Edinburgh vs stripy horses Sat 28th Sept

by EWT Spoons Fri 27 Sep 2019, 2:42 pm

Enough of this world cup nonsense, let's get back to the main event.

Edinburgh wrote: Summer signing Nic Groom captains Edinburgh Rugby on his competitive debut as the capital club face Zebre at BT Murrayfield in the opening round of the Guinness PRO14 this Saturday (28 September, kick-off 7.35pm).

The scrum-half is selected in the starting XV alongside fellow debutant, Nick Haining – who starts at No.8 – while second-row Murray Douglas makes his first Edinburgh appearance in seven years after re-joining the club on-loan from Brumbies this summer.

Elsewhere, new recruits Michael Willemse, Jamie Bhatti and Mesu Kunavula are all named among the replacements and if involved will make their competitive debuts, while Scotland international prop Murray McCallum is in line to make his 50th appearance for the club.

Ahead of the fixture, Head Coach Richard Cockerill, said: “We’re really excited to get the season started at home and in front of our own supporters.

“The two pre-season fixtures gave us a good chance to develop different combinations and see different players in action, but Saturday night’s match will be a real litmus test.

“Like us, Zebre will want to get the season off to the best possible start. We have to match them in all facets of the contest and win that physical battle in the early stages of the match.

“The squad have trained really well this week. We go into this weekend’s game with plenty of belief and confidence, while we’ve selected a side who are more than capable of delivering a winning performance.”

An unchanged back-three sees fullback Damien Hoyland joined by winger Duhan van der Merwe and Scotland 7s co-captain Jamie Farndale.

Scotland stars Matt Scott and Mark Bennett form an all-international centre pairing, while South African scrum-half Groom – who skippers the side in Stuart McInally’s absence – links-up with compatriot Jaco van der Walt at half-back.

David Cherry is named at hooker and packs down alongside Italian international prop Pietro Cecarelli – who faces his former club – and Pierre Schoeman. Club centurion Fraser McKenzie is paired with Douglas in the second-row.

Debutant Haining anchors a back-row that features blindside flanker Lewis Carmichael – who makes his first competitive start in over a year – and openside flanker Luke Crosbie.

Edinburgh Rugby team to face Zebre at BT Murrayfield in the Guinness PRO14
Saturday 28 September (kick-off 7.35pm) – live on Premier Sports

15. Damien Hoyland (63)

14. Jamie Farndale (2)

13. Mark Bennett (20)

12. Matt Scott (83)

11. Duhan van der Merwe (41)

10. Jaco van der Walt (39)

9. Nic Groom* CAPTAIN

1. Pierre Schoeman (23)

2. Dave Cherry (16)

3. Pietro Ceccarelli (10)

4. Fraser McKenzie (113)

5. Murray Douglas (1)

6. Lewis Carmichael (33)

7. Luke Crosbie (26)

8. Nick Haining*

Replacements: 16. Mike Willemse* 17. Jamie Bhatti* 18. Murray McCallum (49) 19. Mesu Kunavula* 20. Ally Miller (8) 21. Charlie Shiel (6) 22. Simon Hickey (19) 23. George Taylor (4)

Unavailable due to injury: James Johnstone, Ruan Steenkamp, Ross McCann, Jack Blain, Hamish Watson, Chris Dean

Unavailable due to international selection: W.P Nel, Simon Berghan, Stuart McInally, Grant Gilchrist, Ben Toolis, Jamie Ritchie, Magnus Bradbury, John Barclay, Blair Kinghorn, Darcy Graham, Henry Pyrgos, Viliame Mata

*Edinburgh Rugby competitive debut

by EWT Spoons Fri 27 Sep 2019, 2:46 pm

After the rumours (mostly by me) during the summer of unrest at the club, and cockers losing the dressing room due to the style of play, seem to have been addressed, and it seems like we're in for a treat of the backs doing something other than hanging about and hoping the ball will come towards them.

Proof will be in how the games go, as it could just be noise, at the moment, but fingers crossed for some attacking rugby.

Sadly, my wife is rude enough to have her birthday this weekend, and despite me suggesting she'd love going to the game to celebrate, she's having none of it, so I'm going to miss this game.

by jimbopip Fri 27 Sep 2019, 3:07 pm

Mr Spoons, welcome to my world. Hug

Good looking set of backs, wonder if they'll still be on starvation rations.

by reallybored Fri 27 Sep 2019, 6:28 pm

Surprised Groom is captain ahead of McKenzie.

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:01 pm

Edinburgh winning but still looking fairly ponderous.

Just have away a silly try with a charge down from a box kick.

Still sught to be winning this comfortably though

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:14 pm

A much better try there for the BP. The Scott/Bennett combo in the centre working really well

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 9:24 pm

Good win for Edinburgh

Mark Bennett the star with a hat trick and really looks back to his old self, pacey and stepping well. Will bd bsck in the Scotland picture soon enough if he carries on like that.

Haining the new No.8 looked a useful big lump who carried hard and effectively snd Nic Groom, chsrge down aside, seemed to get the tesm playing well.

Still a tendscy to slow things down to much at times but hard to complain about a 50 pointer first up. Harder tests to come, but a good start by any stsndards.

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 9:57 pm

I was going to say i hope he does feature in the 6Ns. Would be an incredible comeback. Imagine if we could call on Scott, Bennett, Johnson, Hutchinson, Jones (if he ever regains form

), McDowall, Taylor all at once. It'd be the hardest bench choices i think we'd ever have.

It gives me hope!

Sounds like Edinburgh are at least scoring tries though, albeit against the Italian u18 team.

by tigertattie Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:15 pm

Bennett flying out to japan to save Toonie’s job and win Scotland the World Cup

He’s not a naughty boy, he’s the messiah

by **RDW** Sun 29 Sep 2019, 9:42 am

Great win for Edinburgh - I know it was against an under 13s ladies XV but we've had these games in the past and haven't put 50 points on them.

Very exciting to see something close to Scott mk 2013 and Bennett mk 2015 returning - hopefully they can get a good run of games leading up to the 6N.

Reputations could be broken (or made!) In the RWC so plenty to play for.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 29 Sep 2019, 11:33 am

Just seen the highlights, great start to the season and how nice to see a fit and deadly looking Scott and Bennett partnership. Teams aren’t going enjoy playing against them if they can keep that kind of form up. Great stuff

by **RDW** Sun 29 Sep 2019, 11:37 am

Where did you see the highlights?

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 29 Sep 2019, 1:34 pm

On rugbypass

by tigertattie Sun 29 Sep 2019, 4:52 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Just seen the highlights, great start to the season and how nice to see a fit and deadly looking Scott and Bennett partnership. Teams aren’t going enjoy playing against them if they can keep that kind of form up. Great stuff

They are a good pairing. Scott has the power and Bennett has the speed.

Scott Also has good distribution so defenders can be caught if they rush up to hit him before he gets up to speed that he can put Bennett and his footwork through a narrow gap.

Looking forward to the annual slaughter of the fake tanned, hair gel wearing soap dodging ones.

by funnyExiledScot Sun 29 Sep 2019, 5:58 pm

Let's hope we see Scott and Bennett together for most of the season. Serious potential in those two.

Good start. Someone has to fly the flag for Scottish rugby....

by EWT Spoons Mon 30 Sep 2019, 8:21 am

Watched the game yesterday (after failing miserably trying not to see the score on Sat) and there were some very impressive performances. I know the opposition weren't great, but last season this would have been the type of game Edinburgh would have slipped up, or struggled in and scraped a win.

Getting a TBP win is a great start to the season.

Schoeman is just different class, the pass he sent to bennett for Scott's try was superb, I'm not sure but it also looked like it was a no look pass as well.

Groom (charge down aside) controlled the game well, and it was good to have a 9 who was on a players shoulder to finish a move. He also spoke very well after the game and from the sound of things was very vocal during the game, encouraging the team and making sure they all knew what was coming next, so I can see why he captained the team. Very impressive debut.

Scott & Bennett - This was the level of performance the fans and I'm sure the coaches were expecting when each joined the club. I know it's early days, opposition etc, but both have looked good in preseason and continued that into this game. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come.

The backrow (in fact forwards in general) all did well, and it was nice to see the backs involved more.

Not a perfect performance, but certainly a good start.

by **RDW** Mon 30 Sep 2019, 8:51 am

I was really impressed with Groom too (chargedown aside) - he's a similar style to Pyrgos without the slow and ponderess-ness. You could hear him constantly talking to the forwards and dictating play - the pack probably hate him for it but he keeps them organised! A word for Charlie Shiel too for his great assist - it was a pre-planned move where he was meant to pass it but he spotted the gap and decided to go for it instead. As the old cliche goes you can't teach that!

Pack were good and should be a match for the teams we're due to face during the WC. I like the look of the new boys Douglas and Haining.

Agree with all has been said about Scott-Bennett - what I liked the most was how interconnected they were. When one made a break the other was right on their shoulder and vice-versa.

Also good to see yet another solid performance from VDW, who will be SQ by the next 6N....

by tigertattie Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:32 am

RDW wrote:I was really impressed with Groom too (chargedown aside) - he's a similar style to Pyrgos without the slow and ponderess-ness. You could hear him constantly talking to the forwards and dictating play - the pack probably hate him for it but he keeps them organised! A word for Charlie Shiel too for his great assist - it was a pre-planned move where he was meant to pass it but he spotted the gap and decided to go for it instead. As the old cliche goes you can't teach that!

Pack were good and should be a match for the teams we're due to face during the WC. I like the look of the new boys Douglas and Haining.

Agree with all has been said about Scott-Bennett - what I liked the most was how interconnected they were. When one made a break the other was right on their shoulder and vice-versa.

Also good to see yet another solid performance from VDW, who will be SQ by the next 6N....

Is he? Surely he's in the increased years required bracket???

by **BigGee** Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:55 am

I am pretty sure both VDW and VDM both came under the old rules, unlike Schuey, who will need to do the full 5 years.

I don't think either will be available for the next 6N though both currently in their 3rd year and won't be zvsilsble till next autumn. They will be thd ladt to wuslify under the old rules

by **RDW** Mon 30 Sep 2019, 11:30 am

Schomean is 5 years - VDW and VDM are 3 years

You're right Biggee it was November 2017 VDW joined so he may be available for the AIs.

by **BigGee** Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:31 pm

Schoeman could well be playing LH for Scotland at the next WC though.

That is a prospect!

by Hazel Sapling Mon 30 Sep 2019, 4:59 pm

BigGee wrote:Schoeman could well be playing LH for Scotland at the next WC though.

That is a prospect!

It is a concern how we rely on the SA imports for props. Hopefully the push to having a semi-pro level can get scrum coaches in to work on that part of the game.

by **RDW** Mon 30 Sep 2019, 5:12 pm

I think the problem is genetics - we just don't bread that many big b*stard props who are also mobile and athletic enough to cope at the highest level. Fagerson is a bit of a freak in that regard - Allan, Sutherland etc are more representative of the size of prop we can produce.

We've had plenty big b*stards who just don't have the athleticism.

by tigertattie Tue 01 Oct 2019, 9:18 am

RDW wrote:I think the problem is genetics - we just don't bread that many big b*stard props who are also mobile and athletic enough to cope at the highest level. Fagerson is a bit of a freak in that regard - Allan, Sutherland etc are more representative of the size of prop we can produce.

We've had plenty big b*stards who just don't have the athleticism.

Dare you to say that to Chunk's face!

by Tramptastic Tue 01 Oct 2019, 2:10 pm

RDW wrote:I think the problem is genetics - we just don't bread that many big b*stard props who are also mobile and athletic enough to cope at the highest level. Fagerson is a bit of a freak in that regard - Allan, Sutherland etc are more representative of the size of prop we can produce.

We've had plenty big b*stards who just don't have the athleticism.

Ach I don't give the "we don't breed big lads" or "its not in our genetics to have tall players". The Scotland football manager used the same line a year/2 years ago when people complained we couldnt compete with the 6 ft tall germans.

Rubbish - Look at the Gray's, Gilchrist, Cummings Bradbury et al. Big lads, all Scottish through and through.

It all comes down to diet, nutrition and attitude to sport science from an early age. Fun fact: the average height and weight in Japan has increased over the past 30 years due to an increase in a western (read: american) diet becoming more popular.

Increase in access to large quantities of proteins and carbs combined with regular exercise at a young age to a wider population will result in an average increase in height and weight. There was an interview with Simon Webster towards the tail end of his career where he noted that the young lads coming through the academy at the time (Hoyland was one im fairly sure) could squat/bench/deadlift far more than he ever could and it's because the academy and youth systems introduced the concept of appropriate fitness work starting at an earlier age.

We can breed props for sure. Japans front row are relatively small. Thomas Domingo was regularly preferred over Barcella for France because, despite Barcella being an absolute unit, Domingo was a nugget who didn't shift.

We supplement with saffers because A) we have a talent gap or B) there's an assumption that a saffer will be better at propping that a Scotsman (which is nonsense, please refer to Euan Murray turning the Beast inside out).

In summary: We are easily capable of producing physical units but we don't necessarily need to if the talent is there.

by **RDW** Tue 01 Oct 2019, 2:15 pm

I guess that's me told! Laugh

by Tramptastic Tue 01 Oct 2019, 5:15 pm

RDW wrote:I guess that's me told!

haha sorry! i sometimes hate communicating via the written word as the tone can be lost Laugh

not having a go or shooting you down!

I do object to the "biologically we can't compete" as it's self defeating and we've lost before we've even started!

by tigertattie Wed 02 Oct 2019, 9:17 am

Tramptastic wrote:
RDW wrote:I guess that's me told!

haha sorry! i sometimes hate communicating via the written word as the tone can be lost not having a go or shooting you down!

I do object to the "biologically we can't compete" as it's self defeating and we've lost before we've even started!

We are though biologically created to have wee man’s syndrome and moan about folk bigger than us pushing us around but we love it when we topple a big fella as we love being the wee man with lots of fight. Far better to lose but show heart than it is to win in a cool collected way apparently.

I say this in jest obviously, but this is in our history.

The "highland charge" is a prime example of this. If you run at your opponent screaming and swearing swinging your sword frantically then when you are crushed by a cavalry charge, at least you can say it was a heroic death.

Also see Glasgow Rugby, they huff and puff about being champions once upon a time but they don’t mind losing year in year out to Edinburgh because at least Glasgow “throw it about a bit”

by **RDW** Wed 02 Oct 2019, 9:34 am

Worth saying that my point was specifically about big props. If you take our 'average' home grown prop from over the years they are mostly the Allan/Sutherland/McCallum build. The Euan Murray/Fagerson's of the world have been the exception to the rule.

by Tramptastic Wed 02 Oct 2019, 10:30 am

But then it comes down to the Domingo v Barcella argument - is size everything when you prop?

at my club all of our props are short of stature (5'10 and shorter) but all of the teams we play against have big lads at prop but they hate scrumming against us cause our nuggety props can get so much lower/have better technique.

by Hazel Sapling Wed 02 Oct 2019, 10:48 am

Slimani is another example of a smaller, high quality tighthead. With the quality of sports diet and workout programmes now, I don't think size is necessarily a limiting factor.

Z Fagerson and Reid are big boys yet it has not translated to dominance at international level, whilst Nel and Dell are smaller and have had success. Z Fagerson is noted for putting his feet too far back that indicates that coaching and habits formed at lower levels have hampered his ability to make the most of his size.

by tigertattie Wed 02 Oct 2019, 1:19 pm

As a frequent front row forward (though I'm most effective at No8 honest) I can confirm that height has hee haw to do with propping.

Technique is far more important. I've come across many a stocky midget that has been able to get under me and stop me driving forward.

Strength is also more important than size (the two are not necessarily bound together)

For non front rows, the only way I can explain is that when you scrum, it’s the whole pack that scrummage and not just the front rows. You cant even say that pack A weighs 150 stone and pack B weighs 160 stone therefore pack B will scrum better.

Total gross weight will give you a starting point, but if pack A is a more cohesive unit and has a better technique that can easily counter the size of pack B then its game on.

Props are exactly what it says on the tin, they are there to keep the scrum up. Unfortunately many props employ "the dark arts" and will take it down or will drive squint etc to get one over the opposition.

I could go into the various techniques and skills but quite frankly you wont listen and will just insist it's the "fat boys trying to explain why they shouldn’t be thought of as big thickos" - Just like I will always insist that winger stand out on the wing keeping clean and require only 3 mins of fitness for a game.

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