Brexit

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Duty281 wrote:So a good day for the Prime Minister, at last. Motion carried and some pesky amendments defeated.

Yes folks a good day for the PM is telling the Country over 50 times in the Commons the UK is leaving on the 29th March and then winning an extension..

What a low bar..

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Brexit Party were always going to succeed...

The US and UK are home to thousands of people looking to blame someone because their lives aren't as fulfilled as they'd like...Probably brought up on James Stewart garbage and think that is life..or should be.

So along comes a guy very skilled in tapping into the frustration and hey presto The Brexit Party is thriving..

Sad thing is these People don't realise no one is a 100% happy but you either get on with it or you look for someone to blame..

I prefer to get on with it..

Voting Labour....For all its faults and leadership woes it has policies and I won't vote for Lib Dems after 2010-2015.

Agree with most of this.

Re. the last line - but you'd vote for Labour after Iraq? Seriously? Come on. At least the Lib Dems can say they were a minority part of the coalition at that point - they got shafted and the public, like the brain dead they mostly are, lapped it up allowing Dave's boys a free ride. Brexit and the Brexit Party fit right in and surprise me not at all.

They voted through the Tory agenda....So quite a big part of the Coalition to me...A lot of people suffering because of it.

I don't think this Labour resembles Blair's...Corbyn for all his faults voted against the War...

But we can disagree....

We do. I'd call the above a form of hypocrisy . I'd suggest you're an inherent Labour supporter at heart, and therefore probably don't apply the same rules to all parties equally...

Certain mantras get repeated to death in politics, usually in the hope of making something actually very complex over simplified and more importantly making some poop stick.

Three obvious ones
Any conservative MP not being able to make any statement without blaming Labour for the state of the economy
Blair ' but Iraq..'
Lib Dems 'Tuition fees'

Regardless of what you think of those 3 statements it is all history. The absolute state of the two main parties, the complete failure of Corbyn to cause any damage to the worst government in history - that is all in the here and now.

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Brexit Party were always going to succeed...

The US and UK are home to thousands of people looking to blame someone because their lives aren't as fulfilled as they'd like...Probably brought up on James Stewart garbage and think that is life..or should be.

So along comes a guy very skilled in tapping into the frustration and hey presto The Brexit Party is thriving..

Sad thing is these People don't realise no one is a 100% happy but you either get on with it or you look for someone to blame..

I prefer to get on with it..

Voting Labour....For all its faults and leadership woes it has policies and I won't vote for Lib Dems after 2010-2015.

Agree with most of this.

Re. the last line - but you'd vote for Labour after Iraq? Seriously? Come on. At least the Lib Dems can say they were a minority part of the coalition at that point - they got shafted and the public, like the brain dead they mostly are, lapped it up allowing Dave's boys a free ride. Brexit and the Brexit Party fit right in and surprise me not at all.

They voted through the Tory agenda....So quite a big part of the Coalition to me...A lot of people suffering because of it.

I don't think this Labour resembles Blair's...Corbyn for all his faults voted against the War...

But we can disagree....

We do. I'd call the above a form of hypocrisy . I'd suggest you're an inherent Labour supporter at heart, and therefore probably don't apply the same rules to all parties equally...

Certain mantras get repeated to death in politics, usually in the hope of making something actually very complex over simplified and more importantly making some poop stick.

Three obvious ones
Any conservative MP not being able to make any statement without blaming Labour for the state of the economy
Blair ' but Iraq..'
Lib Dems 'Tuition fees'

Regardless of what you think of those 3 statements it is all history. The absolute state of the two main parties, the complete failure of Corbyn to cause any damage to the worst government in history - that is all in the here and now.

Absolutely.

That said, some schidt really does need to stick to Bliar. People didn't just 'suffer' (to use Truss's phrase) because of what that deluded God-squadder did (illegally), they died. In their hundreds of thousands.

navyblueshorts wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Brexit Party were always going to succeed...

The US and UK are home to thousands of people looking to blame someone because their lives aren't as fulfilled as they'd like...Probably brought up on James Stewart garbage and think that is life..or should be.

So along comes a guy very skilled in tapping into the frustration and hey presto The Brexit Party is thriving..

Sad thing is these People don't realise no one is a 100% happy but you either get on with it or you look for someone to blame..

I prefer to get on with it..

Voting Labour....For all its faults and leadership woes it has policies and I won't vote for Lib Dems after 2010-2015.

Agree with most of this.

Re. the last line - but you'd vote for Labour after Iraq? Seriously? Come on. At least the Lib Dems can say they were a minority part of the coalition at that point - they got shafted and the public, like the brain dead they mostly are, lapped it up allowing Dave's boys a free ride. Brexit and the Brexit Party fit right in and surprise me not at all.

They voted through the Tory agenda....So quite a big part of the Coalition to me...A lot of people suffering because of it.

I don't think this Labour resembles Blair's...Corbyn for all his faults voted against the War...

But we can disagree....

We do. I'd call the above a form of hypocrisy . I'd suggest you're an inherent Labour supporter at heart, and therefore probably don't apply the same rules to all parties equally...

Certain mantras get repeated to death in politics, usually in the hope of making something actually very complex over simplified and more importantly making some poop stick.

Three obvious ones
Any conservative MP not being able to make any statement without blaming Labour for the state of the economy
Blair ' but Iraq..'
Lib Dems 'Tuition fees'

Regardless of what you think of those 3 statements it is all history. The absolute state of the two main parties, the complete failure of Corbyn to cause any damage to the worst government in history - that is all in the here and now.

Absolutely.

That said, some schidt really does need to stick to Bliar. People didn't just 'suffer' (to use Truss's phrase) because of what that deluded God-squadder did (illegally), they died. In their hundreds of thousands.

Well that is where I differ. The WMD thing always was BS, and the death of David Kelly raised many questions that have never been satisfactorily answered, but that war was always going to happen, and the alternatives would have delayed it not prevented it, what with Saddam being such a nice guy and Bush Junior having that 'unfinished business' thing going on. The true failure was in handling the peace, the dismantling of the internal security structures of Iraq without the wit and manpower to replace them.

Anyway almost all political careers end in failure. The longer anyone is in power the more poop there is to go alongside the achievements, and we tend to be a good deal better at remembering the poop than the good stuff.

So Farage has had a milkshake thrown over him this afternoon. This follows the other attacks on Jeremy Corbyn, Carl Benjamin and Tommy Robinson that have happened in the past couple of months. Added to which, a Labour candidate was punched a few weeks ago.

This is appalling stuff and sadly becoming increasingly normalised. I have no idea how any reasonable person could support such fascistic behaviour, yet we've seen support for such behaviour on this board and, of even more concern, from the odd MP and councillor.

How long before a politician gets drenched in acid, or murdered (again, sickeningly enough)?

Fascistic: 'Having or relating to extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.'

A deliberately provocative choice of adjective there, Duty. Not very helpful.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fascistic: 'Having or relating to extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.'

A deliberately provocative choice of adjective there, Duty. Not very helpful.

A key tenet of fascism is using violence and intimidation against your political opponents. That's exactly what this is.

That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

All political violence must be condemned.

To be fair, the milkshake stuff is being used as disapproval without violence. It’s protest. I find it a bit sad to compare it to the murder.

For the majority, I’m pretty sure people on here has been joking when they say they would chuck something at someone.

Didnt Farage say he would 'Pick up a rifle' if Brexit didnt get delivered? He can spare me the faux outrage over getting milkshaked.

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

All political violence must be condemned.

Show me where I've said it's okay.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

All political violence must be condemned.

Show me where I've said it's okay.

I've never once suggested that you've said it's okay; I'm reiterating that all political violence is wrong and damaging to our democratic process.

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

All political violence must be condemned.

Show me where I've said it's okay.

I've never once suggested that you've said it's okay; I'm reiterating that all political violence is wrong and damaging to our democratic process.

It's not good at all, I agree. But wasn't Farage only a few weeks ago talking about 'putting the fear of God' into our elected politicians?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's Yaxley-Lennon's stock-in-trade, Duty.

All political violence must be condemned.

Show me where I've said it's okay.

I've never once suggested that you've said it's okay; I'm reiterating that all political violence is wrong and damaging to our democratic process.

It's not good at all, I agree. But wasn't Farage only a few weeks ago talking about 'putting the fear of God' into our elected politicians?

Which is what he is currently doing leading a party that is nosing ahead of the Tories in Westminster polling.

You alluded to Jo Cox's murder in an earlier post. Don't you think it's grossly irresponsible for Farage to have used language like that? To have talked of 'taking up a rifle' to defend Brexit?

He's not a stupid man. He knows what he's doing when he says stuff like this.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You alluded to Jo Cox's murder in an earlier post. Don't you think it's grossly irresponsible for Farage to have used language like that? To have talked of 'taking up a rifle' to defend Brexit?

I do to a certain extent, yes.

Its been announced that the Electoral Commision are to visit the Brexit Party offices to review how they are funded. This comes a day after evidence appeared of donations being made in foreign currencies which Paypal converted to GBP so they could be legally accepted.

Not a good few days for Nigel. My heart bleeds.

Samo wrote:Its been announced that the Electoral Commision are to visit the Brexit Party offices to review how they are funded.  This comes a day after evidence appeared of donations being made in foreign currencies which Paypal converted to GBP so they could be legally accepted.

Not a good few days for Nigel.  My heart bleeds.

I have heard it said that they have some system for donating funds that does not allow payments above £500 - the threshold where they need to be recorded. Farage wallows in poop but very little actually sticks, although I suspect that he's going to get into trouble over the payment from Banks. I suspect it will be at EU level rather than here in the UK and probably after the elections.

Hopefully the Electoral Commission will also get round to investigating the 'Led by Donkeys' campaign group, which appears to have flouted spending limits quite considerably, as well as the People's Vote campaign group, which is a little light on declaring donations.

Of course, there's two political parties who have very suspicious financial affairs (Change UK and UKIP), but no one cares about them because they're doing so dismally in the polls!

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You alluded to Jo Cox's murder in an earlier post. Don't you think it's grossly irresponsible for Farage to have used language like that? To have talked of 'taking up a rifle' to defend Brexit?

I do to a certain extent, yes.

Why the qualification? Because of who said it?

Is it OK to throw rotten cabbages at performers if their act sucks? Or is that fascist?

British Steel is on the brink of collapse, with as many as 25,000 people potentially losing their job, citing “brexit-related issues”.

This Brexit dividend is paying for itself already.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Is it OK to throw rotten cabbages at performers if their act sucks? Or is that fascist?

Medieval; and stupid/childish/whatever.

Samo wrote:British Steel is on the brink of collapse, with as many as 25,000 people potentially losing their job, citing “brexit-related issues”.

This Brexit dividend is paying for itself already.

That's OK; just a flesh wound. We still don't believe those 'experts'....

May's latest installment looks sure to be voted down by another large majority.

Just goes to show that, once we get past all the vacuous sloganeering and promises that cannot be fulfilled, nobody wants what Brexit actually is. Instead the "supporters" of Brexit just keep peddling more fantasies.

Its almost as if its a massively complex issue that cant be resolved by a simple yes/no question.

Only way I can really see this ending is going back to the public on a referendum that has clearly defined end points.

Careful, Duty will have none of this logic. He knew exactly what he was voting for, as did all Leave voters. They all knew it would end up exactly this way. They all knew what "WTO terms" means. They all knew that we didn't hold all of the cards.

Brexit was always going to have to be defined at some point. The sensible thing would have been to have defined it at the outset, but so much for that.

It's not enough to decide you want to go on holiday and get on a plane. You need to choose a destination. You've got to land somewhere.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Brexit was always going to have to be defined at some point. The sensible thing would have been to have defined it at the outset, but so much for that.

It's not enough to decide you want to go on holiday and get on a plane. You need to choose a destination. You've got to land somewhere.

Nice analogy, Lucky. You think you're heading for Lanzarote... but end up touching down in Liberia. Uh oh!

I'd quite like to know where the plane's going to be landing, given that I voted for a staycation in the first place!

British Steel has officially collapsed into liquidation. Mark that up as a win for the Leave side.

Pal Joey wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Brexit was always going to have to be defined at some point. The sensible thing would have been to have defined it at the outset, but so much for that.

It's not enough to decide you want to go on holiday and get on a plane. You need to choose a destination. You've got to land somewhere.

Nice analogy, Lucky. You think you're heading for Lanzarote... but end up touching down in Liberia. Uh oh!

Is this a RyanAir sort of Brexit then?

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pal Joey wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Brexit was always going to have to be defined at some point. The sensible thing would have been to have defined it at the outset, but so much for that.

It's not enough to decide you want to go on holiday and get on a plane. You need to choose a destination. You've got to land somewhere.

Nice analogy, Lucky. You think you're heading for Lanzarote... but end up touching down in Liberia. Uh oh!

Is this a RyanAir sort of Brexit then?

More of a Monarch kind of Brexit. Was touted to be strong but then everyone realised that it was just an empty husk, devoid of any real value.

Samo wrote:British Steel has officially collapsed into liquidation. Mark that up as a win for the Leave side.

3000 jobs at risk in Scunthorpe. 68% of Scunthorpe voted to leave

Final poll..IPSOS Mori

Brex 35
Lib 20
Lab 15
Green 10
Con 9

May not the only one dead if this poll comes true.

Question: Which party should I vote for in the EU elections if I want to declare my desire for
a) a second referendum
b) a confirmatory referendum (following final leaving agreement)

My own view is that Britain is not in a good position to leave the EU and that the entire debate has been a shambles on BOTH sides.

Ps - it looks like I will have to vote Lib Dem?

ps When remainers constantly attack brexiters for being racist, stupid etc that will only make them firmer and stronger in their desire to leave the EU.  So as a tactic it is extraordinarily counterproductive.

No name Bertie wrote:Question: Which party should I vote for in the EU elections if I want to declare my desire for
a) a second referendum
b) a confirmatory referendum (following final leaving agreement)

My own view is that Britain is not in a good position to leave the EU and that the entire debate has been a shambles on BOTH sides.

Ps - it looks like I will have to vote Lib Dem?

Lib Dem, Green or Change, I think. Possibly Labour, but you never know where you are with them!

I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

I think one of the mistakes some leavers continue to make is to generalise that remainers reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

JuliusHMarx wrote:I think one of the mistakes some leavers continue to make is to generalise that remainers reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

Your denialism is noted.

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

You are using the playground tactic of refusing to accept or acknowledge critique.  A refusal to engage.

No name Bertie wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

You are using the playground tactic of refusing to accept or acknowledge critique.  A refusal to engage.

Please explain which part of your original post is not stereotyping.

Only Duty281 answered my question. Only Duty281 brought something substantive following my question. The other responses are all examples of what I described - that brings nothing substantive to the issue and engaging only in various forms of childish denialism, avoidance, division.

Duty answered your question with the obvious answer. Why does anyone else need repeat the answer?

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

After 3 years I am yet to see any valid arguments. Most of the actual causes of grief go back to the actions of our own government. All they have done is blamed the EU for their own failings.

I am not saying there are no valid arguments, but assuming there are there is no evidence that the current government or its supporters have any clue how to make it happen. I would have had more faith had the government approached Brexit with the slightest degree of competence, but any chance they have had to take the wrong path, they have done so, right from launching article 50 with no plan, no due diligence and no idea.

There has also been a massive failure by the 'Brexit' side to engage with the rest of the population. The referendum was always just the start of a very complex process not the end.

As for British Steel, they themselves are blaming Brexit and with it a drop of sales to Europe. Of course it is not going to be the only reason and that industry has long been in decline, which makes pumping money in without a clear plan of how it might stand on its own feet a dumb idea. But Brexit has played its part, just like with Honda pulling out of Swindon.

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

Not any more, not for some time. Tata still own parts, including Port Talbot. The bit going to the wall is owned by venture capitalists - Greybull Capital LLP - who looking at their Wikipedia page seem to specialise in buying up and then failing to save struggling UK companies.

No name Bertie wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

You are using the playground tactic of refusing to accept or acknowledge critique.  A refusal to engage.

No. I'm pointing out that you're a hypocrite. No need to thank me; consider it a learning opportunity.

To avoid you spitting the dummy again, and to 'engage', I agree with your premise that calling all Brexiteers racists etc helps very little and entrenches positions. You're still exhibiting the same trait, however, by tarring all Remainers as people who throw insults at Brexiteers. Quite funny really...

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:I think the mistake remainers continue to make is to turn this issue into a claimed moral issue.  Remainers good.   Brexiters bad.  Remainers smart.  Brexiters stupid.  Remainers morally virtuous.  Brexiters morally repugnant.

Also remainers refuse to accept that brexiters have valid arguments.  They refuse to accept the matter is complex, they refuse to accept there are issues with the EU project, they refuse to accept the argument of sovereignty.  Instead they reduce it to a "good versus evil" or "a smart vs stupid" issue.

The claim that British Steel (actually owned by an Indian company) financial difficulties is totally due to Brexit is just another example of simplistic thinking.

Now it's you that's stereotyping...

You are using the playground tactic of refusing to accept or acknowledge critique.  A refusal to engage.

No. I'm pointing out that you're a hypocrite. No need to thank me; consider it a learning opportunity.

To avoid you spitting the dummy again, and to 'engage', I agree with your premise that calling all Brexiteers racists etc helps very little and entrenches positions. You're still exhibiting the same trait, however, by tarring all Remainers as people who throw insults at Brexiteers. Quite funny really...

As the line goes - not all brexiteers are racists, but practically all racists will be brexiteers..