Scotland v France Sunday 8th March 2020

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v France
BT Murrayfield Stadium
Edinburgh

Sunday 8th March 2020
KO 15:00

Live on BBC1


Well assuming it goes ahead and it would be very late to cancel it now, The all conquering French team will arrive in Scotland for this weekends fixture.

This match will go a long way to either propelling France towards a Grand Slam (first for a long time) or giving Scotland a half decent season and guaranteeing that Toonie stays in post.

France have looked good without being totally convincing and have looked vulnerable to second half comebacks in all of their games so far. They are playing some fantastic rugby but maybe their fitness is not quite at the level of some of the other sides yet and it is hard to say that they look unbeatable, especially away from home.

Scotland actually have a pretty good record against France at home and even beat them pretty comfortably in the summer despite a very poor start to the game.

This is a different French side though, especially with the new defensive set up and they are less likely to be carrying past baggage. They will be very clinical and will take scoring chances if Scotland give them to them. They should be favourites for this game and for the GS if they win. The question for them is probably are they ready for that kind of pressure this early in their development as a team?

As for Scotland, well a win last time out removes the spectre of whitewashes and wooden spoon and hopefully that can loosen them up a lot for this game. Defensively they have been very hard to break down in this championship and that might frustrate the French as well. There is no doubt though that to win this game, our attack needs to click and without FR and with Huw Jones still not really firing (he did nothing against Leinster that suggested he would be back in the team this week).

I don't expect many changes to the Scotland set up. Of all the players out last weekend, probably only Kyle Steyn put in a convincing case to get himself into the team. He has been playing well all season and has scored some eye catching tries, so maybe it is his turn now.

I am expecting to see a Scotland team something like this:

1. Sutherland
2. McInally
3. Fagerson Z
4. Cummings
5. Toolis
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bradbury
9. Price
10. Hastings
11. Maitland
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Kinghorn
15. Hogg

Subs:

Dell
Brown
Nel/Berghan - maybe Nel to counter the French scrum later in the game
Carmichael - another youngster worthy of a spot, been playing well for Edinburgh
Fagerson/Haining - The carrying of Haining v the defensive excellence of Fagerson (he made 31 tackles against Leinster!), I think he will so with youth
Horne G
Hutchinson
Steyn

Well played Scotland. France simply didn't turn up and then shot themselves in the foot, again, didn't they. Looks like England have won the title though!

Sadly, refs have been very poor all tournament, England and wales were both unlucky v France...

Today's performance has seen Wayne Barnes almost coaching the kiwi ref from the touchline, the tournament's too big to test yourself in, there are ample opportunities to learn outside of the top stage

Well done Scotland, very much helped by the red card though. Scotland can get the win in Cardiff though, probably their best chance in almost a decade.

Not inspired by France and I didn’t really buy into the hype at the start of the tournament either. France vs Ireland is going to be like watching two bald men fighting over a comb, so I’ll probably avoid that one.

Question:


Does anyone actually believe the italy games will be played? Or just draws given? Also the France game next week, will it go ahead?

Given if the 3 games don't... Scotland might end up winning this year's tournament?

Dirtydave wrote:Question:


Does anyone actually believe the italy games will be played? Or just draws given? Also the France game next week, will it go ahead?

Given if the 3 games don't... Scotland might end up winning this year's tournament?

If they cannot play them in June/July I think they will be draws. We might see them pencilled in before the summer tours?

I don't see it, I think the tournament's over for everyone but Scotland wales

guestalt_physicality wrote:

Dirtydave wrote:Question:


Does anyone actually believe the italy games will be played? Or just draws given? Also the France game next week, will it go ahead?

Given if the 3 games don't... Scotland might end up winning this year's tournament?

If they cannot play them in June/July I think they will be draws. We might see them pencilled in before the summer tours?

I can see some real annoyance if they are decided as draws because that will potentially decide the championship and one of the reasons for the postponement instead of playing them behind closed doors is because the Italian Union are standing to lose two sell out games worth of ticket sales. That'd be a blow for them and the local economy as rugby fans can be relied upon to eat and drink plenty whilst causing minimal hassle.

It would be disastrous to call them off, like it was for RWC to cancel games in Japan.

Sadly there's not much that can be done, the virus spread is only going to get worse in the coming months, june/july we could be in a pandemic in the UK, let alone europe

Dirtydave wrote:Sadly there's not much that can be done, the virus spread is only going to get worse in the coming months, june/july we could be in a pandemic in the UK, let alone europe

Can't see them being played to the autumn myself

How does it work if they play outside the window, 6N pays the clubs compensation?

That's a good point, can the club's deny their players? Italy have a fair amount of England and French based players don't they?

Most Italian internationals are playing in Italy nowadays.

I can name 4 or 5 off the top of my head... infact aren't there about 7, and some key players in Polledri and minozzi.

With 16 million people effectively quarantined in Northern Italy and the government advising against travelling there, the game is not going to be played behind closed doors or not. It will therefore be either a later date or a draw, which will be the highest number of points Italy have amassed in years. My bet is a draw, that will give England 15 points with no chance of gaining the other 2 or 3, France 13 plus whatever they get from Ireland, Scotland.10 plus anything they get from Wales, Ireland 11 plus whatever they get against France. The rest are inconsequential.

I cannot see Ireland getting 5 points against France but you never know, possible 16

France are unlikely to get five against Ireland but home advantage is often King and they only need a win, probable 17 points

Scotland max is 15 but I cannot see them beating Wales and certainly not with 4 tries.

I think that it is an issue that two teams get effectively denied three points and in doing so potentially lose the 6N because of it, but I cannot seeing the Committee annulling the previous Italy results which is the logical way of doing it to keep everything fair and reasonable. It would be tantamount to agreeing Italy should not be in the 6N.

Can they not move the game's from Italy to a neutral ground here some where in England?
It will be a great shame if they do not get played because of this virus....how will the winner be decided ? Will France still be the winners on points different?

Amazing amount of hate in Ritchie's direction for a man that was punched in the face. How dare he get involved in handbags - other nations wouldn't dream of that kind of thing!

He seems to be becoming a bit of a pantomime villain with other nations just now and it's about time we finally have a player with a bit of edge who will get in opposition faces. Itoje literally said in his interview yesterday he does this at every opportunity so why can't we have a player like that.

Ritchie should be long term captain, certainly the man to eventually take over Hogg.

Moving italy v england to England is hardly neutral lol

I think part of the issue is revenue, this will hurt Italy. Also, where is going to be safe come April, we'll have thousands of cases in the UK by then surely

Don't think it's hate, just people pointing out that the TMO should have taken a greater look at what he did during the melee (especially as he seemed to be one of the instigators).

Dirtydave wrote:I can name 4 or 5 off the top of my head... infact aren't there about 7, and some key players in Polledri and minozzi.

Polledri and Minozzi will still be in England. Braely is going to be playing in Italy next season. Then there's Ceccarelli who's at Edinburgh currently but I don't if that will be the same next season. Rest are playing in Italy I believe.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done Scotland, very much helped by the red card though. Scotland can get the win in Cardiff though, probably their best chance in almost a decade.

Not inspired by France and I didn’t really buy into the hype at the start of the tournament either. France vs Ireland is going to be like watching two bald men fighting over a comb, so I’ll probably avoid that one.

I think the hype was justified after they started winning games. Today though, they went behind early, couldn't play their game and lost their cool too easily. Once they mature a bit they'll know how to get themselves into a better situation to win when things get tough. Scotland were very much like France were 2 weeks ago, winning a lot of calls and winning the little battles. France reacted terribly being on the other side of those calls and one French player obviously managed to throw a punch and earn himself a red to ruin his teams chances.

Duty281 wrote:Don't think it's hate, just people pointing out that the TMO should have taken a greater look at what he did during the melee (especially as he seemed to be one of the instigators).

Worth saying I wasn't just meaning on here. This is the guy who had horrendous abuse directed at him and his family on social media after the Japan game - as I said he's starting to become a bit of a target for opposition fans who try and pick these things up when they wouldn't for others.

Can only imagine how the likes of Martin Johnson would have been treated in the social media age!

Duty281 wrote:Don't think it's hate, just people pointing out that the TMO should have taken a greater look at what he did during the melee (especially as he seemed to be one of the instigators).

Couple of points here. First how do they know that the TMO did not take a greater look at Ritchie's involvement ? The referee clearly said for him to have a look as Ritchie came from some distance to be involved. Therefore I would think that he did have a good look. Second why say he was one of the instigators. From what I saw it started between one French player and one Scottish player. Then at least another 3 French players started pushing the Scottish player, who was isolated from the rest of the Scotland team. At which time a few Scottish players, including but not only Ritchie, came running in and the wider melee ensued. You see that frequently in Rugby. Saw it yesterday in the Engalnd Wales match.

Calder106 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Don't think it's hate, just people pointing out that the TMO should have taken a greater look at what he did during the melee (especially as he seemed to be one of the instigators).

Couple of points here. First how do they know that the TMO did not take a greater look at Ritchie's involvement ? The referee clearly said for him to have a look as Ritchie came from some distance to be involved. Therefore I would think that he did have a good look. Second why say he was one of the instigators. From what I saw it started between one French player and one Scottish player. Then at least another 3 French players started pushing the Scottish player, who was isolated from the rest of the Scotland team. At which time a few Scottish players, including but not only Ritchie, came running in and the wider melee ensued. You see that frequently in Rugby. Saw it yesterday in the Engalnd Wales match.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - opposition fans pick on certain players and ignore others. Looking at replays Haining was probably more guilty!

We all do the same with Biggar, Sexton, Farrell etc.

Well one Scottish player who deserves a lot of credit today is Grant Gilchrist! His pass to Hogg that setup the first try was a peach for a lock. Don't think anyone expected that. All the benefits of the old fast attacking game plan are beginning to merry up nicely with a better controlled kicking and defensive strategy.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Not inspired by France and I didn’t really buy into the hype at the start of the tournament either. France vs Ireland is going to be like watching two bald men fighting over a comb, so I’ll probably avoid that one.

As long as we end up with the comb, I won't care.

Ritchie is a phenomenal player. Anyone who thinks he’s average or isn’t a long term option for Scotland doesn’t know back row play.

When you watch the whole fracas, the french prop stands up and says something to Haining who stands his ground. The french prop grabs Haining’s shirt, Haining grabs back. Two more french players surround Haining, some Scottish boys run over to back him up. There’s just pushing and shoving till the french prop plants one on Ritchie and then fickou tackles Ritchie to the ground from behind.

My thoughts. About bloody time that Scottish forwards stood their ground and didn’t give an inch. Neither Scottish player did anything wrong but they didn’t back down either. Perfect response from both Haining and Ritchie. They didn’t slump off passively like Jonny Gray but they didn’t start a nonsense like Ryan Wilson.

Ritchie is still getting pelters for his controlled aggression vs Japan. Remember that’s the game where the Japanese players named him their man of the match. They’d not have done that if they thought he was a Mr Winklechops crossing the line.

Ritchie had a great 6ns last year and was the only player to come back from japan with credit.

Future captain

If opposition fans hate Ritchie, then he's doing his job perfectly.

tigertattie wrote:Ritchie is still getting pelters for his controlled aggression vs Japan.  

If that was controlled aggression I wouldn't like to see him lose control.

My son just showed me an interview with the French prop, he claims in it that he did not know that he was not allowed to punch people!

I know he was a bit raw boned and inexperienced but come on!

I wonder if the conference call last week that the coaching staff did with Finn Russell and Johnnie Beattie went something along these lines

'try winding up the new TH prop who is inexperienced and a bit of a hothead, he is liable to lose the plot'

Best excuse ever from the prop!

BigGee wrote:My son just showed me an interview with the French prop, he claims in it that he did not know that he was not allowed to punch people!

I know he was a bit raw boned and inexperienced but come on!

Was he speaking in English or are you able to follow his French? In other words, did he lose himself in translation?

"I am being happy to punch this playere, yes. And of course, I apologise for not doing it more. It was a mistake. I shake hands with this players after, yes."

Soul Requiem wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Ritchie is still getting pelters for his controlled aggression vs Japan.   

If that was controlled aggression I wouldn't like to see him lose control.

Are you for real?

He saw a Scotland player getting up-ended and grabbed the Japanese player by the scruff as a warning that he went too far.

Hardly GBH territory is it.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Ritchie is still getting pelters for his controlled aggression vs Japan.   

If that was controlled aggression I wouldn't like to see him lose control.

Are you for real?

He saw a Scotland player getting up-ended and grabbed the Japanese player by the scruff as a warning that he went too far.

Hardly GBH territory is it.

It wasn't a single incident was it, his general behaviour in that match was petulant to say the least, very lucky not to spend ten minutes off the pitch.

The French are now claiming that Haining gouged the French TH prior to the punch!

This one might run for a bit yet!

I though he grabbed the eye area to be honest.

Not how I saw it, I think Haining made contact with his face, but wasn't a punch and it was lower part of his face.

I could be mistaken, but given the length of time the TMO was reviewing the incident I would have assumed that would have been picked up.

BigGee wrote:The French are now claiming that Haining gouged the French TH prior to the punch!

This one might run for a bit yet!

It seems a bit late in the day to accuse someone of eye gouging leading to the victim punching a different player a minute or two later. Haining and Ritchie look different enough not to get them mixed up

EWT Spoons wrote:Not how I saw it, I think Haining made contact with his face, but wasn't a punch and it was lower part of his face.

I could be mistaken, but given the length of time the TMO was reviewing the incident I would have assumed that would have been picked up.

Nope I was wrong, just seen an image and it does look like Haining may have made contact with the eye area

French did seem quite animated about the ref checking further back in detail.  But no show.  Seems in these free-for-alls that refs are reluctant to go too far into detail lest the entire game has to be rerun before their eyes as one incident leads to another leads to another........

So they look for a prominent piece to concentrate on and use their cards accordingly.  And it's true to an extent that games have to get going again and you would be there all day if players asked you to look at everything that might have initiated a breakout of ball tickling.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

BigGee wrote:The French are now claiming that Haining gouged the French TH prior to the punch!

This one might run for a bit yet!

It seems a bit late in the day to accuse someone of eye gouging leading to the victim punching a different player a minute or two later. Haining and Ritchie look different enough not to get them mixed up

Props don’t identify by looks, they go by number, from the front everyone looks the same to them.

You know, I love it when the Welsh or Irish pundits start using the word "Streetwise" in the same breath as Scottish Rugby. It's been a bloody long time coming, but finally we seem to have a number of players in the form of Watson, Gilchrist and Ritchie who won't take a single step backwards.

Very nice to see.

I’m trying to stay grounded here. This group of players haven’t become world beaters over night. They’ve beaten Italy away and a 14 man French team at home. The French had managed to save up all their usual crazy for our game.
However, it was a very professional performance. It has to be backed up next week. Three wins and two narrow defeats would represent a very good Six Nations. We have to then build from there. Hastings has to kick on and try to wrestle that shirt off Russell even when he is around. Gilchrist and Gray need to add bite to their game permanently.

Im more hopeful now. A win against wales is a big ask but I still think it "should" happen, given how poor wales have been, just like we "should" have beaten Ireland but lacked execution. If we beat Wales for me Toonie has justified backing himself to turn it around after a torrid 18 months and I will be quite happy to be proven wrong. I still think he can improve his coaching, and he was talking about revising playbooks in his post match interview, which worried me. I think he needs to be less prescriptive in attack and just focus on execution, or step back as attack coach and just oversee the overall game plan.

BigGee wrote:The French are now claiming that Haining gouged the French TH prior to the punch!

This one might run for a bit yet!

The French captain was pretty angry at the time and kept asking the ref to review what happened before the punch. He didn't mention gouging at the time but then I don't know how far his English goes.

Any citings from this one?

AWJ wasn't there was he?

There’s a whole bunch of p*ssed off French supporters on social media having a go at the ref and Ritchie. Strangely, not so much at Haining. So this is what it’s like being on the other side.. wow

If you go back to the very start, the French prop who got carded initiated everything by saying something that annoyed Haining. You can see Haining turn around after Haouas says something to him and then the shoving starts.

bsando wrote:There’s a whole bunch of p*ssed off French supporters on social media having a go at the ref and Ritchie. Strangely, not so much at Haining. So this is what it’s like being on the other side.. wow

If you go back to the very start, the French prop who got carded initiated everything by saying something that annoyed Haining. You can see Haining turn around after Haouas says something to him and then the shoving starts.

I think it was a pidgin English version of Swing Low Sweet Chariot.