Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:We need to identify a FB and a 12 critically...

Scrum half is more important imo. We need someone to come in, talk the hind legs of the pack to make them do the right things and have a decent all round game. Youngs has had ups and downs for England but until the final had never fallen apart as he did then under pressure.

Agree SH is the priority. Youngs has always has a terrible, slow pass and it's made life difficult for us. Priority is a SH who can get the ball out from rucks with laser accuracy, rapidly, everything else - box-kicking, sniping, tackling etc. comes second for me.

miaow wrote:Joe Simmonds isn't test quality in my opinion. Not unless England are really short on options.

I agree that Farrell isn't the ideal captain but I also cannot see a better options now Hartley's gone. It's basically Farrell or Itoje by the looks of things, and Itoje is still a few years away. I said I wonder what kind of job Underhill might do in the shirt but ultimately lots of pressure on him, perhaps too much, just to start. You don't need a team of captains but I honestly cannot see an outstanding candidate for England, which is rare, and the first time I think I've ever thought that. Even when Vickery and Pat Sanderson (!?) were named captain, briefly, it was clear there were better alternatives. Not sure there are in this team. Jamie George? No. Props? No. Launchbury maybe if he was a starter? But atm he's not even a 23 option. Billy? Nope. Curry? No. Underhill or Itoje the only two in the pack as I can see it. Or maybe Mark Wilson as a stop gap? Not ridiculous but probably more of a lieutenant, not one to call the shots. Youngs/another 9? Nope. Any outstanding back? That's where Farrell comes in.

Mark Wilson is a cracking captain, however isnt a starter and with the talent coming through not likely to be either so that rules him out.
I agree with the rest aside from Curry. He looks a very assured young man, who is almost certainly a starter now and is only going to get better...but again...not for now...its a year or two down the line i would say.

So as to right now...6n, i guess we stay with Farrell, or we say sod it and plump for Itoje.

If Jones is still the coach captain will be Farrell or ford if hes not available. No real need for change there unless he just wants to mix it up.

I'd be disappointed if wilson is still around if willis and Dombrandt are fit. For me against Italy Scotland and one of Ireland and wales I'd like to see vunipola rested and Dombrandt or Mercer start. Willis needs caps from the bench.

But the only thing against Wilson's continual involvement is his age. At the moment he's a kind of universal sticking plaster as he can do a decent job across the back 5 of the scrum. He's also got the engine and intelligence that makes for a fantastic work rate and helps the players around him perform better.

I dont see the point in dropping underhill or curry though.

I think it isn't just age - whilst I think he is possibly the best out and out 6 we currently have - Jones seems to favour the Curry/Underhill combination, so he will struggle to get in the team. Plus whilst he is great cover for the back 5, as I have said previously I would prefer a specialist 8 alternative to Billy rather than using Wilson as a stop gap.

You wont find a bigger fan of Wilson than me...but i do think his time in the Senior squad is probably limited now, despite how good he is. Although...Jones does like his steel hard back rowers...and Mark is the epitome of that.

He will certainly be in the 6n squad i would have thought.

i agree Dombrandt and probably Mercer need a run out this 6n...Billy needs competition and maybe England need a player who can allow them a slight variation in style when required...

Willis will probably get a run out aswell if he keeps his form up. he's some player.

All these battles are going to be fascinating to watch.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dont see the point in dropping underhill or curry though.

That isnt going to happen...only if Willis or Dombrandt come in at 6.

So would you agree....

1 Mako
2 George
3 Sinkler
Front row generally in decent health. Genge and LCD need to push on a level as replacements who can challenge to start. Is Cole still a good replacement for TH?

4 & 5 Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury
Locks generally in rude health. Noone coming through at the moment should challenge them.

6 & 7 Curry and Underhill have the places...but Willis, T'Other Curry and a few others will challenge. Wilson will be about the squad for the moment as a tough experienced guy who can cover all 3 spots.

8 - Billy, but Dombrandt and Mercer will now give him some competition.

9 - Problem 1. Wide open...Youngs not really pulling up trees for a long time now. But who can make that shirt their own.

10 Farrell and Ford have this nailed for the moment...but Grayson etc are devloping nicely

12 - Problem 2 - Farrell is covering it...but we need a set in stone 12 in there.
Francis? Devoto? etc...are any up to the level?

13 Manu, but there are some pretty talented players coming through...Marchant is already a classy player and will gain huge experience from his stint in NZ. Joseph is another quality 13. Slade not really taking the oppertunity IMO.

11&14&15 We have a huge array of wings. May is set in stone on one...for me one of the best wings in the world. But who partners him on the other.

Then theres problem number 3 - Full back.
The Daly trial needs to stop. Watson or Nowell look the most likely...unless an orthodox FB comes through quickly.

Daly is either a winger...or utility bench man.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So would you agree....

1 Mako
2 George
3 Sinkler
Front row generally in decent health. Genge and LCD need to push on a level as replacements who can challenge to start. Is Cole still a good replacement for TH?

4 & 5 Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury
Locks generally in rude health. Noone coming through at the moment should challenge them.

6 & 7 Curry and Underhill have the places...but Willis, T'Other Curry and a few others will challenge. Wilson will be about the squad for the moment as a tough experienced guy who can cover all 3 spots.

8 - Billy, but Dombrandt and Mercer will now give him some competition.

9 - Problem 1. Wide open...Youngs not really pulling up trees for a long time now. But who can make that shirt their own.

10 Farrell and Ford have this nailed for the moment...but Grayson etc are devloping nicely

12 - Problem 2 - Farrell is covering it...but we need a set in stone 12 in there.
Francis? Devoto? etc...are any up to the level?

13 Manu, but there are some pretty talented players coming through...Marchant is already a classy player and will gain huge experience from his stint in NZ. Joseph is another quality 13.

11&14&15 We have a huge array of wings. May is set in stone on one...for me one of the best wings in the world. But who partners him on the other.

Then theres problem number 3 - Full back.
The Daly trial needs to stop. Watson or Nowell look the most likely...unless an orthodox FB comes through quickly.

Daly is either a winger...or utility bench man.

Cole is good for now, the question is do you start bringing in player who will be around for the next world cup before the Japan tests or let him get his 100 caps in the 6 nations

Locks similar issue, there could be a case for capping Isiekwe or whoever is the hot kid, Lawes is young and good enough to make the Lions but right on the edge for the world cup. Id say less likely for a change, but take a new cap to Japan. 

Agree on the backrow, but there will be new caps and fringe players in Japan. 

SH yep, its been evident that Jones doesnt think a great deal of Robson and Spencer, but it is an area where you feel they could make an improvement for consistency if nothing else. Wigglesworth and Heinz are too old for anything more than short termism. Youngs for the 6 nations, then see how the kids get on in Japan. 

10-13 talked to death. Short term Farrell will have one of those shirts, and theres not a stand out 10 to come in. Tuillagi is the other name its hard to see not getting a spot. Which means a one shirt for a 10/12/13 or possibly just more of the same for the 6 nations, then a radically different midfield for the summer break. Unless theres specific clauses in his contract then Marchants ruled himself out short term with the super rugby loan, would be available for the Japan trip mind. 

Wings ...could be decided by Watson as a full back or if England try a proper one. Daly could still be a wing or a 13.

It is probably controversial, but I think would maybe look at starting somebody like like Dombrandt ahead of Billy in the Six Nations. We seem to spend a lot of time trying to cope without Billy or with the fact that he is just returning to fitness and I would really like England to find someone to genuinely challenge him.

Billy as well seems like he needs more competition, we know he can be better then he was in the rwc. Dombrandt has been great in a poor quins team.

I'd argue that Daly might not be a winger, either. His aerial game is probably more exploitable at 11 than it is at 15.

I think Billy has been off form and nowhere near as effective as he has been in the past. He is a class player, but to me he's no better at 80% than someone like Dombrandt at 100%. Mercer's showing some good form too. I wouldn't be surprised to see both of those young tyros in the squad come January, and as stated above, blood them against Italy. It won't do them much harm, and if England get on the front foot, then a powerhouse like Dombrandt or a more athletic 8 such as Mercer will have a field day. It'll be entertaining, that's for sure. If Dombrandt were to continue playing like he did against the Barbarians earlier this year, and Mercer carries on playing like he is, our No.8 backup coffers will be rich and plentiful.

If there's one thing I would like to address about our scrum, it's the scrummaging ability of one Mako Vunipola. For all the wonderful things he does with the ball in hand, it's rather poorly offset by his set piece. He's never been a classic scrummager like Marler, and he has an annoying habit of going straight to ground when under any form of pressure. Malherbe had him for breakfast, mid-morning snack, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner in the World Cup Final. It was painful to watch. I would like to see him knuckle down with some grizzled old front rowers and get some extra coaching. It won't take much hopefully, but he needs that extra edge.

At 9, I would like to see more chances given to Robson, Spencer, Mitchell, Maunder and, if he eventually comes back from injury, maybe Vellacott. Youngs is ok, but he's nothing like his old self. Heinz in my opinion is playing better than Benny boy overall.

As for Daly, he needs to be at 13 or 23. Nowhere else. We have a rich vein of decent players at 13 in Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly and Slade with Marchant in the background ready to come back for the Japanese tour. Eddie Jones needs to stop selecting Daly at FB. Elliot looked like a little boy lost in the RWC Final whilst Willie Le Roux looked perfectly at home. Let's look at some of the actual Full Backs, rather than wingers who can "do a job". Nowell and/or Watson at least play there for their clubs regularly - Daly did not. Is Malins still injured? What about Hammersley?

And there's also the age-old question of 12. Why is it so difficult for England to find this seemingly mythical beast? Nearly every rugby nation has a specialist 12 apart from us since about 2005. With us it just seems to be a 10 at 12 or a 13 that's moved in (Tuilagi). I was beginning to think that Slade might be that guy 4 years ago but no, he's now a 13 both for club and country. It's bizarre. Pretty much the only proper 12 seems to be Francis and whilst he's never let anyone down for England, he's hardly set the world on fire either.

As for retirements, there's no real talk of any England players permanently hanging them up. Dan Cole is definitely in his twilight years, but I can see him doing at least another year. Marler may not fancy another year at the International coalface and could go back to club and family, this time staying there. There are a few players pushing the 30 barrier in Wilson, Youngs and Lawes, but nobody looks likely to say "Adios". The majority of this squad could be back in 4 years' time with a whole lot more experience, a few new faces and a point to prove. It's exciting.

I'd be interested to see what Isiekwe can add in the second row. I think he's a natural successor to Lawes as a line-out leader who offers a lot in the loose.

Mercer offers a very different skill set to Billy which I think could be a good thing for this side. The tactical difference of Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi compared to Farrell-Tuilagi-Slade has seen this team develop variety in the backs. The forwards currently lack that.

I can't really see any real pressure on the current locks. Theres a couple of younger guys who could easily cover but I dont think they're better than the 4 now.

I suspect with BVP its more a case of being beaten up and playing at 90% fitness than a lack of competition. We've seen a lot of players have dips in their effectiveness. 
It was only his carrying that was a disappointment too, and yes maybe he was being targeted a bit by defences aware that he was Englands go to guy for hard yards. 
He may need resting, and certainly will get that over the summer. Theres definitely room for other 8s to get a look in too, England have long struggled to find anyone who really does more than act as a fill in when hes not there. 
The Jones style has very much been to look at players who maybe arent there yet but he feels have a lot to give in the future, and thats one of the reasons England have ended up with a squad young enough that almost every player is a possible for the next world cup. 
Im less aware of Dombrant than others seem to be, but if hes the hot young thing would be good to see him get a trot out in the 6 nations and be first choice for Japan. Looking at his Quins profile though hes spent half the season on the bench and been hauled off early a couple of times, is he really tearing up trees that much?

Dombrant has been rotated on quite a few games with Chisholm at Quins - I wouldn't read too much into his bench time.
He is a large abrasive player that runs some excellent lines and has enough of a turn of pace to finish off the opportunities he gets.
The surprising thing is how good he is after coming in straight from Uni rugby.

As said above, he is a different sort of 8 to Billy. Same with Mercer. All 3 bring something different to the table.
Could also add Sam Simmons into the mix at 8.

Sam Underhill (23), Tom Curry (21) and Alex Dombrandt (22) is a disgustingly young back-row! A new 'holy trinity'? They could be around for the best part of a decade (injury permitting).

Dombrandt looks good when carrying, especially in open spaces. He was released from the pre WC training squads with instructions to work on defence, fitness and ruck clear out.

Any one seen this? https://youtu.be/nNrwrL2Ep8U

Sums up the semi-final really well and hints at exactly where we go wrong in the following game. Fwiw I think he's the best analyst out there.

We are exceptional if we get the start we want. If not and especially if it's a ref who allows a messy breakdown the we struggle.

I am interested to see if jones gets someone in to replace wisemantel. We went a long time without someone there and for me he made a hugely positive impact.

yappysnap wrote:Any one seen this? https://youtu.be/nNrwrL2Ep8U

Sums up the semi-final really well and hints at exactly where we go wrong in the following game. Fwiw I think he's the best analyst out there.

We are exceptional if we get the start we want. If not and especially if it's a ref who allows a messy breakdown the we struggle.

I agree. I think it tends to be fairly underestimated how much a favorable ref can make a difference to teams.

Who's the most realistic prospect to replace EJ? In 18 months or whenever it is. Unlikely to be McCall now, let's be honest. I don't think Baxter will go for it. Who's left? O'Shea?

Why not start a thread on it.

Rob Howley?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why not start a thread on it.

It's all relevant to the discussion. Chill, dear.

It's not on refreshing the side for the 6 nations so no. Why not try to contribute rather than derail miaow? I'll create one for you like you did Taylor.

Yes, why not contribute rather than derail. An excellent point. One thread in 6 years and now you're policing contributions...whooosh.

Why do people take their stress out on this site at the end of the week? First Tman going off the deep end, now you...

Cumbrian wrote:Sam Underhill (23), Tom Curry (21) and Alex Dombrandt (22) is a disgustingly young back-row!  A new 'holy trinity'?  They could be around for the best part of a decade (injury permitting).

Willis might have something to say aswell and he's only young.

Scary the potential coming through in that back row.

Ive been impressed with Sam Simmonds aswell. He just offers so much explosiveness despite his lack of real size for an 8. Maybe the perfect bench cover for the back row?

Willis was playing with the baby brother as well at the weekend.

miaow wrote:Yes, why not contribute rather than derail. An excellent point. One thread in 6 years and now you're policing contributions...whooosh.

Why do people take their stress out on this site at the end of the week? First Tman going off the deep end, now you...

Can't help but wonder if there is a common theme in all of this.

lostinwales wrote:

miaow wrote:Yes, why not contribute rather than derail. An excellent point. One thread in 6 years and now you're policing contributions...whooosh.

Why do people take their stress out on this site at the end of the week? First Tman going off the deep end, now you...

Can't help but wonder if there is a common theme in all of this.

The standard of 606 has been on decline since roughly 2012, when it became clear the tolerance for trolling was much higher than the BBC accepted, thus the concentration of good posters to trolls/WUMs became more and more diluted as the trolls took over.

How's that for you? Or would you like the kiddie menu?

To momentarily believe Jones' suggestion the saracens players may miss the 6 nations it does open the door for the supporting cast. Potentially missing: mako vunipola
George
Kruis
Itoje
Billy vunipola
Spencer
Farrell
Daly.

Suddenly gives a very different feel to the team.

miaow wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

miaow wrote:Yes, why not contribute rather than derail. An excellent point. One thread in 6 years and now you're policing contributions...whooosh.

Why do people take their stress out on this site at the end of the week? First Tman going off the deep end, now you...

Can't help but wonder if there is a common theme in all of this.

The standard of 606 has been on decline since roughly 2012, when it became clear the tolerance for trolling was much higher than the BBC accepted, thus the concentration of good posters to trolls/WUMs became more and more diluted as the trolls took over.

How's that for you? Or would you like the kiddie menu?

I think you've just proven the point with that last comment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To momentarily believe Jones' suggestion the saracens players may miss the 6 nations it does open the door for the supporting cast. Potentially missing: mako vunipola
George
Kruis
Itoje
Billy vunipola
Spencer
Farrell
Daly.

Suddenly gives a very different feel to the team.

Of those who are replaceable and who are not?

George - Best hooker by a country mile...though LCD improving
Kruis - We should be able to cope
Itoje - A MASSIVE loss
Billy - Well we said his comptetion needed games...so Dombrandt / Mercer / Simmonds all get a look in - Could work in Englands favour
Spencer - hasnt played so wont be missed - it will be Youngs
Farrell - A huge loss...but allows us to look at other options at 10 and 12
Daly - Not loss in the side...but huge los as the utility bench.

So effectively 3 of those will be really missed.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To momentarily believe Jones' suggestion the saracens players may miss the 6 nations it does open the door for the supporting cast. Potentially missing: mako vunipola
George
Kruis
Itoje
Billy vunipola
Spencer
Farrell
Daly.

Suddenly gives a very different feel to the team.

Of those who are replaceable and who are not?

George - Best hooker by a country mile...though LCD improving
Kruis - We should be able to cope
Itoje - A MASSIVE loss
Billy - Well we said his comptetion needed games...so Dombrandt / Mercer / Simmonds all get a look in - Could work in Englands favour
Spencer - hasnt played so wont be missed - it will be Youngs
Farrell - A huge loss...but allows us to look at other options at 10 and 12
Daly - Not loss in the side...but huge los as the utility bench.

So effectively 3 of those will be really missed.

Missed out Mako, GF. He'd be a massive loss - do we know if Marler is returning to retirement? If so it leaves Genge, and...

Ah yes...Mako is a big loss i agree. Marler is probably in retirement again...

So are we pinning our hopes on Genge?

IF Saracens players were kept out of the 6n it would be quite an experimental England side...

For me Genge is class and will be pushing anyway. Doubt marler will retire now but for mena look at Obano would be good. Issue at hooker is the next in line would be singleton....who would be ruled out.

Ah yes i forgot about Obano...good shout 7.5

But that means some raw LH's in the team / squad.

I'm liking the way that young Will Stuart has started the season at Bath. He's a tighthead but could compete with Sinckler and Williams for the 3 shirt.

Just to be clear there is no way Saracens players can be kept out of the 6 nations even if they wanted to be. Saracens have to release them and its the England doctors that have final say on their fitness under the EPS. It was a rather odd comment from Jones, just seems to be an off the cuff mumbling thats been blown up on a short news day. 

There will be an experimental England travelling to Japan this summer with the regular starters in the world cup getting a promised rest. Thats when we will see who the reserve props are, if Cole still has a long term future and if Marlers retiring again. Its still not clear if Marler make himself available for the six nations or not as it wont have a huge impact on his family life as he'd be travelling with his club anyway, but going to Japan in the summer sounds like exactly the sort of touring he doesn't want to do anymore.  

Might even get to find out if theres a third/fourth option at FH, assuming Ciprianis ship has sailed that means England looking beyond those that have been tried under Jones to date.

It was for arguments sake however the players could indeed turn down the call up and play for their clubs if they wanted to.

Is there a realistic chance we will be without the Sarracens players though?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is there a realistic chance we will be without the Sarracens players though?

I cannot see them refusing to play for england. That would cause more issues than it would solve for Saracens.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is there a realistic chance we will be without the Sarracens players though?

I cannot see them refusing to play for england. That would cause more issues than it would solve for Saracens.

Yeah that was my thoughts aswell...

I'm not expecting it to happen. Just find it interesting how much it may change things.

Hypothetically:

1 Genge (Obano)
2 LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Lawes
5 Launchbury
6 Curry
7 Underhill
8 Mercer / Dombrandt / SImmonds (Or would he start with Wilson)

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Tuilagi
14 Nowell / Cockasaniga
15 Watson

There's also a chance that Tuilagi switches codes, I don't see it happening myself but the rumblings seem to be lingering.