mean senior males registered in Ireland were just over 17k while in Wales it was over 41k.

Would a new region in the right area with the right identity be able to tap into the English rugby fan too?

Does everything that is going on raise doubts about the CVC deal going through if that possible cash injection can't be a catalyst?

When figures are misrepresented as badly as they are above, it's always worth remembering that Ireland has 224 clubs.

[PhilBB]

I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work

The same muppets who thought a Pontypridd and Cardiff merger would work, then the same muppets who told the Ponty supporters to get behind their region, and started calling them all sorts of horrible names for not doing so.

If anything, a region will get demoted to a development region, where that will be though is anyone's guess.

Who has ever "told" Pontypridd fans that Cardiff Blues is "their region"?

[SecretFly]

Phill is there a rugby club in every village in Wales? Or I'll rephrase that for accuracy: is there a high proportion of villages/towns with rugby clubs?

[PhilBB]

Phill is there a rugby club in every village in Wales?  Or I'll rephrase that for accuracy:  is there a high proportion of villages/towns with rugby clubs?

Not sure how to measure that, sorry, but Wales has too many rugby clubs. There are about 300, so not too many more than Ireland, but with half the population. That's why lots of clubs are struggling to get first teams out, let alone second.

There are many reasons for this: too many clubs, too many now working on Saturdays so cannot commit to play, many jobs now not being forgiving for injuries suffered playing a hobby, the game being too physical, the game being competitive and so on. Mind you, these are the reasons I pick up from interacting with those involved with community clubs as I have no first hand exposure at that level of rugby.

Some clubs are growing and doing very well, of course.

[PhilBB]

Oh, and just to provide some facts to counter balance the stuff written by Lord Howellais:

at a recent Q&A, the Cardiff Blues Chief Executive noted that crowds are up at CAP this season from last year AND the average yield per ticket is up.

So at least Cardiff Blues are doing well from Premier Sports in terms of the additional TV income and the additional ticket income.

These, of course, are facts. I can't match Howellais for blind prejudice and fabrication.

[LordDowlais]

Phill, why are you so arrogant ?

You are very typical of somebody from your part of the world. Also, is there any need for name calling ?

Try reading this, from our national newspaper, I am not that blinkered that I cannot see what is happening in front of my own eyes:-

Well, seems that others are agreeing with me here in Wales about the state of the Pro14 since it left free to air TV, and Peter Jackson even touched on it on Scrum V on Sunday night, I know this is WOL, but it does make for interesting reading:-

The PRO14 is an invisible, convoluted mess that most people simply don't care about

The future of Welsh rugby doesn't look too bright in the PRO14

It was at a dinner table in a Cardiff Thai restaurant earlier this week that the message struck home more powerfully than for some time.

There we were, a bunch of rugby enthusiasts, discussing various issues affecting the game, when I issued my pals with a starter for 10.


"Which of the two Guinness PRO14 conferences do the four Welsh regions play in? Conference A or Conference B?"

An immediate bout of conferring ensued, but despite a variety of responses being thrown my way all five friends were forced into a resigned admission.

These were guesses. In terms of knowing the correct answer with any degree of certainty, not one of them had the faintest beginnings of an inkling of an idea.

Disturbingly, they will be far from alone.

Regional diehards will snort derision, but such derision merely underlines the point: the PRO14 is arguably less a part of the Welsh public's general sporting consciousness than at any time since the old club system was done away with in 2003 to usher in the brave new world of Welsh-Scottish-Irish-Italian combat.

And without an appeal to a more casual consumer base, its hard to see anything changing.

Over and above the stagnation - or decline - in match attendance here, data to underline the pervading sense of apathy is scarce.

Broadcaster Premier Sports recently declared subscriptions had exceeded their expectations, but such sweeping statements have little currency. Viewing figures since the paid-for channel took over coverage of the Guinness-backed tournament have been conspicuous by their absence. In fact, several requests for them by this organisation have proved fruitless.

Why? Is it because the unpalatable reality is that Guinness PRO14 rugby has become more invisible than ever since the bulk of it was removed from free-to-air TV?

Nobody disputes that the extra revenue on offer from Premier Sports was of huge importance to the regions, but if nobody's talking about what they're doing that revenue will soon start to drip away in more insidious streams.

After five months of bedding in, it is now difficult to argue that Premier Sports is not a reasonably safe pair of hands, despite one or two teething problems in the commentary box.

That shouldn't be a surprise because, let's face it, they've recruited so many who used to be involved with the BBC Scrum V programme. But how many are watching?

There are those who are adamant that the £10-a-month fee is worth every penny. Many more refuse point blank to pay yet another broadcaster for the privilege of watching rugby in their living rooms, especially when they don't particularly rate the product.

Furthermore, what you can't do, for the most part, is meet your mates down the pub to watch the game.

S4C have limited rights, sure. There's also the odd match on FreeSports if Southern Kings v Connacht takes your fancy.

But, for example, walking into your local over the Christmas period to watch the Welsh derby games wasn't an option in some towns. Not mine at any rate.

Doubtless there is the odd exception, but plenty of pubs simply don't screen Premier Sports. Who can blame them when it already costs thousands to provide Sky and BT?

Late last month, on a Friday night, Glasgow and the Ospreys played out a 9-3 affair at Scotstoun and the Scarlets went down 22-17 to Leinster in Dublin in what was a far perkier encounter.

While those two games were tucked behind a subscription paywall, Arsenal were playing Manchester United in the fourth round of the FA Cup on BBC One.

Given the mass appeal of what was happening at the Emirates Stadium, I would be surprised if the Welsh television audience for the rugby ran into four figures.

The PRO14, and all of its previous guises, has, and has always had, an image problem. It has always been given short shrift by UK national newspaper sports desks who don't regard it worthy of allocating a proper resource.

The introduction of South African teams, the move to two Conferences and the greater jeopardy introduced around qualification for the Champions Cup were all supposed to address that.

I am deeply unconvinced about whether, in terms of the PRO14 appeal in Wales, any of the above have come close to having the desired effect.

The conference system has just made following how the competition is unfolding more convoluted. The presence of the South Africans? It's neither here nor there. The Kings and the Cheetahs certainly don't boost turnstile revenue, so why should they be having any tangible impact on armchair watchers?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro14-invisible-convoluted-mess-most-15736120


Have read, this is really what putting the Pro14 on pay per view tele has done to the competition in Wales, yet certain members on here will say I talk nonsense. Rolling Eyes

[PhilBB]

Phill, why are you so arrogant ?

I'm not arrogant. I just pick up on the trash that you write. If you have to use Delme Parfitt as a reference point for your belief then that reflects only on you, not me.

As I've written elsewhere, I think that you forget the coverage of the (dreadful) PrO'14 on S4C.

For me, you're conflating two issues here:

The first is the league. I think that most in Wales would agree that the league is the worst possible marketplace for Welsh teams in terms of generating interest. However, despite that, crowds in Wales are still the highest in the league per population base (that's another fact that counters your baseless beliefs).

The second issue is the TV contract. You moan that it has caused people in Wales to lose interest in the league but you can't support that claim with any kind of figures - just prejudice. You omit from your analysis the FTA coverage on S4C and Freesports. You just completely ignore that. You don't use any BARB evidence, nor figures from S4C's own website.

Sure, most involved in Welsh rugby would far prefer to be in the English system and on BT Sports, but that isn't going to happen any time soon (if at all). So, sadly, we die a slow death in the PrO'14.

[marty2086]

Still no explanation as to why rugby enthusiasts don't know who plays in what conference? Do they not go to games? Read newspapers? Watch the news or pay attention prior to PremierSports?

Or could it be a completely fictitious story created to emphasise an opinion piece

What does it say about those running bars in Wales though if they won't pend £10 a month to draw in punters when they spend thousands?

[PhilBB]

What does it say about those running bars in Wales though if they won't pend £10 a month to draw in punters when they spend thousands?

Can anybody confirm the price of Premier Sports to businesses, please?

It would be most unusual for a broadcaster to charge the same rate to corporate as to retail.

[LordDowlais]

Yep it costs more to put PPV tele in a pub/club/bar or any place that people gather, other than your home.

Sky have that pint glass symbol in the bottom corner when it's a commercial license, BT sports has a rectangular shape, or it may be the other way around, anyway, I know my club pays a fortune for Sky and BT sports.

[LordDowlais]

Also, the amount you pay is by the square foot of your premises.

[PhilBB]

Yep it costs more to put PPV tele in a pub/club/bar or any place that people gather, other than your home.

Sky have that pint glass symbol in the bottom corner when it's a commercial license, BT sports has a rectangular shape, or it may be the other way around, anyway, I know my club pays a fortune for Sky and BT sports.

I thought as much.

So that means the patronising business advice from Martyn is based on him completely misunderstanding the pricing, in all likelihood. In which case, that's rather backfired.

[marty2086]

Also, the amount you pay is by the square foot of your premises.

Except a lot don't use Sky Sports to show games, Sky and the Premier League have lost a number of court cases over it all

[LordDowlais]

Also, the amount you pay is by the square foot of your premises.

Except a lot don't use Sky Sports to show games, Sky and the Premier League have lost a number of court cases over it all

marty, trust me, a lot do, we do, I am on the committee in my club, and the price of SKY and BT sports always raises it's ugly head, as most of the old codgers want to ditch it altogether, when the truth is, if we did not show the football when it's on, we would lose a lot of money over the bar.

Our club pays over 2K a month for the sports channels.

[marty2086]

Also, the amount you pay is by the square foot of your premises.

Except a lot don't use Sky Sports to show games, Sky and the Premier League have lost a number of court cases over it all

marty, trust me, a lot do, we do, I am on the committee in my club, and the price of SKY and BT sports always raises it's ugly head, as most of the old codgers want to ditch it altogether, when the truth is, if we did not show the football when it's on, we would lose a lot of money over the bar.

Our club pays over 2K a month for the sports channels.

I never said some don't, I'm pointing out there are alternative options available

The problem with BT and Sky is the Premier League, they have enforcement teams that make go after those who don't use either Sky or BT. Premier and the Pro14 don't have that so using cheaper alternatives is a lot easier

[Guest]

Dragons chairman, David Buttress, quoted as saying they want to try to make the region privately owned again. Interesting.

[mikey_dragon]

I paraphrase Saracens CEO; "Yeah we're in debt and running at a loss, but if we weren't we'd be bottom of the league yeah?"

Are there multi-millionaires willing to put in lots of money and not get anything out of it? I don't think so. And how much are we talking; it would take like 10M to completely turn around the fortunes of someone like the Dragons.

[PhilBB]

I paraphrase Saracens CEO; "Yeah we're in debt and running at a loss, but if we weren't we'd be bottom of the league yeah?"

Are there multi-millionaires willing to put in lots of money and not get anything out of it? I don't think so. And how much are we talking; it would take like 10M to completely turn around the fortunes of someone like the Dragons.

Which, interestingly, is a sum that may be (to a large part, at least) leveraged against the value of the land.

[PhilBB]

Dragons chairman, David Buttress, quoted as saying they want to try to make the region privately owned again. Interesting.

The whine of the North Walians ("well, if you're paying for a team in Newport then you have no reason to NOT pay for one in Colwyn Bay") has hopefully put the fear of God into Phillips and WGD, to the point where they will have to abandon their failure in Newport by selling up.

[mikey_dragon]

Seeing as we're supposedly doing away with dual contracts, does anyone know how the pay banding works?

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