Transgender rugby player

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

What are peoples thoughts on this?

My personal view is it really doesn't worry me what gender people decide they are, be happy with yourself. But in sport I can't see how she is allowed to compete with other women.

There is a safety aspect as she is physically stronger than any other player on that field.

Would any rugby club be allowed to field a 18 year old at under 13/14 level, no. You can't change age just as you cannot change you physical make up IMHO.

The point of gender segregated sport is to try and make competition fairer. Now I want sport to be as inclusive as possible and everyone should have a change to play sport but........

The presence of pre-operative transgender women in female sports does worry me. In cycling there is the very high profile case of Rachel McKinnon who as a newbie to the sport won a world masters title on the track (35-44 age group. 
This story covers the case pretty well including an argument that suggests that while Dr McKinnon is perfectly entitled to view herself as female she has inherent advantages, not least height, weight and thus power, from being born male.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon_480285

Dr McKinnon is one of those who immediately calls anyone a transphobe should they even wish to debate her right to participate in women's sport. This makes any discussion difficult to hold.

Contact sports then worry me more. Look up Hannah Mouncey and decide how comfortable you are whether she should be playing Aussie Rules with women. Her right to play was removed at the end of last year so she is playing women's handball instead - having been a mens handball international 3 years ago.

So no, I am not comfortable with Kelly playing against women (assuming she is still pre-op). I would leave it up to both her team-mates and her opponents to decide. Anyone who feels that it is not safe should be allowed their view and not labelled as a hater.


One of my elder daughter's better friends is transgender. Having made that decision she is much happier within herself and will be looking to take the hormones and proceed down the operative route. It is a massive and imo pretty brave decision to make especially with the reactions you get from people looking to mock. She has represented England in the past at sport - and would like to continue playing sport going forward, but she is unsure what is fair for everyone involved. She fully accepts that having been born male she has certain genetic advantages that were not available to competitors who were born women. 

The whole thing is complex I could (and have) spent hours discussing this comparing the differing advantages that may be held by transgender women both pre-op and post-op as well as women like Caster Semenya who have external female genitalia yet are genetically male with internal testes.

Sports bodies will need to come up with rules robust enough to with stand scrutiny, that are led by science and try to strike a reasonable balance.

Its a very difficult subject but one that needs to be discussed.

Look at it like this, if you are a ref who turns up to referee a womans game and there is a bloke with a ponytail warming up who clearly is a bloke what do you do? Is there anything you can do without being branded transphobe and a biggot etc....

Recently heard a case of a youth coach who said come over here lads whilst running an activity, turns out one of the kids was a girl who wanted to be a boy, but yet their parents complained!

The world is changing fast.

Bit of a joke that she is allowed play womens rugby. Not a level playing field. If you are biologically male regardless of whether you identify as male, female or something inbetween in terms of gender you shouldnt be allowed play womens rugby because biologically you have an unfair advantage and at worse a dangerous advantage.

It is something that merits discussion, but all too often with these topics people with agendas can use this as a stick to beat all trans people with.

I think the comments on this post so far are fair and considered, but one look at the responses Brian Moore has had on Twitter would show that there are plenty out there who aren't (Moore having just said he would later comment on the debate but not in 280 characters, which to be fair is far too few for something so nuanced).

I'd largely agree with the posts on here, it's such a fine line between respecting people's life choices and respecting the integrity of women's sport and the safety of all involved.

For what it's worth I don't think people are transitioning for a sporting advantage, so I lean more towards allowing them to compete, but would caveat that with I definitely don't have the knowledge to say what would he appropriate. As above, it needs to be a science-led discussion with experts in consultation with the main stakeholders, e.g. cis-women and trans-women.

It is something that needs to be moved on quickly and carefully though.

Did you watch the video? The transgender woman is towering above her team mates. It seems clear that there is a significant physical advantage.

If a male wishes to subjectively identify as a female, be my guest - but sports are segregated by sex because of objective (and substanstial) sexual dimorphism, not on the basis of differences of identity. Objective males should not be permitted to play rugby in the objectively female league.

I don't even think there's a debate to be had here really, the clear and obvious answer is no. People can try and justify against that all they want but it simply is not fair on the actual women to have to compete against men.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:If a male wishes to subjectively identify as a female, be my guest - but sports are segregated by sex because of objective (and substanstial) sexual dimorphism, not on the basis of differences of identity. Objective males should not be permitted to play rugby in the objectively female league.

Thats sums it up for me really.

This issue is larger than Rugby Union and is larger than sport.  It is linked to a cultural struggle within Western society driven by ... [self-censored].  Co-opted into that struggle is the issue of transgenderism - which has in fact split the activists driving the cultural struggle against traditional Western society (which is seen as patriarchal and exploitative).  

Another issue is intersexed individuals - genetically male but with external looking female features that allows them to believe themselves to be female and to compete as a female or at least until recently (e.g. Caster Semenya).

On top of all that there are issues of confidentiality (and ethics) - as these are extremely personal and sensitive issues for the actual individuals involved.

The IAAF haven't helped with their bizarre rule that only affects a small amount of events, I doubt there would such uproar about it being a witch hunt if it was across all events.

No name Bertie wrote:This issue is larger than Rugby Union and is larger than sport.  It is linked to a cultural struggle within Western society driven by ... [self-censored].  Co-opted into that struggle is the issue of transgenderism - which has in fact split the activists driving the cultural struggle against traditional Western society (which is seen as patriarchal and exploitative).  

Another issue is intersexed individuals - genetically male but with external looking female features that allows them to believe themselves to be female and to compete as a female or at least until recently (e.g. Caster Semenya).

On top of all that there are issues of confidentiality (and ethics) - as these are extremely personal and sensitive issues for the actual individuals involved.

No need to self censor. Good points.

The problem with everything to do with gender these days is that you cannot be seen to be discriminating against anyone or there is a massive who ha and legal challenges etc.

Being a realist, you cannot be fair to everybody all of the time. I am not going to call these people unfortunates as that is up to them to decide, but by allowing genetic men to play against genetic women you are discriminating against the women by saying, you cannot play in or against all genetically female teams or participants.

To allow men who without any genetic female genes to play against women because they have decided that they are a woman and not a man leaves the whole sport open to abuse, whatever the sport and could wind up with a host of sexual abuse claims from women who feel that they have been groped or whatever by a bloke masquerading as a woman.

For the good or any sport these people need to be monitored and the testosterone levels or what ever kept below a certain level to make it possible to compete fairly. International athletics have got it right in my opinion, but it needs to be universal across all sports and all events.

I think there are many different facets of this problem.

I think there does have to be a difference between how we as a society treat transgender individuals in sport compared to in everyday life. In sport there is a protected "female" category for a reason.
Allowing individuals who have spent a significant amount of time benefiting from the effects of much higher testosterone to compete as females is, in my opinion unfair.
But allowing this to happen in contact sport is not only unfair but also unsafe.
There is also good evidence that even with treatment to lower T, the performance benefits of going through puberty with male levels of T persist. So even transitioned MTF transgender athletes have a performance advantage compared to females despite surgical and hormonal treatment.

MrsP wrote:I think there are many different facets of this problem.

Nice to see you posting, even if just this once. Been a variety of discussions on concussion protocols where we really could have used your input.

This subject has been covered up to the point above pretty sensitively.

Sadly it perhaps dipped into a bit of name calling. I have archived the more recent posts and will for now close this. If anyone wants to make a point PM me and I can re-open it.