The Original - England v All Blacks - KO 14:30 Sat 1st DEC at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

by HERSH Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:14 am

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA 15-16 We was robbed, by our Captain this time.
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

by HERSH Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:17 am

I think England might cause an upset for this one. Wink

by Cyril Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:23 am

Do you think Wales will soften them up for us, Hersh?

by HERSH Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:26 am

A little help from Wales would be great.

I said all along that England would lose to either SA or Aus but beat the All Blacks this year.

by **Biltong** Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:49 am

England is going to be up against it.

After this weekend they will have to beat the all Blacks.

Naas botha said we will win, and I beleive him. Whistle

by Geordie Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:27 am

Before judging the All Blacks game is it not worthwhile watching the Boks game.... Headscratch

by screamingaddabs Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:56 am

First of all, what a game that was against SA! I thought we were going to win at half time but the Bok fightback was unbelivable.

A real shame the result was never found out because of that North Korean terrorist/robot invasion, still, I'm sure the Koreans won't mess with us again after Tuilagi and Etzebeth demolished their robot attack force like that. I've heard they may have accidentally created a rift in the space time continuum though.

Apparently some guy called harsh or purse or something has found some kind of way of sorting out the time line though with some kind of time machine - called a 606v2 massage beard or something. Hopefully he won't accidentally merge the time lines though, that game wouldn't have been the same if you knew what was going to happen!

I think we stand a great chance against NZ now we have given some of the Korean terrorist robots residency qualification. RT3657 looks like an excellent prospect at half back.

by **Biltong** Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:10 am

I've got the highlights if you want.

by Duty281 Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:24 pm

We're gonna outkick the All Blacks and win on a brilliant defensive effort. Absolutely no pressure on England so the score will be:

England 25-21 New Zealand.

by **LondonTiger** Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Biltong wrote:
I've got the highlights if you want.

Just do not blink - or you will miss them.

by Morgannwg Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:09 pm

Well my last thread regarding this game was locked thanks to idiots dragging it off topic. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.
Doh

England 54 - Fiji
England 14 - 20 Australia
England 15 - 16 South Africa

Scotland 22 - 51 New Zealand
Italy 10 - 42 New Zealand
Wales 10 - 33 New Zealand

England - New Zealand

Robshaw's decision making as captain has left much to be discussed about this England team. As have some of the performances in their last three games.

NZ usually get better as they come to end of these NH tours. They have not lost a game in 20 years or something ridiculous like that. Thompson could return but the All Blacks may be without Andrew Hore and are sweating over the injuries of a few others. We could see a similar team to the one that took on Scotland.

by Duty281 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:10 pm

Absolutely no need for that opening salvo Morgan, stop trying to stir the pot.

by majesticimperialman Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:13 pm

I have gone for England 1 - 7 point win.

The only reason i have gone for this score is baed on how close England was to beating South Africa.

So go Morgannwg take the micky.

by Morgannwg Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:14 pm

You're welcome to your vote (whatever it may be) maj. I think it's too soon to be predicting but this thread will still be here when the teams are announced. That's unless more Wales obsessors come in, drag it off topic and get the thread locked. Again.

by Duty281 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:16 pm

Well done Morgan clap

You get the first mention of Wales in the thread. Which is obviously your overall aim here.

by Morgannwg Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Please discuss the game, your team or opponents Duty.

by **Biltong** Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:24 pm

On topic please gentlemen.

by Duty281 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:25 pm

Yes boss. England outplayed South Africa physically and tactically, if they carry that forward and make a fast start (like yesterday) then I fancy England to edge it. I've just got a good feeling.

by **Biltong** Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:31 pm

If England execute their tactics then they stand a chance. I have seen this whole autumn they went wide too early. I know it is a cliche but they mus earn the right to go wide.

Look at the Fiji game as an example in the first half England went wide immediately and wasted their energy on attack without much success.

It was only in the second half when they planned better, were more patient on attack that the caught the Fijian defence out.

The same applied to OZ ans SA, you can't create overlaps against organised defence if you are impatient to go wide and don't earn the right first.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:32 pm

Can we merge with the pre-existing identical thread?

https://www.606v2.com/t37586-england-v-all-blacks-ko-1430-sat-1st-dec-at-hq-match-thread-build-up-etc

by HERSH Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:32 pm

Please please drop Ashton he has lost his mojo.

60-70mins on the bench might help to sort out his head.

by Morgannwg Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:36 pm

Hmmm, I didn't see that one.

by OzT Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Do you know what, I have a feeling England may do the one over the kiwis this game. just rewatched the hightlights against the boks and whilst they were not penetrating at all, the basis of a side is there in the forwards. I think they will stand up better against the kiwis then the Welsh did, and no i am not trying to do a Welsh vs English thread. but the english side as a unit looked more cohesive then the other home nation side so far. The advantage they have over the Welsh i think is they have a steady coach.

The kiwis' front row will look suspect I think, and half back too. The English wingers are a match for the kiwis in speed if not in all round ability, though the kiwi centres are much bettter, and if they play to their strength of forwards, why not back to 10 men rugby, and can kick... always farrel to come on for that, I have a feeling they may win it. so much so I think i will change my AI game prediction and change the win for England, but will wait till tomorrow to see if I feel the same...

by nobbled Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:39 pm

HERSH wrote:Please please drop Ashton he has lost his mojo.

60-70mins on the bench might help to sort out his head.

Hate to say it - as the guy can be class, but I have to agree. Who to replace him though? Monye with Wade on the left? Brown wasn't as bad as you thought he was going to be was he?

by HERSH Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:41 pm

Brown didn't win us the game nor did he lose it, but call me old fashioned I like outright Wingers on the Wings

By the way I did vote for an England win by 1-5. thumbsdown

Scrap that I'm in the 10++ group now. thumbsup

by OzT Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:44 pm

Wingers to be on the wing is a good enough call, but look at the high scoring wingers like Peterson, Ashton, all the kiwis ones, they all come infield to look for the ball. Or maybe they just got too cold waiting out there on the wing ...

by HERSH Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:45 pm

Ashton used too!

by OzT Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:46 pm

true...

by Barney McGrew did it Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:46 pm

England call up Tom Biggs (Bath), Freddie Burns and Nick Wood (both Gloucester) ahead of game against New Zealand

by nobbled Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:47 pm

HERSH wrote:Brown didn't win us the game nor did he lose it, but call me old fashioned I like outright Wingers on the Wings

You're old fashioned! But not wrong. Although the occasional mutant can do well there too (to quote Will Carling).

by kingjohn7 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:48 pm

I gone for NZ by 5-10. Think it will be about 10ish. Cant see England beating the All Blacks but will give them a tough day at the office. So a relatively comfortable but hard earned victory(if that even makes sense)

by fa0019 Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Bringing in Farrell for flood may be good on England's defence... A bigger unit then flood and will need to be with nonu flying in.

Can't wait to see Manu and nonu squaring up for 80mins.

England have to make a few tweaks to the side though...brown cant play that's for sure....he'll be murdered for pace all game. Not fully agreeing on putting Manu out there... His pace isn't quite there but with sharpies looking a little poor in defence I'm not sure who else there is....can you play Joseph at wing?

I would seriously consider Haskell in for Morgan as well. England need more dog at the breakdown for this one and Morgan is a bit too much flash for me at the moment... He knows a lot of the players too so his experience on field will be very helpful.

by sickofwendy Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:01 pm

Is biggs playing better than wade or varndell?is monye injured or been dropped?long overdue for nick wood,he should of had about 10 of Tim paynes caps.

by OzT Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:04 pm

But better to start with flood to maybe score tries before falling on farrell to do the steady, and to kick the goals going by last Saturday

by fa0019 Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:05 pm

Flood is probably out with a broken toe..... Otherwise sure start with flood.

by EnglishReign Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:08 pm

Interesting. I expected Burns to replace Flood but who is Biggs replacing? I rate Biggs, but Wade and Varndell are on fire at the moment.

by GavinDragon Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:13 pm

I think it will be a close game. However my concern is will England have enough creativity/attacking edge to score tries against the AB's?

I only saw the second half of the SA game and Eng dominated possession but didnt look like making any clean line breaks?

Where do english fans think their incisiveness will come from? Because IMO no team is able to defend themselves to victory against this AB side.

And when I say 'defend themselves to victory' I mean defend well put pressure on and kick goals

by Barney McGrew did it Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:21 pm

"Winger Biggs replaces Ugo Monye (calf injury), fly-half Burns comes in as cover for Toby Flood (toe) and prop Wood is in for Alex Cobisiero (knee)."

by majesticimperialman Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:25 pm

I will be glad if Burns get the start ahead of Farrel. will be nice to see Biggs get a run out aswell.

by blackcanelion Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:30 pm

I have to admit to being a little bit nervous. I am still confident the AB's will win but the caveats are:
1: England look competitive. 2 narrow losses to the Boks and wallabies which could have gone the other way. I think this is potentially a good England side.
2: England aren't under as much pressure to win due to to lower expectations bought about by 4 losses in the last 6 games.
3: The injury toll is mounting in key positions (flyhalf and hooker)
4: 2 reprehensible acts by All Black players on tour have fed the British media, will reinforce bigoted stereotypes and have the ability to put pressure on the referees.
5: We are due our 1 in 10 year loss to England. It's the last game in a long year. The saying is the players have one foot on the plane already.

by Big Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:39 pm

blackcanelion wrote:I have to admit to being a little bit nervous. I am still confident the AB's will win but the caveats are:
1: England look competitive. 2 narrow losses to the Boks and wallabies which could have gone the other way. I think this is potentially a good England side.
2: England aren't under as much pressure to win due to to lower expectations bought about by 4 losses in the last 6 games.
3: The injury toll is mounting in key positions (flyhalf and hooker)
4: 2 reprehensible acts by All Black players on tour have fed the British media, will reinforce bigoted stereotypes and have the ability to put pressure on the referees.
5: We are due our 1 in 10 year loss to England. It's the last game in a long year. The saying is the players have one foot on the plane already.

You should be alright on point 5 - it's only 9 years since our last win...

I think that if anything will make England dangerous it's 2 and 3. If the lack of pressure means the team keep their composure then they should be able to put in a decent performance. I think the key is how they react if or rather when New Zealand get their first score. If they panic for 10 minutes they will conceed 2 or 3 more and the game will be beyond them, but if they stay composed they might be able to cause New Zealand some problems.

by sirtidychris Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:30 pm

England will get smashed I cant see any other result. We have no attack at all, with our two playmakers (Farrell and Goode) only able to execute gary owens or chip overs with virtually no ability to take the ball on and run it with flair. We will spend the entire game kicking the ball to Dagg, Savea and Jane who will tear our backline apart and our back row will be outcompeted at the breakdown. The only place I can see us having an edge is the scrum, but i doubt this will be enough for a major advantage.

How anyone can see us winning this when we lost against two very average and sluggish saffa and ozzie teams i don't know ! seriously look at this team and the form they have coming into this game and they will up it to another level for england as well !

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Cory Jane, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma'a Nonu, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Aaron Cruden, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 6 Liam Messam, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Luke Romano, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Hika Elliot 1 Tony Woodcock.

by blackcanelion Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:42 pm

sirtidychris wrote:England will get smashed I cant see any other result. We have no attack at all, with our two playmakers (Farrell and Goode) only able to execute gary owens or chip overs with virtually no ability to take the ball on and run it with flair. We will spend the entire game kicking the ball to Dagg, Savea and Jane who will tear our backline apart and our back row will be outcompeted at the breakdown. The only place I can see us having an edge is the scrum, but i doubt this will be enough for a major advantage.

How anyone can see us winning this when we lost against two very average and sluggish saffa and ozzie teams i don't know ! seriously look at this team and the form they have coming into this game and they will up it to another level for england as well !

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Cory Jane, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma'a Nonu, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Aaron Cruden, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 6 Liam Messam, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Luke Romano, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Hika Elliot 1 Tony Woodcock.

I don't think you necessarily have to have gifted playmakers. England's strength, I would submit, is built around securing and holding possession. I think if you can play in NZ's half of the field, hold onto the ball and hold you defensive line you are in with a shot.

If Woodcock and Mealamu pull up this week we could have a relatively inexperienced tight five. that's going to influence our ability to contest for primary possession and deal with mauls.

As usual, the referee's interpretation of the breakdown will have an influence. Both sides infringe in different ways. England are probably better than any other side in getting bodies on the ground over and around the ball. From their perspective, this will allow them to both secure their own ball, slow NZ ball and compete for turnovers.

If Taylor or Bowden play, we are going to have a Rookie at flyhalf. Interesting times.

by GavinDragon Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:56 am

blackcanelion wrote:
sirtidychris wrote:England will get smashed I cant see any other result. We have no attack at all, with our two playmakers (Farrell and Goode) only able to execute gary owens or chip overs with virtually no ability to take the ball on and run it with flair. We will spend the entire game kicking the ball to Dagg, Savea and Jane who will tear our backline apart and our back row will be outcompeted at the breakdown. The only place I can see us having an edge is the scrum, but i doubt this will be enough for a major advantage.

How anyone can see us winning this when we lost against two very average and sluggish saffa and ozzie teams i don't know ! seriously look at this team and the form they have coming into this game and they will up it to another level for england as well !

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Cory Jane, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma'a Nonu, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Aaron Cruden, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 6 Liam Messam, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Luke Romano, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Hika Elliot 1 Tony Woodcock.

I don't think you necessarily have to have gifted playmakers. England's strength, I would submit, is built around securing and holding possession. I think if you can play in NZ's half of the field, hold onto the ball and hold you defensive line you are in with a shot.

If Woodcock and Mealamu pull up this week we could have a relatively inexperienced tight five. that's going to influence our ability to contest for primary possession and deal with mauls.

As usual, the referee's interpretation of the breakdown will have an influence. Both sides infringe in different ways. England are probably better than any other side in getting bodies on the ground over and around the ball. From their perspective, this will allow them to both secure their own ball, slow NZ ball and compete for turnovers.

If Taylor or Bowden play, we are going to have a Rookie at flyhalf. Interesting times.

But this is the question, can any team beat the AB by just applying pressure in this way? Granted if any team can do it it will be England as it suits their natural game. However I think the AB's are just to clinical and threatening from all areas of the park for it to work

by Taylorman Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:17 am

Said all along this would be the one we lose if any.

The uproar with Hore might have the unexpected effect of bonding this side even more for the England match in that the ABs will be determined even more than ever to let their rugby, rather than any thuggery, do their talking for them.

They will want to leave the UK with their ability to play rugby as the last impression of this side.

by maestegmafia Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:09 am

The ABs have called up a few replacements pos Wales match. Two hookers missing, dan carter possibly Cruden, Woodcock almost certainly out.

England have a great chance to GEt back to winning ways.

by Taylorman Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:17 am

Yes youre right. That is the question every side should be asking.
bcs point is if were stretched we could have some rookies all through the side. That on top of the fact that many others are learning the trade as well.

Savea, cruden, smith, one lock all new this year. Add a few more and some of the the hardness is eroded, perhaps enough for England to take advantage of.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:18 am

Even without the likes of DC et al England will have to be a whole lot smarter than they were on Saturday to win.

Decsion making throughout was appalling. There were some positives from the game for England, but also some real negatives, and I just don't see us beating New Zealand this weekend.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:29 am

I am going to merge this thread with https://www.606v2.com/t37586-england-v-all-blacks-ko-1430-sat-1st-dec-at-hq-match-thread-build-up-etc as it's pointless having 2 identical threads.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:29 am

I am going to merge this with https://www.606v2.com/t37733-england-vs-new-zealand-match-day-thread-pre-and-post-game-discussion#1703148 as it is pointless having 2 identical threads.

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Who will win and by how much?