Wales vs France - Round 3 “Redemption”

First topic message reminder :

Getting your backside kicked and realising your faults can make you a far better and stronger team. Should you go on for a lengthy period without teams finding the flaws in your game you are likely to get a big surprise one day when said period ends..!

Ireland played really well last Saturday, they found flaws in wales defence and attack. I think we all knew our set piece hasn’t been world class but that has been the case for a long time.

Next we face the French, now one of only two teams who can claim a grandslam should their winning run continue and they look pretty handy. They neither look like the french teams of old, Sella, Penaud, Blanco and St Andre nor do they look like the recent sides of Vahmina, Basteraud and an endless stream of different flyhalfs.

Both teams are new to their coaches, both teams are looking to push on from their past and polish their game. France look better than this time last year, Wales maybe not so much...!

Sure going to be a great game.

Wales:

15. Leigh Halfpenny (87 Caps)
14. George North (93 Caps)
13. Nick Tompkins (2 Caps)
12. Hadleigh Parkes (27 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (23 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (81 Caps)
9. Gareth Davies (52 Caps)

1. Wyn Jones (24 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (75 Caps)
3. Dillon Lewis (24 Caps)
4. Jake Ball (44 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (136 Caps)
6. Ross Moriarty (43 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (74 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (74 Caps)

Replacements:
16. Ryan Elias (11 Caps)
17. Rob Evans (37 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (8 Caps)
19. Will Rowlands (Uncapped)
20. Aaron Wainwright (20 Caps)
21. Tomos Williams (18 Caps)
22. Jarrod Evans (5 Caps)
23. Johnny McNicholl (2 Caps)


France

15. Anthony Bouthier (Montpellier)
14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)
13. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing 92)
12. Arthur Vincent (Montpellier)
11. Gaël Fickou (Stade Français)
10. Romain Ntamack (Toulouse)
9. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse)

1. Cyril Baille (Toulouse)
2. Julien Marchand (Toulouse)
3. Mohamed Haouas (Montpellier)
4. Bernard Le Roux (Racing 92)
5. Paul Willemse (Montpellier)
6. François Cros (Toulouse)
7. Charles Ollivon (Toulon) (c)
8. Grégory Alldritt (La Rochelle)

Replacements:
16. Camille Chat (Racing 92)
17. Jean-Baptiste Gros (Toulon)
18. Demba Bamba (Lyon)
19. Romain Taofifenua (Toulon)
20. Dylan Cretin (Lyon)
21. Baptiste Serin (Toulon)
22. Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux-Bègles)
23. Thomas Ramos (Toulouse)

Callum Sheedy would be my choice, playing well for Bristol this season

maestegmafia wrote:Callum Sheedy would be my choice, playing well for Bristol this season

Very creative player but plays very open I'm not sure he would offer the required game management for an international game. Could be a good option off the bench to inject some pace into the game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes and I also agree that RP isn’t up to it.

Depends what you want from your 10. Priestland has been good for Bath this season though it's as a very percentage based style of play with Burns either at 15 or introduced off the bench if they want more flair. I can't see that style of play suiting what Wales want to achieve under Pivac.

We tend to utilise both styles, Biggar is so useful for us because he’s usually flawless. RP is one of those fly-halves that will do something good and follow it up with something bad. We need a more flawless player as we can’t afford the loss of possession and territory that he would bring.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Callum Sheedy would be my choice, playing well for Bristol this season

Very creative player but plays very open I'm not sure he would offer the required game management for an international game. Could be a good option off the bench to inject some pace into the game.

I’m not entirely sure if Sheedy is interested. I’d have him and Sam Davies over RP though. Dan Jones has looked abysmal since his return. 

Two good fly-halves out injured, potentially a third plus a back-up who we were planning to integrate. I’m not sure anyone else has as much bad luck with injuries.

I wonder if wellies wouldn’t mind putting his boots on for an extra cap? Or Jenks ? Ha ha ha

Amazing to think that despite all the very relevant points made on this thread that rugby matches are so often decided by the gain line battle. More about fighting spirit and will power than tactics. Get on the front foot, and stop the opposition doing so, and the game becomes so much easier. Both sides will be up for this but Wales losing at home? That will take some effort. If France come out all fired up will they be able to maintain it as Wales showed against England last year they can deliver in the 2nd half. Wales to win a close one for me.

hugehandoff wrote:Amazing to think that despite all the very relevant points made on this thread that rugby matches are so often decided by the gain line battle. More about fighting spirit and will power than tactics. Get on the front foot, and stop the opposition doing so, and the game becomes so much easier.  Both sides will be up for this but Wales losing at home? That will take some effort. If France come out all fired up will they be able to maintain it as Wales showed against England last year they can deliver in the 2nd half. Wales to win a close one for me.

That was certainly the character that wales have been showing for the last 18 months

It could be said Wales should only have deservedly won one (Italy) of their last 5 games.
Previously against France even Gats said the best team lost.
So current form isn’t that great.
The Principality factor equals things up against a potentially young & fearless French team.

It could also be said, we should've beaten SA too

Wales by 5

RiscaGame wrote:It could also be said, we should've beaten SA too

Priestland rumours sound like a slow news week but maybe there is substance there. Jarrod Evans was poor when he came on against Ireland and took a back foot. Nothing dreadful but the game (and Pivac's style of play) needs the 10 to be much more proactive. I can see why he is worried as Biggar is a fantastic player but not a playmaker in the Ancsombe or Patchell mould and Evans is still very inexperienced. Priestland has played fantastically for Bath or several years and was always a much better passer than Biggar but you cannot rip up the rule now it would just make a mockery of it.

This should be a great game for the neutral. Both teams playing an offloading game and looking to move the ball around. France's forward power might be the difference but then Wales at home and France away puts the balance back in our favour I think.

Great couple of quotes for the build up surrounding the scrum.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/0218/1116106-wales-hit-out-at-furlongs-scrum-technique/

I hope the referees take note.

"Someone like Furlong is going to come right across the scrum from left to right." - a tighthead driving from 'left to right' across the scrum?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Great couple of quotes for the build up surrounding the scrum.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/0218/1116106-wales-hit-out-at-furlongs-scrum-technique/

I hope the referees take note.

"Someone like Furlong is going to come right across the scrum from left to right." - a tighthead driving from 'left to right' across the scrum?

depends which side you are supporting from.

As you face the opposition their tighthead is on the left hand side.

Let me see.... Wales are playing France at the weekend?  But they choose to save some chat time for Irish player Furlong.  
Ireland plays England.  Wales can still do well if they win all their remaining games.  They have a shot at England but can't get another crack at Ireland, so weighing the scales in favour of England might assist the fortunes of Wales in that final week if Ireland were to lose.

Nice.  Welsh coaching staff support England at the weekend (no problem - all us fair in love and war); and they support England to the extent that they help Eddie out in the pre-game Ref warning about cheatin' Furlong.

Ireland get back to familiar territory after a bad 2019.  We're now 'cheats' again (along with the French).  That's good news.  All is well.  It means folks think we're genuine contenders again

I do feel that Wales will win fairly comfortably but I'm surprised that wyn jones is speaking out about france cheating in the scrum. Can lead to refs thinking why is he speaking about the scrum are they that worried.

He probably isn't that far wrong, on this occasion he just happens to be singling out France. You could probably say similar about most teams. Saying it before kick-off is always a dangerous game to play though.

Wales have been putting a lot of pressure on their scrum before this game. Humphreys has spoken a lot about scrummaging straight, before a ball was kicked this tournament (interviews about Leon Brown etc).

If they feel like they had a bum end of a deal against Ireland, they aren’t doing it to help England though. They’re mentioning it, so they’re trying to convince refs Wales aren’t the problem. Trouble is of course, neither Lewis or Brown have a great reputation as scrummagers.

Which is why it makes sense to find a place for John and allow him to build a good rep, or at least try to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do feel that Wales will win fairly comfortably but I'm surprised that wyn jones is speaking out about france cheating in the scrum. Can lead to refs thinking why is he speaking about the scrum are they that worried.

So that’s the interpretation that’s wrong in the first game against Italy.
Fuhrlong not scrumming straight in the second game and France are cheats at scrum time in the next game.
I don’t think Wales will have anywhere to go if there are scrum penalties awarded against them again this weekend.

Has Sam Davies actually been called into the squad? Can’t remember seeing it anywhere. Would be odd if he hasn’t, but read that the current U20s fly-half has been helping out in training.

Yeah. All scrums have a balance but on most count refs are fairly correct especially the french guys imo despite some moaning. Wales scrum is currently under progress. England look to have the strongest and the guys france start with can be got at. Reckon that the first 20 could set the scene but at 60 kings I expect france to come back

Interesting, 7.5. 60 mins is when Wales usually pull away after a close first 60.

France scrum (and line out) is by far the worst of the 6N. Only goal is to get the ball as quick as possible to the 8 before someone collapses it. The days were French sides were milking scrum penalties are (hopefully) long gone. Coaches will tend to pick props that have stamina, can tackle and get the odd turnover and with Edwards in I can’t see that trend changing . Would be nice if they were good scrummagers too but at international level I feel this has more to do with « experience » .

Hey we'll see Oracle. I've been very wrong before and it'll happen again! It had been hit and miss with scrummaging this 6 nations probably because theres a lot of new combos in packs. Personally I think wales are a touch behind france but I'll how to whocares as more of an expert eye.

Haven’t followed the Biggar story but wasn’t his concussions against Ireland the 2nd one in 12 months ?

whocares wrote:Haven’t followed the Biggar story  but wasn’t his concussions against Ireland the 2nd one in 12 months ?  

Yes, it’s touch and go whether he’ll make this game. We’ve drafted in some other 10s (far down the pecking order due to our injury problems). However, the talk is that Biggar will start v France after passing the return to play protocols. Fingers crossed!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey we'll see Oracle. I've been very wrong before and it'll happen again! It had been hit and miss with scrummaging this 6 nations probably because theres a lot of new combos in packs. Personally I think wales are a touch behind france but I'll how to whocares as more of an expert eye.

Not saying we’ll definitely pull away. However, the late surge was a very noticeable feature of Wales over the last x number of years. Just think the England and France games in the last 6N grand slam. Pretty much all of our games during the World Cup (Fiji, France, Uruguay, etc.). Not sure how or why we do it but it seems to be something we came to rely on. I’d prefer we didn’t and just built a lead early on!

Nope, the surges worked because they were surges - just when tired teams want a quiet life to cruise to the finishing point with just enough points for the win...."Hey? What's this? F**king Wales want to start this game again?" ...... soul destroying.

But...... lest we forget, two important and different coaches coached it.

very poor refs in both games at the scrum. ireland got away with a lot in dublin as expected but also the italians were allowed to drive in and early. understandable that a big heavy french pack with a history of cheating should be called out. conspiracy theories about this being anti irish. the scrum free kick helped ireland win the game so we dont want the same happening again.

guestalt_physicality wrote:conspiracy theories about this being anti irish.

It's not anti-Irish to say we cheat.  If you believe it, say it.  But the issue I always have with the accusation is that it infers Wales are purists and Saintly, relying only on super skill to win games, and that the only way they can lose to an Irish team is when we cheat and get a ref that looks the other way whilst we do so.  Three wins now on the trot and in each the loud accusation of cheating echoing in our ears.

That's a story that's a long time in the telling and yep, it gets tiresome when you're from a land with some pretty good skilled players of our own.

Eventually wales will get on top in the scrum....and that'll be the time the refs got it right....right?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eventually wales will get on top in the scrum....and that'll be the time the refs got it right....right?

Cough cough 'Adam Jones' cough. A lot of crying wolf going on at the moment


(And for reference purposes pushing the rules was Jones' job, upholding them was the referee's - and it looked to me as if one guy was doing his job and the other one wasn't)

From The Times

SIX NATIONS | ROB DEBNEY
Romain Poite could have penalised Wales more than he did – this looks like deflection to me
Rob Debney, Former international referee
Wednesday February 19 2020, 12.00am, The Times
Each scrum is an occasion. You can win nine out of ten but that doesn’t matter if you lose the important one.

I am one of few front-rowers to have gone into refereeing and so I liked overseeing the scrum – though that did not make me an expert. There are not many scrum experts around the world. It is a puzzle, a tactical challenge. Some referees like it, learn as much as they can. Some just hope for the best. You won’t get it right 100 per cent of the time but you have to get the obvious decisions, the one your granny in row Z could see.

Props will be looking to change the dynamics of the scrum, putting in just a little bit of movement, a slight flex in the hips, maybe a pull of the arm — anything to destabilise the opposition. It is only illegal if you get caught.

Romain Poite will have refereed Wales and Ireland about a dozen times apiece. They know what they get with him. It is a game of chess, and players and coaches are usually one move ahead.

For Ireland’s scrum in the 56th minute, the home side’s front row get the shove on, it goes to ground, Ireland play the ball and Conor Murray clears his lines. Their front row are parallel, moving forward and straight. You can, however, see space between Ken Owens and Dillon Lewis, Wales’s hooker and tight-head prop.

In the image below Tadhg Furlong, the Ireland tight-head, is particularly straight. He has won this scrum. The concern for me would be Wyn Jones, the Welsh loose-head, coming round the corner. He moves his hips out, struggling to deal with the pressure. It is a strong Irish scrum. If anything, Romain could have given a penalty to Ireland as Jones and Owens end up almost sideways, while Ross Moriarty, the flanker, is trying to bolster his loose-head. Believe it or not, referees give penalties only when they have to.


The contentious scrum, according to Wales, happens in the 63rd minute. There are two resets to start off with and Romain switches sides to examine the contest between Lewis and Dave Kilcoyne. The assistant referee is about 65 metres away. It would be a big call for him to penalise his side of the scrum. He would say to Romain: “There are problems on my side, come have a look.”

My first thought when Romain ruled in favour of Ireland was: good penalty. Lewis’s legs are far back, as you can see below. We say that props should “chase their feet”. The Welsh tight-head could not support the pressure from Kilcoyne.


Normally France have a strong scrum. The Welsh remarks that their opponents will “cheat” this weekend sound like deflection. This is making people look at the opposition after a match where the Welsh scrum was under pressure — it is all part of international mind games.

As for England’s opponents on Sunday, Furlong is in the top three tight-head props in the world for scrummaging. He is big and strong, technically superb and experienced. England will cope with Ireland technically but they will have to work hard to get the control they need. They are up to it. Mako Vunipola will be missed in the loose but England lose nothing at the scrum by having Joe Marler. There were no problems in the scrum against France and the Scotland game was in such horrid conditions that it is difficult to criticise anyone.

The Oracle wrote:

whocares wrote:Haven’t followed the Biggar story  but wasn’t his concussions against Ireland the 2nd one in 12 months ?  

Yes, it’s touch and go whether he’ll make this game.  We’ve drafted in some other 10s (far down the pecking order due to our injury problems).  However, the talk is that Biggar will start v France after passing the return to play protocols.  Fingers crossed!

Yes, it seems that Biggar is fully training, but still under the return to play protocol. His concussion this time, was different to the one he suffered previously so not as bad. Obviously still a concern, but clearly our medical team aren't going to unnecessarily risk him.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:From The Times

SIX NATIONS | ROB DEBNEY
Romain Poite could have penalised Wales more than he did – this looks like deflection to me
Rob Debney, Former international referee
Wednesday February 19 2020, 12.00am, The Times
Each scrum is an occasion. You can win nine out of ten but that doesn’t matter if you lose the important one.

I am one of few front-rowers to have gone into refereeing and so I liked overseeing the scrum – though that did not make me an expert. There are not many scrum experts around the world. It is a puzzle, a tactical challenge. Some referees like it, learn as much as they can. Some just hope for the best. You won’t get it right 100 per cent of the time but you have to get the obvious decisions, the one your granny in row Z could see.

Props will be looking to change the dynamics of the scrum, putting in just a little bit of movement, a slight flex in the hips, maybe a pull of the arm — anything to destabilise the opposition. It is only illegal if you get caught.

Romain Poite will have refereed Wales and Ireland about a dozen times apiece. They know what they get with him. It is a game of chess, and players and coaches are usually one move ahead.

For Ireland’s scrum in the 56th minute, the home side’s front row get the shove on, it goes to ground, Ireland play the ball and Conor Murray clears his lines. Their front row are parallel, moving forward and straight. You can, however, see space between Ken Owens and Dillon Lewis, Wales’s hooker and tight-head prop.

In the image below Tadhg Furlong, the Ireland tight-head, is particularly straight. He has won this scrum. The concern for me would be Wyn Jones, the Welsh loose-head, coming round the corner. He moves his hips out, struggling to deal with the pressure. It is a strong Irish scrum. If anything, Romain could have given a penalty to Ireland as Jones and Owens end up almost sideways, while Ross Moriarty, the flanker, is trying to bolster his loose-head. Believe it or not, referees give penalties only when they have to.


The contentious scrum, according to Wales, happens in the 63rd minute. There are two resets to start off with and Romain switches sides to examine the contest between Lewis and Dave Kilcoyne. The assistant referee is about 65 metres away. It would be a big call for him to penalise his side of the scrum. He would say to Romain: “There are problems on my side, come have a look.”

My first thought when Romain ruled in favour of Ireland was: good penalty. Lewis’s legs are far back, as you can see below. We say that props should “chase their feet”. The Welsh tight-head could not support the pressure from Kilcoyne.


Normally France have a strong scrum. The Welsh remarks that their opponents will “cheat” this weekend sound like deflection. This is making people look at the opposition after a match where the Welsh scrum was under pressure — it is all part of international mind games.

As for England’s opponents on Sunday, Furlong is in the top three tight-head props in the world for scrummaging. He is big and strong, technically superb and experienced. England will cope with Ireland technically but they will have to work hard to get the control they need. They are up to it. Mako Vunipola will be missed in the loose but England lose nothing at the scrum by having Joe Marler. There were no problems in the scrum against France and the Scotland game was in such horrid conditions that it is difficult to criticise anyone.

Interesting read. I am sure I vaguely recall one of our props constantly binding on the arm of his opposing prop (probably Lewis), which in itself is illegal anyway. But we are apparently trying to scrummage straight, bless us.

SecretFly wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:conspiracy theories about this being anti irish.

It's not anti-Irish to say we cheat.  If you believe it, say it.  But the issue I always have with the accusation is that it infers Wales are purists and Saintly, relying only on super skill to win games, and that the only way they can lose to an Irish team is when we cheat and get a ref that looks the other way whilst we do so.  Three wins now on the trot and in each the loud accusation of cheating echoing in our ears.

That's a story that's a long time in the telling and yep, it gets tiresome when you're from a land with some pretty good skilled players of our own.

I just meant that your suggestion for Wyn Jones and Wales talking about the scrums and Furlong this week has nothing to do with Ireland and everything to do with Wales and France. They're not trying to influence referees so England beat Ireland. That would be ridiculous to focus on given they've just lost a game and have bigger problems to worry about.

On facebook yesterday Rugbyonslaught said - Biggar should not play.

https://rugbyonslaught.com/this-video-is-for-anyone-that-says-the-game-of-rugby-has-gone-soft/


IMHO Biggar should not play, safety first. as a Bath fan I think Preistland would do a good job for Wales this weekend.

TightHEAD wrote:On facebook yesterday Rugbyonslaught said - Biggar should not play.

https://rugbyonslaught.com/this-video-is-for-anyone-that-says-the-game-of-rugby-has-gone-soft/


IMHO Biggar should not play, safety first. as a Bath fan I think Preistland would do a good job for Wales this weekend.

Good decision that. He should be fine with 2 training days in the squad shouldn't he?

I worry we might be heading towards a situation where Hadleigh Parkes lines up at 10 at some point.

Team up tomorrow

Don’t see many wholesale changes coming. Maybe Watkin in?

Throwing Watkin in seems a bit desperate, and he hasn’t exactly earned his place. Why are Ospreys still not playing him at 12....

mikey_dragon wrote:Throwing Watkin in seems a bit desperate, and he hasn’t exactly earned his place. Why are Ospreys still not playing him at 12....

Thought he did a tidy job at 13. Keiron on great form at 12.

I guess the other change might be at nine.

9? Is TW injured? If not, I’d keep TW as he’s looked good.

The Oracle wrote:9? Is TW injured?  If not, I’d keep TW as he’s looked good.

No all three are fit.

If Tomos gets selected ahead of a fit and firing Gareth Davies I guess that makes him our first choice nine now...? I’d really like to see Webby get another crack at it. On form he is a superb player.

I think GD slipped a bit at international level, and TW was coming off the bench and improving things. TW has since been the starting 9 and has been very good. I think GD is a great 9 and don’t mind him starting but he needs to be really forcing TW out, and TW needs to be slipping, which I’m not seeing at the mo. Webb is great on form, as you say, but again needs to earn it. Needs to be putting in awesome Ospreys performances get the starting jersey, for me.

The Oracle wrote:I think GD slipped a bit at international level, and TW was coming off the bench and improving things.  TW has since been the starting 9 and has been very good.  I think GD is a great 9 and don’t mind him starting but he needs to be really forcing TW out, and TW needs to be slipping, which I’m not seeing at the mo.  Webb is great on form, as you say, but again needs to earn it. Needs to be putting in awesome Ospreys performances get the starting jersey, for me.

Webb needs a chance to play. He is not technically an osprey until the summer. Toulon have replaced him.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eventually wales will get on top in the scrum....and that'll be the time the refs got it right....right?

Cough cough 'Adam Jones' cough. A lot of crying wolf going on at the moment


(And for reference purposes pushing the rules was Jones' job, upholding them was the referee's - and it looked to me as if one guy was doing his job and the other one wasn't)

See I read it as we will cheat back when he said the bit about Wales needing to use "technical" scrummaging this weekend. It's only illegal if you get caught is the mantra, and front rows always have a choice to makenon how "technical" they get vs focus on pushing straight and hard.

The language teams use is always to infer when they donit its OK but when the opposition does it isn't. That's just part and parcel of the culture of the game. But read technical as "the dark arts".

maestegmafia wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think GD slipped a bit at international level, and TW was coming off the bench and improving things.  TW has since been the starting 9 and has been very good.  I think GD is a great 9 and don’t mind him starting but he needs to be really forcing TW out, and TW needs to be slipping, which I’m not seeing at the mo.  Webb is great on form, as you say, but again needs to earn it. Needs to be putting in awesome Ospreys performances get the starting jersey, for me.

Webb needs a chance to play. He is not technically an osprey until the summer. Toulon have replaced him.

Exactly, so I'd be against putting him straight in at the top level of rugby. He needs to earn the spot. TW has earned it.

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think GD slipped a bit at international level, and TW was coming off the bench and improving things.  TW has since been the starting 9 and has been very good.  I think GD is a great 9 and don’t mind him starting but he needs to be really forcing TW out, and TW needs to be slipping, which I’m not seeing at the mo.  Webb is great on form, as you say, but again needs to earn it. Needs to be putting in awesome Ospreys performances get the starting jersey, for me.

Webb needs a chance to play. He is not technically an osprey until the summer. Toulon have replaced him.

Exactly, so I'd be against putting him straight in at the top level of rugby. He needs to earn the spot. TW has earned it.

I agree. Shame that he can’t play for a club to get game time