England World Cup Warm Ups

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England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.

LondonTiger wrote:Indeed there is nothing to stop you having all three of the bench front rowers from the same position. However should tehre be an injury they have to then come on and play the requisite position.

Even if Eddie chooses to name a series of injured players and standbys, we will know how he plans to structure his squad come the announcement.

My interest is piqued by the prospect of 2 SHs. With Ford perhaps covering the position in an emergency could explain the continued presence of Francis and perhaps see him make the 31.

He had that 10 cover from Slade though, I think Francis is more to do with Te'o falling out of favour.

I guess the first injury he'll start the fit 9 and Farrell with Ford on the bench. If Francis or Slade is starting he'll go with an extra centre to ensure he has that halfback cover. It gets more dicey if he has two injuries in those positions, but unless you load with specialists then you can't legislate for everything.

There's a lot of talk stating moving THs to LHs but both are very different (other than both being called props). Admittedly I only played at school a LONG time ago, but I played in every front row position and the two prop positions require different techniques to the other.

Asking a LH to "cover" TH and vice versa should only really be used in an emergency in my opinion.

Mr Bounce wrote:There's a lot of talk stating moving THs to LHs but both are very different (other than both being called props). Admittedly I only played at school a LONG time ago, but I played in every front row position and the two prop positions require different techniques to the other.

Asking a LH to "cover" TH and vice versa should only really be used in an emergency in my opinion.

Which this would be. But you'd assume if it was a possibility you'd do some training there, and when it became a probability you'd do more training there. It would only be from the bench, you might not get on, and if you do it's only going to be for a few scrums.

Squad in full
England Rugby World Cup squad announcement
Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons / Sale Sharks, 13 caps)
Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

So just the two tight heads, Ludlam ahead of Shields, and no Te'o; Francis instead.

Is McConnochie the only uncapped player ever to get into a RWC squad??

Rinsure wrote:So just the two tight heads, Ludlam ahead of Shields, and no Te'o; Francis instead.

Is McConnochie the only uncapped player ever to get into a RWC squad??

 He will be capped by the official date to name the squad.

Rinsure wrote:So just the two tight heads, Ludlam ahead of Shields, and no Te'o; Francis instead.

Is McConnochie the only uncapped player ever to get into a RWC squad??

Good question. I guess it depends on the definition.

I'm sure he'll be capped before the tournament starts and there will have been injury replacements to make their debuts at the tournament. But for players named in initial rugby world cup squads before their debut, there probably haven't been many.

The caveat to this is that Eddie probably won't formally submit his squad and could still change it without penalty (i.e. if someone gets injured).

Rinsure wrote:So just the two tight heads, Ludlam ahead of Shields, and no Te'o; Francis instead.

Is McConnochie the only uncapped player ever to get into a RWC squad??

I presume Francis has some incriminating photos of Jones stashed away in order to have made the squad. Personally I'd have sacrificed him for the additional tighthead.

robbo277 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Decision 1: Cole and Williams as the 2nd tighthead. Both got good game in contrast to the other front rowers - one final audition?
Decision 2: Shields and Ludlam as the 4th flanker. Shields would have been clear favourite until Ludlam's performance today. Did he do enough? But as above, Ludlum will be on standby in any event.
Decision 3: Who the 4th centre is going to be. If Te'o has blotted his copybook then it could be Francis, although he wasn't extraordinary today and might have his own injury concerns. Someone will mention Cipriani, but I'd be surprised.

The 28 who I think are in are:

Mako, Marler, Genge
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Sinckler, *Decision 1 above*
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury
Wilson, Underhill, Curry, *Decision 2 above*
Billy
Youngs, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, *Decision 3 above*
May, Watson, Cokanasiga, Nowell* (with a player called in on standby)
Daly

This is only 30 players and I'm an idiot. I'd potentially be looking at a 6th back row, so maybe Shields and Ludlam both making it, rather than a 3rd tighthead or a 5th centre.

EDIT: The other option that Eddie may take is one of Shields/Ludlam with a 5th second row in Ewels (who didn't look out of place on Sunday) and Lawes covering 6. Not what I would do, but don't rule it out.

So off the back of this we've got Cole over Williams, Ludlam over Shields and Francis as the 4th centre. Instead of an extra back row, Jones has plumped for the extra back three player in McConnochie.

I'd suggest however that if Nowell doesn't come through we might even see the balance of the squad shifted. Unless Jones calls up Brown, I don't think there's another back 3 player worthy of a place and Jones might review his options elsewhere.

Rinsure wrote:So just the two tight heads, Ludlam ahead of Shields, and no Te'o; Francis instead.

Is McConnochie the only uncapped player ever to get into a RWC squad??

French scrum half in 2011, Jean-Marc Doussain, got his first (maybe only) cap in the World Cup final, coming off the bench.

McConnochie must have been ripping it up in training. (same for Singleton to have been picked over the likes of Dunn)
I feel Francis might be a bit lucky there - although yesterday was the best game I've seen from him in an England shirt.
I also wonder if Teo proposing a move abroad may have also influenced his non-selection for the squad.

Unfortunate for Ewells as like Francis I thought yesterday was one of his better games - but it was always a massive ask to break into selection in that position.

Good to see that most of the guys carrying injuries are also included so I presume they are all relatively minor niggles.

So, are there any place holders to be called up for the injured Nowell, and maybe, Curry and Underhill. If Curry and Underhill are not fit for Saturday, we have Wilson Ludlam and Lawes as a back row? I cannot see him risking Billy twice in 6 days.

fkaS, Francis was okay on Sunday, nothing outstanding offensively, but very solid in defense and laid off some nice passes. Checked on the scores in two respected broadsheets, both gave him a 7 which is one more than JJ who only got 6s as he has forgotten how to pass the ball.

Genuinely concerned we're going into this without a specialist 15.

Was expecting Brown to be in there, despite the various stories about him and Te'o. Given Goode was never there or thereabouts, and Brown has been excellent, I will admit to being surprised.

As Robbo says, there might still be the option if Nowell doesn't recover, though.

LH (3) - Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *, Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Hooker (3) - Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *, Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
TH (2) - Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps),
Lock (4) - Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps), George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *, Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *, Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Flanker (4) - Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons / Sale Sharks, 13 caps), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
No 8 (1) - Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *

Scrum Half (2) - Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **, Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Fly half (2) - Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *, George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Centre (4) - Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *, Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *,
Wings - (5) Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *, Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *, Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *, Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped),
"Fullback" (<1) - Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)

Some bold choices there. Only two TH, SH, FH. Only one No 8. Less than one fullback, albeit with 4 players who have played the position part time.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:So, are there any place holders to be called up for the injured Nowell, and maybe, Curry and Underhill. If Curry and Underhill are not fit for Saturday, we have Wilson Ludlam and Lawes as a back row? I cannot see him risking Billy twice in 6 days.

fkaS, Francis was okay on Sunday, nothing outstanding offensively, but very solid in defense and laid off some nice passes. Checked on the scores in two respected broadsheets, both gave him a 7 which is one more than JJ who only got 6s as he has forgotten how to pass the ball.

I don't think we need the cover for Nowell really with McConnochie named. As before, I think we'll see May and McConnochie start on the wings with Watson getting a run at full back, as that's an option we'll need to see tested.

If Curry and Underhill are both carrying injuries then it's a bit of a worry, especially as the likely reserve Shields is carrying a knock. We could go Lawes, Ludlam, Wilson with Vunipola on the bench, but doesn't have many other options short of having Singleton covering back row or similar.

I do not think it is right to name players in the squad who are not fully fit before the tournament starts. What happens if these players do not get fit in time. can other players be called up?

Could there still be a small chance for the likes of Mike Brown/ Ben teo? if Knowell is not fit enough in time.

So, personal pick for next weekend would be to mix things up a bit more (injury permitting)

Marler, Singleton, Sinkler
Kruis, Itoje
Ludlam, Underhill, Wilson
Youngs
Farrell, McConnochie, Manu T, Slade, May, Watson

Genge, George, Cole, Launchbury, Curry, Heinz, joseph, Cockanasinga

Just gives a few guys a bit more gametime that might need it - Ludlam/Singleton/Joseph and then a fresh run out for the rest of the squad.

Itoje also covers 6, depending on the makeup of the pack, and Launch was touted as a 6 for a while (although I think that was pretty short lived). So I presume that's the additional back row cover.

Aside from Cokanasiga, Nowell and May, of course

Pretty happy with that, we more or less agreed on the vast majority of the squad so it was the borderline decisions.

Great to see Ludlam rewarded, I was pretty sure that Shields would have kept his shot but Ludlam looked better yesterday. I know nothing about McConnochie, but he's clearly impressed to get into the squad without playing a game, will be one I'll keep an eye on this weekend

I don't know if it was correct but in the pre-match run through of the players, they had Ewels at 17 stone, too light for an international lock, probably too light for a 6 these days unless you have a Curry / Underhill type combo.

I didn't realise that the Curry brothers do not come from "uppp North" but were born in London and schooled in Cheshire before coming half way back down south and going to Oundle School where ex Saints player and their uncle John Olver is now head coach.

So six players born outside of England I think - Underhill, 2*Vunipola, Manu, Cokanasiga and Heinz. The bald kiwi being the only real import though. 

Where they "developed":

Leicester 4 - Cole, Youngs, Ford, Manu
Exeter 3 - LCD, Slade, Nowell
Sale 1 - Curry
Bristol 2 - Genge, Mako
Saracens 6 - George, Itoje, Kruis*, Singleton, Farrell, Francis**
Wasps 3 - Launchbury***, BillyV, Daly
Northampton 2 - Lawes, Ludlum
Harlequins 2 - Marler, Sinckler
Gloucester 2 - Underhill, May
Newcastle 1 - Wilson
London Irish 3 - Cokanasiga, Joseph, Watson

Other 2 - Heinz (NZ), McConnochie (7s)


*Kruis was rejected by Quins
**Francis was cut by Sarries at 18
***Launchbury was cut by Quins at 18

Bath and Worcester the only Premiership sides not to have a player selected that came through their academy. Worcester also have no player in the squad (Bath have 5)

It is a pretty big slap in the face for Harry Williams, Ben Spencer, etc - you aren't even worth taking as a third choice. there seems to be plenty of options in the second row, back row and out in the backs, but it can't be ideal that our tightheads and scrum halfs will essentially be preparing 100% for every practice session and every game on the basis they will either be starting or could have to come on after 1 minute of a game.

Quins have a habit it seems of rejecting decent 2nd row prospects!

With 3 games to go this squad will change.

Sharkey06 wrote:It is a pretty big slap in the face for Harry Williams, Ben Spencer, etc - you aren't even worth taking as a third choice.  there seems to be plenty of options in the second row, back row and out in the backs, but it can't be ideal that our tightheads and scrum halfs will essentially be preparing 100% for every practice session and every game on the basis they will either be starting or could have to come on after 1 minute of a game.

Even Ben Moon - who had a decent 6N on a personal level.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Ludlam got cut by Saints, went away, worked hard then got picked up by them again. He seems a pretty special lad.

Rinsure wrote:Itoje also covers 6, depending on the makeup of the pack, and Launch was touted as a 6 for a while (although I think that was pretty short lived). So I presume that's the additional back row cover.

Aside from Cokanasiga, Nowell and May, of course

Cokanasiga could probably cover from 4 - 8, he has the size

I have only seen McConnochie in a couple of games, very much the "will of the wisp" type, 6'3" and only 14.5 stone, blistering acceleration and a squirmy sort of player that is difficult to get hold of. There must be some Bath supporters on here that can enlighten us.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Cokanasiga could probably cover from 4 - 8, he has the size

I'm sure he packed down at 8 in one scrum in one of the 6N games. Billy stood in the centre and took a crash ball up. Can't remember which game it was though.

Rinsure wrote:I'm sure I read somewhere that Ludlam got cut by Saints, went away, worked hard then got picked up by them again. He seems a pretty special lad.

He got very close to not having his contract renewed, only made 3 appearances in 16/17, 4 in 17/18 but something happened late in 2018 and he was suddenly a different player, played in 24 games most in 2019 and made the shirt his own. Not bad when competing with Tom Wood and Jamie Gibson

propdavid_london wrote:Quins have a habit it seems of rejecting decent 2nd row prospects!

I was sat behind George Kruis's uncle yesterday - apparently we turned him down, too!

Poorfour wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Quins have a habit it seems of rejecting decent 2nd row prospects!

I was sat behind George Kruis's uncle yesterday - apparently we turned him down, too!

Hence my comment earlier

By all accounts he was a late developer but was in a successful school side as well as Dorking age grade but ignored by Quins so his teacher apparently knew Nigel Wray.

Rinsure wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Cokanasiga could probably cover from 4 - 8, he has the size

I'm sure he packed down at 8 in one scrum in one of the 6N games. Billy stood in the centre and took a crash ball up. Can't remember which game it was though.

Italy. I think they wanted Cokanasiga to attack the blindside with an 8 pick but Italy marked it so they went to Billy crashing through helpless inside backs. Otherwise you'd probably put Joe in at 6 and Wilson at 8 for the additional control.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Rinsure wrote:I'm sure I read somewhere that Ludlam got cut by Saints, went away, worked hard then got picked up by them again. He seems a pretty special lad.

He got very close to not having his contract renewed, only made 3 appearances in 16/17, 4 in 17/18 but something happened late in 2018 and he was suddenly a different player, played in 24 games most in 2019 and made the shirt his own. Not bad when competing with Tom Wood and Jamie Gibson

I remember watching him in the u20s and he looked very good, thought he was one who didn't quite step up but he's certainly made his mark this season, its great to see

Terrible news for Anscombe, he is out of the RWC with a Anterior Cruciate Ligament injury.

I know it's the wrong thread, but he did get injured against England

Feel for the guy. Biggar to start against us on Saturday then?

I'll be honest, I'm just waiting for an injury to Manu / Billy. It's not like they don't have form...

Rinsure wrote:I'm sure I read somewhere that Ludlam got cut by Saints, went away, worked hard then got picked up by them again. He seems a pretty special lad.

Thats the same as our young winger Adam Radwan, who i expect to be tearing it up in the championpship and the prem the season after. I think it shows mental strength which Ludlum clearly has, and thats a trait that Eddie Jones has consitently desired in his players.

Sharkey06 wrote:It is a pretty big slap in the face for Harry Williams, Ben Spencer, etc - you aren't even worth taking as a third choice.  there seems to be plenty of options in the second row, back row and out in the backs, but it can't be ideal that our tightheads and scrum halfs will essentially be preparing 100% for every practice session and every game on the basis they will either be starting or could have to come on after 1 minute of a game.

They'll understand the harsh reality of selecting just 31 players. Williams is a shock admission, I was certain we'd take 6 props. Spencer and Williams et al will all be training in and around the squad for a while yet you'd assume. Although, as it stands they aren't going, injuries and numbers in training will still be required.

TightHEAD wrote:With 3 games to go this squad will change.

Yeah thats my thoughts aswell...

Its clear that Jones is more than happy at the thought of lawes or Itoje on the flank.

Concerned with only 2 tight heads mind.

By club:

Sarries ..... 8
Tigers ...... 6
Bath ........ 5
Chiefs ...... 3
Saints ...... 3
Sale ........ 2
Quins ...... 2
Wasps ..... 1
Glaws ...... 1

Given the finishing positions in the league, does it seem that Glaws, Quins and Chiefs are under-represented?

Glad Shields didn't make, he's showed nothing to deserve it.

What a crazy addition McConnochie is, is he that good? Can't recall seeing that much last season tbh.

He is that good.

Rinsure wrote:By club:

Sarries ..... 8
Tigers ...... 6
Bath ........ 5
Chiefs ...... 3
Saints ...... 3
Sale ........ 2
Quins ...... 2
Wasps ..... 1
Glaws ...... 1

Given the finishing positions in the league, does it seem that Glaws, Quins and Chiefs are under-represented?

Who do they offer?

Exeter - Moon, Williams, Simmonds
Gloucester - Morgan, Cipriani, Thorley
Harlequins - Robshaw, Care, Brown

You'd say a couple of them might be unlucky, but I wouldn't say any of those omissions are absolute travesties.

Brown is the most glaring omission. England have not shown that they have got another player who offers that defensive solidity and high ball skills, and it may cost us against teams with a good kicking strategy.

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:By club:

Sarries ..... 8
Tigers ...... 6
Bath ........ 5
Chiefs ...... 3
Saints ...... 3
Sale ........ 2
Quins ...... 2
Wasps ..... 1
Glaws ...... 1

Given the finishing positions in the league, does it seem that Glaws, Quins and Chiefs are under-represented?

Who do they offer?

Exeter - Moon, Williams, Simmonds
Gloucester - Morgan, Cipriani, Thorley
Harlequins - Robshaw, Care, Brown

You'd say a couple of them might be unlucky, but I wouldn't say any of those omissions are absolute travesties.

Oh, I'm not suggesting it's a travesty, just a statistical interest, I guess. You could equally say Tigers appear significantly over-represented.

I'd probably add Armand and Kvesic to the your Chiefs suggestions, Rapava-Ruskin and Woodward to the Glaws list (eligibility question notwithstanding), and Dombrandt, Clifford and Marcus Smith for Quins. All been involved to some level or other, and key figures in their clubs league positions.

I am not suggesting they should have been included, mind you!

Rinsure wrote:By club:

Sarries ..... 8
Tigers ...... 6
Bath ........ 5
Chiefs ...... 3
Saints ...... 3
Sale ........ 21
Quins ...... 2
Wasps ..... 1
Glaws ...... 1
Falcons.....1

Given the finishing positions in the league, does it seem that Glaws, Quins and Chiefs are under-represented?

Fixed that for you...we've only loaned him out for a season...

I find it interesting that Ludlam has managed to leapfrog both Shields and Dombrandt from the initial squad that was named, its a real rise from nowhere

Many of us thought Dombrandt would be a better option than Shields due to his cover of 8 and strong carrying game, but Eddie seems set on having Wilson as the 8 cover and has picked another strong breakdown flanker instead of Shields

i think Ludlum is a carrier aswell Bam...seems an all action player.

Didnt see the game, but i kept hearing that he was very strong in defence aswell. Seems the lad had a very good game alround.
Be interesting to see how he copes when Wales find their intensity.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rinsure wrote:By club:
Sale ........ 21
Falcons.....1

Fixed that for you...we've only loaned him out for a season...

Haha, I wondered if you'd pick me up on that

So only Williams, Ewels and Marchant from Saturday didn’t make it? Ah so much for it being a 3rd XV then. Good depth at LH and 2nd row. Surprised Daly is listed as the only full back, so I imagine Watson will be playing there at some point too.