WALES VS ENGLAND - MATCH THREAD - Friendly????

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

WALES VS ENGLAND........................................It deserves a dedicated match thread.

Date: 17th AUG 2019
KO Time: 14:15
Venue: Principality Stadium, Cardiff.

Teams

Wales

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Nicky Smith, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (C); Aaron Wainwright, James Davies, Ross Moriarty.

Subs: Elliot Dee, Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Aaron Shingler, Josh Navidi, Aled Davies, Jarrod Evans, Owen Watkin.

England

England starting XV v Wales
15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
14 Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
12 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
11 Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) C
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps)
7 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps)

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 59 caps)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 33 caps)
20 Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps)
22 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps)
23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps)

Head to head -  Played 133 - England 63 - Wales 58 - Drawn 12

[RDW]

The bickering on here is an absolute embarrassment.

Our patience is well and truly exhausted with this so to make things as clear as possible - if people don't go back to talking about rugby then you'll be getting a 24h break. What usually happens after these messages is people complain about said message, complains that we've not banned anyone, or carries on blaming other people which further derails threads, so if that happens the posts will just get deleted and ultimately the thread will just get locked.

Can't say you've not been warned now!

Now shall we see if people can behave like adults?

[Yoda]

This site might need to close during the world Cup with the children posting on here, grow the **** up!

From a Welsh perspective no1 racked is big deal and a should be acknowledged. Any NH team at no1 is unusual so

From the game pretty dire play at times and NZ or sa and perhaps even aus won't be scared at all by that. The ref was sh** for both sides end of argument. Wales will be happy their defense is back England will be happy to test their squad players under some not so usual circumstances, e.g players out of position, injured players coming back strange bence balenced etc. All in all a good work out for us with Jones probably quite happy his squad put in a tough toe to toe slog with a good team away.

Finally well done Biggar for having a good game and sticking his fingers up to his doubters. Why some of his brethren have had a pop at him i don't know, but well played sir.

[RDW]

Prize goes to Yoda for the first rugby based post that hasn't been deleted since my warning!

As I said earlier in the thread I don't understand the criticism of Biggar. It's not like Wales play like the ABs so a controlling, driving 10 is perfect for them and has won them grand slams.

[No 7&1/2]

He limits the potential of the back line would be the obvious criticism.

[Yoda]

Thanks buddy, it really grinds my gears when Rugby incorporates the very worst bits from Wendyball.

Northampron have looked better too this season and I think Biggar has to get credit there too. Thought ball had one of his better carrying games. Ludlum was well marshalled today and Wales lacked ball carrying and did little with their possession. England missed the carrying of vunipola, sinkler, curry, manu et al and again didn't show much imagination despite the lack of ball. Seems both teams only have plan a

[Hoonercat]

Watson deserved the yellow, he knew what he was doing. I don't think the quick-take should have been allowed, but as Wales would very likely have scored had Watson not intervened I'd be hard pressed to argue that England were hard done by. I'm actually pleased with the result, I expected Wales to hammer us today.
Get Lawes back where he belongs please, he's our best lock and plays his socks off every game.

[maestegmafia]

He limits the potential of the back line would be the obvious criticism.

You can counter that with his control and precision though. He has always been a player it’s hard to criticise because he is incredibly effective.

He is unlikely to break from first receiver inside his 22, but he can and does spot opportunities.

That said I am looking forward to seeing Jarrod Evans get a game.

[No 7&1/2]

That is the counter Maes. It's a similar argument to farrell to ford. Personally I feel wales are at their best when its looser. A tight game depends too much on other factors outside their control.

[Collapse2005]

Well done Wales on getting to 1. Both these teams are contenders and good enough to blow away SANZAR sides this year.

Go n-eiri libh.

[maestegmafia]

That is the counter Maes.  It's a similar argument to farrell to ford. Personally I feel wales are at their best when its looser. A tight game depends too much on other factors outside their control.

Throughout the ages all Welshman would agree with you but there does seem to be a modern acceptance in pragmatic control from halfback.

Both Biggar, and more so Gareth Davies can counter fast and seize opportunities when they want to.

As I mentioned above, longer term I feel Evans is the way forward. We often have this conundrum, Dai Watkins or the exuberant Barry John, then John and the more electric Phill Bennett.

I think we are all hoping to see the other 10s in the squad play so that we know what our back up is like.

[Rugby Fan]

I don't think either side showed their full hand on attack, so it's not obvious that they lack the ability to change up their game.

I don't think England or Wales would have been happy to lose this fixture but I think we might have seen more variation if the stakes were higher.

England had no real answer at the breakdown, which was reminiscent of the 2018 Six Nations. At least we know we do have two options in the squad which, when fit, make a difference.

I'm disappointed we let our mauls get disrupted when we had more locks on the pitch.

[Collapse2005]

Love watching Biggar play, such a cool customer.

[maestegmafia]

Love watching Biggar play, such a cool customer.

He has matured gracefully as back up ten to Anscombe. We don’t see the hand waving petulance so much these days.

[Yoda]

I've always thought the Welsh media and ex players have been unfair on your 10s since Neil Jenkins times as they can't replicate the days of Barry John. The game has changed and there's simply less space these days. Wales need the midfield around the 10 as well to change the way they play. I always thought you guys were better with halfpenny at winger Lee Byrne arching a run from the back (now see Liam Williams who is chronically underutilised imo). Am I right in thinking Scott Williams is the crwtive Centre who always made your backline more potent . The Dan Biggar led Northampton scored some great tries and he was flat passing to Hutchinson and Francis in midfield, who were picking some lovely lines. He can play differently, its just with Wales he doesn't have the personnel playing in a particularly creative way.

[Guest]

Yes Yoda, I agree. I’ve posted about this in the past. Biggar at the Ospreys for a number of years was scoring some lovely tries, making loads of breaks, the backs were playing great running rugby. I’ve always thought he’s been playing to a script of some sort for Wales. I’m sure he can play differently.

[maestegmafia]

I don't think either side showed their full hand on attack, so it's not obvious that they lack the ability to change up their game.

I don't think England or Wales would have been happy to lose this fixture but I think we might have seen more variation if the stakes were higher.

England had no real answer at the breakdown, which was reminiscent of the 2018 Six Nations. At least we know we do have two options in the squad which, when fit, make a difference.

I'm disappointed we let our mauls get disrupted when we had more locks on the pitch.

I agree that no one is playing their full hand. This last week has been very much about creating assimilated plays where they want to test themselves far more than test their opposition.

Today Biggar was purposeful in directing the team into a forward based game.


Less dropped balls was a notable improvement but I also felt very confident when the team were taking contact.

If wales had been trying to scorers tried they would have been playing a very different style.

[Yoda]

I think with all the pre world Cup friendlies and the rugby championship games that have passed have only reinforced the top 6 teams (I'm including Scotland in this as have a soft spot for finn Russell) will be tight. I really hope there are a few upsets as the game needs it to get it growing. England and Wales have more to come I'm sure of it and ej is keeping his powder dry. Gats is a fantastic coach, always thought this since his wasps days. How this story pans out is anyone's guess but buckle up its going to be a classic I think.

[Shifty]

I'm pleased that Wales still still to have the capacity and confidence to close out a game against top teams. I'm worried that it only applies in Cardiff though!

[RiscaGame]

Watson deserved the yellow, he knew what he was doing. I don't think the quick-take should have been allowed, but as Wales would very likely have scored had Watson not intervened I'd be hard pressed to argue that England were hard done by. I'm actually pleased with the result, I expected Wales to hammer us today.
Get Lawes back where he belongs please, he's our best lock and plays his socks off every game.

Why did he have to leave via the far touchline anyway?

Im not sure it was a quick take, as the referee seemed to restart play by giving the mark. So the penalty was tapped? That’s what I saw anyway.

[RiscaGame]

I think with all the pre world Cup friendlies and the rugby championship games that have passed have only reinforced the top 6 teams (I'm including Scotland in this as have a soft spot for finn Russell) will be tight. I really hope there are a few upsets as the game needs it to get it growing. England and Wales have more to come I'm sure of it and ej is keeping his powder dry. Gats is a fantastic coach, always thought this since his wasps days. How this story pans out is anyone's guess but buckle up its going to be a classic I think.

Yeah, it’s very interesting. I love the fact this tournament has so many genuine contenders. I think both coaches haven’t shown their hand at all, the past two games.

[RiscaGame]

I am about 55 mins into the game, but I have to say I love Billy Vunipola. Hope he gets to go on the Lions tour in two years. Be lovely to be able to support him. Wales did a better job on him today, but he still has done things of note.

[RiscaGame]

So is “slide down in the tackle to milk the penalty” officially part of the Gatland playbook now?

But players need to get the ball to ground otherwise they’ll be turned over for being held up. They have to ‘slide down’ to reach the ground!

I’ve just seen this. I don’t know how Biggar can be criticised for trying to get knee down and avoid being held up. Nothing to do with milking penalties.

[yappysnap]

Congrats Wales on the no1 spot gents.

The games were to be expected tbh with home wins both weekends. As mentioned both teams probably held a lot back in the games. England may be disappointed not to have scored a try in the second match and Wales will be pleased to have kept them out.

[RiscaGame]

Feel for James Davies as well, by the way. That’s probably going to be his one chance to make the WC squad. Hope he’s okay though.

[Geordie]

Wow what a woeful boring game..

And never in a million years was that a yellow card....or erm..a try!!

[Yoda]

Agreed on the game summary, not the harshest yellow I've been done for less myself. I think Watson knew what he was doing. Soft yes but probably consistent with recent laws.

[Yoda]

Mind you the ref shouldn't have let Biggar tap fairly quickly as heinz was polaxed and Watson was walking off the pitch. Not sure what the exact ruling is but I thought the ref had to stop the clock issue card make sure numbers are right then get time back on, could be wrong.

[TightHEAD]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but my oh my I hope the Reffereeing is better at the RWC, I'm disappointed with the result as I believe you step onto the field to win games but at the end of the day it was only a warm up.

Thought it was a dull game but that was to be expected as no one want to play their hand too soon. What was with all the booing of the kicker? Not once was anything displayed on the screens say respect the kicker, they may be No1 in the world but they are way down on the class list of fans, disappointing behaviour.

[TightHEAD]

Class act by England to walk around clapping all the fans that stayed behind after the game.

[TightHEAD]

Mind you the ref shouldn't have let Biggar tap fairly quickly as heinz was polaxed and Watson was walking off the pitch. Not sure what the exact ruling is but I thought the ref had to stop the clock issue card make sure numbers are right then get time back on, could be wrong.

The Ref clearly felt the pressure of the big occasion and made many mistakes.

Warm up for them too.

[Guest]

Big sesh up the Cross Keys, TightHEAD?

[Yoda]

I'm afraid the reffing won't be any better in some games and I suspect a few controversies like Mr joubert and the Scotland fiasco will be common place. However I do feel for refs as its a bloody difficult game to manage in the middle amplified by canny players and coaches hell bent on bending/breaking the laws. They are human after all and the crowd can be the deiciding factor in many matches due to the hostile reception. As for the silence for kickers at the millennium let's not open that can of worms again. This threads already gone off piste let's not spoil it.

[majesticimperialman]

You all ways know when it was a tough game, when Alan wyn Jones is down on his knees at the end of the game.

But in all fairness it was not the best of game's to be honest.

I truly believe that the try for Wales should not of been allowed due to players leaving the pitch, A( who was yellow carded) b (Player going off for head injury) 

I seem to recall a similar game Wales v England when Wales was suppose to make a substitution and the  player not going off. and Wales having 16 players on the field.

Should not happen in this day and age.

[Pie]

Yeah lost all interest pie. Keep up. As with mikey. Enjoy the moment. Over 2 games you've managed to come a close 2nd. It doesn't get better than this for you. Bask in it.

And lets not forget the 3rd match this year....how did that one go for you lol

[Pie]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but my oh my I hope the Reffereeing is better at the RWC, I'm disappointed with the result as I believe you step onto the field to win games but at the end of the day it was only a warm up.

Thought it was a dull game but that was to be expected as no one want to play their hand too soon. What was with all the booing of the kicker? Not once was anything displayed on the screens say respect the kicker, they may be No1 in the world but they are way down on the class list of fans, disappointing behaviour.

Blah blah blah....still won though! But yes you're right we should set a better example by beating each other up on social events

[Recwatcher16]

I thought Wales played their normal Cardiff style game very well. One of the pundits pointedly asked Gatland afterwards how they could recreate the Cardiff atmosphere in Japan. Gatland fended it off well but he clearly understood the insinuation.

The ref had a poor game in relation to the rules but if the emphasis is to allow players going off their feet, sealing off the ball and not supporting their own weight at the ruck, that's not Wales fault if they get away with it.

England should be concerned that they did not score a try from the backs again but that back row did look too slow and so it proved. The selection for Ireland should be interesting as Ireland play a heavy traffic attritional game and so you would think England would go with another heavy pack along similar lines rather than a more mobile pack but niggly injuries have got in the way.

These so called warm ups are really a money making exercise to make up for the loss of the AI's, but are an interesting side show to the actual event. Wales making the no.1 slot is a good achievement, despite not beating NZ in the last sixty years.

Forgot to add - if Farrell's shoulder had hit AWJ's chin in the same way as Biggar's attempted jump in the air tackle, the indignation on here and elsewhere would reach hysterical proportions.

[TightHEAD]

Wales making the no.1 slot is a good achievement, despite not beating NZ in the last sixty years.

Ah our great grandfathers remember it well.

[Collapse2005]

I would fancy Wales' chances v NZ at the moment

[Pie]

Not sure what pen count was but England had the rub of it, still couldn't capitalize? And why take 3 points on 50 minutes when you're 10 points down....surely a side with confidence would go for the corner then. England however prefer to do that in the last few minutes and it still doesnt fly. Poor leadership and lack of aggression, not exactly brutal.

[majesticimperialman]

I would fancy Wales' chances v NZ at the moment

Dream on boy Dream on.

[TightHEAD]

Home or away?

[RiscaGame]

You all ways know when it was a tough game, when Alan wyn Jones is down on his knees at the end of the game.

But in all fairness it was not the best of game's to be honest.

I truly believe that the try for Wales should not of been allowed due to players leaving the pitch, A( who was yellow carded) b (Player going off for head injury) 

I seem to recall a similar game Wales v England when Wales was suppose to make a substitution and the  player not going off. and Wales having 16 players on the field.

Should not happen in this day and age.

What game was that? England have had 16 on the field that I remember and Ospreys. I can’t remember Wales doing it and would be interested to know when it was.

[majesticimperialman]

You all ways know when it was a tough game, when Alan wyn Jones is down on his knees at the end of the game.

But in all fairness it was not the best of game's to be honest.

I truly believe that the try for Wales should not of been allowed due to players leaving the pitch, A( who was yellow carded) b (Player going off for head injury) 

I seem to recall a similar game Wales v England when Wales was suppose to make a substitution and the  player not going off. and Wales having 16 players on the field.

Should not happen in this day and age.

What game was that? England have had 16 on the field that I remember and Ospreys. I can’t remember Wales doing it and would be interested to know when it was.

I cannot remember the date of the game, i believe it was a 6 nations game when lee byrne was playing at full back.
That is not to say Wales do not deserve there win today. they did. I am not complaining at all. Well done Wales.

[Collapse2005]

I would fancy Wales' chances v NZ at the moment

Dream on boy Dream on.

I dont see why not, its actually almost illogical to think they couldnt since they have won against everyone else recently

[Collapse2005]

Home or away?

Home or neutral venue. Not away.

[mikey_dragon]

It was only JJ Williams criticising Biggar lately. I think most fans appreciate him, he rarely puts a foot wrong. I certainly think he’s our best 10 but we need to bring on his back-up Jarrod Evans. Also, Parkes looks too slow. I don’t know why Gats is so reluctant to throw Watkin in.

[carpet baboon]

Do you think Jarrod will start against Ireland?
Apparently Gats and Joe have been discussing the team make up for the matches.

[RDW]

If I was Welsh I know who I'd rather at 10 going into the world cup! Evans and patchell may be able to get the backline moving but can they control the game, drive the team forward and excert their bloody minded will to get a result at the highest level? Not in time for this world cup certainly. Biggar it is!

[RDW]

P.s. apologies for my hard line red penning last night but hopefully people can see from the good rugby discussion that broke out afterwards that this eventually had the desired effect.

Hopefully this continues into today but if not you know we're watching!

[LondonTiger]

Did not see the game, nor seen any highlights etc (spending time with daughters and Tarantino to make up for going to Twickenham last week). I am told that while England could argue the balance of referee decisions were not in their favour, Wales were fully deserving of the win. 

If you had told me the lineups for the two games in advance I would have bitten your hand off for the aggregate score. Wales are a very good team and their 12 month form means they have deservedly won the right to be the number 1 ranked side in the world. Not sure what effect upcoming games will have on the rankings prior to WC start, but it should give the Welsh players a further confidence boost. 

So, while happy with the aggregate scores, a touch disappointed with the lack of discernible impact from our bench. Also a touch worried by the score from Nice.

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