Wales and Ireland Two warm up test series Match Thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

7th SEPTEMBER 2019
KO: 14:00
IRELAND VS WALES
Aviva Stadium

Ireland

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps
14. Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 15 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 19 caps
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 35 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
5. Jean Kleyn (Munster) 2 caps
6. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 32 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 15 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps
17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 30 caps
18. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 47 caps
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 22
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
23. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps


Wales

Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues); Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Alun Wyn Jones (capt, Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Owen Watkin (Ospreys)

[Taylorman]

“Anyway, I get both sides of view, you dont get mine. thats fine.”

It’s not a view. You’ve just completely misunderstood the ‘phone call’.  

nope, that it was ever made is the problem. one phone call changed the entire juxtaposition of the match, rendering it useless to negatively impacting the teams from a mental perspective in terms of the knockouts- the ENTIRE reason these matches have any benefit at all.

[Guest]

Great response again oracle. Seeing as I’ll be between Newport and Bristol in a couple weeks time would you care to meet up and say that or whatever else you feel to my face? Your personal attacks against me because I don’t agree with your way of thinking have been going on a while now.

And vice versa, Michael. Outstanding lack of self awareness there

[Guest]

“Anyway, I get both sides of view, you dont get mine. thats fine.”

It’s not a view. You’ve just completely misunderstood the ‘phone call’.  

nope, that it was ever made is the problem. one phone call changed the entire juxtaposition of the match, rendering it useless to negatively impacting the teams from a mental perspective in terms of the knockouts- the ENTIRE reason these matches have any benefit at all.

But you still think the arranged a soft, go easy on each other, match. They didn’t.

[mikey_dragon]

Well still waiting for a DM on my social media coward, what’s up?

[Taylorman]

Yes but an Oracle would know where you'll be, thats why theres a south of Spain IP address.

time to chill folks...

[RDW]

Oracle - there's really no need for the personal comments.

I'm sure you'll respond saying 'he started it' or something similar but the bottom line is if you say things like you have done you're the one that will get in trouble.

Mikey - can you move on and try and let the thread return to rugby?

[Guest]

Oracle - there's really no need for the personal comments.

I'm sure you'll respond saying 'he started it' or something similar but the bottom line is if you say things like you have done you're the one that will get in trouble.

Mikey - can you move on and try and let the thread return to rugby?

No, I’m not that childish RDW.

Mikey, apologies. I went too far. I’ll put you back on ignore to avoid temptation.

[Taylorman]

For me Gats particularly has lost all momentum with this match. Hes allowed too many distractions to get to him. First he spends time pushing the merits of gaining no. 1 aside, saying NZ media will laugh, we welcome not having the position, then allows Ireland off the hook by playing a friendlier than friendly match at whatever its called now, and in the process gave up the number one position.

Instead of meekly pushing aside the praise he should have used it to his advantage, acknowledged his side had done all the hard work to get to where it is, the number one merely a mathematical by product of that effort, if he so chooses to lessen its achievement.

But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Perhaps...Gats is right. They dont deserve to be no. 1.

[profitius]

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Or its essentially preseason in the NH. Players have about 2 games to get everything 100% and then they're playing in the world cup. It's a massive advantage for the SH that's never spoken about.

[Taylorman]

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Or its essentially preseason in the NH. Players have about 2 games to get everything 100% and then they're playing in the world cup. It's a massive advantage for the SH that's never spoken about.

As good explanation as any I guess and you're right. It doesnt bode well. Luckily there are one or two crunch matches in pool play then. Still think the fact that Ireland and Wales want to align for the benefit of both teams, when none of England, Oz, SA nor SA...the only winners of this, wont have a bar of that setup, says something for the mental prep side of the challenge. 4 weeks out, everyones your enemy.

[RiscaGame]

NZ achieve top spot in the IRB ratings without beating the No 1 side

Erm ... other than last 30 games in a row between the two sides, over the past 60+ years,  maybe?  Wales have had good results and played good rugby but no-one can really moan about not being No 1 if you haven’t beaten everyone else in the most recent head to head games.

Blinking heck. You and commas have a bit of a funny relationship.

[RiscaGame]

Proper warm up game that and we learned loads....certainly better than going soft on teams like Italy. Yeah you get a soft win but you learn zip.
Amos - the ball died too often with Amos but he probably goes
Lane - should go but probably won't see Amos but is one for the future
Holmes - as above looked confident but stays
Brown - last pen was a shocker decision by ref but clearly he doesnt fly
Lee- solid and a traveller
Carre- undercooked at this level but will be one in future
Ball/Davies - assuming Beard, Hill and AWJ go then its him or Ball. After kicking Ball in the balls for his midfield passing I take Ball marginally
Williams - fizzed and deserves to be No 2 scrum half
Patchell - ah now I remember....will push Biggar IMO, totally changed 2nd half
Watkin/Williams - for me its the latter but he looks rusty needs another game fast
Steff Evans - just off the pace and doesnt have the space he needs his first counter should have been a kick. Not sure he is an international
Ben Evans - goes but he needs game time fast
Jarrod Evans - poor IMO and I dont think he understood what was going on first half....offered nothing really to combat Irish blitz and little or no kicking game
Shingler/Davies - for me its Shingler cos he offers more but I feel for Cubby. You have to assume its Moriarty, Navidi, Shingler, Tipuric, Wainwright

31 Man RWC Squad

Props - Smith, Evans, Francis, Lewis, Lee, Jones
Hookers - Ken, Dee, Elias
Locks - AWJ, Hill, Beard, Ball
Back rows - Shingler, Moriarty, Wainwright, Tipuric, Navidi
9s - Davies, Williams, Davies
10S - Bigs, Patchell
Centres - JD2, Parkes, Williams
Back 3 - Half, Adams, North, Amos, Liam

Not heard of Ben Evans for yonks.

[RiscaGame]

hmm...is that the shortest no. 1 reign in history?
thanks though...good cheap sitters are hard to find these days.

Think they are still number one Taylor.  I think we needed a 16 point gap or something.  In the end, the win was plenty...... relief.

NZ have moved top again. Ireland 2nd, Wales drop to 4th. Wales can go back top if they win by 16 points next week. A smaller win than that merely sees them swapping with Ireland.

Nah, we love the under the radar stuff.

[RiscaGame]

Interesting that one-eyed Guns has gone quiet about the scrums. Wtf was Poite’s odd calls all about there? Kilcoyne looked good. The rest of Ireland’s props and hookers were meh. If those guys don’t improve next week then Ireland won’t be much good. Oh well, onto next week!

Wales were dominated in the scrums Mikey, I dont think Wales will be happy with that. Ireland had two tight heads playing and still dominated.

Where do you get dominated from? The first scrum of the match went to Wales. I agree Ireland got the upper hand but from then on they collapsed a few. Wales won the final scrum but Poite just waved play on and didn’t award us the pen. Thanks to Ireland Poite took a dislike to Brown and to be honest that’s just how scrums go, but it’s still frustrating to watch.

Wales conceded a penalty try, numerous scrum penalties, turn overs and a yellow from the scrum. Ireland dominated Mikey but as Maes rightly points out it was a fairly green Wales front row.

Why did Ireland dominate Mikey? Seems unnecessary.

[RiscaGame]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda Mikey. The record books will show your scrum played a big part in losing you the game. Ireland were pretty dominant. Cant see the same happening next week though.

I don't see this as much of a win for us realistically. Beating Wales in Cardiff is amazing but this wasn't really a Wales 15.

Oh don’t cry and take it too seriously, this is just my point of view. The real test is next week in Dublin.

Ireland should win next week due to home advantage. But wait Wales was at home this week, and lost right.

Seeing as you wasn't aware of the majority of the Welsh team today, are you even sure they played?

Congratulations to Ireland, for doing what England couldn’t do twice this year.

[RiscaGame]

Great response again oracle. Seeing as I’ll be between Newport and Bristol in a couple weeks time would you care to meet up and say that or whatever else you feel to my face? Your personal attacks against me because I don’t agree with your way of thinking have been going on a while now.

This has creased me

[Guest]

Has Toner been cited yet? He should be out of action for 6 weeks or so.

[RiscaGame]

I saw a stat before the game, that Jarrod Evans was a 67% (or so) kicker, for Cardiff. I did have a slight worry about things with that, but his one miss was shocking. He clearly won’t make the RWC squad, but imagine having your first cap, playing outside Aled Davies. There’s no justice.

[Rugby Fan]

...none of England, Oz, SA nor SA...the only winners of this, wont have a bar of that setup, says something for the mental prep side of the challenge. 4 weeks out, everyones your enemy.

As I mentioned above, England DID align with France in 2003, which is also the year we won, so I think you are over-reading what is actually happening.

It's pre-season here. Southern Hemisphere players can treat the World Cup as a normal part of their season. The World Cup falls in part of the year you are usually playing the Rugby Championship. You have to imagine how you would prepare, if the World Cup was in February, and you had no end of year international matches in Europe.

Coaches have to make sure that the entire 31 man squad is ready for the tournament, so everyone needs some game time. Jones chose to simplify his task by selecting his squad early, but most squads will be closer to 40-strong, so the usual challenge is giving 40 players meaningful game time over 3-4 matches. Meaningful enough, so you can make a decent selectorial judgement about who gets on the plane. That's unlike any normal part of a international season. Even if you didn't have a conversation with the other coaches, you'd know that the same opposition will be fielding very different line-ups over two matches, because that's what you'll be doing too.

On top of that, things rarely go smoothly for you. Many players use the off-season to rectify injuries they have been carrying. With few exceptions, most players delay this in a World Cup year, so coaches know some of them need to be managed more carefully than usual. It's far more common to substitute a key squad player, if he looks like he's taken a knock, than in a regular Test match. You might also end up deliberately playing people out of position, just to ensure they have some game time.

It's a difficult balance. Ireland weren't necessarily expecting to win at Twickenham but losing heavily was definitely not part of the plan. However, if Ireland had fielded their best available team, it might have been even more disruptive for preparation. Only Schmidt knows whether he got the balance wrong.

[majesticimperialman]

Why did  play stop in the first half? was there a streaker on the field or some one invade the game/ run on to the pitch?

[Guest]

Why did  play stop in the first half? was there a streaker on the field or some one invade the game/ run on to the pitch?

Yes a pitch invasion. Tv companies choose not to show pitch invasions these day.

[Taylorman]

...none of England, Oz, SA nor SA...the only winners of this, wont have a bar of that setup, says something for the mental prep side of the challenge. 4 weeks out, everyones your enemy.

As I mentioned above, England DID align with France in 2003, which is also the year we won, so I think you are over-reading what is actually happening.

It's pre-season here. Southern Hemisphere players can treat the World Cup as a normal part of their season. The World Cup falls in part of the year you are usually playing the Rugby Championship. You have to imagine how you would prepare, if the World Cup was in February, and you had no end of year international matches in Europe.

Coaches have to make sure that the entire 31 man squad is ready for the tournament, so everyone needs some game time. Jones chose to simplify his task by selecting his squad early, but most squads will be closer to 40-strong, so the usual challenge is giving 40 players meaningful game time over 3-4 matches. Meaningful enough, so you can make a decent selectorial judgement about who gets on the plane. That's unlike any normal part of a international season. Even if you didn't have a conversation with the other coaches, you'd know that the same opposition will be fielding very different line-ups over two matches, because that's what you'll be doing too.

On top of that, things rarely go smoothly for you. Many players use the off-season to rectify injuries they have been carrying. With few exceptions, most players delay this in a World Cup year, so coaches know some of them need to be managed more carefully than usual. It's far more common to substitute a key squad player, if he looks like he's taken a knock, than in a regular Test match. You might also end up deliberately playing people out of position, just to ensure they have some game time.

It's a difficult balance. Ireland weren't necessarily expecting to win at Twickenham but losing heavily was definitely not part of the plan. However, if Ireland had fielded their best available team, it might have been even more disruptive for preparation. Only Schmidt knows whether he got the balance wrong.

I get the start of the season thing but dont agree aligning with other coaches is a good thing. England dont seem to have and are doing ok. Injuries shouldnt have anything to do with it. If theyre trying players to see if they can replace the sextons of the game its no point putting them against a b side. That player would get more out of next weeks apparent tough game than Sexton will.

But in any case, being this raw is going to hurt them, particularly against the SH 4 who are well into their season and have already built up a very thick skin via Super then RC rugby. The fact that every match theyll all play is away is even worse, our guys are used to travelling already this year, big kms, many times. Agree that factor is going to hurt, Ireland particularly look just as flat as they did 6N time.

[majesticimperialman]

ok. just wandered what was going on.

[stevetynant]

Irrespective of what happens next week with regard to form going into the World Cup S Africa I would say are number one,NewZealand closely behind with possibly England number 3.Wales position in my opinion has always been false as they haven’t beaten NewZealand in my lifetime, haven’t faced a fully loaded S Africa and have beaten Oz once in the last 9 attempts. Next week we will see Ireland fully loaded but seeing as Sexton has played virtually no rugby this season like Henshaw I’m expecting another disjointed affair from the Irish though the defence should again step up a notch as it did in Cardiff yesterday. Both Wales and England have an advantage over Ireland in this World Cup where Ireland’s first up game is their real test whereas the others can use the opening rounds in preparation for the bigger games to come. Having said that at the moment they have zero chance of getting past the quarters unless we see a huge improvement after the Scotland game.

[Collapse2005]

For me Gats particularly has lost all momentum with this match. Hes allowed too many distractions to get to him. First he spends time pushing the merits of gaining no. 1 aside, saying NZ media will laugh, we welcome not having the position, then allows Ireland off the hook by playing a friendlier than friendly match at whatever its called now, and in the process gave up the number one position.

Instead of meekly pushing aside the praise he should have used it to his advantage, acknowledged his side had done all the hard work to get to where it is, the number one merely a mathematical by product of that effort, if he so chooses to lessen its achievement.

But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Perhaps...Gats is right. They dont deserve to be no. 1.

I think you are over thinking things a bit. Its just a warm up game.

[majesticimperialman]

I have just been watching the game again and it reminded me a bit of how Wales use to play, slow, the players treating the game like a run in the park, what the hell am i doing here. They would very often go behind at half time.

Then in the second half with about 20 minutes to go it would take a spark of genius from some one like Shane Williams to make them realise we are losing here and spark the Wales side in playing ( TO WIN) And snatch the game at the very end. which they almost did.

That some one yesterday was patchel they really step up there game in the last 20 or so minutes. but it was too little too late.

[TightHEAD]

Has Toner been cited yet? He should be out of action for 6 weeks or so.

TightHEAD your post was deleted, you’ve had plenty of warnings about trolling we have asked you to stop. Please do so

[Rugby Fan]

...But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentally still.

There is a counterpoint to your argument about how Southern Hemisphere teams approach matches.

In 2015, Australia hadn't beaten NZ for four years, when they managed a 27-19 win in Sydney. It meant they won the Rugby Campionship. Some Australian supporters wanted more of the same in the Bledisloe decider. Instead, Michael Cheika made major changes, such as dropping Pocock to the bench and drafting in Quade Cooper. The result was a 41-13 hiding. That doesn't fit your narrative of SH teams always playing the challenge in front of them.

Cheika had his eye on World Cup preparation, and the Wallabies came away with a far better tournament record than many expected. We'll never know if his approach to the Bledisloe decider helped or hindered his squad but he definitely gave priority to the World Cup, just as Gatland did this year, and Woodward did in 2003.

[yappysnap]

Good win for Ireland. No game is a friendly and any win away at the Principality should be enjoyed.

Wales shouldnt be worried

[Collapse2005]

Good win for Ireland. No game is a friendly and any win away at the Principality should be enjoyed.

Wales shouldnt be worried

Happy with the win but not going to put much stock into it. Id rather we win the game next saturday when teams are cliser to full strength.

[maestegmafia]

Good win for Ireland. No game is a friendly and any win away at the Principality should be enjoyed.

Wales shouldnt be worried

Happy with the win but not going to put much stock into it. Id rather we win the game next saturday when teams are cliser to full strength.

To be honest I think both teams got a lot out of the game. Competitive where it needed to be and no one injured, so far as I could tell. Helped both sets of coaches with their squad selections.

[Taylorman]

...But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentally still.

There is a counterpoint to your argument about how Southern Hemisphere teams approach matches.

In 2015, Australia hadn't beaten NZ for four years, when they managed a 27-19 win in Sydney. It meant they won the Rugby Campionship. Some Australian supporters wanted more of the same in the Bledisloe decider. Instead, Michael Cheika made major changes, such as dropping Pocock to the bench and drafting in Quade Cooper. The result was a 41-13 hiding. That doesn't fit your narrative of SH teams always playing the challenge in front of them.

Cheika had his eye on World Cup preparation, and the Wallabies came away with a far better tournament record than many expected. We'll never know if his approach to the Bledisloe decider helped or hindered his squad but he definitely gave priority to the World Cup, just as Gatland did this year, and Woodward did in 2003.

The other side to 15 is the RC was already won and the ABs had just been beaten with the BC decider going to Eden park, a match Cheika definitely wanted to win.

I'm not saying we don't experiment, we have done that significantly this RC based on the priority of Wcup, Bled then RC. We played a b pack in Argie etc etc. What I'm saying is we don't do deals with the opposition about what sort of match we are going to have. Cheika not playing Pocock and checking Quades form is hardly on par with 'agreeing to play b sides'.  And Cheika might have experimented out of necessity, didnt change the way we played it, which was to win. If Wales had come to the ABs asking for b turnouts after the ABs were thrashed by 40 points theyd have been sent packing.

They were thumped because they had just beaten the ABs and were now at Eden park. That scenario is not just common, but expected. Everyone who beats the ABs loses on their next attempt, bar the Lions who drew, since 2009.

The issue here is as pourfour says, the start of the season, playing tests when you wouldnt normally. That is the biggest issue going into this. And maybe we might do what Wales and Ireland did in that situation, but it would sure take some getting used to, and convincing.

[The Great Aukster]

If a game is about something other than winning then it is open to allegations of match fixing. Whomever is reporting such collusion between coaches is skating on very thin ice. This was a full test match with world ranking points and personal records on the line. Wales lost their unbeaten home run for example and people bet on stuff like that. How can World Rugby sit back and ignore such serious allegations?

As usual Taylorman can't see the big picture, but he has one valid point that if the game is engineered to be little more than a marginally more competitive training session, then it could harm a team's psyche. So have Wales been psychologically hurt by losing to Ireland in Cardiff for the first time since their pre-2015 RWC warm up, or is Ireland damaged by knowing they have only won when it doesn't really matter?

[profitius]

For me Gats particularly has lost all momentum with this match. Hes allowed too many distractions to get to him. First he spends time pushing the merits of gaining no. 1 aside, saying NZ media will laugh, we welcome not having the position, then allows Ireland off the hook by playing a friendlier than friendly match at whatever its called now, and in the process gave up the number one position.

Instead of meekly pushing aside the praise he should have used it to his advantage, acknowledged his side had done all the hard work to get to where it is, the number one merely a mathematical by product of that effort, if he so chooses to lessen its achievement.

But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Perhaps...Gats is right. They dont deserve to be no. 1.

I forgot to mention that the ironic thing is NZ treat the rugby championship as a series of friendly matches in the lead up to the world cup. 3rd time in a row they've done it before world cups. They couldn't be arsed about winning it and only sprung into life when Australia embarrassed them.

[maestegmafia]

If a game is about something other than winning then it is open to allegations of match fixing. Whomever is reporting such collusion between coaches is skating on very thin ice. This was a full test match with world ranking points and personal records on the line. Wales lost their unbeaten home run for example and people bet on stuff like that. How can World Rugby sit back and ignore such serious allegations?

As usual Taylorman can't see the big picture, but he has one valid point that if the game is engineered to be little more than a marginally more competitive training session, then it could harm a team's psyche. So have Wales been psychologically hurt by losing to Ireland in Cardiff for the first time since their pre-2015 RWC warm up, or is Ireland damaged by knowing they have only won when it doesn't really matter?

Taylorman wrote the following in his last post.

The issue here is as pourfour says, the start of the season, playing tests when you wouldnt normally. That is the biggest issue going into this. And maybe we might do what Wales and Ireland did in that situation, but it would sure take some getting used to, and convincing.

Don’t accuse people before you’ve read what they have written. I personally hate these accusations that posters write that state “as usual”

[The Great Aukster]

Isn't it ironic then MM that you're making the very same accusations?

[maestegmafia]

Isn't it ironic then MM that you're making the very same accusations?

Move on mate..!

[Collapse2005]

For me Gats particularly has lost all momentum with this match. Hes allowed too many distractions to get to him. First he spends time pushing the merits of gaining no. 1 aside, saying NZ media will laugh, we welcome not having the position, then allows Ireland off the hook by playing a friendlier than friendly match at whatever its called now, and in the process gave up the number one position.

Instead of meekly pushing aside the praise he should have used it to his advantage, acknowledged his side had done all the hard work to get to where it is, the number one merely a mathematical by product of that effort, if he so chooses to lessen its achievement.

But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Perhaps...Gats is right. They dont deserve to be no. 1.

I forgot to mention that the ironic thing is NZ treat the rugby championship as a series of friendly matches in the lead up to the world cup. 3rd time in a row they've done it before world cups. They couldn't be arsed about winning it and only sprung into life when Australia embarrassed them.

Thats very true, experimentation, rotation and shortened format completely cheapen the RC every 4 years.

[Taylorman]

If a game is about something other than winning then it is open to allegations of match fixing. Whomever is reporting such collusion between coaches is skating on very thin ice. This was a full test match with world ranking points and personal records on the line. Wales lost their unbeaten home run for example and people bet on stuff like that. How can World Rugby sit back and ignore such serious allegations?

As usual Taylorman can't see the big picture, but he has one valid point that if the game is engineered to be little more than a marginally more competitive training session, then it could harm a team's psyche. So have Wales been psychologically hurt by losing to Ireland in Cardiff for the first time since their pre-2015 RWC warm up, or is Ireland damaged by knowing they have only won when it doesn't really matter?

No idea what you're on about with the first para, who's talking about match fixing? Your second point is exactly my point so good to see I cant see the wider picture when you 'get' the only point I made.

[Taylorman]

For me Gats particularly has lost all momentum with this match. Hes allowed too many distractions to get to him. First he spends time pushing the merits of gaining no. 1 aside, saying NZ media will laugh, we welcome not having the position, then allows Ireland off the hook by playing a friendlier than friendly match at whatever its called now, and in the process gave up the number one position.

Instead of meekly pushing aside the praise he should have used it to his advantage, acknowledged his side had done all the hard work to get to where it is, the number one merely a mathematical by product of that effort, if he so chooses to lessen its achievement.

But he definitely should have thumped Ireland at home using every conceivable advantage. Ireland are considered a possible winner to this event and to send one packing psychologically before it starts would have been a massive plus. This is a a clear and obvious mistake on his part. The Irish were down, he should have buried them. Instead...he hops into bed with them.

In contrast in the SH the main three- all two times winners minimum of this tourney, did their own thing. Played the matches as 'they' saw them.

Perth shattered the ABs who treated the return every bit like a world cup knockout, and it showed.

Just confirms that theres an aspect to northern rugby thats inherently weak mentall still and that the reduction in SH resources, not the fact that the north are playing this game any better, is the reason for the rankings changes.

Perhaps...Gats is right. They dont deserve to be no. 1.

I forgot to mention that the ironic thing is NZ treat the rugby championship as a series of friendly matches in the lead up to the world cup. 3rd time in a row they've done it before world cups. They couldn't be arsed about winning it and only sprung into life when Australia embarrassed them.

Thats very true, experimentation, rotation and shortened format completely cheapen the RC every 4 years.

You are both missing the point. Both SA and NZ experimented, oz not as much. But we did it within the confines of our own approach to each test. We risked losing to get what we could from a world cup perspective. We had to try the Mo'unga barrett combo, the Cane, Savea combo and both worked out comfortably enough.

What we didnt do is have an agreement with any other side that this match we would play a b side and next a full on test.

So we went into each test fully knowing we might counter the wrath of a side intent on beating the ABs, and that cost us Perth, and the draw with SA. Eden park we fought back on because of the home factor and because we found some players in Perth werent cutting it- Franks and Reiko. We risked bringing in youth in an effort to win, not experiment.

Gats particularly has let things cloud his judgement. His last home match, the number one ranking which he struggled to accept. Why on earth would you agree on your farewell match to fans to be an agreed b match after Ireland got tonked? Burying Ireland would have given justice to both his swansong and the no. 1 ranking. Now that kinda gets delayed a week, but its in Dublin.

Makes no sense at all from a preparation and continuity perspective.

So can anyone enlighten on what benefits were gained from this match given what gats agreed to concede for it? Was it worth it?

[Guest]

Yes, I’d say it was worth it. Gatland had to trim his squad from 42 to 31. How do you do that without playing as many players as possible in the warm up games? And yesterday showed a few not up to scratch and they’ve been binned. Better to find out now than during the tournament!

[Taylorman]

Yes, I’d say it was worth it. Gatland had to trim his squad from 42 to 31. How do you do that without playing as many players as possible in the warm up games? And yesterday showed a few not up to scratch and they’ve been binned. Better to find out now than during the tournament!

If you say so. I just dont think an agreed b vs b match is in any way shape or form going to tell you whether a new player is capable of fronting a world cup knockout. Those players should have been playing the away matches at Twickenham and Dublin. Its not how they play, its how they cope.

[Collapse2005]

It was more like B v C

[Pie]

Im just relieved we didnt get hammered and humiliated by 21 points

Boy what a bad decision that was.

This game was the single most valuable selection match we have had. It revealed Patchell is more then a back up 10 and will push Biggar, thats a huge tick in the box.We are very lucky to have two such different and capable 10s which will enable us to have a varied game plan once more. And it was last chance saloon for many players who really had less than a 50:50 of touring so necessary it was inherently weakened.

As a one of off game it underlined the import of a solid scrum base and hence why some very unexpected front row selections have been made.

It gave Evans his chance in a much bigger cauldron than Dublin - anyone who knows zip about Welsh rugby knows a home game is even greater pressure than an away game for a Welsh 10 (I underlined that bit because many think they do know something yet repeatedly show they dont)

The result this weekend was irrelevant fro this 3rd team which was a last opportunity for some very marginal squad players to put they hands up. In fact I am glad we had to chase the game decided by a penalty try and by a ref with a rep for penalizing one side more than another at scrum time.  It put patches on the spot and he answered with assurance. If nothing else had been learned that would have been enough of a take from this game.

Next weekend I expect you will likely see Gats closest pick to the Welsh 23 that will go on to face Georgia and then Aus unless he may use that as a final opportunity to test players knowing Georgia represents something of a warm up themselves.

[Taylorman]

"anyone who knows zip about Welsh rugby knows a home game is even greater pressure than an away game for a Welsh 10"

aah, I think we know a bit about home pressure pie...I mean, I dont really think its limited to Wales. Odd I know. But isnt it odd how home matches 'greatly' favour the home team.

The difference at Dublin is though, its nearer to being in an unfamiliar environment, as he will find in Japan. Its not as though he'll play in front of a mostly Welsh crowd is it? Yes theres pressure, but thats only the pressure one puts on oneself in an otherwise friendly environment, and he wont get that in Japan.

Its the pressure of unfamiliarity and how they cope which makes it worthwhile. Here it was just a good hit out. The pressure in terms of a world cup is negligible. Theres a reason Wales and Ireland are 'terrible' away. And playing at home under 'pressure' isnt one of them.

[mikey_dragon]

Are Wales and Ireland really terrible away from home? They tend to lose to only the best teams away from home and more often than not it isn’t by much. Both have good home records but for some reason Wales are getting slagged for that.

[mikey_dragon]

What did Toner supposedly do? I’ve seen a couple people mention it now.

[Rugby Fan]

What did Toner supposedly do? I’ve seen a couple people mention it now.

Goal-line defence, Toner looked like he went in low with a shoulder to the head. Ebop posted video somewhere but I can't remember which thread. It looks like something the citing officer ought to notice but it also seems that World Rugby is about nervous about disciplining a player out of the World Cup, so it might not get picked up.

[carpet baboon]

What did Toner supposedly do? I’ve seen a couple people mention it now.

Defending the line he appears to go in shoulder first. Not seen the replay, so can only say that when watching it live I thought it looked a bit dodgy.
I'm sure someone can provide a link

[Guest]

It was a bit like what Scott Barrett got cited and banned for 6 weeks reduced to 3. But probably worse with more intent. French referees were involved with both games and made a big deal about the ABs incident but strangely went missing in the Toner incident, despite being ‘right there’.

[Sponsored content]