Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

Your best bet by far is try and make friends with someone from a Scottish rugby club - they tend to get priority and first dibs, although even then they're cutting down on the allocation given how popular the games are now. After that it goes to season pass holders. After that it goes to everyone else for whatever is left...

RDW wrote:Your best bet by far is try and make friends with someone from a Scottish rugby club - they tend to get priority and first dibs, although even then they're cutting down on the allocation given how popular the games are now. After that it goes to season pass holders. After that it goes to everyone else for whatever is left...

Should be a cracking game this year, historical has been an absolute cracker. I have a feeling Scotland could well turn a corner this six nations

maestegmafia wrote:

RDW wrote:Your best bet by far is try and make friends with someone from a Scottish rugby club - they tend to get priority and first dibs, although even then they're cutting down on the allocation given how popular the games are now. After that it goes to season pass holders. After that it goes to everyone else for whatever is left...

Should be a cracking game this year, historical has been an absolute cracker. I have a feeling Scotland could well turn a corner this six nations

Wash your mouth out with soap! We are hopeless and will lose to everyone (that's when we tend to do well)

Just read there are 9 players in the welsh squad that play in England.

Is Gatland.s law been dropped now, about not having 60 odd caps before being called up to play for Wales?

majesticimperialman wrote:Just read there are 9 players in the welsh squad that play in England.

Is Gatland.s law been dropped now, about not having 60 odd caps before being called up to play for Wales?

I don't think it applies if they have not played in Wales before. That seems to be what happened with Francis. New management new rules anyway.

I thought the Welsh regions would have been applying the pressure for the WRU to continue Gatland's law? Otherwise they risk losing more players to foreign money and struggling to bring home those that emerge away from Wales. You can't quite make a starting 15 from those away from Wales but it's getting closer.

You can get a decent backline;

Webb, Holmes, Biggar, Roberts, Thompkins, Rees-Zammit, Williams.

There has been no change in the WRU laws designed to keep players in wales. 60 Cap limit. But as I believe the exception is if they are already playing in England the rule doesn’t apply. This covers all the English based players, bar Biggar who has over 60 caps and is therefor also ok.

There's also a clever loophole that Francis exploited - players under 60 caps either need to come to Wales upon renewal of their contract or stay in England but then be ineligible for Wales. But with Francis they extended his contact rather than renewing or offering a new one. Clever!

The Oracle wrote:There's also a clever loophole that Francis exploited - players under 60 caps either need to come to Wales upon renewal of their contract or stay in Entland but then be ineligible for Wales. But with Francis they extended his contact rather than renewing or offering a new one. Clever!

Also I don’t think any of the regions made him an offer. Budget restraints. But that’s all changing now.

Yes, that's another loophole. The other regions must have made a 'market value' offer, I.e. matching what a non-Welsh team is offering, and if no offers are forthcoming then there was no chance of going to Wales so exempt from the rule.

More loopholes than a loopy holey thing.

maestegmafia wrote:I have a feeling Scotland could well turn a corner this six nations

Yeah straight down slack alley


People seem to forget the finished third two years ago with a winning record. Matching that again would be a big ask.

Scotland will do it just out of the blue one day, kind of like Wales did back in 04/05.

mikey_dragon wrote:Scotland will do it just out of the blue one day, kind of like Wales did back in 04/05.

That was a really good welsh team and Scotland have the resources to do similar this year. There are some really talented players in their squad.

After reading the WOL article about Tompkins I had a look through the Ospreys match against Sarries and he is some player. Didn’t overly stand out watching the game live, I guess I was watching the Ospreys more, or falling asleep as Aled sets up for another kick, but when you focus on NT he gets through some serious work and seems to read the game very well.

He looks like a young John Devereux

Two good performances by Dragons and Scarlets today. And a fantastic result by the Blues too. Not so sure if the Ospreys can emulate that tomorrow but I’m sure they will be inspired to do so.

Yeah sorry Ospreys didn’t manage to join the party.

Looks like Zamster is out for at least the start. Scored a try then some kind of calf strain.

Hopefully not too serious

Is louis rees zamit out of the 6ns? or does he have a chance of playing at some point?

majesticimperialman wrote:Is louis rees zamit out of the 6ns? or does he have a chance of playing at some point?

We won’t know until next week what the results of his injury are.

Steff Evans probably next in line.

The word from the Ospreys camp is that Wales centre Owen Watkin is back in light training after his knee cartilage injury, which is good news with the Six Nations just around the corner.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Steff Evans probably next in line.

I’d go for Conbeer over Evans on current form.

Owen Lane out for a few weeks with hamstring injury. I doubt they’ll call for a replacement.

mikey_dragon wrote:Owen Lane out for a few weeks with hamstring injury. I doubt they’ll call for a replacement.

great news that Webb has been released from his Toulon contract though.

We kinda knew that was coming.

mikey_dragon wrote:We kinda knew that was coming.

Thankfully. Hopefully he can start playing for Ospreys as soon as the six nations is done

It could be the end of our players disappearing to France, it often doesn't work out.

Let’s hope it makes welsh players more available to Wales

Moore signs for the Blues

Ranking points are very relevant to 2020 with the draw for the 2023 RWC in November after the autumn internationals.

Adds to the pressure on the new coaching team but I feel our transition from Gatland to Pivac has been pretty smooth.

A win even with a bonus point won’t gain us much but a loss would be very detrimental to our ranking position

https://www.606v2.com/t69409-rugby-world-rankings

Wales unable to gain points this weekend.

maestegmafia wrote:Ranking points are very relevant to 2020 with the draw for the 2023 RWC in November after the autumn internationals.

Adds to the pressure on the new coaching team but I feel our transition from Gatland to Pivac has been pretty smooth.

A win even with a bonus point won’t gain us much but a loss would be very detrimental to our ranking position

This is a good point. France be arguably underanked currently could cause a few significant shifts amongst those vying for a Pot 1 /2 seed. 
With most of the NH teams likely to send second string squads out this summer it gets even more relevant. Japan could be absolutely quids in if they beat an England development side after they've won a grand slam for example.

I notice Wales havent yet set any fixtures for the AIs, England too have a spot for a tier 2 game open ...hopefully they will both find time for one of the pacific Island nations to give them a chance of getting a decent seeding if they can earn it. 

I do think its increasingly daft that seeding is done so far in advance, especially with the tournament being hosted in a currently where logistics are relatively easy. Why is it that the top 12 teams need to know exactly when are where they are playing 3 years in advance but the final qualifier wont even be known till a few months before kick off? 

Beating Scotland and Italy comfortably have to be minimums for the big 4 in this tournament. Italy will be desperate to hold on to a pot 3 position, any win for them gives them a decent boost as it stands at the moment and most games they cant lose ranking points on. 

That said getting a high seeding only really matters to teams who likely wont be good enough to progress far anyway. if youre good enough to win the thing youre good enough to get out of a pool even if underseeded. 

I doubt the coaching teams focus will be too much on that right now either, the pressure is really all about getting some positive momentum and twitter on their side. World cup rankings are relevant but its more of a background noise at this point. Ultimately its something thats only controlled by how they perform in games, although I guess as with a desire to "start strong" it can lead to short term decisions over longer term developmental thinking. France of course dont have to worry about all this as hosts and arguably that along with a low expectations set by a decade of failure has enabled them to take some very brave decisions with their squad and start a long term project with little baggage from the past. A very different approach to the "smooth transition" of Wales, and one that could cost them in the short term with a genuine focus on where they are going to be in 4 years rather than on a team to win the next game. 

Italy are just trying to stay relevant. Theres no excuses not to beat them comfortably.

I’d love to see Japan rock up in Cardiff.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’d love to see Japan rock up in Cardiff.

Definitely

The ranking points really punish Wales for reaching the semi final but losing to New Zealand. I think there's an argument to remove the double points system in that game tbh because you if reach the semi finals but lose twice in a row that takes away what you earn by getting there in the first place.

guestalt_physicality wrote:The ranking points really punish Wales for reaching the semi final but losing to New Zealand. I think there's an argument to remove the double points system in that game tbh because you if reach the semi finals but lose twice in a row that takes away what you earn by getting there in the first place.

Finished fourth ...ranked fourth. Its hardly a punishment?

Anyway the way the rankings work if youre "underated" it just means the next time you play a game you stand to gain more ( or lose less) and vice versa.

If Wales dont get a top pot ranking it wont be because of they lost two games in a row in the world cup, it'll be because they haven't done well enough when playing 4 of the other top teams in the 6 nations, their summer tour to New Zealand, and whichever tier one teams they get for the AIs (Id guess Aus and SA).

The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

guestalt_physicality wrote:The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

Should be scrapped altogether, but mainly because after 6 weeks these guys have mentally and physically been through a lot, and most would want to get home to family, and/ or recuperate.

If it werent such a heavy contact sport then perhaps play it but after 6 weeks of mentally and physically chasing one goal, to be asked to chase another minor one at the end of it all...not worth it.

And imagine someone getting a season or career ending injury in this match, contributed to it by fatigue?

If AWJ plays every game, barring injury I guess he will, he will be getting close to becoming the most capped player of all time.

How far will he go? He claims to be good for another RWC hence re-signing his current deal rather than heading to France, England or Japan for a lucrative career finishing pension pot.

And where to from there. The man has a law degree but as such an eminent figure in the international game I would hope his career lies in something other than punditry like so many other great players.

Maybe Warburtons current role will inspire him? Maybe he’ll become player manager of the Ospreys for the next few years...?

Taylorman wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

Should be scrapped altogether, but mainly because after 6 weeks these guys have mentally and physically been through a lot, and most would want to get home to family, and/ or recuperate.

If it werent such a heavy contact sport then perhaps play it but after 6 weeks of mentally and physically chasing one goal, to be asked to chase another minor one at the end of it all...not worth it.

And imagine someone getting a season or career ending injury in this match, contributed to it by fatigue?

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

From a broadcasters perspective too I think the bronze playoff is a big deal. The players much less so.

Gooseberry wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

Should be scrapped altogether, but mainly because after 6 weeks these guys have mentally and physically been through a lot, and most would want to get home to family, and/ or recuperate.

If it werent such a heavy contact sport then perhaps play it but after 6 weeks of mentally and physically chasing one goal, to be asked to chase another minor one at the end of it all...not worth it.

And imagine someone getting a season or career ending injury in this match, contributed to it by fatigue?

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

From a broadcasters perspective too I think the bronze playoff is a big deal. The players much less so.

But pool games, even the ones that seem to be a foregone conclusion, have a bearing on the knock out stages. Total points scored, points difference, getting a bonus point or not, etc. all matter to seedings and positions going into the next phase. But the 3rd place play off has nothing in it whatsoever apart from for the broadcasters. Who really wants to play what is effectively a loser's match?!

The Oracle wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

Should be scrapped altogether, but mainly because after 6 weeks these guys have mentally and physically been through a lot, and most would want to get home to family, and/ or recuperate.

If it werent such a heavy contact sport then perhaps play it but after 6 weeks of mentally and physically chasing one goal, to be asked to chase another minor one at the end of it all...not worth it.

And imagine someone getting a season or career ending injury in this match, contributed to it by fatigue?

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

From a broadcasters perspective too I think the bronze playoff is a big deal. The players much less so.

But pool games, even the ones that seem to be a foregone conclusion, have a bearing on the knock out stages.  Total points scored, points difference, getting a bonus point or not, etc. all matter to seedings and positions going into the next phase.  But the 3rd place play off has nothing in it whatsoever apart from for the broadcasters.  Who really wants to play what is effectively a loser's match?!

It has a bearing on your world ranking, you should've taken it more seriously
I mean it's not like teams rotate and reat players for pool games to manage their squad is it.


Anyway we agree it's pretty pointless as a game for the players. But if you think Wales are somehow hard done by on their current rating because they lost it just smacks of victim complex and still ignores the fact that it if they are underrated now they will just gain more points next time they win against higher rated opposition, which they should do because they are underated.
But I do think even the most ardent welsh optimist would have a hard time convincing anyone they were on of the top 4 teams at the end of last year.
That may change this year. You could say England are hard done by getting france first up when by many peoples estimation are underated after losing narrowly to wales because of one moment of madness and are now a much improved team on that. If England lose that their ranking crashes. That's just the way it goes, but it balances out in the long run.
The impact of wales playing that extra game at the world cup will have an absolute minimal impact on their ranking come december. If you're good enough to beat the top teams you'll get the pot 1 ranking. Then moan when a team that's in pot two ends up rank 1 by the time the tourament rocks around.

Gooseberry wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:The final standings might not be a punishment but let's say Fiji made it to the semi finals then lost and lost again. Anyway my point is that a dead rubber game that no one really cares about counts for a lot more in ranking points than a six nations game and that seems wrong to me.

Should be scrapped altogether, but mainly because after 6 weeks these guys have mentally and physically been through a lot, and most would want to get home to family, and/ or recuperate.

If it werent such a heavy contact sport then perhaps play it but after 6 weeks of mentally and physically chasing one goal, to be asked to chase another minor one at the end of it all...not worth it.

And imagine someone getting a season or career ending injury in this match, contributed to it by fatigue?

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

From a broadcasters perspective too I think the bronze playoff is a big deal. The players much less so.

But pool games, even the ones that seem to be a foregone conclusion, have a bearing on the knock out stages.  Total points scored, points difference, getting a bonus point or not, etc. all matter to seedings and positions going into the next phase.  But the 3rd place play off has nothing in it whatsoever apart from for the broadcasters.  Who really wants to play what is effectively a loser's match?!

It has a bearing on your world ranking, you should've taken it more seriously
I mean it's not like teams rotate and reat players for pool games to manage their squad is it.


Anyway we agree it's pretty pointless as a game for the players. But if you think Wales are somehow hard done by on their current rating because they lost it just smacks of victim complex and still ignores the fact that it if they are underrated now they will just gain more points next time they win against higher rated opposition, which they should do because they are underated.
But I do think even the most ardent welsh optimist would have a hard time convincing anyone they were on of the top 4 teams at the end of last year.
That may change this year. You could say England are hard done by getting france first up when by many peoples estimation are underated after losing narrowly to wales because of one moment of madness and are now a much improved team on that. If England lose that their ranking crashes. That's just the way it goes, but it balances out in the long run.
The impact of wales playing that extra game at the world cup will have an absolute minimal impact on their ranking come december. If you're good enough to beat the top teams you'll get the pot 1 ranking. Then moan when a team that's in pot two ends up rank 1 by the time the tourament rocks around.  

No I really do not think Wales are hard done by.  My comment was only on the relevance of the 3rd place play off as a match/spectacle.  Just the sense I had from both sets of fans in the run up to the game was one of gloom and a distinct lack of interest.  For me personally, I barely watched it!  

On your second line I've highlighted....... I'm not one to overly blow smoke up Wales' backsides but, unless I'm reading it wrong (always a possibility   ), I'd have to disagree that were were not rightly in the top 4 at the end of the year.  We'd won a grand slam and got to a world cup semi.  Who else should have been in the top 4 instead of us?  Australia?  We beat them in the pools.  Ireland?  In disarray.  Scotland?  Out in the pools.
France? Ditto.  Japan?  Didn't make it past the 1/4s.  Argentina? Poor this year.  Not sure anyone else could/should have been in the top 4 apart from the 4 that were/are.

Gooseberry wrote:

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

Haven't been keeping up to date with this here debate but that's about the most crisp and pleasing few sentences I've read on 606 for months.  

I easily join the many if not most observers who feel the third placed play off game a hauntingly lonely affair in terms of tone.  You know that hollow feeling you get sometimes when you suddenly get those weird sensations of bleak insignificant loneliness?  Most people get at least a few of those beats in a reasonably long life.  That's what 3rd place games must feel like.

But..... Goose is so right in the science of it all.... especially the poor eejits who have to also play an extra game and "actually try".  

The argument is that 3rd place games are meaningless.  But as Goose later says on this thread, they do have ranking points.... so ..... meaningless?  The argument then continues that they either shouldn't be played or they shouldn't be ranked.  But a win is a win.  Fans still crow about wins regardless of 'meaningless' factor.  The wins are still slotted into the archives as numbers added to win or loss ratios.  Third placed winner still takes some bragging rights from a win.
Besides WC warm up games are also ranked though largely regarded as 'meaningless' pay-per-view training field exercises where even coaches sometimes collaborate on the kinds of game to be played.  Even in those dubiously competitive games of low meaning, a win is still a win in the minds of fans.  Plus they also don't say no to any ranking points coming their way either.

Why don't the quarter final losers play off also, to determine 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th? Makes no sense! If it's so important to determine 3rd and 4th then why not 5th and beyond?!

The Oracle wrote:Why don't the quarter final losers play off also, to determine 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th?  Makes no sense!  If it's so important to determine 3rd and 4th then why not 5th and beyond?!  

Because there isn't a game organised for them? I dont know who you are arguing this with....everyone's agreed it's a pointless game from a players perspective

Gooseberry wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Why don't the quarter final losers play off also, to determine 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th?  Makes no sense!  If it's so important to determine 3rd and 4th then why not 5th and beyond?!  

Because there isn't a game organised for them? I dont know who you are arguing this with....everyone's agreed it's a pointless game from a players perspective

I was replying to 'Fly who seemed to be making the argument for the 3rd place play off. So for the organisers point of view, if they're so keen to determine 3rd and 4th..... I was asking, perhaps slightly tongue in cheek, why they didn't want to also determine who finishes 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, i.e. why not organise a game to determine that too?

Gooseberry wrote:

The argument that the third place game is a bit pointless is fair enough. But I do think the "poor dears being expected to play an extra game" is a bit overegged, imagine what its like for those who have to play in the final and actually try. Theres many games in the season that are a bit pointless, including part of the group stages. Yes Pot 4 teams are pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, yet all we hear is clamours for more teams and more games. And that players are overworked. The that Australia and New Zealand are playing 16 extra tests in Hong Kong and Japan.

My problem is this pointless dead rubber counts as double points and then only 12 months later world cup seeding takes place. It punishes a team that reaches the semi final but then might struggle the season after, as you'd expect touring New Zealand. It's now very unlikely Wales will be top seeds again because England are on a development tour, Ireland play Australia who are beatable etc. The IRU will never stop it being double points because they will be admitting it's a nothing game when instead they want it to be a big corporate event. That's my issue. Double points and doubling up losing so close to the seeding for next time. Wales will probably have to beat two tier 1 teams in the autumn to seed now. Seems harsh.

Warren Gatland won his first game in Super Rugby away against the Blues. Winner.