Eng V Ireland Sunday 23rd Feb 2020

First topic message reminder :


3pm at Twickers.
Ref: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France), Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France), TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)

England:: Daly; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Joseph; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade.




Ireland: Ireland: Larmour; Conway, Henshaw, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, O'Mahony, van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Byrne, Earls.

Also...Slade on the bench...hasnt played in how long...and how is his injury?

This really is a farcical selection from Eddie.

I think JJ will do a better job on the wing than North playing centre but still a strange call.

That would be great news if we were playing Wales

BamBam wrote:That would be great news if we were playing Wales

Why post that. Chill out man.

it was a fare comparison seeing as its topical to play players out of position.

I really wasnt expecting another 6 2 bench. Could either be the injuries to backs mean that the newer guys arent as trusted (strange if its that as furbank has come from no where to start) or Proudfoot has had a big impact on selections. If it's the 2nd it's going to come back and bite us sooner or later.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really wasnt expecting another 6 2 bench. Could either be the injuries to backs mean that the newer guys arent as trusted (strange if its that as furbank has come from no where to start) or Proudfoot has had a big impact on selections. If it's the 2nd it's going to come back and bite us sooner or later.

I'd be interested to know how many times Itoje has played the full 80 minutes of a match, I can't remember him being replaced too many times.

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really wasnt expecting another 6 2 bench. Could either be the injuries to backs mean that the newer guys arent as trusted (strange if its that as furbank has come from no where to start) or Proudfoot has had a big impact on selections. If it's the 2nd it's going to come back and bite us sooner or later.

I'd be interested to know how many times Itoje has played the full 80 minutes of a match, I can't remember him being replaced too many times.

Yes and its not as if they are banking on shifting him to 6 either.

That is a disappointing selection, the Itoje - Kruis pairing is presumably to try and out shove the Irish selection, neither of whom are immense.I can see why Lawes is there, no proper 8 means we will lack physicality in the back row in terms of sheer bulk, Lawes is a stone and a half heavier than any of the other back rowers and much better in the line out where we will need options on our own ball as Ireland will surely challenge anything to the back. We will need one of our best jumpers there.

Lawes and Itoje both operate like flankers in open play, the assumption I suppose is that between them they cover the work of a 6 whilst offering three top class jumpers and a bit more heft around the fringes.

Feel sorry for Ludlam though, one of our better players against Scotland to not even in the 23 Sunday.

Still struggling to believe that JJ is selected on the wing when Thorley is in the squad, he must have made a poor impression in training.

I think I would sooner have a 7th prop than Ewels, he is too lightweight for an international lock and 5 locks in the 23 is absurd.

If there's one thing I don't like about international rugby, it's when players are played out of position.

Lawes is a lock.
Curry is a flanker.
Joseph is an outside centre.
Daly is an outside centre.
Farrell is a fly half.

Can see us sending a fair few high balls JJs way as Conway is very good in the air.
They will test his and Daly's positioning

Mr Bounce wrote:If there's one thing I don't like about international rugby, it's when players are played out of position.

Lawes is a lock.
Curry is a flanker.
Joseph is an outside centre.
Daly is an outside centre.
Farrell is a fly half.

But surely it's about winning... or losing? Have the team won any games when Farrell didn't play as flyhalf?

May well be may covering the entire backline like when daly was sent off vs Argentina Carpet!

Jones is really doubling down on picking Curry at 8. None of the selected other back 5 players have experience at 8. If he gets injured I assume one of the 5 selected locks will need to move out of position. I expect Murray and Sexton will be kicking to Daly and Joseph every time they get slow ball.
Ireland have a great chance of winning this one if they get set piece parity.

Earl has covered 8 a lot. Lacks a bit of size for our recent choices but better than curry imo.

Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

England in Twickers will be a big test regardless of the team they put out. In 2009 when Ireland scraped past England at home by 1 point their side was one of the worst on paper I can remember and we still struggled to put them away. this was their side that day:

England: D Armitage, Sackey, Tindall, Flutey, Cueto, Flood, Ellis, Sheridan, Mears, Vickery, Borthwick, Kennedy, Haskell, Worsley, Easter.

Replacements: Tait for Sackey (57), Goode for Flood (66), Care for Ellis (58), White for Sheridan (77), Hartley for Mears (66), Croft for Kennedy (69), Narraway for Easter (76).

The side that will start this weekend are much much better.

The baby should be reprimanded on all social media channels for being downright insensitive in the date chosen to arrive. It will disturb well-thought-out strategies by Farrell and Ireland International!

Pete330v2 wrote:Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

Nice one, fair play to him. Great player. Toner will not let us down, never has.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

Nice one, fair play to him. Great player. Toner will not let us down, never has.

It's hardly a step down having Toner start, for my money he's the better man for the high pressure at Twickers with our lineout needing to be as good as possible. I know being an Ulsterman I should say I'd prefer Hendo to be starting but for this game I prefer Toner. Hendo can have a rest, he'll be needing one when the night feeds start

Collapse2005 wrote:England in Twickers will be a big test regardless of the team they put out. In 2009 when Ireland scraped past England at home by 1 point their side was one of the worst on paper I can remember and we still struggled to put them away. this was their side that day:

England: D Armitage, Sackey, Tindall, Flutey, Cueto, Flood, Ellis, Sheridan, Mears, Vickery, Borthwick, Kennedy, Haskell, Worsley, Easter.

Replacements: Tait for Sackey (57), Goode for Flood (66), Care for Ellis (58), White for Sheridan (77), Hartley for Mears (66), Croft for Kennedy (69), Narraway for Easter (76).

The side that will start this weekend are much much better.

Not bad for what was virtually a one man team that year in the guise of Brian O'Driscoll.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

Nice one, fair play to him. Great player. Toner will not let us down, never has.

It's hardly a step down having Toner start, for my money he's the better man for the high pressure at Twickers with our lineout needing to be as good as possible. I know being an Ulsterman I should say I'd prefer Hendo to be starting but for this game I prefer Toner. Hendo can have a rest, he'll be needing one when the night feeds start

Might come back to haunt both of us but me too - I'd prefer Toner for this.

If Curry goes off, Daly has replaced an 8 in the past in one of the Aussie tests. Jones assures us everything is covered...

And that 2009 team... Mears ahead of Hartley. And that 2nd row was lightweight!

Part of me is wondering whether Eddie is being really clever and intends to split the attack right and left with a flyhalf, centre and back three player each side, forwards filling the gaps. Would make the very effective Irish backrow chase the ball a lot more and would be a lot harder for them to target the ball carrier at the breakdown. In defence effectively play three centres and two fullbacks to help nullify the kicking game and try to stop Ireland gaining momentum with their offloading game.

Sadly I think that won't be the case and it won't be us trying something outrageously dynamic and new but more of a cobbled together team.

Mr Bounce wrote:If Curry goes off, Daly has replaced an 8 in the past in one of the Aussie tests. Jones assures us everything is covered...

And that 2009 team... Mears ahead of Hartley. And that 2nd row was lightweight!

Downright polite to just say that second row was lightweight. I'm unsure how Kennedy ever got capped even with us struggling for lock quality. It's a concern when your 9 is more physical than your locks (you could always rely on Harry Ellis to put his head where other people wouldn't put their feet).

I was at that game in 2009, main thing I remember is the people around the pitch banging drums. Even the home fans started booing them. The game was awful too. O'Driscoll far and way above everyone. Drop goal and a forwards one metre try.

MichaelT wrote:I was at that game in 2009, main thing I remember is the people around the pitch banging drums. Even the home fans started booing them. The game was awful too. O'Driscoll far and way above everyone. Drop goal and a forwards one metre try.

Andy Goode was probably the second best player of the game and he only played 30 minutes or so. Terrible match.

Kennedy was a 606 darling over on the old forums, but turned out to be unbelievably lightweight for internationals. Did Borthwick cut his nose in that game?

BamBam wrote:Kennedy was a 606 darling over on the old forums, but turned out to be unbelievably lightweight for internationals. Did Borthwick cut his nose in that game?

Did he ever NOT cut his nose? Of course, the lightweight 2nd rows were probably keeping Simon Shaw out of the side.

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:Kennedy was a 606 darling over on the old forums, but turned out to be unbelievably lightweight for internationals. Did Borthwick cut his nose in that game?

Did he ever NOT cut his nose? Of course, the lightweight 2nd rows were probably keeping Simon Shaw out of the side.

How did Simon Shaw manage to have a 15 year England career and only amass 71 caps? He was almost always immense, after 2003 he should have been just about the first name on the team sheet.

Has there ever been a better scrimmaging second row?

Bruce!

Pete330v2 wrote:Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

Happy news for England you mean!

Soul Requiem wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:Kennedy was a 606 darling over on the old forums, but turned out to be unbelievably lightweight for internationals. Did Borthwick cut his nose in that game?

Did he ever NOT cut his nose? Of course, the lightweight 2nd rows were probably keeping Simon Shaw out of the side.

How did Simon Shaw manage to have a 15 year England career and only amass 71 caps? He was almost always immense, after 2003 he should have been just about the first name on the team sheet.

Has there ever been a better scrimmaging second row?

Brad Thorn?

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Iain Henderson has been ruled out due to family reasons with Devin Toner taking his place. Ultan Dillane will take the place on the bench.

*Edit* Henderson has a brand new baby so it's happy news all round.

Happy news for England you mean!

Dev is a bonus in the lineout and maul ,but he's not as good as a carrier as hendo.
Ultan is very good to bring on. Lots of power and pace

With this selection it makes me think Eddie is doing his best to get sacked and a decent pay off so he can swan off somewhere new.  He generally isn't one to hang around too long.  Add in his continual gaffs with the media.  

Obvious issues with this squad are:

6. A decent lock playing in a position he has repeatedly performed poorly in.
8. Playing a good 7 who has made a decent fist at playing as a 6 out of position at 8, where he clearly lacks the physicality, positional knowledge and skillset.
9. Alternating between two 9's who are getting on and who have never really convinced.
10/12. As Eddie can't make his mind up who is the best 10, he continues to bottle the decision and pick them both.
13. Has picked a player who lasted 15 minutes in his last game and has a bit of an injury list.  Odds on Manu pulling up injured in the first half?
14. Picking a centre at 14 because we don't have any other players who are specialist wingers and deserve a chance?
15. Picking a player at 15 who he has already decided isn't good enough to play their by picking Furbank.
20. Charlie Ewels who no one has any idea why he is in the squad.
23. Henry Slade is a good player, but has been injured for some time yet is expected to come straight back into an international and cover any position from 12 outwards.

nlpnlp wrote:With this selection it makes me think Eddie is doing his best to get sacked and a decent pay off so he can swan off somewhere new ...

That had crossed my mind too. But then bringing in a coach like Proudfoot could be taken as evidence he's still serious.

I remember Matt Proudfoot spent most of his career at Glasgow on a static bike in a local gym ( in the days before Scotstoun) because he was always injured. I always thought what a waste of money that big lump was, as even when he was fit he wasn't as good as his sheer size would suggest he should have been. Look at him now. World cup winning scrum coach and now earning a wage with England. It's a funny old world.

I'm not expecting too much out wide from this england team, however I'm expecting a war up front.

Neither team are in great form, but then given the nature of this 6 nations no-one is, I think most teams are at 70% or so, and France are benefiting from not being able to get much worse after the last decade of disaster!

Ireland have it in them, England surely go in favourites, but only very slight after seeing selections.

I don't think ireland have been tested yet, and in both games been given platform and points from nowhere, England must not do that to win!

Takes muddled thinking to a new level of perplexity. Just wonder what the former king of muddle Lancaster thinks of all this - he started all this play-anywhere tactic, way back. When we were rubbish.

I like the 6-2 bench split as I've said before. I don't like shoehorning 5 locks into a 23 though. Lawes being able to cover flanker is useful as versatility off the bench but I don't like it when he's starting. Particularly with the talent of Earl, Ludlam and Hill in the squad.

Joseph has plenty of experience on the wing but it largely came before his injuries. I worry he doesn't have the same explosive acceleration and footwork these days. I'd have much preferred Thorley start but I will be interested to see how JJs pace holds up out wide these days.

Larmour, Stockdale and Conway is a talented back three so I expect JJ and Daly to be under significant pressure.

Strange selection for me from Eddie, Ireland will win by a score I reckon. I'm going to watch at twickers and I've only seen England lose once out of eight games live so I might just be the lucky charm to see us over the line, will probably need it. Either way enjoy ladies and gentlemen, thank God the rugby is back!

nlpnlp wrote:With this selection it makes me think Eddie is doing his best to get sacked and a decent pay off so he can swan off somewhere new.  He generally isn't one to hang around too long.  Add in his continual gaffs with the media.  

Obvious issues with this squad are:

6. A decent lock playing in a position he has repeatedly performed poorly in.
8. Playing a good 7 who has made a decent fist at playing as a 6 out of position at 8, where he clearly lacks the physicality, positional knowledge and skillset.
9. Alternating between two 9's who are getting on and who have never really convinced.
10/12. As Eddie can't make his mind up who is the best 10, he continues to bottle the decision and pick them both.
13. Has picked a player who lasted 15 minutes in his last game and has a bit of an injury list.  Odds on Manu pulling up injured in the first half?
14. Picking a centre at 14 because we don't have any other players who are specialist wingers and deserve a chance?
15. Picking a player at 15 who he has already decided isn't good enough to play their by picking Furbank.
20. Charlie Ewels who no one has any idea why he is in the squad.
23. Henry Slade is a good player, but has been injured for some time yet is expected to come straight back into an international and cover any position from 12 outwards.

That doesn't strike me like Eddie Jones whatsoever. He's now the best coach left in the tournament. I predict he will handsomely beat at least one of Pivac or Farrell, if not both.

Marler and Sinckler vs Healy and Furlong
Just Ireland's advantage there for me. Marler and Healy are experience and very solid international props. Sinckler is the least experienced but a vital cog in England's side. Furlong for me is the best tighthead in the world and just tips the scale.

George vs Herring
England's advantage due to experience. I've been really impressed by Herring and took a punt on him in fantasy rugby that has paid off. George just takes this on experience though.

Itoje and Kruis vs Ryan and Toner
England's advantage for me on balance. Ryan is a potential Lions starter and Toner a very good player but I'd give the England pair this as they are balanced players. Henderson is a big loss.

Lawes, Underhill and Curry vs O'Mahony, van der Flier and Stander
I've rated the back rows as units for a reason. As a unit I'd say it's Ireland advantage. I rate Underhill and Curry incredibly highly but the Ireland back row is more balanced. Lawes can work at blindside in the right game plan but that game plan is yet to be seen fluidly this tournament. Stander is in excellent form at 8.

Youngs and Ford vs Murray and Sexton
Ireland's advantage. Four experienced players in mixed form. I'd argue Ford is in best form individually of the 4 but Ireland better form as a partnership. Murray gives Ireland a real weapon against Daly and Joseph in the back three.

Farrell and Tuilagi vs Henshaw and Aki
Evens for me. If Manu isn't fully fit it will be Ireland's advantage though. 4 good players with different skill sets. This centre battle will be absolutely vital and fascinating.

Joseph, May and Daly vs Stockdale, Conway and Larmour
Ireland's advantage. Larmour and Stockdale are very dangerous runners, whilst Conway is acting as the glue between them with an impressive start to the tournament. England have May in exceptional form then two players in mixed form and outside their best positions. I hope JJ proves me wrong but I'm not sure he has the pace to play wing at the top level anymore. May vs Stockdale will be a great one-to-one.

Benches
Evens as it will depend so much on the situation. If it's tight going into the final 25 minutes then England's 6-2 split and the experience of Launchbury and Slade, along with carrying of LCD, Genge and Earl could offer key impacts. I like the 6-2 split but shoehorning a 5th lock into the 23 is silly. I look forward to Genge vs Porter in the second half, two powerful and exciting players. If the England back three is under pressure then the Keith Earls all round game will be useful to bring on and target JJs wing. Cooney is a very good player to come on and tip the scales if England's scrum-halves continue their poor form.

The under 20s are smashing England in England. Good game, england coming back into it.

I suppose the big problem for me is that the England team is just not inspiring. Wonderful individuals. Curry and Underhill, Sinckler, May, Manu and Ford (and of course Itoje) but as a whole it just leaves me feeling flat.

Last year you felt that England were going somewhere. They looked dangerous and there was so much potential. Now? no.

Collapse2005 wrote:The under 20s are smashing England in England. Good game, england coming back into it.

I doubt that will be the case tomorrow though.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The under 20s are smashing England in England. Good game, england coming back into it.

I doubt that will be the case tomorrow though.

Ah but you forget the ref, Mikey......... IRFU didn't.

lostinwales wrote:I suppose the big problem for me is that the England team is just not inspiring. Wonderful individuals. Curry and Underhill, Sinckler, May, Manu and Ford (and of course Itoje)  but as a whole it just leaves me feeling flat.

Last year you felt that England were going somewhere. They looked dangerous and there was so much potential. Now? no.

Bloody hell, lost. They ain't machines. Give them a breather. Next WC is four years away. Getting to full-on World Cup mode/preparedness is a Big Operation. If they kept such momentum going continuously they'd just burn out.

We’ll beat Ireland by enough, but Jones is making it more difficult.

- Lost to a very good South African side and an outstanding performance having convincingly beaten Australia and NZ in knockout rugby
- Lost to a very good French performance whilst blooding new players
- Beat Scotland in an atrocious game

The situation really isn't as bad as some England fans are making out. Particularly with the injury list of Vunipola x 2, Watson, Nowell and Cokanasiga. Also Slade and Manu for the last game.

England need Farrell to impose himself on the game more. When he does they look a completely different outfit. Hopefully we will see more of him against Ireland.

king_carlos wrote:- Lost to a very good South African side and an outstanding performance having convincingly beaten Australia and NZ in knockout rugby
- Lost to a very good French performance whilst blooding new players
- Beat Scotland in an atrocious game

The situation really isn't as bad as some England fans are making out. Particularly with the injury list of Vunipola x 2, Watson, Nowell and Cokanasiga. Also Slade and Manu for the last game.

England need Farrell to impose himself on the game more. When he does they look a completely different outfit. Hopefully we will see more of him against Ireland.

Yeah the backs situation is really driven by injuries and the lack of any legitimate contenders to shake things up in the half backs. Theres maybe more scope for criticism of the forwards but ultimately its only Dombrant people can point to as genuinely missing. Critisizing selecting Manu when hes fit is really a bit limp.

The real key is getting whoever is on the pitch to execute their skills and have some variation to the gameplan that Ireland haven't been shown by SA and France how to counter.

Gooseberry wrote:

king_carlos wrote:- Lost to a very good South African side and an outstanding performance having convincingly beaten Australia and NZ in knockout rugby
- Lost to a very good French performance whilst blooding new players
- Beat Scotland in an atrocious game

The situation really isn't as bad as some England fans are making out. Particularly with the injury list of Vunipola x 2, Watson, Nowell and Cokanasiga. Also Slade and Manu for the last game.

England need Farrell to impose himself on the game more. When he does they look a completely different outfit. Hopefully we will see more of him against Ireland.

Yeah the backs situation is really driven by injuries and the lack of any legitimate contenders to shake things up in the half backs. Theres maybe more scope for criticism of the forwards but ultimately its only Dombrant people can point to as genuinely missing. Critisizing selecting Manu when hes fit is really a bit limp.

The real key is getting whoever is on the pitch to execute their skills and have some variation to the gameplan that Ireland haven't been shown by SA and France how to counter.  

The balance that Watson and Nowell give our backs in particular. Both are very rounded players. Waston is a very strong runner and Nowell adds a different option with his work rate carrying off 9.

I actually think that Earl is the better option at 8 with England's game plan compared to Dombrandt. His defensive work rate and pace around the pitch fits the England defensive structure under Mitchell very well.

As said though 5 locks in a 23 is just unbalanced and I'm no fan of Lawes starting at blindside although England have had success with him there.