At what point does a “tough hole” becomes too tough?

First topic message reminder :

How many times does a hole have to consistently play to 1 or 2 shots above par that it become a “design flaw” rather than an “ability” or “course management” problem?

Last year, I was a member at Jumeirah Golf Estates, home of the Earth course. This year, I am at Yas Links. Both courses are characterized by monster par 5 finishing holes, both equally tough, but for different reasons. The 18th at Earth, as you would have seen on TV, plays long, uphill with a creek all the way up the centre of a split fairway. The fairways are narrow and tend to suck balls toward the creek. The drive is all over water, the approach is to a blind green, and at around 600 yards (650+ for the pros) it’s a genuine 3 shotter.

At Yas Links, the 18th is a brutally hard dogleg left. You have to smash your drive over 300 yards to have any chance whatsoever of going for the green, but even the you’ll have to carry 230+ over the dogleg to hit the green. Miss anywhere, and your ball is lost. Failing that, you have to hit a sacrificial short iron to the corner and leave yourself anywhere from 180-220 yards in with your 3rd to a green surrounded by water and bunkers. For most players, that means reaching the green in 4, but even laying up is a tricky business. And at Yas, the wind can howl like no-mans-business.

Once you reach these greens, they both undulate and run at 10-11 on the stimp meter. They are surrounded by hazards, as indeed are both holes from tee to green.

I’m questioning whether these holes are too hard, and I’m doing it based on real scoring…my own, and that of my friends. I am currently a 7.9 handicap, and last year (at Earth) I averaged around 10. So i’m no mug with a golf club.

I have played Earth over 50 times. I have parred the 18th twice, bogeyed it 3 times, doubled it probably 6 times, tripled probably a dozen times and picked up the rest of the time. I have seen this hole birdied twice by my friends, but they have all played it a similar number of times to me and are all lower handicappers than i.

I have now played Yas over 20 times. I have never parred the 18th, bogeyed it once, doubled it once and the rest have been 8 or more. I have seen my mate birdie it, but that was because he pulled his drive and luckily left it as close as you can be to the edge of the fairway, giving him the shortest possible shot over the dogleg water. He then hit a “once in a lifetime” fairway metal onto the green and 2 putted. This weekend, my friends and I played Yas twice, and in 8 attempts we recorded 1 par, one bogey and six triple bogey and worse. Again, we are all under 10 handicap.

I’m not questioning whether these holes can be parred, birdied or eagled. They can, I know that. But for me these holes, based on the evidence of 4 sub-10 handicappers playing them a good number of times, is that they are simply too hard to par and, in that respect, are mis-designed. We have all played them in a number of ways, but both holes just punish even the slightest mistake, to make them all but unplayable at times.

I am getting really, really ****ing annoyed playing a decent round for 17 holes and then triple bogeying the last, knowing that, at best, you’re going to drop at least a shot and more than likely 2 or 3.

I’m all for having tough holes, and we regularly see holes at majors that play a shot over par. But as a 7.9 handicapper, I expect at worst to par a particular hole at least 20% of the time, and realistically I should be able to par most holes probably 30% over the course of a season. But at Yas, I am 0 pars from 20+ attempts, and on Earth I was 2 from 50+.
We did the “hard holes” debate the other week, so let’s no go over that again. But what are your experiences of where you feel a hole is mis-designed for one reason or another? Perhaps you think some holes are too easy? When does a hole become "too hard"?

Waht what do you think represents "misdesign or "bad design"?

As a matter of fact Ban I was seriously thinking about it. I nearly won it a couple of years back but bogeyed the last three holes. Superb course and the greens are usually first class. Suits my eye well with the exception of the left to right sixth.
I'm also going to be playing Mortonhall Open this year too, down your way.

One of my mates from uni [Dundee] was a member there, and we played every week in 5th year. Greens are always top notch as you say, and the place has a great feel. Personally not a fan of the 5th hole. Approach shot to the 6th can be tricky to judge aswell. No particular stand out hole for me, just a thouroughly nice track.
Just played Mortonhall once last year. Again, great condition and some terrific holes with a couple of exceptions [5th and 9th]. Will probably give it a miss as I think it clashes with a club comp at Duddingston.

I can't believe there is a course with a 4200 yard par 3! Where is this course, the moon?