The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

[jimbopip]

Thank you Mr Shorts

[BamBam]

Who'da thunk it eh. "Go to the pub, go out to eat on the government, go back to the office, go back to school, go back to university" would lead to 6 months of lockdown measures because the public have been very naughty and not been responsible

[LondonTiger]

Who'da thunk it eh. "Go to the pub, go out to eat on the government, go back to the office, go back to school, go back to university" would lead to 6 months of lockdown measures because the public have been very naughty and not been responsible

No, no. Right at the start (of his Commons speech, could not be arsed to listen to the 8pm address) he praised the Common Sense of the British people. (though he did later criticise the "minority" who have spread the virus).

The Govt are in a lose/lose scenario right now - but not helping themselves by appearing to not actually have a plan and reacting much akin to Lance-Corporal Jones.

[BamBam]

Who'da thunk it eh. "Go to the pub, go out to eat on the government, go back to the office, go back to school, go back to university" would lead to 6 months of lockdown measures because the public have been very naughty and not been responsible

No, no. Right at the start (of his Commons speech, could not be arsed to listen to the 8pm address) he praised the Common Sense of the British people. (though he did later criticise the "minority" who have spread the virus).

The Govt are in a lose/lose scenario right now - but not helping themselves by appearing to not actually have a plan and reacting much akin to Lance-Corporal Jones.

That's because we are a "freedom loving country", unlike those idiot Europeans in Italy and Germany, so we struggle to obey the law err the guidelines

[Samo]

Its incredible that through out all of human history its within our lifetimes we've discovered a virus with a watch and a schedule. Simply incredible.

[BamBam]

That's to our advantage. Wait until the clocks go back in October, COVID won't know what's hit it

[king_carlos]

It's the perfect nightmare for a populist leader really. A situation that requires him to make a myriad of unpopular decisions.

I wouldn't want to be the first politician who slips up and mentions that Christmas might have just been cancelled given these restrictions could be around for 6 months. If the no socialising with other households in the home rule that has been announced in Scotland is still around in December then Christmas day is going to be a very difficult time for a lot of families.

A civil servant who popped by my work today for a coffee suggested that we might have a stricter 2 or 3 week lockdown around the October half term. Some are reffering to it as a 'circuit breaker' lockdown to try to break the cycle. If infection rates keep going up then a stricter lockdown seems pretty likely. Coinciding it with half term would reduce the amount of school time the kids miss.

[lostinwales]

It's the perfect nightmare for a populist leader really. A situation that requires him to make a myriad of unpopular decisions.

I wouldn't want to be the first politician who slips up and mentions that Christmas might have just been cancelled given these restrictions could be around for 6 months. If the no socialising with other households in the home rule that has been announced in Scotland is still around in December then Christmas day is going to be a very difficult time for a lot of families.

A civil servant who popped by my work today for a coffee suggested that we might have a stricter 2 or 3 week lockdown around the October half term. Some are reffering to it as a 'circuit breaker' lockdown to try to break the cycle. If infection rates keep going up then a stricter lockdown seems pretty likely. Coinciding it with half term would reduce the amount of school time the kids miss.

I have seen comments to the effect that Uni students may have to stay at university halls etc over Christmas. That will go down well

[king_carlos]

It's the perfect nightmare for a populist leader really. A situation that requires him to make a myriad of unpopular decisions.

I wouldn't want to be the first politician who slips up and mentions that Christmas might have just been cancelled given these restrictions could be around for 6 months. If the no socialising with other households in the home rule that has been announced in Scotland is still around in December then Christmas day is going to be a very difficult time for a lot of families.

A civil servant who popped by my work today for a coffee suggested that we might have a stricter 2 or 3 week lockdown around the October half term. Some are reffering to it as a 'circuit breaker' lockdown to try to break the cycle. If infection rates keep going up then a stricter lockdown seems pretty likely. Coinciding it with half term would reduce the amount of school time the kids miss.

I have seen comments to the effect that Uni students may have to stay at university halls etc over Christmas. That will go down well

If they're forced to isolate in a significant sized bubble in student villages then frankly that sounds like an absolute riot of a Christmas.

Pollock Halls that accommodates most Edinburgh University freshers with almost 2000 students, most of the catered halls these days. 2000 first year students locked in a largely enclosed student village for a month of holidays sounds feral.

[LondonTiger]

At Bath, the freshers are bubbled with their Campus flatmates. Thus bubbles range from 6-11 people. (My daughter is in a minimum bubble). The common areas in each hall is out of bounds (and locked up), students have to wear ID bands permanently to show what bubble they are in and are only allowed anywhere on campus if wearing these bands. The student bar has to be pre-booked and can only hold less than 10% of the campus based students. Staying for Christmas will be a pretty miserable existence.

[king_carlos]

At Bath, the freshers are bubbled with their Campus flatmates. Thus bubbles range from 6-11 people. (My daughter is in a minimum bubble). The common areas in each hall is out of bounds (and locked up), students have to wear ID bands permanently to show what bubble they are in and are only allowed anywhere on campus if wearing these bands. The student bar has to be pre-booked and can only hold less than 10% of the campus based students. Staying for Christmas will be a pretty miserable existence.

I withdraw my previous statements. That sounds dire.

If the yellow/red card disciplinary system being adopted for students in Scotland could see a lot of students lose their places if enforced stringently.

I hope LT jnr is coping OK with the move into Uni life?

[LondonTiger]

She is OK at the moment thanks, KC. She was locked out of her flat this morning having gone for a run without the key card. The weather in Bath has in general been OK so far, so outside socialising has happened - but as the days get shorter and with just one session of face to face teaching per week this term things could get pretty miserable if there are any tensions among the 6 flatmates. The flip side is that she coudl easily have found the standard Freshers week rather overwhelming.

[jimbopip]

LT, you have my sympathy. Speaking father to father. I thought my daughter was fairly resilient emotionally (she is) but remember her phoning home after her first couple of weeks really homesick and miserable. Nothing at all wrong with uni or flatmates just terribly homesick. She got over it fairly quickly but did need lots of parental TLC at that moment. I can only imagine that it'll be tougher for this generation. Keep phoning/ video calling until she tells you to back off would be my, limited, advice.

[LondonTiger]

Thanks Jimbo. I am trying not to impinge on her settling in, but it is a fine balance to maintain.

[king_carlos]

She is OK at the moment thanks, KC. She was locked out of her flat this morning having gone for a run without the key card. The weather in Bath has in general been OK so far, so outside socialising has happened - but as the days get shorter and with just one session of face to face teaching per week this term things could get pretty miserable if there are any tensions among the 6 flatmates. The flip side is that she coudl easily have found the standard Freshers week rather overwhelming.

I'm glad to hear she's coping OK overall, LT. Moving away from home for the first time is stressful at the best of times.

I locked myself out of Pollock Halls of residence in Edinburgh a couple of times by doing that. I think it was a tenner to get the security team to let you back in. It felt like a fortune at the time.

My first attempt at Uni was a single semester in Sheffield (my home city) during which I was in self catered halls. So I was in a flat of 6 similar to your daughter. As a keen cook I love being able to cook for myself but being dropped into a flat at random was stressful. 4 of the guys were great but the 5th was difficult and it did grate over the course of 9 months.

My second attempt at Edinburgh I went catered and whilst I missed cooking I did it easier socially having your own room in a larger halls with lots of you then sharing a communal space. I'm not the greatest at meeting new people though frankly so my experience there may differ from others!

If LT jnrs resolve is anything like that required of you as a moderator on an England vs Wales 6 Nations matchday thread then I'm sure she will thrive!

[Samo]

In an incredible twist of fate that absolutely no one could have seen coming, the “world beating” NHS Serco Test and Trace app cant accept test results from NHS or PHE tests, only tests conducted by privately outsourced companies like Serco themselves - rendering the whole thing effectively useless.

Every time the Tories manage to surprise me with their incompetence they somehow find another bottom to the barrel. Simply astounding.

[Soul Requiem]

.

[No 7&1/2]

Yesterday it was both according to their official Twitter. Glad serco managed to sort it quickly.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Question, do the visors you see a lot of people wearing these days constitute a face covering?

My opinion is no, they are giving a lot of people a false sense of safety, they do not stop you breathing in the virus as it will be in the air around them and just if not more importantly, they do not prevent you breathing out the virus over everybody else. They were designed to protect areas of the face not covered by a face mask.

I can't blame the government for this, it is largely a mis-selling issue, but Hancock should make it clear that if I am right, they are breaking the law wearing just them.

[LondonTiger]

Question, do the visors you see a lot of people wearing these days constitute a face covering?

My opinion is no, they are giving a lot of people a false sense of safety, they do not stop you breathing in the virus as it will be in the air around them and just if not more importantly, they do not prevent you breathing out the virus over everybody else. They were designed to protect areas of the face not covered by a face mask.

I can't blame the government for this, it is largely a mis-selling issue, but Hancock should make it clear that if I am right, they are breaking the law wearing just them.

I believe the face visors stop transmission outwards as much (and often more) as any non surgical face coverings. None of them really serve to protect the wearer all that much though, but then all along the message should have been "Wear masks to save others from you" - which has been said but often not heard.

[LondonTiger]

In an incredible twist of fate that absolutely no one could have seen coming, the “world beating” NHS Serco Test and Trace app cant accept test results from NHS or PHE tests, only tests conducted by privately outsourced companies like Serco themselves - rendering the whole thing effectively useless.

Every time the Tories manage to surprise me with their incompetence they somehow find another bottom to the barrel. Simply astounding.

I used the app to log into somewhere for the first time yesterday (swimming pool) to get the message that I would remain logged in until midnight, or until I logged into another location ie you cannot log out of a location.

Highlighted this in my PlayStore review, and received a response withing minutes to point me to the FAQ.

https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01134/en-us

How does the NHS COVID-19 app know when I’ve left a venue?
The app registers what time you enter a venue but does not register what time you leave. You do not need to check out of a venue. Your phone will register when you check into somewhere new, and it will automatically check you out of your last venue at midnight.

If people with coronavirus (COVID-19) were at the venue at a similar time as you, a human contact tracer from the Contact Tracing and Advisory Service (CTAS), or the Joint Biosecurity Centre (JBC), will look into the case. They'll evaluate the risk level based on the type of venue and the details of the case. This will help them decide who may be at risk.

Seems a major failing to me, and one that would be easy to fix rather than relying on human intervention from a tracing team that are failing to hit their current goals.

[123456789.]

Thought I'd end my self-imposed hiatus as Covid seems to be interesting again.

Seems the government has struck a pretty impressive balance between authoritarianism and incompetence. Keeping students at uni over Christmas is going to be miserable and impossible to enforce. It's all very well giving lip service to the idea of mental and physical well-being, completely pointless if there's no action to back it up.
If you are an 18-year-old at University now you've had your send-off from school cancelled, all the rights of passage we all go through with our pals after we leave school will have been ruined, the government buggered up their A-Level results, they then went to University which is a hard time as it is, their freshers was ruined, the University chose five people at random that they could socialise with, then the government started to leak that they might lock them all in it. All of that for a disease that had a tiny, tiny chance of killing them.

[LondonTiger]

https://www.cityam.com/boris-johnson-confused-about-his-own-rule-of-six-coronavirus-rules/

Spitting Image are going to have a major problem trying to lampoon this Govt it seems.

[king_carlos]

Turns out that nearly 16,000 positive tests went unreported between 25 September and 2 October. I think it's safe to say that Serco Test and Trace could be functioning better...

[navyblueshorts]

Thought I'd end my self-imposed hiatus as Covid seems to be interesting again.

Seems the government has struck a pretty impressive balance between authoritarianism and incompetence. Keeping students at uni over Christmas is going to be miserable and impossible to enforce. It's all very well giving lip service to the idea of mental and physical well-being, completely pointless if there's no action to back it up.
If you are an 18-year-old at University now you've had your send-off from school cancelled, all the rights of passage we all go through with our pals after we leave school will have been ruined, the government buggered up their A-Level results, they then went to University which is a hard time as it is, their freshers was ruined, the University chose five people at random that they could socialise with, then the government started to leak that they might lock them all in it. All of that for a disease that had a tiny, tiny chance of killing them.

Amazingly, it's not just about them.

That aside, yes, this is a shame for them and a mess that everyone foresaw. Still, that's what UKG gets when it won't agree to provide subsidies for universities but insists education should open up again during a pandemic.

[Samo]

Thought I'd end my self-imposed hiatus as Covid seems to be interesting again.

Seems the government has struck a pretty impressive balance between authoritarianism and incompetence. Keeping students at uni over Christmas is going to be miserable and impossible to enforce. It's all very well giving lip service to the idea of mental and physical well-being, completely pointless if there's no action to back it up.
If you are an 18-year-old at University now you've had your send-off from school cancelled, all the rights of passage we all go through with our pals after we leave school will have been ruined, the government buggered up their A-Level results, they then went to University which is a hard time as it is, their freshers was ruined, the University chose five people at random that they could socialise with, then the government started to leak that they might lock them all in it. All of that for a disease that had a tiny, tiny chance of killing them.

Amazingly, it's not just about them.

That aside, yes, this is a shame for them and a mess that everyone foresaw. Still, that's what UKG gets when it won't agree to provide subsidies for universities but insists education should open up again during a pandemic.

The majority of lessons in Universities will be conducted virtually, so the only reason to get students back into halls/accomodation is a nice payday for the landlords.

[LondonTiger]

The majority of lessons in Universities will be conducted virtually, so the only reason to get students back into halls/accomodation is a nice payday for the landlords.

And a number of Universities have now cancelled the face to face lessons on receiving the rent cheques.

My eldest had her first non virtual lesson towards the end of last week. They have been promised 4 hours per week of full contact time - which is being delivered in one lump each week. I understand they have been told that should they switch to full virtual lessons then, after a probable period of quarantining (with food provided by the University) they will be free to return home and get a rebate on rent paid.

[navyblueshorts]

Thought I'd end my self-imposed hiatus as Covid seems to be interesting again.

Seems the government has struck a pretty impressive balance between authoritarianism and incompetence. Keeping students at uni over Christmas is going to be miserable and impossible to enforce. It's all very well giving lip service to the idea of mental and physical well-being, completely pointless if there's no action to back it up.
If you are an 18-year-old at University now you've had your send-off from school cancelled, all the rights of passage we all go through with our pals after we leave school will have been ruined, the government buggered up their A-Level results, they then went to University which is a hard time as it is, their freshers was ruined, the University chose five people at random that they could socialise with, then the government started to leak that they might lock them all in it. All of that for a disease that had a tiny, tiny chance of killing them.

Amazingly, it's not just about them.

That aside, yes, this is a shame for them and a mess that everyone foresaw. Still, that's what UKG gets when it won't agree to provide subsidies for universities but insists education should open up again during a pandemic.

The majority of lessons in Universities will be conducted virtually, so the only reason to get students back into halls/accomodation is a nice payday for the landlords.

Yes, for university residences, I can see that (but see earlier comment re. UKG actually helping the sector). If UKG isn't interested in helping (then again, they wouldn't know the value added of the HE sector), what exactly is so surprising? Not sure it makes any sense for the myriad of students in private digs, unless you're suggesting that universities and private landlords are in some scam together.

[dummy_half]

For those criticising the track and trace system, you really haven't been following the stories of HM Government (of all stripes) and IT systems over at least the last decade. If there is one thing we know by now it is that the Government and the Civil Service have absolutely no idea about IT systems and implementation.

The latest man sausage up with the COVID tracing is just incredibly simple - they have been exporting the data to an Excel spreadsheet and saving to an out-dated file format that limits the sheet to 65000 rows of data. Anything beyond that just fell off the bottom of the page and no-one noticed.

Competence*? Not needed if you went to the right school / University, or contributed enough to the Conservatives.

*My wife has personal experience with the competence or otherwise of Serco...

[lostinwales]

For those criticising the track and trace system, you really haven't been following the stories of HM Government (of all stripes) and IT systems over at least the last decade. If there is one thing we know by now it is that the Government and the Civil Service have absolutely no idea about IT systems and implementation.

The latest man sausage up with the COVID tracing is just incredibly simple - they have been exporting the data to an Excel spreadsheet and saving to an out-dated file format that limits the sheet to 65000 rows of data. Anything beyond that just fell off the bottom of the page and no-one noticed.

Competence*? Not needed if you went to the right school / University, or contributed enough to the Conservatives.

*My wife has personal experience with the competence or otherwise of Serco...

Follows the same pattern of completely ignoring those people who might know a little bit about the problem and who will probably at least advise for nothing. To think we have another 4 years of this, plus Brexit to deal with.

[123456789.]

Thought I'd end my self-imposed hiatus as Covid seems to be interesting again.

Seems the government has struck a pretty impressive balance between authoritarianism and incompetence. Keeping students at uni over Christmas is going to be miserable and impossible to enforce. It's all very well giving lip service to the idea of mental and physical well-being, completely pointless if there's no action to back it up.
If you are an 18-year-old at University now you've had your send-off from school cancelled, all the rights of passage we all go through with our pals after we leave school will have been ruined, the government buggered up their A-Level results, they then went to University which is a hard time as it is, their freshers was ruined, the University chose five people at random that they could socialise with, then the government started to leak that they might lock them all in it. All of that for a disease that had a tiny, tiny chance of killing them.

Amazingly, it's not just about them.

That aside, yes, this is a shame for them and a mess that everyone foresaw. Still, that's what UKG gets when it won't agree to provide subsidies for universities but insists education should open up again during a pandemic.

The majority of lessons in Universities will be conducted virtually, so the only reason to get students back into halls/accomodation is a nice payday for the landlords.

Yes, for university residences, I can see that (but see earlier comment re. UKG actually helping the sector). If UKG isn't interested in helping (then again, they wouldn't know the value added of the HE sector), what exactly is so surprising? Not sure it makes any sense for the myriad of students in private digs, unless you're suggesting that universities and private landlords are in some scam together.

Think there was a bit of a misunderstanding here. My point was the accusations of selfishness at 18-21 year olds are, broadly speaking, wide of the mark. I know of some students that have stayed home and some that have gone back to uni. I don't totally buy the idea that students have been misled on the nature of the studies. Personally, if, at that age I had the chance to be locked down with my mates or my parents I would have chosen the former. I think there's a big grey area between a landord-university conspiracy to extort money off students who only want to be back home with their families and imprisoning them in their halls and houses for months on end. Surely it would be better if students were subject to the same rules as the rest of us and subject to the same penalties for breaking them. If, which I do not believe, they are breaking the rules as a matter of course bringing in more rules is hardly going to solve the problem.

[lostinwales]

Re: students in halls on lockdown. I saw a message that said in one case students were being charged £17/day for food. That is not far off what I spend to feed all 4 of us at home/ day.

[jimbopip]

Re: students in halls on lockdown. I  saw a message that said in one case students were being charged £17/day for food. That is not far off what I spend to feed all 4 of us at home/ day.

All four of us? Is that you and three goldfish?

[jimbopip]

Actually, Lost In Wales....17 x7 = £119

Which is a reasonable amount for a weekly shop. Unless your surname is Rees Mogg.

[lostinwales]

Re: students in halls on lockdown. I  saw a message that said in one case students were being charged £17/day for food. That is not far off what I spend to feed all 4 of us at home/ day.

All four of us? Is that you and three goldfish?

Yes thats Mrs. Goldfish and my two teenage sons Bream and Carp. I'd say we spend in the region of £120-140 a week on fish food.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Almost by definition a body that doesn't listen to the experts after they have already had one catastrophic failure, is incompetent. It now turns out that just like the first lockdown, the scientists (you know the ones who's advice they say they follow) foresaw what would happen and recommended a short circuit breaker lockdown, three weeks ago. This was a full lockdown as per March, to try and stop the spread in its tracks. Government ignore it, three weeks later we get a partial lockdown in some areas worst affected, but not a full lock down.

Restaurants are still allowed to open as well as pubs acting as restaurants. What is the difference when you have table service only anyway. Most pubs serve food, so have a side serving of chips to share with your pint and you are in a restaurant.

Three weeks ago we have transmission rates at less than a quarter of what they are now 2 -3,000 a week, not 16,000 and climbing.

They do not learn from their mistakes and it is costing lives and is harming the economy a lot more than it would if they had simply listened to the scientific advice as they constantly say they have.

They have quietly acknowledged that the Test and Trace system is not working as they have brought the army in in Liverpool to assist the local authorities with the tracing.

I do have to concede however, that some of the blame is not with government but it is down to the rank stupidity of some people, my wife and I were in a pub for lunch the other day and a big party came in and demanded a table for 12, the manager said they could have 2 tables of 6, but separated in different parts of the dining area. They started arguing and actually stated that they were going to sit together anyway, and asked what he was going to do about it. They were rather surprised when he simply called the police and said to the idiots, "Me, nothing. The police quite a lot, including £1,000 fines, EACH" I am not sure if that is correct, but it got their attention. They decided to go elsewhere and managed to get a table in another local pub. I won't name and shame the pub as I didn't see them in there to confirm what they said, however I will say it is a big chain famous for selling cheap beer.

[king_carlos]

The unemployment rate for 16 to 24-year-olds is already at 13.4%.

God I'd hate to be a leaving school at the minute. Grim times.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

[lostinwales]

Almost by definition a body that doesn't listen to the experts after they have already had one catastrophic failure, is incompetent. It now turns out that just like the first lockdown, the scientists (you know the ones who's advice they say they follow) foresaw what would happen and recommended a short circuit breaker lockdown, three weeks ago. This was a full lockdown as per March, to try and stop the spread in its tracks. Government ignore it, three weeks later we get a partial lockdown in some areas worst affected, but not a full lock down.

Restaurants are still allowed to open as well as pubs acting as restaurants. What is the difference when you have table service only anyway. Most pubs serve food, so have a side serving of chips to share with your pint and you are in a restaurant.

Three weeks ago we have transmission rates at less than a quarter of what they are now 2 -3,000 a week, not 16,000 and climbing.

They do not learn from their mistakes and it is costing lives and is harming the economy a lot more than it would if they had simply listened to the scientific advice as they constantly say they have.

They have quietly acknowledged that the Test and Trace system is not working as they have brought the army in in Liverpool to assist the local authorities with the tracing.

I do have to concede however, that some of the blame is not with government but it is down to the rank stupidity of some people, my wife and I were in a pub for lunch the other day and a big party came in and demanded a table for 12, the manager said they could have 2 tables of 6, but separated in different parts of the dining area. They started arguing and actually stated that they were going to sit together anyway, and asked what he was going to do about it. They were rather surprised when he simply called the police and said to the idiots, "Me, nothing. The police quite a lot, including £1,000 fines, EACH" I am not sure if that is correct, but it got their attention. They decided to go elsewhere and managed to get a table in another local pub. I won't name and shame the pub as I didn't see them in there to confirm what they said, however I will say it is a big chain famous for selling cheap beer.

There are a lot of stupid people, always. They more than anyone need clear instructions and explanations to get the message across. We can blame them to an extent but in all honesty they have been set up to mess up by our wonderful government.

[navyblueshorts]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

Fiddle sticks. Nottinghamshire is '2' from tomorrow and has been since yesterday when this was announced. Only reason it's not '3' is hospital admissions at moment, but imagine that might change in a week or two:

Nottingham
From Wednesday 14 October, your area will be under local restrictions, in addition to the measures which apply across England. It will be in the high alert (tier two) category. Your local authority website has full details of the restrictions which apply to you.

[navyblueshorts]

Almost by definition a body that doesn't listen to the experts after they have already had one catastrophic failure, is incompetent. It now turns out that just like the first lockdown, the scientists (you know the ones who's advice they say they follow) foresaw what would happen and recommended a short circuit breaker lockdown, three weeks ago. This was a full lockdown as per March, to try and stop the spread in its tracks. Government ignore it, three weeks later we get a partial lockdown in some areas worst affected, but not a full lock down.

Restaurants are still allowed to open as well as pubs acting as restaurants. What is the difference when you have table service only anyway. Most pubs serve food, so have a side serving of chips to share with your pint and you are in a restaurant.

Three weeks ago we have transmission rates at less than a quarter of what they are now 2 -3,000 a week, not 16,000 and climbing.

They do not learn from their mistakes and it is costing lives and is harming the economy a lot more than it would if they had simply listened to the scientific advice as they constantly say they have.

They have quietly acknowledged that the Test and Trace system is not working as they have brought the army in in Liverpool to assist the local authorities with the tracing.

I do have to concede however, that some of the blame is not with government but it is down to the rank stupidity of some people, my wife and I were in a pub for lunch the other day and a big party came in and demanded a table for 12, the manager said they could have 2 tables of 6, but separated in different parts of the dining area. They started arguing and actually stated that they were going to sit together anyway, and asked what he was going to do about it. They were rather surprised when he simply called the police and said to the idiots, "Me, nothing. The police quite a lot, including £1,000 fines, EACH" I am not sure if that is correct, but it got their attention. They decided to go elsewhere and managed to get a table in another local pub. I won't name and shame the pub as I didn't see them in there to confirm what they said, however I will say it is a big chain famous for selling cheap beer.

There are a lot of stupid people, always. They more than anyone need clear instructions and explanations to get the message across. We can blame them to an extent but in all honesty they have been set up to mess up by our wonderful government.

This is true -  I'm quite impressed that there hasn't been more official criticism of what appears to be a lot of people disobeying instruction. However, it's still dead simple:

2m+ social distance
Wash hands a lot
Keep away from others
Don't do something unless it's necessary (nope, you don't need to go to the pub/theatre/holiday/restaurant/etc)

Those underpin everything else. All the other stuff is window dressing, but there's so much 'whining' (understandably in many cases) about "...but, the economy!!!!" it's a lose/lose for UKG. UKG says 'lockdown' - loads of whingers complain. UKG doesn't say 'lockdown' - loads of whingers complain. Maybe I over-estimate the intellect and selflessness of the average Brit, but God alone knows why.

[lostinwales]

Almost by definition a body that doesn't listen to the experts after they have already had one catastrophic failure, is incompetent. It now turns out that just like the first lockdown, the scientists (you know the ones who's advice they say they follow) foresaw what would happen and recommended a short circuit breaker lockdown, three weeks ago. This was a full lockdown as per March, to try and stop the spread in its tracks. Government ignore it, three weeks later we get a partial lockdown in some areas worst affected, but not a full lock down.

Restaurants are still allowed to open as well as pubs acting as restaurants. What is the difference when you have table service only anyway. Most pubs serve food, so have a side serving of chips to share with your pint and you are in a restaurant.

Three weeks ago we have transmission rates at less than a quarter of what they are now 2 -3,000 a week, not 16,000 and climbing.

They do not learn from their mistakes and it is costing lives and is harming the economy a lot more than it would if they had simply listened to the scientific advice as they constantly say they have.

They have quietly acknowledged that the Test and Trace system is not working as they have brought the army in in Liverpool to assist the local authorities with the tracing.

I do have to concede however, that some of the blame is not with government but it is down to the rank stupidity of some people, my wife and I were in a pub for lunch the other day and a big party came in and demanded a table for 12, the manager said they could have 2 tables of 6, but separated in different parts of the dining area. They started arguing and actually stated that they were going to sit together anyway, and asked what he was going to do about it. They were rather surprised when he simply called the police and said to the idiots, "Me, nothing. The police quite a lot, including £1,000 fines, EACH" I am not sure if that is correct, but it got their attention. They decided to go elsewhere and managed to get a table in another local pub. I won't name and shame the pub as I didn't see them in there to confirm what they said, however I will say it is a big chain famous for selling cheap beer.

There are a lot of stupid people, always. They more than anyone need clear instructions and explanations to get the message across. We can blame them to an extent but in all honesty they have been set up to mess up by our wonderful government.

This is true -  I'm quite impressed that there hasn't been more official criticism of what appears to be a lot of people disobeying instruction. However, it's still dead simple:

2m+ social distance
Wash hands a lot
Keep away from others
Don't do something unless it's necessary (nope, you don't need to go to the pub/theatre/holiday/restaurant/etc)

Those underpin everything else. All the other stuff is window dressing, but there's so much 'whining' (understandably in many cases) about "...but, the economy!!!!" it's a lose/lose for UKG. UKG says 'lockdown' - loads of whingers complain. UKG doesn't say 'lockdown' - loads of whingers complain. Maybe I over-estimate the intellect and selflessness of the average Brit, but God alone knows why.

And if we did lockdown and it worked there would of course be many comments along the lines of 'Was lockdown even necessary?'

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

Fiddle sticks. Nottinghamshire is '2' from tomorrow and has been since yesterday when this was announced. Only reason it's not '3' is hospital admissions at moment, but imagine that might change in a week or two:

Nottingham
From Wednesday 14 October, your area will be under local restrictions, in addition to the measures which apply across England. It will be in the high alert (tier two) category. Your local authority website has full details of the restrictions which apply to you.

We were on holiday last week and in the lodge next to us were a couple from Nottingham, they were saying that Nottingham were having serious problems and had been asking the government for powers to apply heavy restrictions or that the government apply them, they currently have an 830 / 100,000 infection rate, the highest in the country. They wanted a lockdown scenario. The government have put them as class 2, despite this and warned that it may change to 3. Why is the place with the highest infection rates in the country on level 2 with immediate effect. It might be that they have a lot of hospital space available and that it is the younger generations that are catching it and passing it on, surely that is irrelevant. The speed at which this virus spreads means you hit it hard asap, not leave it until it is too late and the hospitals are full and the elderly start to catch it due to the sheer numbers of infected people.

That is what happened in March and has happened again now, acting too late to stop it from infecting tens of thousands of people, a number of whom will die as a result.

[lostinwales]

Increasingly it seems that the best policy would have been to devolve as much power to local authorities as possible. The irony is that doing so would have enabled the government to indulge in its 2nd favourite pastime of passing the blame.

[navyblueshorts]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

Fiddle sticks. Nottinghamshire is '2' from tomorrow and has been since yesterday when this was announced. Only reason it's not '3' is hospital admissions at moment, but imagine that might change in a week or two:

Nottingham
From Wednesday 14 October, your area will be under local restrictions, in addition to the measures which apply across England. It will be in the high alert (tier two) category. Your local authority website has full details of the restrictions which apply to you.

We were on holiday last week and in the lodge next to us were a couple from Nottingham, they were saying that Nottingham were having serious problems and had been asking the government for powers to apply heavy restrictions or that the government apply them, they currently have an 830 / 100,000 infection rate, the highest in the country. They wanted a lockdown scenario. The government have put them as class 2, despite this and warned that it may change to 3. Why is the place with the highest infection rates in the country on level 2 with immediate effect. It might be that they have a lot of hospital space available and that it is the younger generations that are catching it and passing it on, surely that is irrelevant. The speed at which this virus spreads means you hit it hard asap, not leave it until it is too late and the hospitals are full and the elderly start to catch it due to the sheer numbers of infected people.

That is what happened in March and has happened again now, acting too late to stop it from infecting tens of thousands of people, a number of whom will die as a result.

Nope. The explicit reason why Notts is Tier 2 is, I believe, due to hospital admissions. Liverpool is a lot worse currently on that score. I didn't make the rules. Don't get me wrong, I don't think recent UKG policy on this has been correct, but I get that they have to consider things other than 'the science' on Covid alone.

[jimbopip]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

Fiddle sticks. Nottinghamshire is '2' from tomorrow and has been since yesterday when this was announced. Only reason it's not '3' is hospital admissions at moment, but imagine that might change in a week or two:

Nottingham
From Wednesday 14 October, your area will be under local restrictions, in addition to the measures which apply across England. It will be in the high alert (tier two) category. Your local authority website has full details of the restrictions which apply to you.

We were on holiday last week and in the lodge next to us were a couple from Nottingham, they were saying that Nottingham were having serious problems and had been asking the government for powers to apply heavy restrictions or that the government apply them, they currently have an 830 / 100,000 infection rate, the highest in the country. They wanted a lockdown scenario. The government have put them as class 2, despite this and warned that it may change to 3. Why is the place with the highest infection rates in the country on level 2 with immediate effect. It might be that they have a lot of hospital space available and that it is the younger generations that are catching it and passing it on, surely that is irrelevant. The speed at which this virus spreads means you hit it hard asap, not leave it until it is too late and the hospitals are full and the elderly start to catch it due to the sheer numbers of infected people.

That is what happened in March and has happened again now, acting too late to stop it from infecting tens of thousands of people, a number of whom will die as a result.

Nope. The explicit reason why Notts is Tier 2 is, I believe, due to hospital admissions. Liverpool is a lot worse currently on that score. I didn't make the rules. Don't get me wrong, I don't think recent UKG policy on this has been correct, but I get that they have to consider things other than 'the science' on Covid alone.

So give it a week or two until hospital admissions increase; which the number of , and increase in, infections pretty much guarantees THEN take action.

[navyblueshorts]

Essex and I think Nottingham County Councils have asked the government to raise the status to "2" due to quickly rising cases, the government have apparently not listened to them as they remain on "1".

Who knows more about what is happening locally than the local authorities, no doubt when the levels rise beyond the ability of the LA to deal with it, they will class them a "3" imposing more draconian measures than would be needed with earlier action.

Fiddle sticks. Nottinghamshire is '2' from tomorrow and has been since yesterday when this was announced. Only reason it's not '3' is hospital admissions at moment, but imagine that might change in a week or two:

Nottingham
From Wednesday 14 October, your area will be under local restrictions, in addition to the measures which apply across England. It will be in the high alert (tier two) category. Your local authority website has full details of the restrictions which apply to you.

We were on holiday last week and in the lodge next to us were a couple from Nottingham, they were saying that Nottingham were having serious problems and had been asking the government for powers to apply heavy restrictions or that the government apply them, they currently have an 830 / 100,000 infection rate, the highest in the country. They wanted a lockdown scenario. The government have put them as class 2, despite this and warned that it may change to 3. Why is the place with the highest infection rates in the country on level 2 with immediate effect. It might be that they have a lot of hospital space available and that it is the younger generations that are catching it and passing it on, surely that is irrelevant. The speed at which this virus spreads means you hit it hard asap, not leave it until it is too late and the hospitals are full and the elderly start to catch it due to the sheer numbers of infected people.

That is what happened in March and has happened again now, acting too late to stop it from infecting tens of thousands of people, a number of whom will die as a result.

Nope. The explicit reason why Notts is Tier 2 is, I believe, due to hospital admissions. Liverpool is a lot worse currently on that score. I didn't make the rules. Don't get me wrong, I don't think recent UKG policy on this has been correct, but I get that they have to consider things other than 'the science' on Covid alone.

So give it a week or two until hospital admissions increase; which the number of , and increase in, infections pretty much guarantees THEN take action.

Whatever. I don't make the rules. They have to have some form of definitions. The only thing that made a significant difference in March was a total lockdown (i.e. force people to keep away from one another) - the rest was p!ssing in the wind, although hand washing etc is sound advice. I haven't agreed w/ a great deal they've done since June/July, whereas early on they were fire fighting. Yep, there were early problems, but they were playing the hand they were essentially dealt at the time. Now, not so much...

[123456789.]

From what I can gather, in a nutshell, almost all the contracts the government have given out have been to cronies, uni buddies, sister-in-laws, great-uncles-cousins-sisters-mothers-neighbours-boy's-pal etc. They have almost invariably and unsurprisingly not worked. Which means the government is left with the unenviable choice between locking down and smashing the economy or not locking down and seeing a rise in infection. I can't really see the point in a circuit breaker because ultimately all the same problems will arise again until we have clear communication, straightforward rules, compliance with those rules and an effective test and trace system none of which seems likely to arise in the next fortnight. It seems everything is just shifting deck-chairs on the titanic at the moment.

[guildfordbat]

Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area? I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.

[LondonTiger]

Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.

My understanding is that Tier 2 residents are being asked not to leave their tier, but it is not a formal requirement. So they can leave the area, go to a Tier 1 area and then abide by their rules. HMG do not want that to happen, but have not banned it.

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