Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I suppose it sort of makes sense with the Dyson effort because they just have to switch to blow.
Hope it works.
The self employed will have to adjust in future and get a bit closer to the NI and paye system.It has always been a bit unwritten that you can limit your contributions somewhat as self employed in the building trade and others but a big part of the economy. Again this may close a few gaps

[beninho]

When I first heard Ed Sheeran, I thought it was a novelty joke, but he was deadly serious. Dreadful music, but clearly aimed at the under 20 demographic, so not surprising I don't like it.

Target Audience shouldn't matter.

Shape of you is a good pop song. As is shotgun by George ezra. Liked by me and my son.

[Soul Requiem]

Music is subjective. But, I also think being a music fan shouldn't pigeon hole you in to certain types. And, while some mega acts are not to everyone's taste it's hard to just dismiss all songs because an act us huge. Coldplay have some good songs, some dull ones and lots of meh.  I'm not big on Jazz, but can accept the musical talent.

My metal days were very much in the 90s, I think the heaviest I brought was Slayer or Machinehead. Still ask Akexa for the odd Pantera song though, and definitely still love Rage against the Machine.  Though I think Nirvana were my first love in music.

It's subjective what you like but talent less so. Ed Sheeran is hugely popular but his music could barely be more basic and for me that's a big problem.

[beninho]

Music is subjective. But, I also think being a music fan shouldn't pigeon hole you in to certain types. And, while some mega acts are not to everyone's taste it's hard to just dismiss all songs because an act us huge. Coldplay have some good songs, some dull ones and lots of meh.  I'm not big on Jazz, but can accept the musical talent.

My metal days were very much in the 90s, I think the heaviest I brought was Slayer or Machinehead. Still ask Akexa for the odd Pantera song though, and definitely still love Rage against the Machine.  Though I think Nirvana were my first love in music.

It's subjective what you like but talent less so. Ed Sheeran is hugely popular but his music could barely be more basic and for me that's a big problem.

It's just pop music, it's not something I would class as basic. But again everyone has there own opinion. It's not right or wrong. It's not a london Philharmonic but its probably easier to listen to.

[super_realist]

Absolutely, I don't think anyone should only listen to just one type of music and it's almost impossible to like everything done by your favourite band. They've all done some terrible songs.

I've always been fond of New Order, but I'm the first to admit that Bernie Sumner is atrocious when it comes to lyrics, some of the worst around.

I wouldn't say I pigeonhole myself, I just know what I like and what I don't, and unless they significantly change direction I'll never like Elton John, Ed Sheeran, Mumford and Sons, Muse, James Blunt, Billie Eilish etc.

Alexa and YouTube are always good ways to find new stuff though, and sometimes it can surprise you.

[super_realist]

When I first heard Ed Sheeran, I thought it was a novelty joke, but he was deadly serious. Dreadful music, but clearly aimed at the under 20 demographic, so not surprising I don't like it.

Target Audience shouldn't matter.

Shape of you is a good pop song. As is shotgun by George ezra. Liked by me and my son.

Shape of You is the only Ed Sheeran song I'm aware of hearing, and it's about as annoying as Crazy Frog. It's an absolutely horrendous song. My Alexa which is hard of hearing often puts it on when I request a particular playlist. She's lucky to still be alive. Just a ghastly, bland, dreary, paint by numbers song with no redeemable features as far as I can tell. There is so much good music in the world, and people choose to listen to absolute excrement like that. Mind you, given what I've seen in this lockdown, not surprising.

[beninho]

On twitter, Tim Burgess of the Charlatans, has a twitter listening party. When at a certain time everyone plays the album of choice, and the group and others involved tweet along with pictures and explanations of some songs.

The drummer and woman from New Order did power corruption candies the other day. And Ash did 1977, a real album from my youth. User to love Ash.

[beninho]

On twitter, Tim Burgess of the Charlatans, has a twitter listening party. When at a certain time everyone plays the album of choice, and the group and others involved tweet along with pictures and explanations of some songs.

The drummer and woman from New Order did power corruption candies the other day. And Ash did 1977, a real album from my youth. User to love Ash.

[super_realist]

When I first heard Ed Sheeran, I thought it was a novelty joke, but he was deadly serious. Dreadful music, but clearly aimed at the under 20 demographic, so not surprising I don't like it.

Target Audience shouldn't matter.

Shape of you is a good pop song. As is shotgun by George ezra. Liked by me and my son.

Target audience obviously does matter. If something is designed to appeal to a certain demographic its more likely to be liked by them.
Radio 1, CBBC, One Direction, Hollyoaks, Russel Brand (Bell end) Russell Kane etc are very much aimed at much younger people and it shows

Older people tend not to like them because they are usually in possession of more sophisticated tastes and have been through the stage of those type of things and have grown out of them.

[beninho]

If it wasn't for cbbc I I wouldn't have seen Horrible Histories. Better then a lot of comedy shows aimed at older people!

[dynamark]

Saw Elton NEC way way back it was a good show .
Best live I have ever been to is George Benson jazz guitar what a musician my go to you tube at present . Giving YT a bit of use evenings at present .
I have an old friend who had a one off hit many years ago and he still gets a PRS cheque every month or two.

[navyblueshorts]

Still waiting on why the original candle in the wind is so embarrassing. Unsure why you have such a problem with it.

I'm sure you've mentioned before that you don't like the Beatles either? Are you one of those people who say they don't like big acts to look cool.

Do you like, Coldplay? Rolling stones? Ed Sheeran? George Michael?  Oasis? Blur?

Out of those mentioned I like the Beatles and the Stones for instance, can take or leave Oasis and Blur. Coldplay, Sheeran and George Michael are dire though as is most popular music where image is almost more important than actual talent. I wouldn't for instance think anything of you not liking a black metal band like Bathory, incredibly talented musicians but i'm fully aware are to very few peoples taste.

\m/

[Soul Requiem]

Still waiting on why the original candle in the wind is so embarrassing. Unsure why you have such a problem with it.

I'm sure you've mentioned before that you don't like the Beatles either? Are you one of those people who say they don't like big acts to look cool.

Do you like, Coldplay? Rolling stones? Ed Sheeran? George Michael?  Oasis? Blur?

Out of those mentioned I like the Beatles and the Stones for instance, can take or leave Oasis and Blur. Coldplay, Sheeran and George Michael are dire though as is most popular music where image is almost more important than actual talent. I wouldn't for instance think anything of you not liking a black metal band like Bathory, incredibly talented musicians but i'm fully aware are to very few peoples taste.

\m/

?????

[kwinigolfer]

Saw Elton NEC way way back it was a good show .
Best live I have ever been to is George Benson jazz guitar what a musician my go to you tube at present . Giving YT a bit of use evenings at present .
I have an old friend who had a one off hit many years ago and he still gets a PRS cheque every month or two.

dyna,
George Benson had some wonderful albums.
I'm going back a long way (as I do), but the first Newport Jazz Festival at Saratoga concluded into the wee hours with Benson leading a jam of On Broadway with Herbie Hancock, Sonny Rollins, Dizzy Gillespie, Jean-Luc Ponty, Dee Dee Bridgewater and others who would top most bills. Lasted about 45 minutes, never to be forgotten. Saw him later at Wembley and not quite the same.

[JAS]

Must admit, I don’t look for a huge amount of sophistication in the music I like, I like what I like. I was 14 in 1977 so the whole punk thing met my teenage rebellious angst perfectly. Even though I might have long since grown up (in some ways) some of that late 70s punk is still my go to when I want to give my ear drums a work out. The Clash, the Stranglers, the Pistols, the damned, the ruts, the skids, SLF. My taste has expanded & mellowed a bit over the years, Springsteen to me is brilliant and probably the best live performer ever in my eyes. I don’t mind Sheeran, my partner & son went to see him 2-3 ago, I could’ve gone but couldn’t be bothered, his stuff is ok I wouldn’t turn the radio off if he came on but it wouldn’t pay for a gig ticket to see him.
Never really got into metal although the more commercial soft rock will get me up on the dance floor at weddings & stuff (ie. Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams, AC/DC etc) Can’t stand dance music, hip hop and Teeny pop gash like No direction or little Mix and all that gash.

[I'm never wrong]

\m/
?????

Soul, it's the way of writing affirmative for metal fans. I suppose it's like when they put the first and little fingers up (and all the rest down) in a "salute".

[Soul Requiem]

\m/
?????

Soul, it's the way of writing affirmative for metal fans. I suppose it's like when they put the first and little fingers up (and all the rest down) in a "salute".

I feel really old for not realising that represented the devil horn salute.

[navyblueshorts]

Still waiting on why the original candle in the wind is so embarrassing. Unsure why you have such a problem with it.

I'm sure you've mentioned before that you don't like the Beatles either? Are you one of those people who say they don't like big acts to look cool.

Do you like, Coldplay? Rolling stones? Ed Sheeran? George Michael?  Oasis? Blur?

Out of those mentioned I like the Beatles and the Stones for instance, can take or leave Oasis and Blur. Coldplay, Sheeran and George Michael are dire though as is most popular music where image is almost more important than actual talent. I wouldn't for instance think anything of you not liking a black metal band like Bathory, incredibly talented musicians but i'm fully aware are to very few peoples taste.

\m/

?????

You know the 'Dio horns' hand gesture?

[westisbest]

I don’t have one type of music that I listen to. Like certain pop, rock, dance, reggae. Depends what mood I’m in.

Have always been a big Springsteen fan. Would love to go to one of his concerts.

[I'm never wrong]

Have always been a big Springsteen fan. Would love to go to one of his concerts.

If you ever get the chance, go. Goes on for hours. I've seen several and his effort is phenomenal.

[Be_the_ball]

Do you think there might be a case for bringing manufacturing back to western countries? After this crisis, I think consumers may be likely to spend a little more for products that are made closer to home.

[navyblueshorts]

Do you think there might be a case for bringing manufacturing back to western countries? After this crisis, I think consumers may be likely to spend a little more for products that are made closer to home.

Yes, but there needs to be an honest conversation about what that probably means for the prices of goods that were recently being made in Asia. The 'global market' has been shown up as having some serious flaws!

[Be_the_ball]

Do you think there might be a case for bringing manufacturing back to western countries? After this crisis, I think consumers may be likely to spend a little more for products that are made closer to home.

Yes, but there needs to be an honest conversation about what that probably means for the prices of goods that were recently being made in Asia. The 'global market' has been shown up as having some serious flaws!

Very true, I don't think it is a stretch to describe this as a wake up call. I think Consumers will support it, and get used to the cost difference. Plus bringing some of those jobs back should bring wealth back to the local economy. Consumers have the power to drive it.

[super_realist]

Depends what it is. I think we buy a lot of stuff from China without realising it has been made there, even if it has a European owner, or on the other hands we might have European made goods, that are owned by the Chinese, e.g Volvo.

[Be_the_ball]

Yes, there needs to be joined up thinking and an agreed approach. But I can't see things going back to how they were beforehand. Currently it's a short term gain, but ultimately it undermines the economy of the consumers. It can't be all out protectionism either as that will be counterproductive, so an agreed approach is needed. Wall street will have to adhere to it if consumers demand it. I can see something changing.

[super_realist]

Mac will accuse of of being racist.

[Pal Joey]

Good discussions guys. I've been talking a lot about the same things with various people here these last few weeks... and decades.  

Japan has already announced they are going to shut off a lot of those imported products and make a lot more things themselves again. Here in Australia, on 29 March, the Government quickly reduced the FIRB (foreign investment review board) threshold from $1.2 billion to zero to eliminate predatory acquisitions of business and properties. So any new proposals will now need to go through far more scrutiny regarding 'benefit for the national interest' first and foremost. I hope you guys do build your 5G network yourselves. And HS2 with major offshoots to both coasts as well.

We - the Commonwealth of Nations / Five Eyes - need to look after ourselves first and get our productivity and manufacturing capabilities much better organised than they were before this thing hit - and start to adopt (or appropriate) an East Asian mindset. This might cause some whinging at first but once people wake up to the fact that we've been screwed economically already and perhaps been a little too complacent since the 70s say - I'm sure they'll agree that there is plenty of scope for improvement. It won't hurt that much and it needs to be done.

We (combined) have plenty of resources and intellectual property at hand; always have. Rather than 'give it away' or sell off cheaply as we have these past few decades; now is the most opportune time to take stock and concentrate on retaining and controlling the essential resources industries first. Times like these are when breakthroughs are made.. new inventions and methods.. and leaps of progress for the benefit of us all. Perhaps it will require downward pressure on wages, reduced or more flexible hours... so what? The overall playing field is now different. It's a different ball game.

May I suggest we look forward to these hard times ahead if possible and not worry (too much) about previous norms and benchmarks we have experienced up until now. It's a clean slate now and we've really been privileged and had it good in so many ways. Not calling for austerity - but a more beneficial reorganisation of our lives.

Don't forget: Japanese products were laughed at in the 50s... China's were too pretty much up until 2005-2010 approx. (now how many fold rubbish GDP increase since then? About 3-5 fold? ffs!) We know how to make steel products, specialised equipment, processed food... whatever. So let's start again with small steps keeping in mind the purpose 'wartime in peacetime' mentality. These goods will be better again than what has been achieved in the last 20 years or so, It can be done. It's already underway on an emergency scale. We need to keep going.  I've a lot of faith in people - there's so many good deeds being done right now. Nothing like a decent greater challenge to keep us happy and well occupied, yeah?

[navyblueshorts]

A problem for the U.K., I think. We've sold off all the family jewels such as steel, ship building etc etc....

[super_realist]

Not that we've sold them off, just that they can't compete.
South Korea is the epicentre of ship building these days.
I'd rather not make stuff just for the sake of it, would you want a car made to British Leyland standards? I wouldn't.

[Pal Joey]

Yes, the same here too, navy. The guts ripped right out of our heavy manufacturing. I remember well when the talk was of "mini mills"... shortly thereafter. Assembly was then spread out which then led to some issues of co-ordination and quality control. Then most of that went too not long after.

Just saying we do need to re-tool our countries again. Get the ball rolling. Plan, manufacture and refine the goods produced. Plenty of available land here to set up shop. Many in industry are talking about this again now too... and those who kept saying "it won't work... it can't be done... it's too expensive..." have suddenly gone quiet now.

Not suggesting a re-run of the post war production line scenario. Obviously a lot of water has passed under the bridge now. Times are different.
To me it's a great opportunity. What are the alternatives? Go back to what we've just had again once the virus settles down or goes away?

[JAS]

Aw shucks, this kind of debate is right up my street and I’m busy as hell today with work. I’ll be brief :-p

This crisis has certainly helped us to see the flaws with neoliberal economics, the vehicle for the global elite to basically plunder the world, have free reign to exploit cheap labour and stash their ill gotten gains away in tax havens.

Can it change? Yes!! Will it change? Highly unlikely.

In terms of Capital and Labour, capital has had the whip hand for about 4 decades, the only time in history Labour (I don’t mean the party) had it was in the 3 decades immediately post war (to the middle/end of the 70s. Since then, Labour has been globalised, organised labour has been broken and neutered, debt has been introduced to keep the masses neutered, wages have stagnated for many for over a decade and in many cases much longer.
How is it sustainable to depress wages for decades yet have prices for goods continue to rise (to fuel company profits), people then have to go into increasing levels of debt to sustain a standard of living or they don’t so goods and services don’t get bought so company profits drop. There is a balance that needs to be struck in that equation but what has happened in the era since Thatcher/Reagan is that people have been convinced of the flawed logic of trickle down economics. Way before now they should have realised that wealth does NOT trickle down. The dam of corporate greed is watertight and wealth stays where it is or it trickles across to secret stashes in places Like Panama & the Cayman Islands.

So... Capital has now heavily screwed up twice. They got off scot free with the first one, they’ll do their damndest to blame this screw up on everything from communism to fake news and use it to spread fear uncertainty and doubt among the general population.

So... whilst it should change and we should take a step back from allowing big global companies to exploit people and resources, what will actually happen is that the silent majority will just end up being grateful that they’re still here and shy away from rocking the boat.

Somebody with a similar narrative and ideas tried to sell that narrative back in Nov/early December and was widely considered an abject fool and ridiculed mercilessly for daring to question the  continued legitimacy of Neoliberalism. I don’t think even a virus pandemic is going to change that. We’re doomed I tell thee, we’re doomed, we’re heading back to the economics of the 19th century and most people have sleepwalked into acceptance and will wake up too late.

[super_realist]

Fuel and so many things in real terms has gone down JAS. A far lower % of our incomes are spent on fuel than they were in the past. Same as food prices whilst other things like consumer goods like tv's, computers etc are all significantly cheaper. Life is far better now in pretty much every respect.

Everything wasn't always better in the old days. I'm bloody glad we don't have terrible industries like coal anymore. Who wants to be sent down a mine?
Life is far better now than it was in the 1970's even with this bloody virus I'd still prefer to be around now than during a three day week, tripping over a months worth of rubbish and dead bodies whilst dodging picket lines and having to buy terrible products made by Brummies who don't give a toss about quality.

You can crow about capitalism "failing" all you like but there is no viable alternative which allows us to live the life we have become accustomed to and which fuels progeession.

I have no idea why people look back to the past and claim things were great when they were demonstrably awful. Very few people owned property, people still had outdoor toilets, no central heating etc. The 60's and 70's were awful times, thank goodness they are no longer with us.

As for capitalism failing, how do you work that out? How has Coronavirus caused capitalism to fail? What system is doing well in the current climate? None, so it's not that any system has failed, its that Coronavirus has put a strain on every economic model. What system would you rather live under I wonder?

You are a capitalist, so why are you so keen on running it down?

[kwinigolfer]

Agree with just about every word, JAS.

Buy local, your neighbourhood, your town, your county, your country, your economic & environmental ethos, and we could become self-sufficient again. In 60 years. Meanwhile China has bought most of Africa's mineral wealth, trying hard to do the same in S.America, buying up chunks of companies everywhere, torching the earth, denying basic human rights.
And the "West" doesn't give a monkey's. Certainly not the US and probably not GB&NI.

Meanwhile, I see the gov't can't manage supply chains from Turkey, let alone anywhere else in the world. Bunch of rookies.


PS: My experiences of the 60's & 70's was pretty good. Where did you go wrong supes?
Just teasing, sort of, but there's a happy(?) medium which is worth trying for.

[super_realist]

Supply of PPE is a global problem. Next.

[kwinigolfer]

Supply of PPE is a global problem. Next.

Only for some parts of the globe.
And only for some States in the US.

[super_realist]

Supply of PPE is a global problem. Next.

Only for some parts of the globe.
And only for some States in the US.

So why only blame the UK government?

[kwinigolfer]

I'm not only blaming the UK government, try to include the US in any criticism - but neither country has been out in front of this from the start.
And that is partly due to the culture of their respective leaderships. Fortunately States apparently have much more autonomy than local NHS units, so some have seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

[super_realist]

No they haven't, but 99% of countries and even the WHO have been terrible in their response, so what's the point in making a point when the horse has already bolted?
WHO for instance have been bloody awful and even back in January were saying that Coronavirus can't be transmitted from human to human  so I'm not sure why any government would have suddenly jumped into a state of preparedness.

Furthermore any countries stats are mostly affected by the behaviour of its citizens and how responsibly they react to measures and when you look at Cheltenham and football games then you have to blame more than just the government.

Even countries which were considered to be doing well like Singapore are now really struggling.

[kwinigolfer]

"Countries' stats are mostly affected by the behaviour of its citizens" - and those citizens elected Johnson just as surely as they elected (sort of) Drumpf.

[super_realist]

Yeah, all those Liverpool fans who went to Milan are all Boris voters aren't they?
Don't be so naive to think that the stats would be any better in these countries with different leaders. Think back to the start of this and what data was available and what conflicting information was coming out.
Britain wouldn't suddenly have been a place less likely to spread the virus just because Corbyn and Flabbot were in charge, ditto if it was still Obama or some non Republican.

[Soul Requiem]

We don't really know how any country is actually doing at the moment, once the dust has settled we'll be able to assess things a bit better. For instance 84% of current deaths in the UK relating to coronavirus are happening in hospitals compared to about 55% for both Spain and Italy; the numbers just aren't openly available at the moment. Germany are releasing very little data aside from infections and hospital deaths.

How are current measures going to affect any potential second, third or fourth waves for instance? Then there's the mental strain of lockdown, the lack of physical activity, social mobility and a host of other factors to consider, it might be quite callous to say but this goes far beyond just saying x amount have died. It's very easy to look back now and say the government should have followed the advice of Neil Ferguson but do we honestly think he was the only person advising them at that point?

[super_realist]

Exactly, there was so much conflicting information around at the time that it was impossible to pick a solution that would lead to the most minimal impact.
It's easy to blame a government after the fact, but let's remember that none of us had a clue how this was going to play out either.
I'd bet not a single one of us would have thought it would ever be anything like as serious as it has become, so why expect a government to have some sort of clairvoyance? Spain, France, Italy and Belgium all struggled too, but are you blaming the type of government they have for their response, or is it only because you deem it to be a right wing US/UK government which has caused our bad numbers?
Very petty stuff and point scoring. I don't see any evidence the left would have handled it any better.

[kwinigolfer]

No, super, but we talked six or seven weeks ago, maybe even in Feb, about the lack of data, and decisions being made without it. And I talked about the lack of logistics expertise (which is a good part of both countries' problems) then.
It's still a struggle but Obama spoke about the likelihood of a pandemic back when he was President, and Drumpf came along and decimated the very units of gov't, both in the CDC and NSC, that were designed to plan for such a thing.
Johnson was, in public anyway, just as nonchalalant about all this as Drumpf was. Until he got sick, apparently.

We have a Republican Guv and he's been terrific, pretty much out in front of everything and deferring to experts where necessary.

[super_realist]

You are right, but I didn't see any of the opposition making noises to contradict anything of what was being said. I didn't see the left speak up against the claims of the WHO which misled the world for a very long time.

I think its tawdry to blame a particular government when governments of every stripe and economic systems of every type have been affected similarly.

If we take anything from this it is that experts should be brought in more rapidly and we shouldn't listen to awful organisations like WHO which are in the pay of China. Also why on earth were we trusting the figures coming out of a corrupt, dictatorial communist state?

[kwinigolfer]

Yup, No winners in this but you're spot on about bringing experts in early - in some places that's just called basic management, but Drumpf dismissed the whole thing.
Perhaps if he'd've taken it more seriously his buddy Boris might have sat up and taken notice.
Instead it's deer-in-the-headlights, here and there.

As for future waves, Soul, that'll be down to testing, testing, testing (and you know how that's going; I see the Cleveland Clinic is giving the thumbs down to the quickie test) and treatment.

Fortunately Mrs kwini bought the device our hospital is using for COVID tests so hopefully that'll give me a fast track if I get contaminated!

[super_realist]

Well perhaps if every country that has been affected badly had clairvoyance to realise what was going to happen, but unfortunately there was simply too much conflicting information around which is easy to see in the resulting figures and easy to criticise once you use hindsight. It's not as if we had one definitive source of information and one direction we should have taken but our government (and all the others badly affected) simply ignored.
Also almost  all European countries were well ahead of the US in terms of the spread of infections so its not as if anyone was looking to the US for how to proceed when we were already affected when they weren't.
Even WHO, who are supposed to be the sort of organisation governments are supposed to consult got it wrong, so not quite sure how you expect any government to reach the best solution for everyone.

[beninho]

Super Realist, the message board king of #whataboutery

[super_realist]

Super Realist, the message board king of #whataboutery

Whataboutery? YES, What about all the information that you've conveniently ignored just to get your daily attack on the government in?

People like you are dying to point out where you think the government has failed because you didn't vote for the government, but make no allowances for the lack of evidence that anything would be any better under the government of your choice. You also make no consideration for the global problems of PPE supply, the conflicting information at the time and the shortcomings of institutions that we are supposed to be able to trust like WHO, who instead completely let the world down to appease China.

You seek to blame the government for absolutely everything when virtually no government of any kind in the entire world is in a position where they couldn't  have got better results had information been better to begin with.
Your point of view is clouded massively by a huge degree of hindsight and blinkered by ignoring everything which was outwith the control of the government.

Could the government had had a better response, yes, but were they limited by conflicting evidence and bad advice from "experts" and WHO? Absolutely.  Remember that in mid bloody January WHO were claiming that it couldn't be transferred from human to human whilst for months every country in the world were using figures coming out of China as if they were true, so buy all means criticise the government, but criticise every other country's governments as well, because 99% of them have endured the same poor information and false data as Britain.

Think about how you felt in February, you probably weren't bothered at all. I was gallavanting around Austria and Germany for a couple of weeks, completely blasé about it all. I doubt you were exercising social distancing or stocking up on toilet paper. It caught everyone out, and that's the point, so to blame ONLY government like you have is incredibly disingenuous. Just puerile political point scoring.
I've never voted Tory in my life and probably never will, but the majority of people will see your constant bashing of the government is a personal vendetta and not a valid criticism of our government response because it's very similar to all other countries (who do have the type of government you would vote for) that you can't bring yourself to criticise.

[beninho]

The main things I've pointed out are that the government was to slow to react. And shouldn't have allowed Cheltenham festival or some of the other events that week. That was  government decision in mid March.

We have a government also saying brexit will be in December. Which on the face of it, looks like a ridiculous decision. A massive recession so we make it harder for companies to trade. Can I criticise on that point?

Plenty if other issues raised with the government's handling and dealings with the nhs over the last years. I think the government can be criticised on that.

Political decision to not get involved in the bulk buying of ventilators and ppe. Can that be criticised?

Can I criticise the government for voting against public sector pay rises a few years ago?

Can I criticise the government refusing to buy extra ppe a few years ago due to cost?

Can I criticise the government's decision to stop testing apart from hospital admissions?

Your lovely phrase of point scoring, while nonsense, but have you criticised the point scoring from the media building up boris?

Anyway, I fear for Hancock, he will be the sacrificial lamb at the end of this.

[Soul Requiem]

Out of interest how many ventilators have the EU procured so far?

[beninho]

Out of interest how many ventilators have the EU procured so far?

Now, you can use hindsight to make a judgement?

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