England 6 Nations Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

[Rugby Fan]

Him turning them down sounds like he made commitments elsewhere and wanted to honour them first. Thats fair enough to me.

He appeared at a press conference announcing him as the new head coach of Wigan. Then he took the France job. Edwards honours what he wants to honour, like many coaches (Dave Rennie, Eddie Jones, John Mitchell, Brian Ashton, Dean Ryan etc). And so they all should, as their employers value success, not loyalty.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm very confused after reading ben Ryan's guardian piece on england. Particularly liked his summary:

'This result wasn’t about the French having freedom and England not. It was about a resurgent France that England couldn’t respond to, bar Jonny May’s individual efforts. Selection and Plan Bs are just a side story.

The real reason England are not always at the level they can be is autonomy. They need to be truly allowed to be in the driving seat. If it stays the same, well, the rollercoaster will continue.'

All a bit confused for me.

[maestegmafia]

Well dimerised by Ben Ryan. England were ineffective against France but still drew back the result to get close enough to have won. That is the mark of a team with the ability needed to win a championship.

I imagine that they will come out all guns blazing this weekend up in Edinburgh.

But if they start slow again the Scots could sow the seeds of doubt. Does that need a plan b? Or do players just have to cut out silly mistakes? I don’t think Farrell has ever dropped two consecutive passes in his life.

I would imagine they’ll be looking to cross the try line in the first five minutes and build from there.

The team selection will tell us all I’m sure

[Rugby Fan]

All a bit confused for me.

He's just saying what a lot of other commentators have pointed out, except he's calling it a lack of autonomy, rather than a lack of leadership.

[Geordie]

Well dimerised by Ben Ryan. England were ineffective against France but still drew back the result to get close enough to have won. That is the mark of a team with the ability needed to win a championship.

I imagine that they will come out all guns blazing this weekend up in Edinburgh.

But if they start slow again the Scots could sow the seeds of doubt. Does that need a plan b? Or do players just have to cut out silly mistakes? I don’t think Farrell has ever dropped two consecutive passes in his life.

I would imagine they’ll be looking to cross the try line in the first five minutes and build from there.

The team selection will tell us all I’m sure

Thats it...

[No 7&1/2]

Hes going round in circles rugby fan. Seems he wants to criticise jones but doesnt really know how to go about it.

[nlpnlp]

Hes going round in circles rugby fan. Seems he wants to criticise jones but doesnt really know how to go about it.

I think most of us could aim some pretty easy criticisms at Jones.  Picking Ewels in the second row when there were at least 2 better options in the squad.  Playing a young relatively inexperienced player out of position at no 8.  Not only did he do a poor job at no 8 but it must affect his confidence.  Picking a specialist no 6 in Ted Hill then picking anyone and everyone to play no 6 ahead of him.  Picking a no 9 out of form and confidence.  Putting a makeshift no 8 in front of him cannot have helped Youngs in any way.  Continuing with the experiment of Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 so he doesn't have to make the decision on which of the 2 should be at no 10.  Generally poor substitutions - putting player on at set times rather than when they need to be made to effect a performance.  Picking players then dumping them - Hughes, Harrison, Robson, Spencer, etc.

Sorry but I think there are plenty of things to criticise Jones for.  I appreciate he got us to a world cup final with a great performance against New Zealand, but does that give him a free pass for ever?  Marler, Ewels, Youngs have all carried the can for his poor decisions, when does he?

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Hes going round in circles rugby fan. Seems he wants to criticise jones but doesnt really know how to go about it.

I think most of us could aim some pretty easy criticisms at Jones.  Picking Ewels in the second row when there were at least 2 better options in the squad.  Playing a young relatively inexperienced player out of position at no 8.  Not only did he do a poor job at no 8 but it must affect his confidence.  Picking a specialist no 6 in Ted Hill then picking anyone and everyone to play no 6 ahead of him.  Picking a no 9 out of form and confidence.  Putting a makeshift no 8 in front of him cannot have helped Youngs in any way.  Continuing with the experiment of Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 so he doesn't have to make the decision on which of the 2 should be at no 10.  Generally poor substitutions - putting player on at set times rather than when they need to be made to effect a performance.  Picking players then dumping them - Hughes, Harrison, Robson, Spencer, etc.

Sorry but I think there are plenty of things to criticise Jones for.  I appreciate he got us to a world cup final with a great performance against New Zealand, but does that give him a free pass for ever?  Marler, Ewels, Youngs have all carried the can for his poor decisions, when does he?

With 35 starts as a 10/12 pair, I hardly think it is still and experiment.

Gatland did the same with the Lions, Sexton 10 - Farrell 12, so that is two top coaches that see the benefit of Farrell at 12

[Soul Requiem]

Hes going round in circles rugby fan. Seems he wants to criticise jones but doesnt really know how to go about it.

I think most of us could aim some pretty easy criticisms at Jones.  Picking Ewels in the second row when there were at least 2 better options in the squad.  Playing a young relatively inexperienced player out of position at no 8.  Not only did he do a poor job at no 8 but it must affect his confidence.  Picking a specialist no 6 in Ted Hill then picking anyone and everyone to play no 6 ahead of him.  Picking a no 9 out of form and confidence.  Putting a makeshift no 8 in front of him cannot have helped Youngs in any way.  Continuing with the experiment of Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 so he doesn't have to make the decision on which of the 2 should be at no 10.  Generally poor substitutions - putting player on at set times rather than when they need to be made to effect a performance.  Picking players then dumping them - Hughes, Harrison, Robson, Spencer, etc.

Sorry but I think there are plenty of things to criticise Jones for.  I appreciate he got us to a world cup final with a great performance against New Zealand, but does that give him a free pass for ever?  Marler, Ewels, Youngs have all carried the can for his poor decisions, when does he?

So you disagree with his team selection for one match?

Picking players and then not picking them again is hardly noteworthy is it?

[TightHEAD]

Farrell is an ok 12, nothing special but clearly last weekend he took a knock to his arm and should have been subbed, too much pressure on a player being captain, goal kicker and centre IMHO

[Geordie]

I have a suspicion Eddie Jones doesnt really give a jot about the actual scrum makeup...so long as it does the job.

He is more bothered about what the players do around the field...hence he's not bothered about actual specialists.

But then thats a very Aussie way of thinking in rugby...the numbers on the back of a shirt are merely that...

[king_carlos]

I have a suspicion Eddie Jones doesnt really give a jot about the actual scrum makeup...so long as it does the job.

He is more bothered about what the players do around the field...hence he's not bothered about actual specialists.

But then thats a very Aussie way of thinking in rugby...the numbers on the back of a shirt are merely that...

As long as the pack gets balanced that Jones-ism couldn't bother me less to be honest.

6.Fardy
7.Hooper
8.Pocock

When that first got picked it looked ridiculous but it performed as one of the most dominant back rows in modern times.

I really rate Ludlam but think Earl would be better suited to starting as an extra carrier. From this squad I'd definitely have both in the 23, just starting Earl. I think Lawes should be starting as well. Itoje had a really poor game against France and Lawes has been offering more than him as a carrier in recent times.

Mako being back adds a carrier. That's a good example of balance. Were Billy, Manu and Cokanasiga available I'd love to see them start as carriers with Marler starting as the better scrummager. With injuries to a lot of our stronger carriers I think Mako starting is a good call though. I'm glad that Genge has kept the bench spot as well.

With Farrell, Daly, Joseph and Devoto all covering several positions I like the 6-2 bench split a lot. 2 centres on the bench looked like covering a half fit Manu being in the starting XV. Whereas the 6-2 split can be used as a real weapon on 50 minutes, as the Boks have shown to devastating effect in recent times.

[No 7&1/2]

I think part of the reason, the main part, is lawes was pretty ineffective in attacking rucks. Compare that to itoje and its night and day. Jones has repeatedly said we were in the French 22 several times without success. I think hes gone some to remedying that with a 6 picked to get to that ruck and provide quick ball and a 9 who will hopefully not take an age to pass.

[Soul Requiem]

I have a suspicion Eddie Jones doesnt really give a jot about the actual scrum makeup...so long as it does the job.

He is more bothered about what the players do around the field...hence he's not bothered about actual specialists.

But then thats a very Aussie way of thinking in rugby...the numbers on the back of a shirt are merely that...

As long as the pack gets balanced that Jones-ism couldn't bother me less to be honest.

6.Fardy
7.Hooper
8.Pocock

When that first got picked it looked ridiculous but it performed as one of the most dominant back rows in modern times.

I really rate Ludlam but think Earl would be better suited to starting as an extra carrier. From this squad I'd definitely have both in the 23, just starting Earl. I think Lawes should be starting as well. Itoje had a really poor game against France and Lawes has been offering more than him as a carrier in recent times.

Mako being back adds a carrier. That's a good example of balance. Were Billy, Manu and Cokanasiga available I'd love to see them start as carriers with Marler starting as the better scrummager. With injuries to a lot of our stronger carriers I think Mako starting is a good call though. I'm glad that Genge has kept the bench spot as well.

With Farrell, Daly, Joseph and Devoto all covering several positions I like the 6-2 bench split a lot. 2 centres on the bench looked like covering a half fit Manu being in the starting XV. Whereas the 6-2 split can be used as a real weapon on 50 minutes, as the Boks have shown to devastating effect in recent times.

Was it really that dominant or was it one of the main reasons why Australia have struggled so much in recent years?

[Soul Requiem]

I think part of the reason, the main part, is lawes was pretty ineffective in attacking rucks. Compare that to itoje and its night and day. Jones has repeatedly said we were in the French 22 several times without success. I think hes gone some to remedying that with a 6 picked to get to that ruck and provide quick ball and a 9 who will hopefully not take an age to pass.

It's an area often overlooked because of all the benefits having Curry and Underhill in the team bring but sometimes a traditional six like a Haskell or a Dylan Hartley who will hit ruck after ruck is exactly what you need.

[lostinwales]

I have a suspicion Eddie Jones doesnt really give a jot about the actual scrum makeup...so long as it does the job.

He is more bothered about what the players do around the field...hence he's not bothered about actual specialists.

But then thats a very Aussie way of thinking in rugby...the numbers on the back of a shirt are merely that...

As long as the pack gets balanced that Jones-ism couldn't bother me less to be honest.

6.Fardy
7.Hooper
8.Pocock

When that first got picked it looked ridiculous but it performed as one of the most dominant back rows in modern times.

I really rate Ludlam but think Earl would be better suited to starting as an extra carrier. From this squad I'd definitely have both in the 23, just starting Earl. I think Lawes should be starting as well. Itoje had a really poor game against France and Lawes has been offering more than him as a carrier in recent times.

Mako being back adds a carrier. That's a good example of balance. Were Billy, Manu and Cokanasiga available I'd love to see them start as carriers with Marler starting as the better scrummager. With injuries to a lot of our stronger carriers I think Mako starting is a good call though. I'm glad that Genge has kept the bench spot as well.

With Farrell, Daly, Joseph and Devoto all covering several positions I like the 6-2 bench split a lot. 2 centres on the bench looked like covering a half fit Manu being in the starting XV. Whereas the 6-2 split can be used as a real weapon on 50 minutes, as the Boks have shown to devastating effect in recent times.

Was it really that dominant or was it one of the main reasons why Australia have struggled so much in recent years?

The problem for openside flankers is that in some games they are the most important players on the pitch, but against the wrong team and tactics they can be peripheral and useless. I guess one of the key things about those England games were that the combination of of Robshaw doing his thing and Haskell blasting the Aussie back out of the rucks left Hooper in the role of auxillary center, Pocock injured and far too much work on the shoulders of Fardy. Fardy then seemed to get blamed for being a one man backrow and not quite coping.

[king_carlos]

I have a suspicion Eddie Jones doesnt really give a jot about the actual scrum makeup...so long as it does the job.

He is more bothered about what the players do around the field...hence he's not bothered about actual specialists.

But then thats a very Aussie way of thinking in rugby...the numbers on the back of a shirt are merely that...

As long as the pack gets balanced that Jones-ism couldn't bother me less to be honest.

6.Fardy
7.Hooper
8.Pocock

When that first got picked it looked ridiculous but it performed as one of the most dominant back rows in modern times.

I really rate Ludlam but think Earl would be better suited to starting as an extra carrier. From this squad I'd definitely have both in the 23, just starting Earl. I think Lawes should be starting as well. Itoje had a really poor game against France and Lawes has been offering more than him as a carrier in recent times.

Mako being back adds a carrier. That's a good example of balance. Were Billy, Manu and Cokanasiga available I'd love to see them start as carriers with Marler starting as the better scrummager. With injuries to a lot of our stronger carriers I think Mako starting is a good call though. I'm glad that Genge has kept the bench spot as well.

With Farrell, Daly, Joseph and Devoto all covering several positions I like the 6-2 bench split a lot. 2 centres on the bench looked like covering a half fit Manu being in the starting XV. Whereas the 6-2 split can be used as a real weapon on 50 minutes, as the Boks have shown to devastating effect in recent times.

Was it really that dominant or was it one of the main reasons why Australia have struggled so much in recent years?

Prior to Fardy retiring it was absolutely fantastic, yes. That back rows performances in the RWC were outstanding. No coincidence that it took Kaino, McCaw and Read to better them. Fardy hasn't played international rugby since 2016 so kind of futile discussing that back row in 'recent years'!

Once Fardy retired from interntaional rugby they struggled to replace his grunt work and the balance was shot. Which is kind of the point we are all discussing. Balancing the pack is key.

[Soul Requiem]

Not wanting to labour the point too much but that back row was outstanding for a few months in 2015, I'd be interested to know how many matches they actually played together, can't have been a huge amount.

[Geordie]

I think part of the reason, the main part, is lawes was pretty ineffective in attacking rucks. Compare that to itoje and its night and day. Jones has repeatedly said we were in the French 22 several times without success. I think hes gone some to remedying that with a 6 picked to get to that ruck and provide quick ball and a 9 who will hopefully not take an age to pass.

It's an area often overlooked because of all the benefits having Curry and Underhill in the team bring but sometimes a traditional six like a Haskell or a Dylan Hartley who will hit ruck after ruck is exactly what you need.

You mean like Ted HIll?

[king_carlos]

Well that was bleedin' awful. Got the win eventually in terrible conditions but far from a good performance. Game management was once again missing.

Positives

- The scrum was good once again
- Given the conditions our line-out ran much better than most would
- Underhill and Curry were outstanding again
- Ben Earl looked very strong in his brief appearance
- Ben Youngs showed better game management when he came on

Negatives

- Terrible game management for large spells, particularly the first 20 minutes of the second half
- Lack of initiative being shown when the game plan isn't working
- The Ford-Farrell axis without Manu at centre isn't functioning
- Furbank had a second rough game. It was awful conditions for a fullback and I hope Furbank is given the Ireland game. In the second half it was noticeable that Furbank wasn't even coming forward for high balls and on a couple of occasions I think May was standing at fullback - though I'd need to watch the game back to be sure of that!

[formerly known as Sam]

I'm not sure about giving Furbank the Ireland game. He's not looked comfortable at this level. If Nowell is fit it's a no brainer. Ireland love the up and under and Sexton will make Furbank's afternoon absolutely miserable if he's not on it.

[TightHEAD]

We need Watson back, Daly to FB again

[lostinwales]

May seemed to be taking the majority of the high balls. Another hard working display on a day that wasn't meant for wingers.

[lostinwales]

I'll also add that Ben Earls only had a short cameo, but fitted in seamlessly. Very promising

[lostinwales]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

[nlpnlp]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

Really ??? You think that is funny or clever or worth reposting??? Sad fluck.

[lostinwales]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

Really ???  You think that is funny or clever or worth reposting???  Sad fluck.

As a sad fluck I obviously need educating. Please tell me why that is not funny? Is the man not allowed to have a mind of his own? Should he be bowing and tugging his forelock when the masters of the internet decree that his actions post game were somehow, what, lacking in class? Is that how you feel about him? Is that how you feel about me for posting it?

Its a free country and you can think what you like. Personally I thought it was a decent reposte to some dumb comments, and follows on from the interesting reaction to his interview earlier.

[Rugby Fan]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

Really ???  You think that is funny or clever or worth reposting???  Sad fluck.

Regardless of what you think of Genge's tweet, it is clearly worth posting here as it has become a talking point after the match.

[Soul Requiem]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

Really ???  You think that is funny or clever or worth reposting???  Sad fluck.

Does someone need to get a sense of humour, good on Genge.

[adambarney]

Genge is really improving his all round game look good for future I think Launchbury really add size to our pack good option on bench plus Earl is really dynamic and quick the back row of curry Underhill Earl is very quick and aggressive

[Geordie]

https://twitter.com/EllisGenge/status/1226261445647781889?s=20

Really ???  You think that is funny or clever or worth reposting???  Sad fluck.

Really??? You a snowflake like?

[LondonTiger]

Interesting that Genge is being criticised for drinking what appears to be a bottle of the sponsors brew.

[LondonTiger]

https://www.ruck.co.uk/list-6-times-ellis-genge-proved-he-was-a-legend/3/

[carpet baboon]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

[Gooseberry]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Who is?

[mikey_dragon]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Isn't the best coach either.

[Soul Requiem]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Isn't the best coach either.

Beat Wales comfortably enough!!!

[majesticimperialman]

I do hope the curry ar 8 ends soon. I do not like the idea of playing players out of position.

Any know if Manu will be back for the next game?

[mikey_dragon]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Isn't the best coach either.

Beat Wales comfortably enough!!!

Hardly a ringing endorsement.

[No 7&1/2]

If there are to be any changes it's going to have to be now with the gap in games. I'd still like spencer and Dombrandt in but alas it isnt going to happen.

[mikey_dragon]

If there are to be any changes it's going to have to be now with the gap in games. I'd still like spencer and Dombrandt in but alas it isnt going to happen.

Would agree with that. Is Slade due to return any time soon?

[No 7&1/2]

Last I saw both slade and tuilagi may return for ireland.

[carpet baboon]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Who is?

The only 2 international captains still playing who I can think of as being up there with the best are AWJ and Kolisi

[carpet baboon]

Anyone think maybe Farrell isn't the best captain??

Isn't the best coach either.

Mikey we all get it. You dont like Ireland and your not happy Wales lost.
Give it a rest

[SecretFly]

Last I saw both slade and tuilagi may return for ireland.

Oh of course. Just had to be, didn't it. Ireland's luck runneth out?

[No 7&1/2]

And england are due for some.

[Geordie]

Dupont showing what a fast quality scrum half gives you....

[mikey_dragon]

Any truth to the Erasmus rumour? 

Eddie Jones to replace Townsend too... actually I just made that one up.

[SecretFly]

Any truth to the Erasmus rumour? 

Eddie Jones to replace Townsend too... actually I just made that one up.

He'd do it too if there was enough money in it. Nothing he'd like more than showing he has the magic with any side. Japan, England...why not Scotland.

[Gooseberry]

Any truth to the Erasmus rumour? 

Eddie Jones to replace Townsend too... actually I just made that one up.

He'd do it too if there was enough money in it.  Nothing he'd like more than showing he has the magic with any side.  Japan, England...why not Scotland.

I doubt hed like getting the train home

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