PGA Tour: Stats and Useless Trivia / SONY Open in Hawaii: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Let's start with the Useless Trivia:

You all know that the top five in most Premier League appearances in the decade 2010 thru 2019 were:
Henderson
Milner
Foster
De Gea
David Silva

2).Who played the most official PGA Tour events (excluding silly season stuff like the shoot-out & Tiger benefit)?
TOP FIVE svp

Tricky, my first guess at five yielded only two, the Top Two as it happens; one who I thought must be a banker fell short and I had to give up on the final pair!

3).Along the same lines, the pgatour.com site offered these nuggets from ShotLink:

https://www.pgatour.com/best-of-decade/2019/12/01/stats-of-the-decade-tiger-woods-dustin-johnson-rory-mcilroy.html
Purely fyi!

4).Did Justin Thomas win last week's Tournament of Champions or did Schauffele and Reed lose it? 'Course Thomas won it before he lost it and then won it again.
Regardless, Justin Thomas is back as a force on Tour and goes again this week. Curiously (or not?), his record on the US mainland in full field events is somewhat less stellar:
Won 12, of which:
4 were won in Asia at limited field events (2 x CIMB, 2 x CJ Cup)
3 in Hawaii (2 x TOC limited field, 1 x SONY - full field)
1 x Major (PGA - obviously full field)
1 x Dell Technologies (Top 100)
1 x Honda (full field)
1 x WGC-Bridgestone, (Great win, but still limited field)
1 x BMW (Great win, but only Top 70)

5).Didn't mention it last week, but Thomas was as impressive in the President's Cup as he was in Paris.
And Cantlay & Schauffele also looked really strong - three bankers I would think to form the backbone for Steve Stricker at Whistling Straits.
And this is what Stricker's team looks like:
Koepka, DJ, Woodland, Schauffele, Tiger, JT, Cantlay, Kuchar, Simpson, Kis, Finau, Reed. Early days but reckon he'd be happy to go to the first tee with that lot.

6).Thomas plays again this week at Waialae CC - not a bad field but perhaps a touch weaker than recently: Thomas, Reed, Simpson, Hideki and last year's winner Kuchar are the highest ranked.
European interest: Not much, Noren, Knox, McDowell lead the way, all in need of strong results. Talking of which: Where's Luke Donald? He's played well in the past, though not recently.

7).The web.com Tour is now the Korn Ferry Tour and starts its season this weekend in the Bahamas.
Mildly interesting entrants include Camilo Villegas and two one-time college hotshots, who both distinguished themselves at The Open at St.Andrews: Niebrugge (T6) and Schniederjans (T12).
(Tommy Gainey believed to be the only player in the field out on bail for "solicitation" in a prostitution sting. Honest guv: Polk County Sherriff Judd said, Gainey was in town for a charity golf event. "He didn't make it. He was a scratch." Two Gloves forgetting that charity begins at home.)

8).And the Champions Tour kicks off next weekend in Hawaii - Plenty of old lags will find their Senior Tour annuity is devalued if a strong contingent of the newly fifty start playing.

9).Off to California and the West Coast Swing for the leading pros next week for five events:
The Bob Hope (Desert Classic?) is reinvented as "The American Express"; not surprising DeChambeau is playing away . . . . .
San Diego's Farmer's Insurance action at Torrey Pines. You can tell this event is important as Jason Day (remember him?) is climbing off his sick bed to play.
Phoenix
Pebble Beach
Riviera . . . . . .
. . . . and then over the wall, the strongest, bestest wall, to Mexico City and the WGC-Mexico, before heading to Florida.

10).How ya doing with the trivia?
Answers please.
EDIT: If 606 alumnus "RoderickSlyme" is out there, you'll get one of these Rodders . . . . . . . . .

Shotrock wrote:Anyone want to bet this will be effectively as toothless as a United Nations Resolution ... https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/28483819/think-fast-pga-institute-pace-play-policy-beginning-april

Bl00dy hell. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut . . . . . . there'll be more people inside the ropes with stop-watches than there will with golf clubs.
I reckon every Tour is going overboard with this. They know the offenders, name, shame and penalise. Still reckon my solution ticks all the boxes - have the six (pick a number) slowest (as measured by ShotLink) players in any field tee off in the final groups in Rounds 1 and 2. Normal placings resumed for the weekend, but your slowpoking will still count against you.
You (and your sponsors) want to be in a "featured group" Bryson? Play faster or you're on the back of the bus.

Sr,
Your mate SO'H is playing OK in the Bahamas, presumably on a rehab start?

SO'H has a challenging road ahead of him. Let's hope he can go low and stay healthy.

Shotrock wrote:Anyone want to bet this will be effectively as toothless as a United Nations Resolution ... https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/28483819/think-fast-pga-institute-pace-play-policy-beginning-april

Is Rolex now also sponsoring the PGA Tour??

All the new slow play rules... Really isn't going to make any difference in how long it takes to play rounds on either the PGA or EuroTour. (Or insignificantly if it does)

But if it placates the media and social media mob a little bit with an occasional stroke penalty... Maybe it's worth the effort. But still seems totally overblown to me.... Kwini's right... Sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Only way you can really do something is to DQ players. Taking as long as De Chambeau or Kevin Na did over a putt should result in a further one week tournament ban. There's simply no need to ever take so long.

I agree. You could kick players out of the event during the event. This is done in many (most?) other major professional sports. However, there is almost zero chance of this happening. Too many purse strings attached to these decisions.

Shotrock wrote:I agree. You could kick players out of the event during the event. This is done in many (most?) other major professional sports. However, there is almost zero chance of this happening. Too many purse strings attached to these decisions.

At the very least the crowd should be giving them the bird. I'm surprised that sponsors are not making demands on slow play because their products are being associated with excruciatingly boring spectacles. What company wants to be associated with such dithering?

"Drive the latest Ford Mustang, and you too can be as boring, slow and agonising as Brandon De Chambeau" Don't see how they don't see it damaging to their brand.

That's why DeChambeau isn't playing this week's American Express tournament . . . . . . . . .

I've always thought that the playing partners should just leave them behind, or play out of turn. Can't see anything wrong with that. If I was inside the ball of De Chambeau and he took 2 minutes, I would have stepped up and tapped mine in. There's no way you wouldn't get support from the crowd for that.

super_realist wrote:I've always thought that the playing partners should just leave them behind, or play out of turn. Can't see anything wrong with that. If I was inside the ball of  De Chambeau and he took 2 minutes, I would have stepped up and tapped mine in. There's no way you wouldn't get support from the crowd for that.

Trouble is, the crowd may support it but fellow pros might not.
Remember how Sabbatini got roasted at Congressional a few years ago when he left Crane behind? 'Course, that WAS Sabbatini, but still, enough to make most pros think twice.

It gets to the point  where  painfully slow play is affecting the game of other players though both in play and those behind,  how is anyone supposed to concentrate and do their job well when some selfish arse is dragging everyone with them and behind them down to their level? Don't most sections of the course have a referee? Easy enough to penalise. PGA Tour and European Tour simply has to make rules clear at the start of the season and have the balls (which is currently doesn't and probably never will) to act on them.

Even if Crane was a fast player I wouldn't want to play with such a moronic bible basher.

Shotrock wrote:I agree. You could kick players out of the event during the event. This is done in many (most?) other major professional sports. However, there is almost zero chance of this happening. Too many purse strings attached to these decisions.

WHY do want to do that? So you don't want Jack to take the time to plan his 3 iron approach into 15 at Augusta. You want to DQ have instead? You don't want tiger take the time to figure out that heroic chip on 16 at Augusta. You want to DQ him. instead? Golf is hard with these guys playing damn tough golf courses set up the challenge them. And sometimes it takes a little time to figure out. I'm not interested in professional golf trading out golf spikes for track shoes.

super_realist wrote:It gets to the point  where  painfully slow play is affecting the game of other players though both in play and those behind,  how is anyone supposed to concentrate and do their job well when some selfish arse is dragging everyone with them and behind them down to their level? Don't most sections of the course have a referee? Easy enough to penalise. PGA Tour and European Tour simply has to make rules clear at the start of the season and have the balls (which is currently doesn't and probably never will) to act on them.

 Good for you you'll never have the opportunity to play at that level then. You can zip around in two and a half hours shooting your 80, collect your $5 and go along your merry way...

Sometimes these speed golf comments crack me up.  it's like people playing at our level think they actually have a freaking clue about the game Tour guys are playing at that level. Give me a break. When any of you speed demons get done playing a tournament where one shot csn make $1 million difference and maybe change your career or your family's lives forever... Then please get back to me and tell me how quickly you played the shot.  GOOD GRIEF!!!

robopz wrote:Sometimes these speed golf comments crack me up.  it's like people playing at our level think they actually have a freaking clue about the game Tour guys are playing at that level. Give me a break. When any of you speed demons get done playing a tournament where one shot csn make $1 million difference and maybe change your career or your family's lives forever... Then please get back to me and tell me how quickly you played the shot.  GOOD GRIEF!!!

I'm not talking about being speedy, I'm talking about playing at a reasonable pace. In tournament golf there is no need for any 3 ball to take more than 4 hours, yet tournament golf regularly is over 5 hours and sometimes even longer They are not carrying their own clubs, they don't really have to look for balls, they have referees to explain the rules, they have yardage books and they have green books. Why on earth is it necessary to play slowly?
When has anyone ever made it more likely to hole a putt because they took two minutes over it rather than 30 seconds?
The longer you take over target oriented shots the more hesitation and doubt there is and the less fluid a swing becomes. Why aren't they ready to play when the other person has taken their shot? Much of the time they haven't even started their shot preparation.

It's not unreasonable to expect pro golf to be played quicker than it currently is. It never used to be this bad, and to use your reasoning, people were genuinely playing for their living, even more so because they weren't getting 100k a year just to wear a cap. These guys were playing to pay the mortgage. The outcome of a bad couple of rounds could lead to your house being repossessed, you think that Na or De Chambeau are feeling that sort of stress? Not a chance, both could afford to retire now and never work again, so don't  feed me crap about one shot affecting their family. That's ridiculous.

If you or I were playing for one million dollars, you'd be an idiot to take longer than your usual time over a shot.

robopz wrote:

Shotrock wrote:I agree. You could kick players out of the event during the event. This is done in many (most?) other major professional sports. However, there is almost zero chance of this happening. Too many purse strings attached to these decisions.

WHY do want to do that?  So you don't want Jack to take the time to plan his 3 iron approach into 15 at Augusta. You want to DQ have instead?  You don't want tiger take the time to figure out that heroic chip on 16 at Augusta. You want to DQ him. instead? Golf is hard with these guys playing damn tough golf courses set up the challenge them. And sometimes it takes a little time to figure out. I'm not interested in professional golf trading out golf spikes for track shoes.

Heroic??? . How about the time he spent picking the line to put himself in that stupid position to begin with. Pro golfers spend inordinate amounts of time to hit bad shots. De Chambeau spent an agonising amount over that putt and still missed. JB Holmes did the same.

There's no evidence that shows that taking two minutes over a putt or chip will make it more likely to result in a better outcome than someone who spends 30 seconds.

You're right, I'll never be a pro golfer, but it's not because I don't play slowly. It's because I'm not good enough, and that's not going to change simply because I change my pace of play.
I actually used to be very slow, I'm far better now I spend less time because I realised there is nothing to be gained from excessively slow play. Playing slower isn't going to make me shoot 65,just as getting round in 2.5 hours isn't. It's a balance and 5 hours is far too bloody long.

Why would I want DQ's and suspensions? Because golf is one of the most boring sports in the world to watch these days when certain players are around. It is supposed to be Entertainment. Slow play is ruining golf, that and the dreadful American coverage and commentary.
Watching an idiot deliberate for one minute over a two foot putt is not entertaining. It's excruciating, it's not necessary and requires addressing . It's not Chess, it's golf and it was sedate enough already before Na, Holmes, De Chambeau and Rev Spieth started taking the urine to such an extent.

The notion that any of these guys are playing for a "living" is hilarious. If that was the case then minor tours like the Web, Europro and Challenge tour would be taking 10 hours to play a round because most of them generally are playing for a pay cheque.

I see Tommy gainey got his happy ending this week, and he got paid for it this time.

Slow play, doesn't necessarily bother me that much. But if someone is impacting his playing partners, then it needs rectifying.

But, until it starts impacting on TV coverage and/or sponsors there's no big reason for a major change.

beninho wrote:Slow play, doesn't  necessarily  bother me that much. But if someone  is impacting his playing partners,  then it needs rectifying.  

But, until it starts impacting on TV coverage and/or sponsors there's no big reason for a major change.

That's the point though, why would any sponsor want to be associated with such mind numbingly slow players or such dreary tournaments? Conversely, there's an opportunity for Nytol or a mattress company to sponsor some players, bit like a crap boxer getting a sponsor on the soles of his shoes.

I can't understand why the crowd aren't giving these players clog. Some of the things you could shout might actually be genuinely funny instead of "mashed potato" or "youdaman"

beninho wrote:Slow play, doesn't  necessarily  bother me that much. But if someone  is impacting his playing partners,  then it needs rectifying.  

But, until it starts impacting on TV coverage and/or sponsors there's no big reason for a major change.

BINGO. I believe the new policies by both the Euro and PGA tour are more designed to deal with the small handful of most egregious offenders on both tours. And to that end, these changes probably will speed those guys up.

But beyond that, there are enough elements that make professional golf a great sport already. Adding a "beat the shot clock" element to it, would be the worst possible thing we could do. I believe 95%+ of those guys are playing at a more than adequate pace, so any policy should be designed to try to speed that other 5% up to something more reasonable. IMO the new policies of both tours will accomplish that... And without the need of stupidly over punitive suspension or DQ penalties.

Super... Your chain is so easy to yank, even when I'm not trying to. Now I'm regretting I didn't add in a prayer over Spieth...

You need to get a grip dude... Nobody wants JB Holmes standing in a fairway for 5 minutes deciding if he's going to go for you or not... Nobody wants DeChapeau spending two minutes on every other green invoking "science" before he putts... These new policies (on both tours) are designed to take care of that stuff and generally speed them all up a reasonable amount. I think they will.

robopz wrote:Super... Your chain is so easy to yank, even when I'm not trying to. Now I'm regretting I didn't add in a prayer over Spieth...

You need to get a grip dude... Nobody wants JB Holmes standing in a fairway for 5 minutes deciding if he's going to go for you or not...  Nobody wants DeChapeau spending two minutes on every other green invoking "science" before he putts...  These new policies (on both tours) are designed to take care of that stuff and generally speed them all up a reasonable amount. I think they will.

Well we will have to wait and see. I can't see them being applied too rigorously which is why I think they need to be stronger deterents. If you thought you were going to be kicked out of the tournament, no one is going to take forever over a shot.

super_realist wrote:

robopz wrote:Super... Your chain is so easy to yank, even when I'm not trying to. Now I'm regretting I didn't add in a prayer over Spieth...

You need to get a grip dude... Nobody wants JB Holmes standing in a fairway for 5 minutes deciding if he's going to go for you or not...  Nobody wants DeChapeau spending two minutes on every other green invoking "science" before he putts...  These new policies (on both tours) are designed to take care of that stuff and generally speed them all up a reasonable amount. I think they will.

Well we will have to wait and see. I can't see them being applied too rigorously which is why I think they need to be stronger deterents. If you thought you were going to be kicked out of the tournament, no one is going to take forever over a shot.

One area where we might agree... I've always believed if you're going to have a rule, then ENFORCE IT. I believe a lot of the frustration on this side of the pond over slow play is there were rules in place, but nobody (including me) believe the Tour gave a spit about enforcing them..

And be consistent and not selective. Don't penalise a debutant Chinese kid in The Masters but let off the worst offenders every single time.

super_realist wrote:And be consistent and not selective. Don't penalise a debutant Chinese kid in The Masters but let off the worst offenders every single time.

That's so funny... It was the ET's John Paramor who assessed that penalty on the Chinese kid.

robopz wrote:

super_realist wrote:And be consistent and not selective. Don't penalise a debutant Chinese kid in The Masters but let off the worst offenders every single time.

That's so funny... It was the ET's John Paramor who assessed that penalty on the Chinese kid.

I'm not just having a go at the American referees.

Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

Kwini

Now that the new article is out are you going to reveal the answer to this weeks trivia? I can't think of any other decent guesses but it has been fun racking my brain.

McLaren wrote:Kwini

Now that the new article is out are you going to reveal the answer to this weeks trivia? I can't think of any other decent guesses but it has been fun racking my brain.

Go to the latest load of drivel. And there's a clue!!

Ok, thanks. Was saving it to read with morning coffee tomorrow. I'll check it out.

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

That's the thing which people are missing. There might only be a few slow players, but that in turn makes everyone slow, because they're all backed up behind them.

An alternative to chucking them out would be to put the likes of Stenson, Crane, Rev Spieth, Holmes, An, De Chambeau, Coetzee etc stuck out at the tail end and they can take as long as they like, who's going to watch them then? Sponsors will pick up on that when there's no crowds following these players.

super_realist wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

That's the thing which people are missing. There might only be a few slow players, but that in turn makes everyone slow, because they're all backed up behind them.

An alternative to chucking them out would be to put the likes of Stenson, Crane, Rev Spieth, Holmes, An, De Chambeau, Coetzee etc stuck out at the tail end and they can take as long as they like, who's going to watch them then? Sponsors will pick up on that when there's no crowds following these players.

Daylight would be an issue.

pedro wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

That's the thing which people are missing. There might only be a few slow players, but that in turn makes everyone slow, because they're all backed up behind them.

An alternative to chucking them out would be to put the likes of Stenson, Crane, Rev Spieth, Holmes, An, De Chambeau, Coetzee etc stuck out at the tail end and they can take as long as they like, who's going to watch them then? Sponsors will pick up on that when there's no crowds following these players.

Daylight would be an issue.

That's their problem. Stick them out 4 hours before sunset. If they don't make it round, hard cheese.

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

Why not throw them out? I prefer to turn the question around, why in the world would you want to, especially in light of these new regs? Both tours have moved in a direction to be able to issue stroke penalties MUCH easier/quicker than they could before for the guys who are really the problem. If the tours actually enforces them, then as far as they are concerned, it solves the problem. no need for overkill. I mean seriously do we really want to DQ guys because maybe he goes a total of 10 seconds over time a few times in a tournament? The strokes he'll be getting docked isn't enough? I don't get the OFF WITH THEIR HEADS mentality of some who seem to want draconian penalties on this.

super_realist wrote:

pedro wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

That's the thing which people are missing. There might only be a few slow players, but that in turn makes everyone slow, because they're all backed up behind them.

An alternative to chucking them out would be to put the likes of Stenson, Crane, Rev Spieth, Holmes, An, De Chambeau, Coetzee etc stuck out at the tail end and they can take as long as they like, who's going to watch them then? Sponsors will pick up on that when there's no crowds following these players.

Daylight would be an issue.

That's their problem. Stick them out 4 hours before sunset. If they don't make it round, hard cheese.

Totally agree with that as the way to go, start gathering stats on timings and start loading the back of the field on Thursdays with the statistically slowest players, time the last tee times such that if they don’t get round in a reasonable time they lose the light.

There’s a bit of a big responsibility here on Pros and officials. Club players watch pros on the telly and end up with the implied view that it’s ok to be “Brian the snail” It’s not, it’s really not and until the professional game is seen to tackle it aggressively, there will always be a kind of subtle acceptance that slow play at all levels of the game is ok.

robopz wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Robo - I am also not interested in a track meet breaking out at a golf tournament. And, obviously, things are going mighty fine on the Big Tour, given the record purses and the ability to attract the top players from around the globe. That said ... there's concern among the bosses concerning slow play (hence the new rules). If 5% or fewer of the players are the ones who are consistently slow, why not throw them out of an event, during that event? I'm certainly of the belief that would speed them up going forward.

Why not throw them out?  I prefer to turn the question around, why in the world would you want to, especially in light of these new regs? Both tours have moved in a direction to be able to issue stroke penalties MUCH easier/quicker than they could before for the guys who are really the problem. If the tours actually enforces them, then as far as they are concerned, it solves the problem. no need for overkill. I mean seriously do we really want to DQ guys because maybe he goes a total of 10 seconds over time a few times in a tournament?  The strokes he'll be getting docked isn't enough? I don't get the OFF WITH THEIR HEADS mentality of some who seem to want draconian penalties on this.  

Why? Perhaps because governing bodies have an atrocious record of punishing people for slow play and I don't see these new rules any more likely to be applied in a widespread way
.
Slow play is ruining golf, not just as a spectacle, but how it has proliferated the game at all levels. Golf is dying at club level, and slow play is one of the issues.

The current rules are not much more than a slap on the wrist, probably not even that bad as most will likely get away with it.
Penalties need to be harsh if you want to change behaviour in regards to slow play.

What are the options for sending out players in two-balls from split tees? Will there be a limitation to field size?
If you can send out players from 2 tees, why not three? I’m aware there might be a TV coverage issue, but why not.

pedro wrote:What are the options for sending out players in two-balls from split tees? Will there be a limitation to field size?
If you can send out players from 2 tees, why not three? I’m aware there might be a TV coverage issue, but why not.

Why would you ever want to? The first preference with twosomes is almost always to start them at the 1st tee. But if you can't, and you have more than say 60 players, even at really quick 7 minute increments, twosomes are going to end up having to wait at the turn if you split tee them.