England 6 Nations Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

[king_carlos]

Is it the Sarries problems have taken the players minds off what they should be concentrating on. Farrell, George, Itoje, Daly all had shockers. The only other player I can think of who was a s bad was Sinkler

Ewels and Youngs were just as poor IMO. I thought Sinckler was better than all those named there to be fair to him.

Farrell seems to struggle to impose himself on games from 12 unless England have front foot ball. At 10 Farrell is an outstanding player. At 12 he has limitations and needs a side around him with lots of ball carriers to get over the gain line.

George had his worst England game. Itoje was trying everything to impose himself on the game but that intent spilled over into silly penalties and errors.

It pains me to say it but Youngs frustrated me even more than in the RWC final. The period of around 15-20 phases when we picked and drove from metres out, the last 5 phases with an advantage and failed to score drove me insane to watch. A scrum-half with 95 caps should be showing game management there. For about 30 seconds May was stood unmarked on his wing with his arms aloft in incredulity.

Youngs has adapted his game to fit Jones game plan. At times it has worked brilliant. Sunday was one of the games where I watched wondering if this was the same human being that scored from the top of the line-out against Australia, tap and go tries against Ireland, France x 2 and Australia, his 40m break and releasing Slade to score against France, etc.

[king_carlos]

As a more general point it's notable that young scrum-halves such as Faf de Klerk and Dupont are outstanding in defence. Gareth Davies is also excellent at pressuring playmakers as part of the rush.

The old sweeper role that scrum-halves used to play defensively is definitely adapting as defences become more aggressive.

[yappysnap]

Is it the Sarries problems have taken the players minds off what they should be concentrating on. Farrell, George, Itoje, Daly all had shockers. The only other player I can think of who was a s bad was Sinkler

Ewels and Youngs were just as poor IMO. I thought Sinckler was better than all those named there to be fair to him.

Farrell seems to struggle to impose himself on games from 12 unless England have front foot ball. At 10 Farrell is an outstanding player. At 12 he has limitations and needs a side around him with lots of ball carriers to get over the gain line.

George had his worst England game. Itoje was trying everything to impose himself on the game but that intent spilled over into silly penalties and errors.

It pains me to say it but Youngs frustrated me even more than in the RWC final. The period of around 15-20 phases when we picked and drove from metres out, the last 5 phases with an advantage and failed to score drove me insane to watch. A scrum-half with 95 caps should be showing game management there. For about 30 seconds May was stood unmarked on his wing with his arms aloft in incredulity.

Youngs has adapted his game to fit Jones game plan. At times it has worked brilliant. Sunday was one of the games where I watched wondering if this was the same human being that scored from the top of the line-out against Australia, tap and go tries against Ireland, France x 2 and Australia, his 40m break and releasing Slade to score against France, etc.

His form is just terrible atm. Youngs burst on to the scene and has shown flashes but yesterday and for a while now he's just been lethargic. You'd think having his club mate at 10 (probably englands best player too) would galvanise him but it doesn't.

[king_carlos]

Is it the Sarries problems have taken the players minds off what they should be concentrating on. Farrell, George, Itoje, Daly all had shockers. The only other player I can think of who was a s bad was Sinkler

Ewels and Youngs were just as poor IMO. I thought Sinckler was better than all those named there to be fair to him.

Farrell seems to struggle to impose himself on games from 12 unless England have front foot ball. At 10 Farrell is an outstanding player. At 12 he has limitations and needs a side around him with lots of ball carriers to get over the gain line.

George had his worst England game. Itoje was trying everything to impose himself on the game but that intent spilled over into silly penalties and errors.

It pains me to say it but Youngs frustrated me even more than in the RWC final. The period of around 15-20 phases when we picked and drove from metres out, the last 5 phases with an advantage and failed to score drove me insane to watch. A scrum-half with 95 caps should be showing game management there. For about 30 seconds May was stood unmarked on his wing with his arms aloft in incredulity.

Youngs has adapted his game to fit Jones game plan. At times it has worked brilliant. Sunday was one of the games where I watched wondering if this was the same human being that scored from the top of the line-out against Australia, tap and go tries against Ireland, France x 2 and Australia, his 40m break and releasing Slade to score against France, etc.

His form is just terrible atm. Youngs burst on to the scene and has shown flashes but yesterday and for a while now he's just been lethargic. You'd think having his club mate at 10 (probably englands best player too) would galvanise him but it doesn't.

He's been consistently England's best scrum-half since Harry Ellis did his knee. As a Tigers fan talking to a Quins fan we are obviously biased in different ways but there's a reason Care came off the bench in more tests than he started. Youngs sacrificed his running game somewhat to develop a kicking game.

I just fear that scrum-half is moving on as a position. Watching the U20s the younger 9s are much more physical. They are defensive terriers, fantastic sniping against forwards twice their side from metres out etc.

Hurts to say it but watching Youngs against Dupont felt like watching different generations of players. Similar in a way to Owen Franks against Steven Kitshoff at Wellington last year.

[Gooseberry]

Maybe its about time we got someone with a more physical presence there then, like err Ben Curry

Would Spencer or Robson offer anything fundamentally different?
My only guess as to why Jones hasnt bothered with an option that would take us to the next world cup is that he just doesn't see a player ready to play now who will be good enough for the "greatest team ever".

Regardless of how well they play Heinz and Youngs are short term picks. But you have to pick someone.

[formerly known as Sam]

Dan Robson is only 2 and a half years younger than Youngs. He's not the future. His form for Wasps hasn't been good and he's never developed the kicking game Jones likes from his 9s.

I'm confused as to why Spencer hasn't been included, he's comfortably better than Heinz who was appalling yesterday and has the ability to play the game plan. Though he is now 27 and is only a few months younger than Robson. He should be in his prime and taking the shirt if he's going to. Youngs reliably plays to the game plan but seems to have turned off too many of his natural instincts. There really should be someone coming through and forcing him out by now.

I doesn't help that most of the young 9s in the league tend to play second fiddle at their clubs. White is behind Youngs, Mitchell and Taylor behind Reinach, Whitely behind Wigglesworth and Spencer, Nic White is ahead of the trio of homegrown 9s at Chiefs, Brand has disappeared completely at LI. The only young England 9 starting regularly and in good form is Andy Uren (24) at Bristol but he's never been considered previously.

[king_carlos]

Spencer would be my starting 9 now. I still hold that Wigglesworth is a better short term pick than Heinz as well. Heinz was good in the RWC warm-ups and solid at the tournament but Wigglesworth has the best box kicking game in the Prem. If we are picking a 9 as a short term fix to hang box kicks in the air and pass to forward pods then Wigglesworth has the better game management.

I absolutely think Youngs still has the ability to play at international level and he'd be in my 6 Nations squad. I just hope the game plan evolves to allow the players to adapt more depending on the situation. The Youngs-Ford-Farrell axis against South Africa and France looked like 3 guys wondering who is calling the shots.

The best stuff we saw was from Ford in the second half when he seemed to make a clear decision to kick the corners more. If the attack isn't functioning well enough to pressure the defence then field position becomes paramount.

Aside from May, Underhill and Ludlam when he came on the kick chase was shocking as well in Youngs defence. Earl is strong there so I hope he starts against Scotland. Watson and Thorley are both much better than Daly in chase as well so hopefully they are on the wing if we plan to box kick as much.

The standout 9s in the world (Faf, Dupont, Smith, Perenara, Nagare, etc) are players who take initiative when in possession. The England game plan seems to be for all their scrum-halves to play to cookie cutter style tactics regardless of their individual strengths and weaknesses. If we get front foot ball it works. If we don't it's abysmal and there doesn't seem to be a plan B.

[Rugby Fan]

It's not too much of a surprise Jones has made no squad changes. He generally doesn't seem to like dropping players into a squad so close to a match (Spencer during the World Cup being a stand-out exception).

It's too simplistic to put this all down to stubborness, although I'm sure it plays some role. Everything we know about Jones is that he is a mcro man-manager, trying to find out what makes individuals tick, and getting them in the right frame of mind. He'll have noted a lot wrong at the weekend, and may see it is a more immediate priority to get the mood of the squad right, rather than its balance.

It seems as if our World Cup performance is like a Rorschach test, which justifies whatever hot take you fancy.

Jones is either a master coach, who almost managed his team's Cup run to perfection, unlike celebrated rivals Hansen and Schmidt, who both also won World Rugby Coach of the Year in the World Cup cycle. He was criticized for ignoring the likes of Don Armand, Alex Goode and Danny Cipriani, but we neverthless beat New Zealand for the first time at a World Cup, and made the final.

Every pundit seemed to agreed Jones should keep the England post. If there were any concerns, they mainly revolved around the need to tie him down for until the next cup.

After one match, suddenly the last Cup is being reviewed for all the signs that Jones lost the plot. Rather than a successful run, it was a major blown opportunity, as the lack of an extra prop meant our players were worn down, while the Sprinbok opposition had been rotated. The lack of a third scrum half meant no trusted option off the bench, when Youngs was misfiring. All signs of squad gambles which did not come off. On top of that, he's flogging players in training, which means we are leaden-footed, when we need to respond to adversity.

The speed of this course reversal on Jones is giving me whiplash.

I'll freely admit I didn't want him to be appointed but he's done better than I expected. His squad doesn't include a lot of my preferences but I might have mistakenly stuck with some old lags longer than he did. The main reason I wouldn't sack Jones, is that I can't think of anyone else - who wants the job - who would be an obvious improvement. Different, certainly, but not a guaranteed improvement.

If you stick with Jones, then you get the whole package. He doesn't pick squads to annoy his critics: he's trying to challenge players. He knows the game will probably move on, not least because New Zealand failed at the Cup, and that usually inspires a major rethink about tactics. I don't agree with sticking Curry at eight but if Jones wants to try and change things up, then that's what he needs to do. We'll know whether he's onto something, or going up a blind alley, at the end of the tournament.

[yappysnap]

Is it the Sarries problems have taken the players minds off what they should be concentrating on. Farrell, George, Itoje, Daly all had shockers. The only other player I can think of who was a s bad was Sinkler

Ewels and Youngs were just as poor IMO. I thought Sinckler was better than all those named there to be fair to him.

Farrell seems to struggle to impose himself on games from 12 unless England have front foot ball. At 10 Farrell is an outstanding player. At 12 he has limitations and needs a side around him with lots of ball carriers to get over the gain line.

George had his worst England game. Itoje was trying everything to impose himself on the game but that intent spilled over into silly penalties and errors.

It pains me to say it but Youngs frustrated me even more than in the RWC final. The period of around 15-20 phases when we picked and drove from metres out, the last 5 phases with an advantage and failed to score drove me insane to watch. A scrum-half with 95 caps should be showing game management there. For about 30 seconds May was stood unmarked on his wing with his arms aloft in incredulity.

Youngs has adapted his game to fit Jones game plan. At times it has worked brilliant. Sunday was one of the games where I watched wondering if this was the same human being that scored from the top of the line-out against Australia, tap and go tries against Ireland, France x 2 and Australia, his 40m break and releasing Slade to score against France, etc.

His form is just terrible atm. Youngs burst on to the scene and has shown flashes but yesterday and for a while now he's just been lethargic. You'd think having his club mate at 10 (probably englands best player too) would galvanise him but it doesn't.

He's been consistently England's best scrum-half since Harry Ellis did his knee. As a Tigers fan talking to a Quins fan we are obviously biased in different ways but there's a reason Care came off the bench in more tests than he started. Youngs sacrificed his running game somewhat to develop a kicking game.

I just fear that scrum-half is moving on as a position. Watching the U20s the younger 9s are much more physical. They are defensive terriers, fantastic sniping against forwards twice their side from metres out etc.

Hurts to say it but watching Youngs against Dupont felt like watching different generations of players. Similar in a way to Owen Franks against Steven Kitshoff at Wellington last year.

Agree with that, and there was a patch after Care was dropped where Youngs seemed revitalised as the controlling tactical 9. Now though he just doesn't seem to even be that, he's just past his best sadly and it's pretty damning that he's still thought to be the best option for England. Care used to really annoy me as he'd have so many great cameos off the bench, but every single time he started he blew it.

[king_carlos]

Agree with that, and there was a patch after Care was dropped where Youngs seemed revitalised as the controlling tactical 9. Now though he just doesn't seem to even be that, he's just past his best sadly and it's pretty damning that he's still thought to be the best option for England. Care used to really annoy me as he'd have so many great cameos off the bench, but every single time he started he blew it.

Sadly that's a byproduct of only having two usually aging 9s in the squad and an overly simplified attacking plan based on forward dominance with no plan B. Makes it all the more frustrating that the 6 Nations squad has 2 aging 9s in it and the France game displayed an overly simplified game plan with no plan B.

When Jones came in he made a fuss about England not having the skills to play 'pattern football' as he coached at Japan. So he went for a very physical forward pack and aimed for front foot ball basically through blunt force. Once sides worked that out they have found similar ways to unpick it though. SA in the final, France on Sunday, Wales in '19, Ireland in '18. All built on a very aggressive rush defence that England had no answer to.

I think Jones has done an excellent job as England coach but I hope the game plan finally starts evolving over the next couple of years. Falling back on a disciplined game plan of building phases with lots of one out carries and forcing errors through kick chase is fine. If that is plan A though then when it's falls to bits you can't really retreat back to something simpler mid game.

Picking multiple playmakers is meant to give us better attacking structure but on Sunday it looked like none of Youngs, Ford or Farrell knew who was meant to take charge.

[Rugby Fan]

Nick Evans says he saw signs the england players hadn't yet bedded in with the new attack coach, and ended up reverting to old ways, which meant they fell between two stools.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/03/england-in-transition-good-enough-recover-france-loss

[Rinsure]

Nick Evans says he saw signs the england players hadn't yet bedded in with the new attack coach, and ended up reverting to old ways, which meant they fell between two stools.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/03/england-in-transition-good-enough-recover-france-loss

I thought that was an interesting, and informed read. The departure of Weismantel, and the introduction of Amor, with new systems to develop, absorb and implement may well have been a contributing factor to the lack of apparent plan in attack.

I read the whole piece largely nodding in agreement, but at the same time thinking that slow ball was also a factor of our back row composition - a point Evans' then addressed in the last paragraph.

In another article in the Grauniad, EJ has doubled down on the Curry is an 8 belief:

“I see him as a long-term No 8, so I am prepared to accept some mistakes for him to learn and become a better No 8,” Jones added. “We don’t have a one-game selection policy. Just look at players like [Ellis] Genge and how long it has taken him to be a Test player – four years. They have to go through this apprenticeship and sometimes they go through some pain at the start of it. I think Tom can be a Rodney So’oialo-type player. A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills.

“We can’t find another Billy so we won’t go down that track. We will find a different sort of player.”

"A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills"... who does that describe in the Prem (yeah, yeah, bandwagon and all, but...)

[Rinsure]

I just fear that scrum-half is moving on as a position. Watching the U20s the younger 9s are much more physical. They are defensive terriers, fantastic sniping against forwards twice their side from metres out etc.

I doesn't help that most of the young 9s in the league tend to play second fiddle at their clubs. White is behind Youngs, Mitchell and Taylor behind Reinach, Whitely behind Wigglesworth and Spencer, Nic White is ahead of the trio of homegrown 9s at Chiefs, Brand has disappeared completely at LI. The only young England 9 starting regularly and in good form is Andy Uren (24) at Bristol but he's never been considered previously.

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and imports.

Hurts to say it but watching Youngs against Dupont felt like watching different generations of players. Similar in a way to Owen Franks against Steven Kitshoff at Wellington last year.

Definitely. Agree with this 100%.

[No 7&1/2]

I know jones is basically saying hes doing this for longer term but I dont agree with his comparison to Genge. Yes hes been around the squad for a long time and has only really broken through into match squads now but that's because hes had for me 2 of the best loose heads around in front of him. Not the same for curry and personally I doubt very much if vunipola was fit that we'd be seeing him being developed as an 8.

[BamBam]

In another article in the Grauniad, EJ has doubled down on the Curry is an 8 belief:

“I see him as a long-term No 8, so I am prepared to accept some mistakes for him to learn and become a better No 8,” Jones added. “We don’t have a one-game selection policy. Just look at players like [Ellis] Genge and how long it has taken him to be a Test player – four years. They have to go through this apprenticeship and sometimes they go through some pain at the start of it. I think Tom can be a Rodney So’oialo-type player. A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills.

“We can’t find another Billy so we won’t go down that track. We will find a different sort of player.”

"A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills"... who does that describe in the Prem (yeah, yeah, bandwagon and all, but...)

Ergh

Rodney So'oialo was a 7 who converted to 8, but that was because Jerry Collins and Richie McCaw were playing at flanker! Curry has shown he is outstanding at both flanker spots, the combination with Underhill looked to have potential to be the best around and now we're moving Curry to 8 in the hope that he can be a better player there than guys who have been playing that position since day dot

[maestegmafia]

Keiran Bracken is calling for EJ s replacement.

[Rugby Fan]

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and imports.

I think someone did a list of lost scrum halves before, and I remember wondering how many were really missed opportunities. By all accounts, the death of Nick Duncombe was a big loss, but he would have been most active in the years before Ben Youngs appeared. Main competition for Youngs has been Danny Care. Richard Wigglesworth has been an odd case, because he only really came to the fore as a strong option, when Saracens won the 2015/6 Premiership, and then started wining European winning titles. By that time, he was in his early 30s. Not sure whether he was a late bloomer, or someone we didn't appreciate. Harry Ellis might have challenged all three but got injured.

After that, I always thought it was the Joe Simpson and Dan Robson show, with Michael Young on the fringes, after not really kicking on (he's spent more time in an Eddie Jones training camp than Simpson, though). Since none of them got any time, I thought we were jumping to Spencer or Maunder, and yet no-one's really been given a shot there either.

[Rugby Fan]

Keiran Bracken is calling for EJ s replacement.

Funny, because after the World Cup final, Bracken said Jones should stay, because continuity is important. On the issue of whether Jones is the right man to take us forward, he said he couldn't think of anyone else, and getting to a World Cup final was better achievement than we expected.

Having said that, Bracken has always questioned some of Jones' selections - especially at scrum half - so has never given him a complete pass. Still, if you are going to change your mind after one match, then you are going to seem a bit fickle.

[Khouli Khan]

Nick Evans says he saw signs the england players hadn't yet bedded in with the new attack coach, and ended up reverting to old ways, which meant they fell between two stools.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/03/england-in-transition-good-enough-recover-france-loss

The way England played, 'stools' is an appropriate analogy.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Mitchell should be first choice next season at Saints with Reinach off to La Belle France. We will see just how good he can be.

[Rinsure]

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and imports.

I think someone did a list of lost scrum halves before, and I remember wondering how many were really missed opportunities. By all accounts, the death of Nick Duncombe was a big loss, but he would have been most active in the years before Ben Youngs appeared. Main competition for Youngs has been Danny Care. Richard Wigglesworth has been an odd case, because he only really came to the fore as a strong option, when Saracens won the 2015/6 Premiership, and then started wining European winning titles. By that time, he was in his early 30s. Not sure whether he was a late bloomer, or someone we didn't appreciate. Harry Ellis might have challenged all three but got injured.

After that, I always thought it was the Joe Simpson and Dan Robson show, with Michael Young on the fringes, after not really kicking on (he's spent more time in an Eddie Jones training camp than Simpson, though). Since none of them got any time, I thought we were jumping to Spencer or Maunder, and yet no-one's really been given a shot there either.

I've just had a dig through and tried to find the England U20 (or equivalent) scrum-halves for the last few years:

2012 Dan Robson (27, Wasps), Ben Spencer (27, Saracens)
2013 Alex Day (26, Saracens)
2014 Callum Braley (25, Gloucester) > Italy
2015 Stuart Townsend (24, Exeter)
2016 Max Green (23, Bath)
2017 Harry Randall (22, Bristol)
2018 Ben White (21, Leicester)
2019 Sam Maunder (20, Exeter)

Robson and Spencer are first choice at their clubs, and obviously have been in the England conversation routinely. Callum Braley buggered off to represent Italy (and is in the mix at Gloucester, along with Heinz and Joe Simpson). Alex Day is at Saracens, but I don't think he gets much game time?
Max Green is in the group of players behind Will Chudley at Bath, Stuart Townsend is in the mix at Exeter along with Sam (and Jack) Maunder, but they are all behind Nic White in the pecking order. Harry Randall is arguably first choice at Bristol, competing with Andy Uren. There's some bloke called Youngs at Tigers keeping Ben White out of the side.

So, how many of those are first choice at their club, and banging on the door for England?

[BamBam]

No idea on contract situations, but at least one of the three behind White at Exeter could really do with a move. Townsend was very highly regarded in the age groups as far as I can recall

Although I've just seen that White is leaving this summer, so you'd hope that no one else is brought in

[Khouli Khan]

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and imports.

I think someone did a list of lost scrum halves before, and I remember wondering how many were really missed opportunities. By all accounts, the death of Nick Duncombe was a big loss, but he would have been most active in the years before Ben Youngs appeared. Main competition for Youngs has been Danny Care. Richard Wigglesworth has been an odd case, because he only really came to the fore as a strong option, when Saracens won the 2015/6 Premiership, and then started wining European winning titles. By that time, he was in his early 30s. Not sure whether he was a late bloomer, or someone we didn't appreciate. Harry Ellis might have challenged all three but got injured.

After that, I always thought it was the Joe Simpson and Dan Robson show, with Michael Young on the fringes, after not really kicking on (he's spent more time in an Eddie Jones training camp than Simpson, though). Since none of them got any time, I thought we were jumping to Spencer or Maunder, and yet no-one's really been given a shot there either.

So, how many of those are first choice at their club, and banging on the door for England?

I don't understand why a player has to be first choice in a position to be considered for an International call-up. There are often extenuating circumstances as to why a EQP might not be first choice at a club - but they might be the best EQP playing in that position other than the incumbent. Or at least, they ought to be considered. Maybe they're not banging on the door because they haven't been given a chance or maybe they're rubbish. I'd give Maunder a go myself.

[BamBam]

I don't think its so much that they have to be first choice, but its difficult for young players to impress an international coach if they aren't getting the game time in big Prem / Euro games - the step up to international level in terms of intensity and pressure is substantial

If I was EJ, I would want to see how players cope with pressure when they're surrounded with familiar players and the coaching they are used to week in week out before being willing to throw them into internationals with much shorter training camps

[Rinsure]

I don't understand why a player has to be first choice in a position to be considered for an International call-up. There are often extenuating circumstances as to why a EQP might not be first choice at a club - but they might be the best EQP playing in that position other than the incumbent. Or at least, they ought to be considered. Maybe they're not banging on the door because they haven't been given a chance or maybe they're rubbish. I'd give Maunder a go myself.

I think that if they're not first choice, they're unlikely to get enough exposure to a high enough level of match and pressure, and not featuring regularly will mean they're not considered. The point is, I think, that we don't have any scrum halves making enough of a case week-in, week-out (other than Danny Care, but we all know that ship has sailed) for inclusion. Contrast it with the number 8 conversation, where you can make a pretty good case for any one of five or six guys.

[Barney McGrew did it]

I don’t buy any of these excuses – adapting to a new coach (he’s only been there a week or so, how much adapting could you expect), over-trained, confused tactics, feeling sorry for themselves (!). This is essentially the same side that got to a RWC a few weeks ago – it’s not as if they are all new to each other and to the current tactics.

I think the side struggles to adapt to the absence of certain players like Billy & Manu (with the change in game-plan this means). And there are certain weaknesses in the team that Eddie has long struggled with such as SH & FB. A few injuries here & there don’t help, nor does playing players out of position. Beating the ABs always seems to raise expectations even when their current team is a bit average (Ireland suffered the same a year or so ago).

England have shown for some time they can be got at. I think we have to expect a period of some development where we’ll continue to be vulnerable. FB, SH no 8, even centres are areas that need to be developed. England are a very decent side, up there with at least 5 other teams – they’ll win some, they’ll lose some. I’d rather lose by one score to a resurgent France in Paris, than ship 31 points in 40mins to Scotland at HQ – so some progress so far I guess.

[Maddogflanker]

23 I'd like to see this weekend

Furbank
Daly
Joseph
Devoto
May
Farrell
Heinz
Curry
Underhill
Hill
Kruis
Itoje
Sinckler
George
Genge

LCD, Mako, Stuart, lawes, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Thorley.

I want to see the brutality I was promised against France. Farrell to get us in the right areas and what a real 12 can do in attack.
Furbank deserves another crack, No way is Eddie going to change his mind about number 8, and Curry is a truly class player.

I know theres not a chance Youngs will be dropped, but my god he was terrible.

[lostinwales]

From what I have read I strongly suspect we'll be having more of the same. Watson may well be back so we'll go to a May/Daly/Watson back 3. JJ at 13 and Curry still at 8.

What else? Mako could well be back, however tough that will be on one of Marler and Genge, and I'd expect Kruis to start.

We could very well end up with a starting 15 made out of players who were all out in Japan and no chances for the new guys.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

23 I'd like to see this weekend

Furbank
Daly
Joseph
Devoto
May
Farrell
Heinz
Curry
Underhill
Hill
Kruis
Itoje
Sinckler
George
Genge

LCD, Mako, Stuart, lawes, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Thorley.

I want to see the brutality I was promised against France. Farrell to get us in the right areas and what a real 12 can do in attack.
Furbank deserves another crack, No way is Eddie going to change his mind about number 8, and Curry is a truly class player.

I know theres not a chance Youngs will be dropped, but my god he was terrible.

Unless Farrell can prove he is going to play 500% better than he did on Sunday, he doesn't belong near to the starting XV or maybe the XXIII. Ford does not deserve to be dropped, it was him that changed direction and started to kick us into the corners for position. Farrell just wasn't in the game in the last 20, even when EJ pulled Ford off.

Lawes to the bench? He and Underhill were our only decent forwards, Itoje had caught the sulks, George was awful, Sinkler was just as bad, Ewels was simply outclassed, Curry is simply not an 8, Ludlam can do a better job. Kruis and Lawes locks for me, Ludlam at 8 allowing Curry to go back to 6. Hill / Earl on the bench.

Furbank
Thorley
Daly
Devoto
May
Ford
Heinz
Ludlam
Underhill
Curry
Kruis
Lawes
Sinckler
George
Genge

LCD, Mako, Stuart, Itoje, Earl/Hill, Youngs, Farrell, JJ.

I would love to see Mitchell given a shot, but he is there simply as an apprentice.

[Geordie]

In another article in the Grauniad, EJ has doubled down on the Curry is an 8 belief:

“I see him as a long-term No 8, so I am prepared to accept some mistakes for him to learn and become a better No 8,” Jones added. “We don’t have a one-game selection policy. Just look at players like [Ellis] Genge and how long it has taken him to be a Test player – four years. They have to go through this apprenticeship and sometimes they go through some pain at the start of it. I think Tom can be a Rodney So’oialo-type player. A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills.

“We can’t find another Billy so we won’t go down that track. We will find a different sort of player.”

"A mobile, hard-running No 8 that has ball skills"... who does that describe in the Prem (yeah, yeah, bandwagon and all, but...)

Ergh

Rodney So'oialo was a 7 who converted to 8, but that was because Jerry Collins and Richie McCaw were playing at flanker! Curry has shown he is outstanding at both flanker spots, the combination with Underhill looked to have potential to be the best around and now we're moving Curry to 8 in the hope that he can be a better player there than guys who have been playing that position since day dot

Thats such a depressing quote from EJ.
Curry is a top class flanker who could go on to World class...why the feck shift him to 8???

We have Mercer, Hughes, Dombrandt, Willis, hell even Ted Hill looks a better prospect at 8 than Curry and hes a 6.

If Curry starts at 8 v Scotland ill be genuinely dissapointed / peed off. As theres just no logic or point.

[Maddogflanker]

Daly to 13? Never going to happen.
I thought Lawes was very impressive, but Ewels needs to be dropped and I'd rather have Lawes on the bench as I think his carries will be more effective later in the game.

Farrell needs a good game, so I want to see him moving his big, mobile pack around the pitch and hope he hasn't buttered his fingers.

Furbank, I'll admit had a bit of a nightmare but I really hope Eddie doesn't drop him and shatter his confidence.

[Soul Requiem]

It's one of those occasions where I end up wishing Jones would just bugger off, his refusal to sort out the issues at 8 and 9 are beyond frustrating.

[Gooseberry]

England arent short of centers so theres no way Dalys going to 13 even if many have felt its the position he should always have been playing. Having a sort of experienced fullback to interchange with Furbank is pretty important too. Honestly dont see Jones making any radical changes off the back of a gem where players failed to execute and they got done by a pack thats much more physical than Scotlands.
I do agree with the point someone made a few posts back about the kicking for territory game needing a plan B for when they are the ones on the backfoot. SA showed the blueprint for beating them, and the cricitism from the world cup that they'd maybe focused solely on how to beat the all blacks/ aus still holds some water.
But regardless its hard and counter productive to try and outright change the makeup of a team and the way it plays in a week, its just not going to be an option thats considered. The comments on Curry show Jones is willing to sacrifice the short term for the longer term.
Conversely it seems we will have to wait for the summer tour for those new style 9s to play tests rugby in whats always been destined to be the development tour.
Judge where England are really at for this cycle on the AIs. Right now its not looking too smart

[lostinwales]

Tuilagi out - which is no surprise - but the suggestion is he'll be back for Ireland which is some rare good news.

[Gooseberry]

Tuilagi out - which is no surprise - but the suggestion is he'll be back for Ireland which is some rare good news.

Also good news that they've had the sense to manage him and not just stick him on the bench hoping he can see through the last 20.

[bluestonevedder]

EJ's obstinance has got me wanting to smash my head against a wall. 

How can every fan see what the obvious problem is with playing Curry at 8, but a hugely experienced international coach, not? Are we the idiots for thinking that switching for a more traditional 8 is the simple fix?

[whocares]

I just fear that scrum-half is moving on as a position. Watching the U20s the younger 9s are much more physical. They are defensive terriers, fantastic sniping against forwards twice their side from metres out etc.

I doesn't help that most of the young 9s in the league tend to play second fiddle at their clubs. White is behind Youngs, Mitchell and Taylor behind Reinach, Whitely behind Wigglesworth and Spencer, Nic White is ahead of the trio of homegrown 9s at Chiefs, Brand has disappeared completely at LI. The only young England 9 starting regularly and in good form is Andy Uren (24) at Bristol but he's never been considered previously.

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and import

Replace scrum half by fly half and that’s pretty much were France has been during 10 + good years

[MichaelT]

How can every fan see what the obvious problem is with playing Curry at 8, but a hugely experienced international coach, not? Are we the idiots for thinking that switching for a more traditional 8 is the simple fix?

Curry at 8 wasn't just the only problem though. Lawes is getting favourable reviews, but he is not a flanker. He would have done the same at lock, and we should have played Earl or Hill in the back-row too. Ewels was very poor, Sinckler and George were poor by their standards and Marler is not a ball-carrier over the last 5 or so years. Thats 4 out of 8 who when replaced we got the upper hand and started putting points on the board.

Thats what I hope Jones sees. If he sticks with Curry at 8, make sure others are picked to do well what they usually do well instead of more experiments.

[BamBam]

Ewels is an immediate drop for me. Put either Kruis / Lawes there, the other on the bench - both offered far more carrying the ball than Ewels did, and have both had plenty of games alongside Itoje where the lineout has been good

If we're persisting with this Curry at 8 idea, then stick the best carrying option at 6 - I think that is Hill, but Earl also offers plenty in that area

I'd keep the front row as it is, we usually get a lot more ball carrying from George / Sinckler, and Marler was good in the scrum. I would have no issue with any of the three looseheads starting though

[Poorfour]

To be fair to Eddie, 20-some years ago England had a top class flanker who reinvented himself as a Number 8, partly because of knee injuries that harmed his pace but mostly because there were better players available on the flanks. Took him a couple of years but it seemed to turn out OK.

All that said, unless his plan is to have both Currys on the pitch at once, I'd rather he just took one of the many very good 8s we have at the moment. There are basically three kinds of successful 8s: the big, unstoppable lumps (Billy, Waldrom, Hughes), the all round athletes (Dallaglio, Read, Faletau, Parisse) and the ones who read the game so well they can control it (Deano, Easter).

Eddie's hoping Curry can become one of the second type, but that will take time and Dombrandt is already showing that he has what it takes to be the third type.

[Geordie]

To be fair to Eddie, 20-some years ago England had a top class flanker who reinvented himself as a Number 8, partly because of knee injuries that harmed his pace but mostly because there were better players available on the flanks. Took him a couple of years but it seemed to turn out OK.

All that said, unless his plan is to have both Currys on the pitch at once, I'd rather he just took one of the many very good 8s we have at the moment. There are basically three kinds of successful 8s: the big, unstoppable lumps (Billy, Waldrom, Hughes), the all round athletes (Dallaglio, Read, Faletau, Parisse) and the ones who read the game so well they can control it (Deano, Easter).

Eddie's hoping Curry can become one of the second type, but that will take time and Dombrandt is already showing that he has what it takes to be the third type.

Yes but he was a 6'4 guy who had won the world cup with England 7's side hadnt he? So clearly had a lot to offer.

And Curry IS one of our best flankers.

I wonder where Willis stands in Jones thinking. Hes a beast.

[propdavid_london]

IMO these points from Carlos and Sam are linked. We're producing good scrum halfs, coming through the club academies and the international age grades, but they then get "lost" in the limbo of first team squad rugby, stuck behind the incumbents and imports.

I think someone did a list of lost scrum halves before, and I remember wondering how many were really missed opportunities. By all accounts, the death of Nick Duncombe was a big loss, but he would have been most active in the years before Ben Youngs appeared. Main competition for Youngs has been Danny Care. Richard Wigglesworth has been an odd case, because he only really came to the fore as a strong option, when Saracens won the 2015/6 Premiership, and then started wining European winning titles. By that time, he was in his early 30s. Not sure whether he was a late bloomer, or someone we didn't appreciate. Harry Ellis might have challenged all three but got injured.

After that, I always thought it was the Joe Simpson and Dan Robson show, with Michael Young on the fringes, after not really kicking on (he's spent more time in an Eddie Jones training camp than Simpson, though). Since none of them got any time, I thought we were jumping to Spencer or Maunder, and yet no-one's really been given a shot there either.

I've just had a dig through and tried to find the England U20 (or equivalent) scrum-halves for the last few years:

2012 Dan Robson (27, Wasps), Ben Spencer (27, Saracens)
2013 Alex Day (26, Saracens)
2014 Callum Braley (25, Gloucester) > Italy
2015 Stuart Townsend (24, Exeter)
2016 Max Green (23, Bath)
2017 Harry Randall (22, Bristol)
2018 Ben White (21, Leicester)
2019 Sam Maunder (20, Exeter)

Robson and Spencer are first choice at their clubs, and obviously have been in the England conversation routinely. Callum Braley buggered off to represent Italy (and is in the mix at Gloucester, along with Heinz and Joe Simpson). Alex Day is at Saracens, but I don't think he gets much game time?
Max Green is in the group of players behind Will Chudley at Bath, Stuart Townsend is in the mix at Exeter along with Sam (and Jack) Maunder, but they are all behind Nic White in the pecking order. Harry Randall is arguably first choice at Bristol, competing with Andy Uren. There's some bloke called Youngs at Tigers keeping Ben White out of the side.

So, how many of those are first choice at their club, and banging on the door for England?

Randall is an excellent 9 - size is the only thing against him, as he is small - even for a 9! However, I have seen him punch well above his weight.

[Geordie]

Size is nothing for a 9 if he's good.

[Mr Bounce]

I am amazed that Randall hasn't been around the squad - week after week he's playing 1st team rugby for the Bears and is often on the scoresheet. He's quick and deceptively strong for his size. I would have no issue having either him or Mitchell as a back up.

I genuinely think that the best thing for England long-term is for both our current 9s to pick up niggles so Jones' hand is forced.

[formerly known as Sam]

I am amazed that Randall hasn't been around the squad - week after week he's playing 1st team rugby for the Bears and is often on the scoresheet. He's quick and deceptively strong for his size. I would have no issue having either him or Mitchell as a back up.

I genuinely think that the best thing for England long-term is for both our current 9s to pick up niggles so Jones' hand is forced.

Eddie does seem to have a blind spot where Bristol are concerned. No Randall or Uren despite both being talented young 9s playing regularly. No revisit to the squad for the new fitter Nathan Hughes and Harry Thacker can pull up all the trees he likes he's not going to get a look in. Will it change when Sinckler joins?

[Rugby Fan]

As far as I can tell, the pundits who are most upset with Jones, are those who were his fiercest critics from 2018 to the World Cup. After our performance at the Cup, most of them said he should stay as head coach, because he was obviously doing something right.

The reason it's only taken one match for them to start hounding him, or calling for his head, is that the match encapsulated a lot of what they didn't like about Jones in one neat package. Nothing short of winning all our remaining matches will calm that constituency down, and even that might not be enough, if it doesn't earn a title.

I think there is also a lot of annoyance that England did not employ Shaun Edwards, when it seems that he wants to work with his home national team, and that's being blamed on Jones.

I'd actually put that mostly on the RFU, a bit on Edwards himself, and only tangentially on Jones. The RFU had an opportunity to get Edwards when he was mulling joining Wales. There are various accounts of what happened, but the most popular one, is that England only offered him the Saxons job, so he went with Wales.

What tends to be forgotten is that Edwards wanted to keep working with Wasps, and, while at Wales, actually did so until November 2011. His dual responsibility only ended because Wasps needed to cut costs. We might look back and say the RFU should have made an exception for Edwards but there were certainly potential conflicts in doing so.

As it turns out, after Brian Ashton was sacked, one of the first things Martin Johnson did was approach Edwards but Edwards said he'd already made a commitment to Wales. While that might seem admirable, it's a contrast to the way other top coaches have been happy to leave contracts they have only recently signed, if a more attractive offer comes up. Edward himself reversed course on the Wigan job, so it's hard not to put that choice on him.

If Edwards had wanted to join the England set-up under Lancaster, then he could have mentioned he was available - as he has apparently done recently - but he didn't. I suspect he had an eye on joining Gatland on another Lions tour. Ironically, as we know now, Gatland ended up overlooking Edwards in favour of Andy Farrell, who had been chosen to be England defence coach. As Gatland did that again in 2017, it doesn't seem England had a worse option than Edwards in those years.

When the RFU appointed Eddie Jones, they gave the Australian a free hand on coaches. If they had wanted to insist on keeping the door open for Edwards, or anyone else, then they could have done that. There can't really be any complaints that he has decided not to ask the Englishman to join him (if that's what actually happened). The RFU could even have decided to say goodbye to Jones, and build a new coaching team with Edwards in it. After all, it was Ibanez who brought Edwards over to France, not Galthié.

[MichaelT]

I'd say the majority of the blame as to why Edwards is not involved with England is at the RFUs door. He is a winner at everything he does. Why did we employ unproven coaches like Johnson and then Lancaster. It should have been made to work if he wanted to stay at Wasps instead of Johnson. Or then 2011 after the world cup, do everything to bring him in to work with Lancaster, who is clearly talented but also wasn't ready for the job he had at England at the time, with the other inexperienced coaches and teams of 200 caps.

Look at what an experienced coach has achieved with England over the last 4 years. The ups have been far more than the downs.

Any success the England team has is in spite of the RFU. Will Carling called them 57 old farts 25 odd years ago. I don't think much has changed.

[Gooseberry]

You can "blame" the clubs for getting the rule that stopped England poaching coaches who were under contract but not Wales.

[Rugby Fan]

...It should have been made to work if he wanted to stay at Wasps instead of Johnson...

That wasn't the choice. Johnson was only appointed after Ashton was sacked, by which time Edwards had turned down the Saxons offer from England and gone to Wales. When Johnson did get on board, the first thing he did was approach Edwards but Edwards turned England down. The first is in the RFU, the second is on Edwards.

The list of coaches the RFU has mishandled or mistreated is almost as long as the number of coaches it has employed. On the scale of mistreatment, Edwards doesn't rank that high. I agree with people like Dallaglio and Dawson that its an enormous shame we haven't had him on our side but he has turned us down at least twice.

Also, this is professional sport, when there are no sure things. I remember the clamour for Jack Rowell, when he was in charge of an imperious Bath side. When he took over England, he ignored Neil Back, as he thought he was too small, despite the fact Bath's dominance was built on fetchers like Andy Robinson. Rowell's record wasn't bad, but it was nowhere near what we hoped for, based on Bath. We also broke the bank to bring Brian Ashton back as attack coach but that never worked out.

Internationally, France have had a long recent record of top club coaches failing at the national level. Australian supporters were delighted with Robbie Deans, then clamoured for Ewen McKenzie, and Michael Cheika, and soon turned on all three. They also lamented that an Australia, Mick Byrne, was the All Black skills coach and put pressure on the ARU to bring him home. The ARU did just that, but now Dave Rennie doesn't want him. The All Blacks looked at John Mitchell coaching a successful England side, and brought him home. That didn't work out.

It's not enough just to identify a good coach, you have to have an environment where he can thrive.

[MichaelT]

All those other ones you've mentioned were in the top job when it didn't work out. Fair enough. Still think RFU could have done more to bring him in.

Him turning them down sounds like he made commitments elsewhere and wanted to honour them first. Thats fair enough to me.

Edwards has never been in the top job internationally so you're right in that he could fail. I do wonder why he has never had a top job though after 12 years of assistant coaching at that level. Maybe he doesn't want it and therefore this is all pointless. But whens that ever stopped someone on the internet.

[Sponsored content]