Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:So a good day for the Prime Minister, at last. Motion carried and some pesky amendments defeated.

Yes folks a good day for the PM is telling the Country over 50 times in the Commons the UK is leaving on the 29th March and then winning an extension..

What a low bar..

You know, Julius.... in another world, we could be friends you and I...

.... not in this one! But in another one.... when the Clone wars are finished.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A lie can never be true though, Fly. Nor can the truth be a lie. It's either one or the other.

This is what fact-checking is for: to expose lies. We're not talking about opinion.

Correct.  A lie can never be true.  Truth is truth.  

Facts however can be manipulated to tell a version of the truth.  Happens all the time in the legal setting of a courtroom.  Sometimes a prosecution sticks to the facts and still ends up losing the case because a defence can show that facts have been placed into a certain context to twist an overall view into an inaccurate picture of an overriding truth.  Facts are dangerous little basterdes in isolation and when used selectively.
Now before the army rushes in.... OF COURSE that means that Brexiteers can be guilty of manipulating facts to mould an untruthful argument.  But the same is true for Remainers.  Facts manipulated for political gain.  Politicians guilty of it, journalists guilty of it, social media tappers (us) guilty of it.

And we're back to my ever repeating point, the inevitability of bias.  We all got it... including fact checker using journalists.

Again, you're missing (perhaps intentionally) what fact-checking is.

If someone, Leaver or Remainer, goes on TV, and uses facts selectively, there's nothing to flag up. He's used facts.

But when he says something that's just plain untrue? Ding-ding-ding!

So the untruths.

?

Eh?

Untruths.  Has every side in the debate told them over the years, months, days whatever?

Untruths that are fact checkable as distinct from untruths that push a political narrative and can't be fact checked as only the future knows what's in it?

Have all sides been guilty of fact checkable untruths  - or yet again, is it only the side that is most vocally despised in mainstream media outlets (Leavers) that are yet again the only ones guilty of yet again being naughty and bad?

I don't know - I'd have to check!

So Mr Red October, Jeremy Corbyn, has asked that an unelected politburo 'Civil Servant' should disallow a No Deal EU exit by an elected Leader of an elected majority governing party (an act that would finally respect the Democratic wish of the majority of UK subjects in a legal referendum) .... because all that nasty democratic stuff would be considered by Jeremy to be undemocratic?

Jeremy, the only undemocratic stuff going on around you in recent months is that the UK is still in the EU when it should be legally out by now if you politicians followed the democratic wish of the people.

The One World pseudo-socialist control freaks are in meltdown worldwide.  They've given up pretending to be normal human beings.  They're trying to rush through their agenda now in speed-dial panic, from potential bans on meat eating to potential child voting.  Anything to stop the fightback against their 'Utopian' nightmare dream.

For more proof on inmates outside an asylum, just check out a recent Democratic Socialist Convention in the US.  Warning, these people are the future/present teachers or our kids, our future scientific and tech visionaries and some of them, God forbid, are even maybe future political leaders. It's a whacky world... on speed.

We'd be out of the EU by now if the ERG hadn't voted against the withdrawal agreement. Shame on the ERG for not respecting the will of the people!

Mark Francois of the ERG has since said that they wouldn't vote for the withdrawal agreement even if the backstop was removed. Who's the 'enemy of the people' now?

I'll say again (because why not): the government has a duty to all of us, regardless of how we voted - it was a narrow majority - to make leaving the EU as pain-free as possible. It should take as long as it takes to get it right. Doesn't the country deserve that?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
I'll say again (because why not): the government has a duty to all of us, regardless of how we voted - it was a narrow majority - to make leaving the EU as pain-free as possible. It should take as long as it takes to get it right. Doesn't the country deserve that?

And I'll say again that if you voted Conservative but a Labour government was elected, there would be no talk of respecting your vote by having another instant election before the Labour government obtained power and governed for its term. It's called waiting your turn. Governments rule by mandate not by appealing equally to people that didn't/wouldn't vote for them.
The people by vote mandated to Leave.

I'm not disputing that. But remind me, were they promised a no-deal Brexit back in 2016, or were they promised the easiest deal in human history? No downside, only a considerable upside?

Isn't it probable that a fair number of those who voted leave took at face value those promises of a beneficial Brexit?

Isn't it fair to say that leaving with no deal is quite a different prospect?

Should we say to those voters, 'well f*ck you, too late, we're leaving with no deal anyway'?

Man: "I'd like a BJ please"

Woman: "Ok, no problem."

Man: "Ok, great. Let's do it."

Woman: "No problem, it'll be given by a piranha."

Man: "Wait, I don't want that."

Woman: "But it's what you asked for."

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But remind me, were they promised a no-deal Brexit back in 2016, or were they promised the easiest deal in human history?

Neither.

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But remind me, were they promised a no-deal Brexit back in 2016, or were they promised the easiest deal in human history?

Neither.

An easy deal then?

Even Gove has said "We weren't campaigning for a no deal Brexit". So there's no reason to believe there is any sort of majority that voted for it.

If Gove says something then it's gotta be Gospel, innit! The man who now is obedient servant to the man he said was unfit for Prime Minister.

Well, me grand man, Gove...you mightn't have voted for a No Deal Brexit....indeed, you mightn't have voted for Brexit at all.... nod nod, wink, wink.... (evidence or your ready duplicitousness already abundant). but you are you and the vast majority of the Brexit voters didn't campaign at all.... they just voted to Leave.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We'd be out of the EU by now if the ERG hadn't voted against the withdrawal agreement. Shame on the ERG for not respecting the will of the people!

Mark Francois of the ERG has since said that they wouldn't vote for the withdrawal agreement even if the backstop was removed. Who's the 'enemy of the people' now?

I'll say again (because why not): the government has a duty to all of us, regardless of how we voted - it was a narrow majority - to make leaving the EU as pain-free as possible. It should take as long as it takes to get it right. Doesn't the country deserve that?

Surely true ? I confess I cannot fathom precisely what the ERG really think they can achieve by taking the nuclear option ...though I guess they currently look a strong chance to get what they want by default ; but they surely can't claim to have a clear mandate for their mission...
Not to absolve those on the other side of the argument : had either side been prepared to compromise the deed would be done by now ...under the flawed , but likely superior to the crash-out option , of the May deal.

Still time for sanity to prevail but damned if I can see a path...

If Johnson is unable to make changes to the Withdrawal Agreement that enable it to pass the Commons before the 31st October, what should he do?

No Deal - 46%
Cancel Brexit - 29%
Delay Brexit - 12%
Don't Know - 12%

(Opinium/Observer)

Duty281 wrote:If Johnson is unable to make changes to the Withdrawal Agreement that enable it to pass the Commons before the 31st October, what should he do?

No Deal - 46%
Cancel Brexit - 29%
Delay Brexit - 12%
Don't Know - 12%

(Opinium/Observer)

Johnson hasn't tried to make any changes.

Well he's demanded that the EU remove the backstop that he hated so much he voted for it, does that count?

He's demanded that knowing full-well that they've already repeatedly stated that it's not up for negotiation.

He's purposefully prevaricating to increase the chance of no deal.

It is amusing to see the argument made that the EU is suddenly being unreasonable, when they've said consistently for months that there's no renegotiation to be had.

It's all for show, for domestic consumption - but the rest of the world sees it too, and it's embarrassing.

How can this government expect to be taken seriously in negotiations for further deals?

Johnson's modus operandi has always been No Deal Brexit. Now he is bidding to make the EU look unreasonable and try to persuade/turn MPs against the EU by driving a wedge in there. The EU said months ago after agreeing the terms of May Deal and then being open to it already being tweaked a bit that there would be no more alterations. Seems fair enough to me. The Tories got a second chance to renegotiate and blew it.

I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

But what kind of idiot thinks that no deal is a good idea?

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he thinks what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he things what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

Yet he's found himself exactly where he wants to be, I think some underestimate him.

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

I've heard this theory mooted before, but I don't quite get what happens if he wins a majority; does he do an about turn and declare that he's against no deal? Does he think people will forget the promises he's made, the deadlines he's set for himself?

he goes back to the EU with a mandate to re negotiate I imagine

this is all about setting other people up as the fall guy, be it parliament blocking no deal or the eu not negotiating

But he's painted himself into a corner with this '31st October do or die' stuff. Does he think the ERG won't mind if he goes back on his word? That Farage will just shrug and toddle off into the sunset?

I honestly don't know what the strategy is, unless it's to win an election and then think about the rest afterwards.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he thinks what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

This is the bloke who wrote two separate articles before he decided whether to campaign for Leave or Remain - Boris wants what is best for Boris. Whether that circle overlaps with needing to Leave with No Deal or not I don’t know. But I disagree with ‘at all costs’, especially if that cost is damage to him as PM.

if parliament forces him to ask for an extension he'll use that as a shield

JDizzle wrote:This is the bloke who wrote two separate articles before he decided whether to campaign for Leave or Remain - Boris wants what is best for Boris. Whether that circle overlaps with needing to Leave with No Deal or not I don’t know. But I disagree with ‘at all costs’, especially if that cost is damage to him as PM.

Exactly.

JDizzle wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he thinks what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

This is the bloke who wrote two separate articles before he decided whether to campaign for Leave or Remain - Boris wants what is best for Boris. Whether that circle overlaps with needing to Leave with No Deal or not I don’t know. But I disagree with ‘at all costs’, especially if that cost is damage to him as PM.

And the bloke who constantly voted against May's Deal which could have brought about Brexit already. He rabidly roused rebels to sabotage May's Deal and yet now would have us believe he'd sooner leave with a deal. No I don't buy it.

He is totally clueless. It was really funny having a junior minister in Rory Stewart pin him to the masts in the leadership debates. When Stewart asked him how he'd get goods through at the Irish Border, BJ said they use a law in place at the moment to which Stewart told him that law would only remain if a deal was struck. Embarrassing.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he thinks what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

This is the bloke who wrote two separate articles before he decided whether to campaign for Leave or Remain - Boris wants what is best for Boris. Whether that circle overlaps with needing to Leave with No Deal or not I don’t know. But I disagree with ‘at all costs’, especially if that cost is damage to him as PM.

And the bloke who constantly voted against May's Deal which could have brought about Brexit already. He rabidly roused rebels to sabotage May's Deal and yet now would have us believe he'd sooner leave with a deal. No I don't buy it.

He is totally clueless. It was really funny having a junior minister in Rory Stewart pin him to the masts in the leadership debates. When Stewart asked him how he'd get goods through at the Irish Border, BJ said they use a law in place at the moment to which Stewart told him that law would only remain if a deal was struck. Embarrassing.

And how would BJ supporting Theresa’s deal help him? Making her look like a success and a great negotiator means a longer time that he isn’t PM for. I refuse to believe he has any principles attached to anything.

GSC wrote:he goes back to the EU with a mandate to re negotiate I imagine

this is all about setting other people up as the fall guy,  be it parliament blocking no deal or the eu not negotiating

EU know that all the No deal analysis looks dreadful for the UK...

Like playing Poker when I already know what is in your hand..

CaledonianCraig wrote:And the bloke who constantly voted against May's Deal

He voted for it on the third occasion.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And the bloke who constantly voted against May's Deal

He voted for it on the third occasion.

As a total token gesture when he was uber confident it would never be passed.

[quote="JDizzle"]

CaledonianCraig wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:I dont even think boris wants no deal, I suspect hes entertaining it publically so parliament shoots it down and he can use it as a rallying cause in a GE

Boris wants out of the EU at all costs and if that means a No Deal sobeit. He lives in a delusional world where he thinks what he wants he can get. He's already been proven wrong so many times in the last few weeks it is unreal both in the leadership campaign and by interviewees.

This is the bloke who wrote two separate articles before he decided whether to campaign for Leave or Remain - Boris wants what is best for Boris. Whether that circle overlaps with needing to Leave with No Deal or not I don’t know. But I disagree with ‘at all costs’, especially if that cost is damage to him as PM.

And the bloke who constantly voted against May's Deal which could have brought about Brexit already. He rabidly roused rebels to sabotage May's Deal and yet now would have us believe he'd sooner leave with a deal. No I don't buy it.

He is totally clueless. It was really funny having a junior minister in Rory Stewart pin him to the masts in the leadership debates. When Stewart asked him how he'd get goods through at the Irish Border, BJ said they use a law in place at the moment to which Stewart told him that law would only remain if a deal was struck. Embarrassing.

[/quote I refuse to believe he has any principles attached to anything.

Yes I agree with that. And bearing that in mind he is a recipe fot disaster as long as he is allowed to remain PM.

Genuinely puzzled by the these No Deal enthusiasts...

People wanting out of the EU I can handle : I think they are unwise , but opinions are just that. But actively seeking to crash out with all the hazards that implies ? When some kind of a deal is surely possible with a modicum of cooperation between all parties ?

Some , I suppose , truly believe that Britain can thumb its nose at the huge nearby trading bloc and waltz serenely into a new Golden Age , brushing aside any irritating minor issues like the Irish border ...and some presumably don't care as long as they can guarantee themselves positions of power for the next five years ...

So we have fools and knaves at least...any advance on that ?

You've forgotten the disaster capitalists who are the real architects. The rest are too stupid to realise they are being used

Watching news items things strike home of the dangers of No Deal Brexit. Welsh Lamb according to Welsh farmers sees 75% of their produce sold to the EU.

alfie wrote:Genuinely puzzled by the these No Deal enthusiasts...

People wanting out of the EU I can handle

'No Deal' is the only way out of the EU, at present. Theresa May's withdrawal agreement is not Brexit and, in any case, has next to zero chance of being passed through Parliament anyway.

It's no deal or stay in.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Watching news items things strike home of the dangers of No Deal Brexit. Welsh Lamb according to Welsh farmers sees 75% of their produce sold to the EU.

I wonder whether the Welsh voted to leave or remain... turkeys and Christmas

Speaker has said he won't let Johnson suspend Parliament and this Parliament won't let No deal happen..

Only way around it...Is a GE.

As he is pretending to chuck money around my guess is he wants one.

GE or bust for Boris...

His 9 point lead with Yougov which is his biggest lead...

Shows 31 gains from Labour....Same Yougov poll shows 10 losses to the SNP and 20 to the Lib Dems..

Be a gamble..

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:Genuinely puzzled by the these No Deal enthusiasts...

People wanting out of the EU I can handle

'No Deal' is the only way out of the EU, at present. Theresa May's withdrawal agreement is not Brexit and, in any case, has next to zero chance of being passed through Parliament anyway.

It's no deal or stay in.

May's deal is a transitional agreement. It's not the finished product. You're aware of that, though.

And even if no deal is the only way out right now, do you still think it's a good idea? Would you still go ahead with it and cut Britain's nose off to spite its face?

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:Genuinely puzzled by the these No Deal enthusiasts...

People wanting out of the EU I can handle

'No Deal' is the only way out of the EU, at present. Theresa May's withdrawal agreement is not Brexit and, in any case, has next to zero chance of being passed through Parliament anyway.

It's no deal or stay in.

Anything that means we're no longer a member state of the EU is Brexit.

Johnson got 66% against Hunt by pushing No deal...

Anything remotely resembling a May deal is awkward for him..

Custom's Union...Single Market...and other concessions etc etc isn't acceptable to loonies..

They still think Brittania rules the waves..

Look at that Mark Francois..

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:Genuinely puzzled by the these No Deal enthusiasts...

People wanting out of the EU I can handle

'No Deal' is the only way out of the EU, at present. Theresa May's withdrawal agreement is not Brexit and, in any case, has next to zero chance of being passed through Parliament anyway.

It's no deal or stay in.

Anything that means we're no longer a member state of the EU is Brexit.

How does this still need explaining? It was exactly what brexiters voted for.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Johnson got 66% against Hunt by pushing No deal...

Anything remotely resembling a May deal is awkward for him..

Custom's Union...Single Market...and other concessions etc etc isn't acceptable to loonies..

They still think Brittania rules the waves..

Look at that Mark Francois..

I'd rather not; utter moron.