PGA Tour: The Players: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Well done to Tyrrell Hatton, great win at Bay Hill which continued the run of non-American winners - Day, Leishman, McIlroy, Molinari, Hatton.
This was also an Open Championship qualifier and Keith Mitchell (for the second year running), Danny Lee and Dahmen get to battle the traffic at Royal St.George's in July.

2).For the second week running, the course set-up seemed to make scoring unnecessarily tricky given the prevailing weather conditions. A war of attrition, but not necessarily the most attractive golf for the TV viewer to enjoy.
Hopefully the set-up at TPC Sawgrass will enable the world's best to play their shots.

3).Scott Piercy made news for all the wrong reasons last week and now Tour Commish Monahan has expressed disappointment "in the lack of judgment used" and "that it has been addressed with Scott directly". Good thing Monahan didn't say "he knows better" because Piercy clearly doesn't. But his sponsors do, thankfully, tho' any Tour punishment will be kept unpublished - unless he starts missing tournaments, from which we might draw our own conclusions.
Personally, I'd like to have seen his "invitation" to Bay Hill revoked, but no such disapproval reported from the API.

4).Interesting graph from princedrac's twitter account this week showing the top ten owgr points-getters at The Players:
Four Americans: Woods, DLIII, Furyk, Couples
Three Aussies: Elk, Scott, Shark
Nick Price
Sergio & Langer
A good week, of which there haven't been many recently, will see Garcia can jump from 2nd to 1st, ahead of Tiger.

5).That's reflective of an international honours board with eight of the last twelve winners being "overseas" players.
And first-timers at TPC have a tough time too - after Jerry Pate won on the course's debut in 1982, only Hal Sutton and Craig Perks have won trophy on their first trip. Leading "rookie" last year was Eddie Pepperell who stormed home in 3rd place - but he's busy trying to figure out how you get dq'd three times in less than 2 years.

6).This week looks like the exact halfway point of the pre-Play-Off PGA Tour season, the 23rd event out of a total of 46. About 50 pros have already won enough FedEx Points to assure them a tee-time at the Northern Trust, Round 1 of the FedEx Cup Play-Offs.
Not many are Europeans: McIlroy, Hatton, Rahm, Hovland.

7).And only Fleetwood among other Europeans is comfortably placed, for now.
Those who have struggled this season so far, but are exempt at least through next year, include McDowell (79th), Casey (93rd), Lowry (140th), Molinari (168th), Donald (assuming he takes another earnings exemption - 172nd), Garcia (179th), Willett (181st), Stenson (197th), Wallace (202nd), Rose (205th),
While this lot, all not yet exempt for 2020/21 have it all to do: Straka (82nd), Norlander (84th), Knox (90th), Fitzpatrick (100th), Noren (107th), Rafa C-B (120th), Poulter (128th), Cappelen (130th), Laird (158th), Ventura (175th), Power (201st), Bjerregard (224th), Lewis (227th), plus 3 or 4 others on more tenuous status.

8).But one or two American "faces" are also struggling, with these three less than half-way to a Play-Off goal about 400 pts:
110th: Spieth
111th: D.Johnson
213th: Koepka

9).The Florida "Swing" has a musical chairs of dates next year, starting with Bay Hill, then The Players, followed by "Honda". No word yet on how Valspar fits in, but hopefully retains its fourth slot in Florida.

10).Finally, the Top 64 in the owgr's after The Players will qualify for the WGC-MatchPlay in Austin in a fortnight's time.

Any Valspar Notes will be added here next week.

I would discount anything Woods did in the PED department; and certainly wouldn't want to speculate on anything where official reports are so subjective. Waste of time.
And, even if he did, his body in 10 or 15 years would probably convey the message better than Golf Officialdom ever could.

The only reason I ever got interested in golf was because of the Ryder Cup and Majors.
By those personal, highly subjective criteria, Nicklaus is the best in Majors and hands down better than Woods in Ryder Cup play.

Beyond that lot, again highly personal, Nicklaus is my choice. OK Mac?
And I wouldn't argue if someone prefers, or makes a case for, Woods.

Kwini

Sometimes it is more interesting to hear the arguments for the positions contrary to the ones you think are obviously true. With Nicklaus and Woods I am actually interested in the case for Nicklaus being the GOAT. For the you it seems it is down to the 18 vs 15 majors, but for all the reasons discussed today I just think that is way too simple a metric. As I said earlier I don't even think tiger adding to his major tally changes anything.

McLaren wrote:Kwini

Sometimes it is more interesting to hear the arguments for the positions contrary to the ones you think are obviously true. With Nicklaus and Woods I am actually interested in the case for Nicklaus being the GOAT. For the you it seems it is down to the 18 vs 15 majors, but for all the reasons discussed today I just think that is way too simple a metric. As I said earlier I don't even think tiger adding to his major tally changes anything.

As I said, I also place high value on Ryder Cup performance, and his track record there has been abysmal, just not up to playing as a teammate, only seems to care about himself.
And, not that it affects his standing as g g o a t, he hasn't effectively channelled his undoubted superiority over the past thirty years into grass roots participation in the game by Black Americans - far more (but still not much more than a handful) in earlier generations. Which is a shame.

Kwini... Interesting comments RE Jack... Specifically the RC part. I guess I've always seen the RC as something that can elevate a players career in my eyes (see Sergio), but I've never seen it as something that should detract from one.  (See Tiger).

Jack's RC record doesn't do much for me though... As 5 of the 6 he played we're back in the days of the severely outmanned GBI.  Nor do I think he was a particularly good (or bad) captain. But massive props to Jack for being probably the most key instigator of getting Europe added to the GBI side.

robopz wrote:Kwini... Interesting comments RE Jack... Specifically the RC part. I guess I've always seen the RC as something that can elevate a players career in my eyes (see Sergio), but I've never seen it as something that should detract from one.  (See Tiger).

Jack's RC record doesn't do much for me though... As 5 of the 6 he played we're back in the days of the severely outmanned GBI.  Nor do I think he was a particularly good (or bad) captain. But massive props to Jack for being probably the most key instigator of getting Europe added to the GBI side.

Tony Jacklin revolutionised RC Captaincy, and not just elevating the European team in travel / clothes / accommodation etc.
At MV I bumped into Tommy Horton driving a cart following a match, chatted with him and he said, "One of us is following every (Friday & Saturday) match, no-one realises we're here." Obviously someone must have done, enabled them carts, but thought it was an insight into the sort of captaincy that Seve became famous for.

Yup, Nicklaus didn't have a great playing record but a darn sight better than TDub.

Very true, if you replaced Mickelson and Woods in US Ryder Cup  the USA would probably jave won an awful lot more RC's in the last 20 years. They pretty much guarantee Europe a head start and have shipped an astonishing number of points.
If they keep playing then US audiences will stay high, but they'll continue to lose.

Kwini... Actually I thought Jack had a very good playing record.  16-8-3... It's just that most of it was before the depth increase with the addition of the Euros. Its as a captain his RC performance is questionable. But then again, looking at his 1987 squad, maybe the Americans should have been underdogs even though it was a home game at Jack's home course.

Botox's record even worse than I thought. In the last two Ryder Cups, he has won half a point out of a possible 8. That's absolutely hopeless, and they'll still pick him again and again.
That's the difference between America and Europe, America pick on name, sentiment and who'll boost the ratings rather than on form or suitability for a particular format.
Hopefully they'll pick the equally hopeless Mickelson again when the next match comes around.

Kevin Na is suggesting that Woods has already been earmarked for the 2022 Captain's job in Italy - which means Phil will be 54 before he can be considered.
And they seem to be grooming Zach Johnson for a turn also.

Woods as Captain seems an hilariously bad decision for America. Perhaps the worst US player in Ryder Cup history being Captain of a team in a competition when he can't be bothered to buy into the team ethic.

US decision makers are bloody crazy. It will be popular with TV audience (which is why they would be doing it), but can't see how a man with so little between the ears could engineer an away victory. (cue the tiresome GPB chiming in with how great he was as a Presidents Cup captain)

Did I just hear that the US is announcing a relaxation of quarantine rules - for sports men and women only? (Which makes no sense, every special interest will be given preferential treatment, probably including Dominic Cummings.)

Given the way that BoJo seems to be trying to please everyone on such matters (except the British), perhaps he'll be seeking a reciprocal deal? That might encourage the likes of Fleetwood, Molinari & Westwood to head west after all.

Kwini

I guess we will be unlikely to agree on the importance of the RC at this point. Needles to say Rorys views on it were an early indication of his genius.

Did you watch much of Jack back in his prime?

Only saw Nicklaus play twice, once at Oak Hill when he won the PGA (and made the first hole-in-one I'd ever seen in person) and for a few holes at a Senior Open at Salem.

What's this with you and The Needles, Mac, have you been testing out proximity apps on the IOW?

(PS: Couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of the RC, to me it's the sport of golf at the absolute highest level, regardless of Rory's opinion.)

Rory famously retracted his initial views on the Ryder Cup the moment he played in it.
He's prone to a gaffe, which is great because so many golfers are too scared to give an opinion, even if it means he has to modify it later along the line. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, much better than being an insipid bore like so many golfers.

What's In The Bag?
Not Honma clubs for Justin Rose who has slipped (plummetted?) out of the owgr Top Ten.
Thought it was a strange partnership when it started, now wonder where he'll be going next.

kwinigolfer wrote:Did I just hear that the US is announcing a relaxation of quarantine rules - for sports men and women only? (Which makes no sense, every special interest will be given preferential treatment, probably including Dominic Cummings.)

Given the way that BoJo seems to be trying to please everyone on such matters (except the British), perhaps he'll be seeking a reciprocal deal? That might encourage the likes of Fleetwood, Molinari & Westwood to head west after all.

Correct.... it seems pretty clear last week the Tour knew this was coming... Still doesn't solve the potential quarantine when international players go home though... Or countries like Canada that are prohibiting their citizens to exit...

(I thought I) heard this on NPR then couldn't find any corroboration before the dreaded drink closed my eyes . . . . . . .

The return trip will now be the issue - but it does seem a bit inconsistent with what we're being instructed to do. I can't even travel 50 miles north, still less make the return trip.

kwinigolfer wrote:

What's this with you and The Needles, Mac, have you been testing out proximity apps on the IOW?

Sorry if it came off that way. I was genuinely just interested in the case for Jack being the GOAT.


What was it like follow Jack, was he mobbed like the current popular players or did you get The decent view of what was going on?

McLaren wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:

What's this with you and The Needles, Mac, have you been testing out proximity apps on the IOW?

Sorry if it came off that way. I was genuinely just interested in the case for Jack being the GOAT.


What was it like follow Jack, was he mobbed like the current popular players or did you get The decent view of what was going on?

Americans behaved a bit more like human beings back then Mac.

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:

What's this with you and The Needles, Mac, have you been testing out proximity apps on the IOW?

Sorry if it came off that way. I was genuinely just interested in the case for Jack being the GOAT.


What was it like follow Jack, was he mobbed like the current popular players or did you get The decent view of what was going on?

Americans behaved a bit more like human beings back then Mac.

Just like following any famous player, but certainly not like the rabid mob that accompanies TW. Plus Nicklaus always seemed to be enjoying himself. At least, the two times I saw him. (Crowds at Salem were not huge either.)

Kwini

Did you watch the match last night?

Much better production value than the Rors match.

JT really good on commentary, although I hope he doesn't have to enter the booth for a while yet. Very likable chap.

Tiger still hates Phil. The should I mark it with the US open medal was probably going a bit far.

Too bad about the weather. Not sure I like the cart driving either.

McLaren wrote:Kwini

Did you watch the match last night?

Much better production value than the Rors match.

JT really good on commentary, although I hope he doesn't have to enter the booth for a while yet. Very likable chap.

Tiger still hates Phil. The should I mark it with the US open medal was probably going a bit far.

Watched a little, Mac. Didn't hear much of the commentary but my resident expert said, yup, that JT was excellent. When he was starting out, I thought he was just another entitled brat coming out of college with more sponsor exemptions than form.
But thought he was terrific for the US in Paris (both times) and now like him a lot.

Can't stand all the bullsh1t faux bonhomie that US media seems to lap up - would much rather blokes just called each other exactly what they thought of them, an effing whatever.

JT just had that nice thing some people have where they convey their knowledge without sounding like a blow hard or know it all. Phil telling his duffer how to putt was so patronising.

Not sure Woods thoughts on Mickelson are suitable for broadcast.

I'd still rather go for a pint with Mickelson than Botox.

Botix drinks Gatorade anyway.

After the feeble broadcast effort in Match 1 last year, and the lameness of the broadcast & missed opportunities last week in the Rory match (even thought I still mostly enjoyed it)... I wasn't expecting much out of yesterday's effort.

But WOW was I pleasantly surprised.  Really, really good show. If I wanted to pull out some areas that maybe could have been improved, I guess I could. But I don't want to. I'll just leave it with it came off way better than I expected and it was extremely enjoyable. I give massive props to everyone involved... Players, announcers, (JT, who knew?) TNT concept and production... Home Run after Home Run....

if I saw anything in this I think could be applied to regular tour broadcasts... It's audio, audio & MORE AUDIO. You can't do a lot of the banter & things they did in this in the midst of a real tournament... But you can Mic way more players to give us more of that interaction between players and caddies and even players to players. (And the announcers could also learn to shut up more & not talk over it so we can actually hear it). They've got the tech... Just get it done..

There was a tennis commentator who was brevity personified- Dan Maskell. If he said more than two years words in a rally he was being verbose A lot of modern day commentators could learn from him. Too many just describe what' we're seeing. Ok for radio, not for TV.

I'm never wrong wrote:There was a tennis commentator who was brevity personified- Dan Maskell. If he said more than two years words in a rally he was being verbose  A lot of modern day commentators could learn from him. Too many just describe what' we're seeing. Ok for radio, not for TV.

Usually it was to say, "That was a dream of a shot".

Henry Longhurst was also the master of the extended silence.

Most American commentators are absolutely terrible, just state the obvious with no personality or humour at all.

The exaggerated excitement bothers me the most. “Oh my!” and “WOW!” are the worst.

pedro wrote:The exaggerated excitement bothers me the most. “Oh my!” and “WOW!” are the worst.

Wow is even worse when prefixed by "just"

Another thing absolutely terrible about US coverage is that they show  so many shots out of out of order and they only tend to concentrate on top 3 players, unless Botox is dead last then they'll show him of course. They also tend to focus on Yanks only, even if a non Yank is playing well.

Super

Another way to phrase your last point would be to say they broadcast what their audience wants to see.


Robo

Agreed. It was decent to watch and if there was anyone I would want to go for a pint with after watching it, it would be JT.

Mac - Bingo

If more shots of Tiger Woods warming up at the expense of any action going on at that time gets better ratings, the choice for the director is easy.

If, however, enough people get disgusted by that and turn away from the broadcast, there are plenty of other networks/entities that would love some of that action and would redirect accordingly.

Money talks, opinions walk. (But we've been over this before ...)

McLaren wrote:Super

Another way to phrase your last point would be to say they broadcast what their audience wants to see.


Robo

Agreed. It was decent to watch and if there was anyone I would want to go for a pint with after watching it, it would be JT.

Do they? Why do so many people complain about it then?

They don't. This boards lack of fascination with Tiger is an anomaly among golf fans.

I'm never wrong wrote:There was a tennis commentator who was brevity personified- Dan Maskell. If he said more than two years words in a rally he was being verbose  A lot of modern day commentators could learn from him. Too many just describe what' we're seeing. Ok for radio, not for TV.

I agree with that. Frank Chirkinian would be rolling over in his grave.  Announcers need to set the stage, give us context, and maybe fill us in on what we can't see... But let the action speak for itself.

Shotrock wrote:Mac - Bingo

If more shots of Tiger Woods warming up at the expense of any action going on at that time gets better ratings, the choice for the director is easy.

If, however, enough people get disgusted by that and turn away from the broadcast, there are plenty of other networks/entities that would love some of that action and would redirect accordingly.

Money talks, opinions walk. (But we've been over this before ...)

They DO broadcast what the greater audience wants to see, and as long as that's Tiger warming up, tying his shoes or picking his nose, that's what they're going to show. It's always been that way, it always will. And no it's not different in Europe or on SKY or any other broadcaster.

No doubt this story will make some headlines.

I'm a Sergio fan, but difficult to think that Jacklin doesn't have a point (tho' I reckon "double-digit Majors" is a bit strong):

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/tony-jacklin-calls-sergio-garcia-biggest-underachiever-golf

The point about excelling in a team format but not so much as an individual is, I would think, a comment that could also be levelled at Montgomerie & Westwood.

Not to harp on the bleedin' obvious, but the opposite could be said of certain Americans.

Players are responding enthusiastically to the PGA Tour restart... Assuming those 1st 4 events actually get played and currently entered players stay entered, they could have record fields.

As of now...

• Charles Schwab Challenge (Colonial) is trending to about a 70 level field strength

• RBC Heritage is trending to a 70-72

• Travelers Championship is trending to a 66-68

For reference the Genesis Open and WGC Mexico earlier this year came in at 70 and the Arnold Palmer Invitational was a 66.

kwinigolfer wrote:No doubt this story will make some headlines.

I'm a Sergio fan, but difficult to think that Jacklin doesn't have a point (tho' I reckon "double-digit Majors" is a bit strong):

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/tony-jacklin-calls-sergio-garcia-biggest-underachiever-golf

The point about excelling in a team format but not so much as an individual is, I would think, a comment that could also be levelled at Montgomerie & Westwood.

Not to harp on the bleedin' obvious, but the opposite could be said of certain Americans.

- - - -

Don't know what to make of Jacklin's comments. I guess I usually have more trouble than some hanging the "underachiever" tag of guys because "what do we really know"? And I say the same for Jacklin's opinion. If careers were all about "ball striking" alone... then why didn't Weiskopf win 50 with 8 majors, or Johnny Miller win 5-6 majors? Easy answer... because in MOST cases, it's simply other parts of their game, they don't have the head for it or "life" gets in the way. Doesn't make most of them underachievers.

Besides, just from past observation... seems to me for all the supposed underachievers to do what people think they should have, we would have needed an annual schedule of about 100 PGA Tour events including a dozen majors.

Bottom line... I strongly believe if a guy like Sergio really was good enough to have won double or triple his total with double digit majors... HE WOULD HAVE. IMO he just wasn't as good as we all thought he was.

As for the team thing... I never read too much into that either way. Some people play better individual, some play team... but roughly 1 out of 104 weeks for Top Euros are "cups"... 2 out of 104 weeks for Americans are Cups. That's 2-5% of events these guys play depending on which side of the pond. If some are able to get up for them and excel at them, GREAT, but if not.. so what? I've always thought great CUP play can enhance careers, but mediocre to poor CUP play doesn't hurt them. Sergio, Poulter... 2 guys with enhanced reputations because of their RC's... Tiger, Phil... don't see either diminished one bit by their's.

McLaren wrote:They don't. This boards lack of fascination with Tiger is an anomaly among golf fans.

Please explain what is so fascinating Mac.

What's "bleedin' obvious" to me is that, sure, Sergio is one of the best ball strikers on the planet. World class in that respect.

He's also world class at being petulant, moody, playing the victim and - even with that world class swing of his -- making some whopper mental errors. A peabrain, if you will. Always along for the ride.

Jacklin's spot on.

Only area where I could dispute Jacklin, and robo re Weiskopf & Miller, is whether Sergio was ever a good & consistent enough putter to earn more than 4 or 5 Majors. But Harrington broke his heart (or Sergio fell on his putter) at Carnoustie and we'll never really know. Too bad, though sure our Eagle Bay correspondent would say "Good riddance"!

Super

I can't speak for other people but for me the fascination (or desire to watch him play) was mostly about how good he was and how exciting it could be to see him put a round together. Whether that be a birdie fest or scrambling to stay in the tournament. He reached a level of golf that I have not seen anyone else get close to.

But for whatever reasons people love to watch Tiger. Even now he can bring in viewers that otherwise wouldn't be there.

Sergio has 10 PGAT wins, 16 ET wins and a major. Feels about right for me. He clearly never had had the temperament to be a multiple major winner. From very early on Tida (Tigers mum) referred to him as crybaby.

I seem to recall peabrain complained he didn't get the breaks that Harrington did during that Open Championship. Spare me.

At least he didn't tomahawk the greens as he's done of late.

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:They don't. This boards lack of fascination with Tiger is an anomaly among golf fans.

Please explain what is so fascinating Mac.

Most people regarding him as the best player that has ever lived perhaps?

robopz wrote:

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:They don't. This boards lack of fascination with Tiger is an anomaly among golf fans.

Please explain what is so fascinating Mac.

Most people regarding him as the best player that has ever lived perhaps?

Doesn't mean he's interesting to watch or fascinating though. Sampras was a top notch tennis player but wasn't good to watch.

kwinigolfer wrote:Only area where I could dispute Jacklin, and robo re Weiskopf & Miller, is whether Sergio was ever a good & consistent enough putter to earn more than 4 or 5 Majors. But Harrington broke his heart (or Sergio fell on his putter) at Carnoustie and we'll never really know. Too bad, though sure our Eagle Bay correspondent would say "Good riddance"!

My whole point was I don't think Sergio was/is good enough to have done significantly more than he's achieved. Being a great ball striker doesn't guarantee wins, it takes way more than that.  IMO Sergio achieved about what he should have with his overall skills. 

But it's always interesting what a fine line it is... if you gave me about a dozen shots to spread around Sergio's career in just the right places... I could probably create the resume of a first ballot Hall of Famer pretty quick.  (And I could probably get Phil into consensus all-time top 5-7 status doing the same...:-)