SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST (PART 2)

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Because everyone else is getting a bit excited and the first thread is going to spill over during the match.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Taylorman]

Eddie the hired gun

‘Show me the money beearches’

He’s a genius, god bless that farkin annoying Australian coont

This is the post of the whole tournament

It’s true too. Eddie knew two years ago how to win this. It’s no coincidence he brought Mitchell in, coaches on both sides of the ABs loss in 2003. Mitchell in should have been a red flag, in hindsight.

Hansen heading off down the youth track may have worked later on, but the speed he dropped his experience from Eden park onwards, something we all obviously agreed with as we were winning, mean he took his eyes off the ball.

Jones has prep’d his side to do exactly what Oz did in 2003, deny time and space over the ball, something the English did ‘brilliantly’ adding the getting the ABs over the sideline as a clear plan as the AB manta is you never carry the ball over the sideline.

Hansen appears to have suddenly forgotten the lessons of the past, trying to shake off Wayne Smith and Henry, and do his own thing. He got played by Eddie and England, big time. I’m afraid that may be his legacy. Here at least.

[Rugby Fan]

45 minutes, here, so not a casual listen. The South African has some interesting thoughts on where NZ went awry.

He thinks Hansen should have taken both Mo'unga and Scott Barrett off, and moved Beauden to fly half at an early stage. Finds fault with the two playmaker system which he thinks was really designed for Damian McKenzie, and didn't come off without him. Game would have suited Ben Smith more (though England may have played differently)

Says NZ lacked wings of the quality of in-form Rieko Ioane, Julian Savea or Waisake Naholo. Likes Sam Whitelock but, as someone else in the thread mentioned, he thinks he had one of his worst games.

[robbo277]

Heinz out, Spencer called up.

[Rugby Fan]

Have to think May will be a doubt, and there'll be questions over Farrell. Neither will be 100%. Hope Nowell can be fit to challenge for a place.

[Soul Requiem]

Farrell was just a dead leg so should be fine, I think May depends on who wins the other semi, If it's Wales he'll be given all the time he needs as his aerial prowess could be vital.

[milkyboy]

Not sure Re May. Hard to believe he wouldn’t have run in the interception in the first half yesterday if he had top gear available. They’ll desperately want him to play, but they took a risk yesterday to get us to the final, which may rule him out of it.

[BamBam]

After watching De Allende run all over Biggar for 80 mins, what do with our midfield selection?

[Soul Requiem]

After a turgid second semi final I cannot see how England don't march to victory next weekend.

[lostinwales]

After watching De Allende run all over Biggar for 80 mins, what do with our midfield selection?

He won't get past Tuilagi. Slade was pretty handy in dealing with the Australian power runners too.

[Duty281]

Pointless stat of the day - if England do win next Saturday, they will be the first side to have won the Rugby World Cup without defeating a Five/Six Nations side en route.

[Scottrf]

Are we really worried about SA runners after holding out NZ apart from a missed lineout?

[No 7&1/2]

De allende has destroyed us in the past. If they decide to pass to him rather than kick it away could be a long game.

[BamBam]

After watching De Allende run all over Biggar for 80 mins, what do with our midfield selection?

He won't get past Tuilagi. Slade was pretty handy in dealing with the Australian power runners too.

So does that mean you think Ford to the bench? If Farrell is fit obviously.. That was the angle I was thinking of

[BamBam]

Are we really worried about SA runners after holding out NZ apart from a missed lineout?

Horses for courses

[Scottrf]

Are we really worried about SA runners after holding out NZ apart from a missed lineout?

Horses for courses

Doesn't really work. They have like a quarter of the running threat.

[BamBam]

I hope you're right, but if we get bogged down into a forward arm wrestle I wouldn't fancy seeing De Allende running down Ford's channel. Biggar is a stronger defender and was made to look like a child

[Scottrf]

You'd think we concede two tries from Ford getting run over every game...doesn't happen.

[Soul Requiem]

I hope you're right, but if we get bogged down into a forward arm wrestle I wouldn't fancy seeing De Allende running down Ford's channel. Biggar is a stronger defender and was made to look like a child

When has this ever actually happened?

[milkyboy]

I don’t think there’s much doubt that England are a more complete side, but like most sports you want to play to your strengths and impose them on the opposition. SA want an arm wrestle kick fest and that turns it into a 50:50 game. England can win a war of attrition, but need to avoid it as best as they can. If they do they win, if they don’t? Toss a coin.

[BamBam]

If Eddie wasn't worried about it, Ford would have started against the Aussies

I'm just raising the question on whether he'll do the same again

[Scottrf]

I don’t think there’s much doubt that England are a more complete side, but like most sports you want to play to your strengths and impose them on the opposition. SA want an arm wrestle kick fest and that turns it into a 50:50 game. England can win a war of attrition, but need to avoid it as best as they can. If they do they win, if they don’t? Toss a coin.

How is an arm wrestle kick fest a 50/50? Did you see SA kick chase game today? Pathetic.

[Rinsure]

A Scotsman, Irishman and a Welshman walk into the bar.

Normally this joke has an Englishman.

But he is still at the Rugby World Cup...

[Scottrf]

With the Welshman. Nice try though.

[No name Bertie]

If England are to win the World Cup they would have done it the hard way:
Quarters: Australia
Semis: New Zealand
Finals: South Africa

[lostinwales]

Having watched the game this morning I have considerably more respect for both teams yesterday. NZ were under the cosh for so much of the game but made so many less mistakes than the teams today. They were forced into making bad choices, but England were having to take the ball off them rather than them giving it up, at least until the last quarter.

I almost wonder if one of the problems with both disallowed tries were that they looked too easy and therefore the assumption was that England must have cheated.

(for the record agree with the 1st one being chalked off, not so sure about the 2nd and just glad they didn't make the difference)

[Scottrf]

The real problem with the disallowed tries was that only tries are/were subject to such interrogation. Forensic refereeing. Rest of the game full of offenses.

If you look back enough you'll find something, but you shouldn't be watching 6 replies of events that weren't flagged.

[milkyboy]

Yeh Scott, today Their kick chase was poor, point is it’s often a lottery. We need to vary the attack and move them round the park and not get drawn into playing their game - for which we need to keep the ball.

England are favourites but the ‘better’ team don’t always win.

[milkyboy]

Completely agree on the forensic nature of chalking off tries. If you go back far enough you’ll find something - that’s the nature of the game.

[whatahitson]

What a wonderful game of rugby by England. The New Zealand All Blacks were thoroughly bested and I am unsure whether I have ever seen a better English team. What a marvellous game and congratulations England and Eddie Jones. 1 more game and the Webb Ellis is coming home!

[TightHEAD]

Watched three times already, pure classic

[LondonTiger]

If Eddie wasn't worried about it, Ford would have started against the Aussies

I'm just raising the question on whether he'll do the same again

I am wondering that too, though Mitchell indicated that against Aus it was more protecting Farrell from Kerevi.

[Taylorman]

Having watched the game this morning I have considerably more respect for both teams yesterday. NZ were under the cosh for so much of the game but made so many less mistakes than the teams today. They were forced into making bad choices, but England were having to take the ball off them rather than them giving it up, at least until the last quarter.

I almost wonder if one of the problems with both disallowed tries were that they looked too easy and therefore the assumption was that England must have cheated.

(for the record agree with the 1st one being chalked off, not so sure about the 2nd and just glad they didn't make the difference)

It’s simple, we tried to play an expabpnsive running game versus England. They had full intent of stopping it. Their tries...sorry, try, came from the resulting pressure, not from anything creative.

It’s simply Eddie and Mitchell getting together and recreating 2003. Hansen went against everything that we’ve learned and instead in the last few weeks thought putting youth in for experience would prevail.

England were far to practised, experienced and smart to let that happen. We had the wrong players and the wrong game plan on the park.

England were by far the best team in the tournament from a long preparation point of view, and will win, unless they stuff it up.

SA have won finals they weren’t favourite for. It’s Englands to lose.

[Cyril]

If that ain’t the most mealy-mouthed congratulations on being the better side then I ain’t seen it!

Taylor, why not just admit England played the better rugby. It wasn’t like we just defended all game and you just couldn’t break through. NZ were dominated in all areas, including ball in hand.

[Heaf]

The try came from a line-out on half way within 90 seconds - you seem to have lost the plot a bit tonight TM ...

[TightHEAD]

As I said on another thread England didn't need to get out of 2nd gear, the game was done once we scored the try.

[TightHEAD]

NZ looked like a fat bloke at an all you can eat buffet who has just had a gastric band fitted, not hungry at all.

New coach needed

[Collapse2005]

If that ain’t the most mealy-mouthed congratulations on being the better side then I ain’t seen it!

Taylor, why not just admit England played the better rugby. It wasn’t like we just defended all game and you just couldn’t break through. NZ were dominated in all areas, including ball in hand.

Do you really need someone to tell you England were good?

[LondonTiger]

As I said on another thread England didn't need to get of 2nd gear, the game was done once we scored the try.

Disagree about 2nd gear. We were close to top gear the whole time. NZ created two chances in the game. The Rettallick run that led to Goodhue tackled into touch and the Sevu run that saw him bundled/barged into touch. Both were shut out (though indirectly second led to the NZ try).

England created more chances in the game, by a mixture of fine interplay between forwards and backs, and crushing defence. TMO and some final passes going astray kept the scoreboard lower than it could have been. 5here was some excellent defence by NZ too.

Biggest difference was England won the kicking game to such a large margin that eventually NZ stopped kicking and tried to run their way out of every situation. Arguably the biggest achievement England managed was to force NZ to stop playing like NZ and start playing like Australia.

England do not play like NZ. As Wayne Smith says, instead of copying others, be the best version of you that you can be. England played like England, mixing power and pace, kicking and passing.

It was a phenomenal performance, but one that means nothing if we cannot back it up on 2nd.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Wow impressive LT

[Guest]

Agree entirely that NZ played like Oz. Said it yesterday - why didn't they do prep on the opposition? Why didn't they realise what England were doing from the kick off etc.?

Arrogance? I'd honestly say it's fair here. T actually exhibits the cultural failing of NZ rugby - we're so much better than you, we'll beat you without rolling our sleeves up. They thought that was only relevant for Ireland. Poor prep.

[Heaf]

Even during the match TM was trotting out the arrogant belief that NZ were the only ones that could play at pace and keep it up - problem was England could and did keep it up mostly and they had no answer.

[Taylorman]

If that ain’t the most mealy-mouthed congratulations on being the better side then I ain’t seen it!

Taylor, why not just admit England played the better rugby. It wasn’t like we just defended all game and you just couldn’t break through. NZ were dominated in all areas, including ball in hand.

I did admit they played the better rugby. If you are looking for me to Mush all over it all week then you’re gravely mistaken.

They were better.

Do you see that now?
Can we now not go on about that?

As a NZ fan, and as I’m sure you would do the same, we will now analyse what happened from a NZ point of view. Do you really think out think tanks are going to sit around and say, hey, not point talking about where to from now, we were beaten fair and square. There are no learnings.

No, they’re not. So Im over the loss. I’m onto why we lost...England being the better team is not something we can control. So it’s for us no longer about England. It’s about how we get of this temporary setback, as you know any AB loss has always been a temporary reduction in form, and get back on top, where we normally are 98 % of the time.At least on the last decade or so.

Now as much as you don’t like hearing it, that’s is our reality, and rather than cry about it, we get on with it.

We know England won’t carry on like that into the future, because they never have. They’ve risen to the occasion here, and will probably move on. That’s great.

So will we. But there’s not one sliver of a doubt that NZ will not pick up and go back to it’s winning ways.

Why, because we always do.

[majesticimperialman]

Re the Haka. I thought the Haka was simply to get New Zealand pumped up for a big game.

It is supposed to be a  challenge to the opposition, (Well come to the battle )of  New z
Zealand rugby.

[Taylorman]

Agree entirely that NZ played like Oz. Said it yesterday - why didn't they do prep on the opposition? Why didn't they realise what England were doing from the kick off etc.?

Arrogance? I'd honestly say it's fair here. T actually exhibits the cultural failing of NZ rugby - we're so much better than you, we'll beat you without rolling our sleeves up. They thought that was only relevant for Ireland. Poor prep.

Got over your swearing rant have you. Sounds medical.

Agree on not doing the prep for the opposition. That was exactly our failing.

And sorry Miaow, 31 wins in a row vs your side is not just so much better than you. That’s another hemisphere altogether. Is there a worse record in sport, certainly a tier one record, probably by about 20.

In fact I think the boys should go out drunk and see if they can give the third to you. Probably win then as well.

[Taylorman]

Re the Haka. I thought the Haka was simply to get New Zealand pumped up for a big game.

It is supposed to be a  challenge to the opposition, (Well come to the battle )of  New z
Zealand rugby.

Geez the humility, something I get accused of often, is catchy isn’t it madge? Good one. Best of the day.

[Taylorman]

As I said on another thread England didn't need to get of 2nd gear, the game was done once we scored the try.

Disagree about 2nd gear. We were close to top gear the whole time. NZ created two chances in the game. The Rettallick run that led to Goodhue tackled into touch and the Sevu run that saw him bundled/barged into touch. Both were shut out (though indirectly second led to the NZ try).

England created more chances in the game, by a mixture of fine interplay between forwards and backs, and crushing defence. TMO and some final passes going astray kept the scoreboard lower than it could have been. 5here was some excellent defence by NZ too.

Biggest difference was England won the kicking game to such a large margin that eventually NZ stopped kicking and tried to run their way out of every situation. Arguably the biggest achievement England managed was to force NZ to stop playing like NZ and start playing like Australia.

England do not play like NZ. As Wayne Smith says, instead of copying others, be the best version of you that you can be. England played like England, mixing power and pace, kicking and passing.

It was a phenomenal performance, but one that means nothing if we cannot back it up on 2nd.

Yes but top gear doesn’t get the peacock feathers out pumping and glistening LT. TH needs those to walk down the street, chest out, proud

Wayne Smith was right, which is why Hansen needs to accept what he did was a regression of that thinking. He ripped out the experienced players within two months of the tournament. Of course we all bought it, but he said beforehand he’s going all eggs in one basket. It was a common discussion that things might fall off when Smith left.

[Guest]

[Cyril]

It’s just interesting that we heard that NZ would play with a pace and intensity that England couldn’t live with, when actually England ramped it up and NZ were found wanting.

Better players with a better plan, all over the park.

[Heaf]

Nah - England didn't play fair - they used negative tactics like tackling the ABs rather than stand around admiring their moves ... and accidentally scoring within 90 seconds, I mean how negative is that?

[Taylorman]

It’s really funny how fans get all pumped up when after years they finally get to beat the ABs. They can’t hold themselves back. I guess it doesn’t happen very often, like opening a Christmas presents I guess.

All good. Enjoy the final. Let’s hope it wasn’t as dreary as either of Wales two knockout matches.

Wales can have 3 and 4. Means a lot less will go to their graves not seeing a win over the ABs, that’s gott a be good huh? Best chance now given we’re apparently so hopeless.

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