The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[eirebilly]

Labuschagne, easily Australia's best batter today, surely has to remain in the Aussie XI even when Smith returns - I presume Wade would drop out.

Now he's copped an unfortunate one, just as I type that.

As I said earlier, know nothing about the lad but he seems made for test cricket. I know Wade got a century but I think it will be him that makes way once Smith returns.

[Soul Requiem]

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball  passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than  upholding the onfield ump

As in the ball visibly deviated off the bat.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Roy is going to click today and get a big score.

I'd usually say "this will work eventually" - I'm not so sure!

[Afro]

As in the ball visibly deviated off the bat.

I couldn't see a visible deviation tbh. Umpire gave out, Cummins clearly didn't feel he touched it, snicko couldn't definitively show that Cummins wasn't out, in fact it seemed to show that he was.

But Michael Clarkes point was valid. There is clearly a spike on Snicko before the ball gets to Cummins bat, so there must have been some other noise. Except there is nothing visible that could have been that noise (no bat hitting pad or floor or similar.

So no arguments, he was out, but Clarke's point was how can you be sure that the second spike wasn't caused by the same noise as caused the first spike. And the honest answer is, you can't be 100% sure. In all probability it was bat on ball, but I couldn't say 100% that it was.

[robbo277]

The points on Woakes are interesting, his use continues to be notable. I just can’t see them leaving him out, even when Anderson is fit. His batting seems better than quite a few down the order and they need the numbers with how likely so many are to fail.

I suppose that Woakes’s use was different today because Broad and Archer kept getting little breaks, so kept coming back fresh for the newer ball, leaving Woakes to finally come in with a ball a bit older than usual first change?

Doesn’t excuse his bowling, him and Stokes both disappointed.

Jof is a sensation and the crowd love him. He’s going to be a mainstream star. If he wins England this Ashes, he’s going to be Sports Personality of the Year too.

Some pundits questioned his inclusion in the World Cup as it might "disrupt team morale". Not quite "you'll win nothing with kids", but we've won the World Cup and we're nearly halfway through Jofra's Ashes now - and like you say the fans love him. He's fielding with his jumper tied around his waist and nutmegging Chris Woakes on the pitch. Everything he does is watchable to go with his undeniable talent.

[Duty281]

Sun's out at Headingley at the moment - England just have to hope it remains that way through the day. The equation is very simple - bat the day, win the game. Doddle, right?

Right?!

[robbo277]

As in the ball visibly deviated off the bat.

I couldn't see a visible deviation tbh. Umpire gave out, Cummins clearly didn't feel he touched it, snicko couldn't definitively show that Cummins wasn't out, in fact it seemed to show that he was.

But Michael Clarkes point was valid. There is clearly a spike on Snicko before the ball gets to Cummins bat, so there must have been some other noise. Except there is nothing visible that could have been that noise (no bat hitting pad or floor or similar.

So no arguments, he was out, but Clarke's point was how can you be sure that the second spike wasn't caused by the same noise as caused the first spike. And the honest answer is, you can't be 100% sure. In all probability it was bat on ball, but I couldn't say 100% that it was.

Which is fair, you can't say for 100% that he was out. But as the umpire has given him out he needs the evidence that he's not out - i.e. no noise when the ball passes the bat. If snicko is faulty and can't be relied upon, the best you can do is keep your review and stick with the umpires.

[GSC]

I'd put it down as "umpires call", the technology should only be there to correct obvious mistakes, not marginal calls.

to me, if you can spend more than a minute arguing over it, it isnt clear enough to overturn

[robbo277]

Sun's out at Headingley at the moment - England just have to hope it remains that way through the day. The equation is very simple - bat the day, win the game. Doddle, right?

Right?!

Not quite. We'd be strong favourites, but still have work to do.

With a shortened day yesterday there will be 98 overs today. Bat the day at 3s we'll be just shy of 300 with a lead of 120-odd. The issue would be Australia getting a third innings on a pretty fresh pitch in similar sun and able to try and match their third innings against our second and bowl us out cheaply second time around. So we'd either need to put in a good performance with the ball to limit our chase or a good performance with the bat to knock off a potentially challenging total.

My mind keeps going back to Shai Hope chasing down 340 with the West Indies on this pitch though. There's so much time left in the game. If we get to 300 and Australia make 400 there will still be time enough for us to chase 280, and at Headingley I don't think it would be impossible. Would rather not be chasing 280 either way, but I think with some application it would be possible.

If England can do the unthinkable and bat into Day 3 for a lesser-spotted 400, then the game is all but done.

[Soul Requiem]

As in the ball visibly deviated off the bat.

I couldn't see a visible deviation tbh. Umpire gave out, Cummins clearly didn't feel he touched it, snicko couldn't definitively show that Cummins wasn't out, in fact it seemed to show that he was.

But Michael Clarkes point was valid. There is clearly a spike on Snicko before the ball gets to Cummins bat, so there must have been some other noise. Except there is nothing visible that could have been that noise (no bat hitting pad or floor or similar.

So no arguments, he was out, but Clarke's point was how can you be sure that the second spike wasn't caused by the same noise as caused the first spike. And the honest answer is, you can't be 100% sure. In all probability it was bat on ball, but I couldn't say 100% that it was.

You don't need to be 100% sure because he was originally given out, the only two people to question the decision are Clarke and Ponting, now I wonder why?

[Afro]

I didn't think Clarke was questioning the decision at the time. I haven't seen if he said something since.

I think his point wasn't about this particular decision, he accepted that there was nothing to show the umpire's decision was wrong, which is correct in this instance.

I took it that he was questioning the reliability of snicko in general, if something else that wasn't clear in the images, could trigger the spike.

[Gooseberry]

If a tail ender getting out playing and missing is the biggest thing the Aussies have to whinge about then we arent doing too badly.

[Duty281]

Ideal batting conditions today. If England can't bat the day on this, they don't deserve the Ashes.

[alfie]

Didn't see the Cummins dismissal ; but reading all the chat it seems quite clear that the on field decision had to be upheld.
The concern really is that if there is any way in which the snicko effect can be a bit misleading then other review decisions - from either batsmen or bowling sides - might be unreliable. It is often said : "big spike on snicko ...nothing else it could be but the bat" : but if random other noises can intrude that isn't necessarily true...

Must say I've seen a couple of cases in the past where there have been funny little blips shown just before the possible impact with the bat and I have no idea what caused them...so is the technology totally reliable ?
Answer : mostly . (I think) So if there is any grey area then that is why we have on field decision makers ...and why the TV ump needs clear evidence to overturn...

It is OK , I'd say.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

There’s nothing to suggest that anyone but Steve Smith can be expected to bat like a typical test player with any consistency, whatever’s happening.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It is enjoyable to see how teams find and attack a weakness in test cricket. Burns is gonna have to get used to a short leg now

[Gooseberry]

Defensive prod for 4 is exactly what Roy is in the side for

[Duty281]

Another useless innings from Roy. No idea on how to build a innings and it's just so very easy to get him out.

[eirebilly]

Jaysus, Roy...

[hampo17]

Time for Roy to go, not good enough at Test level.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I don’t want to be angry at Jason Roy. Is this his fault? You’d argue he’s been put into a position he isn’t really able to play and he’s been given the instruction to have the attitude of playing natural and going hard at things.

[hampo17]

The bigger question Chris would be, is there anyone at domestic level we can bring in at the top of the order?

[eirebilly]

I don’t want to be angry at Jason Roy. Is this his fault? You’d argue he’s been put into a position he isn’t really able to play and he’s been given the instruction to have the attitude of playing natural and going hard at things.

He has all the talent in the world just not the composure for test cricket.

[No name Bertie]

Very predictable from Jason Roy - what are the odds he will get himself out for less than 10 runs or less than 20 balls faced? Someone could make a fortune betting against him.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Double ducks for Root

[hampo17]

Root as well

[Duty281]

Oh dear, England. That was a fantastic ball, though.

Root's nightmare run of form continues...at the rate he's going, he's becoming a candidate for the selection axe!

[eirebilly]

In fairness to Root, that ball would have gotten many top batsmen.

[Duty281]

Never fear lads, it's Joe Denly at four!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I’m more angry at the management, which I do feel has failed as a rest management for a long time.

Roy killed by opening. Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

It’s disappointing and their own fault

Now Denly is gone and England are in disarray

[No name Bertie]

Joe Root lasts two balls - edges first ball - but it hits the ground. Then edges the second ball faced and it is caught. It seems someone is playing the same reel over and over again - Roy out going for a ball he should leave well alone, then edgy Root edges a ball that still has the shine on it.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Saved by review! Missing wickets

[Duty281]

England still on the ropes though. Some more fantastic bowling from this Australian unit.

[eirebilly]

That looked very much out in real time.

Excellent review in the end.

[Duty281]

Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

And by having the captaincy. A terrible burden.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I’m more angry at the management, which I do feel has failed as a rest management for a long time.

Roy killed by opening. Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

It’s disappointing and their own fault

Now Denly is gone and England are in disarray

As we have said many times, it's almost like batting a player you see as a middle order player, who has never opened, opening the batting is a bad idea.

And also moving your best batsman from the position he bats best in, to a position he is uncomfortable in and faces more danger, to protect Joe Denly, is also a bad idea.

It genuinely maddens/baffles me that they haven't fixed this. But hey, they moved Buttler/Bairstow round for the sake of it, even though they scored runs last game!

[Soul Requiem]

I don’t want to be angry at Jason Roy. Is this his fault? You’d argue he’s been put into a position he isn’t really able to play and he’s been given the instruction to have the attitude of playing natural and going hard at things.

He has all the talent in the world just not the composure for test cricket.

I'll argue against that to be honest, he has the talent to play limited overs cricket but not test cricket, that isn't a composure issue but rather a massive flaw in his technique and being able to play extravagant shots doesn't equate to talent.

[Gooseberry]

JR looks thoroughly shot

[Pal Joey]

Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.  

And by having the captaincy. A terrible burden.

Bradman loved it.

Just a little too much juice in that ball from Hazlewood. It is rearing up nicely though. We need to make hay early and keep the pressure up.

[Gooseberry]

Burns has only scored off two balls so far. I bet Boycott loves him. He does look far more in control of himself than the others.

[Soul Requiem]

Burns has only scored off two balls so far. I bet Boycott loves him. He does look far more in control of himself than the others.

It's not how you start that matters it's how you finish.

[alfie]

I’m more angry at the management, which I do feel has failed as a rest management for a long time.

Roy killed by opening. Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

It’s disappointing and their own fault

Now Denly is gone and England are in disarray

Well Denly has survived on review . But otherwise spot on. The unwise choice of Roy as an opener , and the stubborn decision to stick with it even though a blind man can see it will never work , has condemned England to being one down early every time . And as for putting Roy at three when the figures make it so plain he is a hugely better player at four ....

Has to be said the Aussie bowling - and catching - has been excellent this morning

Could other selections work better ? Never know unless they try. And that stubbornness means they won't change until too late...which it may be already.

Have to get a lot right to win an Ashes series. They've got this top order massively wrong .

[hampo17]

I’m more angry at the management, which I do feel has failed as a rest management for a long time.

Roy killed by opening. Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

It’s disappointing and their own fault

Now Denly is gone and England are in disarray

Well Denly has survived on review . But otherwise spot on.  The unwise choice of Roy as an opener , and the stubborn decision to stick with it even though a blind man can see it will never work , has condemned England to being one down early every time .  And as for putting Roy at three when the figures make it so plain he is a hugely better player at four ....

Has to be said the Aussie bowling - and catching - has been excellent this morning

Could other selections work better ? Never know unless they try.  And that stubbornness means they won't change until too late...which it may be already.  

Have to get a lot right to win an Ashes series. They've got this top order massively wrong .

Who do you bring in for Roy Alfie?

[alfie]

That looked very much out in real time.

Excellent review in the end.

Actually I was confident it was going over ...another one against the on field umpires

Thank heaven for drs.

[robbo277]

Worth pointing out that Roy's best score (by a considerable way) was at 3 against an older ball (because of Leach's batting masterclass vs Ireland). 72 off 78. The attack wasn't quite as good as the Aussie one, but it was at least a score.

Burns and Denly to open with Roy at 3? Or if you still want Root at 3 to break up that top 3 he at least has a bit more protection from players that will stick in. Then Roy can attack from 4? Or is the writing on the wall for Roy's current stint in test cricket?

He might get another go here, but he'll be under a lot of personal pressure regardless of the game situation.

[Afro]

I don’t want to be angry at Jason Roy. Is this his fault? You’d argue he’s been put into a position he isn’t really able to play and he’s been given the instruction to have the attitude of playing natural and going hard at things.

He has all the talent in the world just not the composure for test cricket.

Is this something that could be remedied by a sports psychologist?

[Pal Joey]

Burns has only scored off two balls so far. I bet Boycott loves him. He does look far more in control of himself than the others.

I'm the only one who has him in the tipping competition. Is there something I don't know?
I like his pugnacious style and they way it looks as though he's peering through a mailbox... somewhere in the distance. He's real tough custard.

[robbo277]

The match situation now requires these two to see us to lunch. Even if it's only 40/2. We can catch up. We have the time to bat two days for 300 if that's how we want to go. Just don't lose any more wickets!

[Duty281]

Somehow, England are only two down. Denly struggling to get a bat on anything. These two seamers getting through plenty of overs...expecting to see Lyon soon.

Oh yes, he's on now. Good call, I think.

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