Pro 14 expanding?

First topic message reminder :

Appears thst there are a lot of reports of the SA super Rugby teams leaving super rugby and joining the Pro 14.
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/south-african-teams-to-leave-super-rugby-for-the-pro14---report/627556

How professional are the Pumas and Griquas currently. It seems that one of those were better placed than the Kings to be the 6th professional team in SA but for political reasons it was the Kings. My wife has family in PE and it seems a nice place but it seems one of the other two would have been better.

The reason I ask about those 2 teams is it seems they are already professional and could step up to a Currie Cup right away. I don't know though if they are dependent on the SR teams giving them players for the Currie Cup. The problem with professionalism is that you need more rounds than back in the day.

Would you like to see the Jags in a Currie Cup as I know they were in it in some form as was a Nambian team and others over the years.

Pumas and Griquas are essentially professional but don’t have exposure to earn more revenue, They have their own Currie Cup squads and obviously are mostly in a rebuilding mode most of the time due to players securing better contracts elsewhere.

No don’t want Argentina near the Currie Cup.

mikey_dragon wrote:Entering 6 Currie Cup teams would work if we ditched the Italians, I figure we’d do that in a heartbeat if it came down to it. Enter Super Rugby teams and I don’t see many apart from Leinster coming close to the South Africans.

That's a hell of a statement Mikey.  One I dont share.  Cheetahs only made the playoffs once, and got embarresed by the Scarlets at full strength in that game.  

They did ok at the half way point this year but again would have probably wouldnt have made the 3rd spot with Glasgow simply a better side than them.  Cheetahs have only been credible at home.  I dont even have to mention Southern Kings as they have been the worst team in the league by some distance.

When you look at next seasons transfers for the Pro14 with some top players being brought in, the top 4 to top 6 sides all have substantially bigger budgets than their SH counterparts.  Teams that would and should expect to be win with the amount of payroll they have are:-

Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Scarlets

And even then I would imagine that Ospreys will be a damn side better next year than what they showed this year.  They have to much quality to be a bottom tier team.

In reality I could only see the South African sides beating less well funded teams and even that's not a given.  Even when you look at their current rosters (assuming they retain all those players), Stormers, Sharks and Bulls have been totally gutted.  Maybe the Sharks would have a good go at it but with their squad they still would be behind the top 6.  Even if they performed in the league for a season they would be gutted by sides with larger payrolls.  Similar to what we have seen with the Cheetahs since they got inducted.

Welshmushroom wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Entering 6 Currie Cup teams would work if we ditched the Italians, I figure we’d do that in a heartbeat if it came down to it. Enter Super Rugby teams and I don’t see many apart from Leinster coming close to the South Africans.

That's a hell of a statement Mikey.  One I dont share.  Cheetahs only made the playoffs once, and got embarresed by the Scarlets at full strength in that game.  

They did ok at the half way point this year but again would have probably wouldnt have made the 3rd spot with Glasgow simply a better side than them.  Cheetahs have only been credible at home.  I dont even have to mention Southern Kings as they have been the worst team in the league by some distance.

When you look at next seasons transfers for the Pro14 with some top players being brought in, the top 4 to top 6 sides all have substantially bigger budgets than their SH counterparts.  Teams that would and should expect to be win with the amount of payroll they have are:-

Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Scarlets

And even then I would imagine that Ospreys will be a damn side better next year than what they showed this year.  They have to much quality to be a bottom tier team.

In reality I could only see the South African sides beating less well funded teams and even that's not a given.  Even when you look at their current rosters (assuming they retain all those players), Stormers, Sharks and Bulls have been totally gutted.  Maybe the Sharks would have a good go at it but with their squad they still would be behind the top 6.  Even if they performed in the league for a season they would be gutted by sides with larger payrolls.  Similar to what we have seen with the Cheetahs since they got inducted.

All mere speculation on how the SA teams will perform in the Pro whatever.

The Sharks were on top of the Super Rugby log this season, Stormers did well, Lions and Bulls rebuilding, but the Bulls have been contracting some good olayers during the lockdown.

I suspect our Super Rugby Franchises will do very well in the Pro whatever.

Although my personal preference is not for them to play the pro whatever.

Old Man wrote:

Brendan wrote:Currently SR is 16 weeks excluding byes and rest weeks.  There are 6 for the Currie Cup.  So that is already 22 weeks for the SA teams.  Currie Cup is currently only one game against each other.

Under the above system you would have no rest weeks.  You would have an 8 team Currie Cup that would allow only the 6 best SA teams to play in the Pro 14.  This means that you can have promotion/relegation between the Currie Cup and the division below.  The two teams not in the Pro 14 would still have 14 games a season but would need a much smaller squad.  If all 8 teams got European games aswell (even without it) then they would be commercially viable.  Having the top 6 teams mean that if the Griquas or Pumas were better than the Kings they would be rewarded with Pro14 games but the Kings could still run as a professional team, just reduce or loan some of their players the next year.

Currently the Super Rugby teams play 6 games against other SA teams at a high level, the Pro14 teams play 3 games.  The 8 teams in the Currie Cup (as far as I know the Kings are being added to bring it up to 8 teams) play 7 games other teams.

So total so currently
Stormers, Sharks, Bulls, Lions - 13 games (6+7)
Cheetahs, Kings 10 (3+7)
Lukas, Griquas 7

Each team would get one more game against SA teams but the Currie Cup matches would be much better standard and interest.
SA would be able to have the 8 professional teams they want while the two weakest would only need a smaller budget than the other 6 teams so could better support themselves.  They also wouldn't have the cliff to fall off if they miss out on the Pro14 like the Kings and Cheetahs faced when being axed from SR.
The Conference games for SA could also be timed where 3/4 weeks before the international team selections you have the SA teams only playing each other so it can be a trial for the international team.  The other unions would agree as it means no SH travel before internationals.

That is more or less correct, but that is exactly why SA fans are losing interest. They don’t want that many games, they want Currie Cup to be the showcase, at this stage most don’t want to be part of a lengthy tournament outside the Currie Cup.

Top 7 teams in the premier division, next seven teams in the B division with either Super rugby with max nine teams, single round robin, 8 weeks to completion, or European Champions Cup which by memory takes nine weeks.

Same, the SA sides have added nothing to the competition and their fans have...oh wait they don't actually have any anymore.

Welshmushroom wrote:

And even then I would imagine that Ospreys will be a damn side better next year than what they showed this year.  They have to much quality to be a bottom tier team.

Be interesting to see what happens with the budgets, as Ospreys were due to get extra money for next season, for qualifying for the Champions Cup this one. Plus, with their backer, they will definitely be stronger. I guess it's all supposition until we see signings etc.

I disagree on the Cheetahs, if you look at thier run in and Glasgows, Cheetahs was much easier and you would have to say they were favourites to finish in 3rd

Kingshu wrote:I disagree on the Cheetahs, if you look at thier run in and Glasgows, Cheetahs was much easier and you would have to say they were favourites to finish in 3rd

Even if they had finished 3rd (and that's a big if), did you really see them turning over Munster or Scarlets with either of those sides having a home qtr final. So in reality they would have been 5th or 6th in the league. Which would have been an incredible achievement given the payroll they have to work with. I still mantain though that with the playing budgets of both the Ospreys and Blues they should be doing a hell of a lot better than they have been. It's more a case of how poorly those regions have been managed & coached than Cheetahs really having the resources to maintain being the 5th or 6th best side in the league.

RiscaGame wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

And even then I would imagine that Ospreys will be a damn side better next year than what they showed this year.  They have to much quality to be a bottom tier team.

Be interesting to see what happens with the budgets, as Ospreys were due to get extra money for next season, for qualifying for the Champions Cup this one. Plus, with their backer, they will definitely be stronger. I guess it's all supposition until we see signings etc.

The problem with the Ospreys is that they are overpaying their best players. Tipuric for example isnt worth the 450K they are paying him. He is a top draw openside but there are so many quality opensides around that its a position where there is plenty of competition. My view is there are always more key positions on a rugby pitch. I'd probably have Fly Half, Tighthead, Locks, No 8 all ahead of them as they are more key roles.

Halfpenny is another example of a guy being overpaid. Sure he ticks the qualifying pay bands by being a former Lion. But his form currently wont see him get anywhere near the Lions again and he is at the end of his career. Its hard to even see him break into Scarlets first team as I would imagine Liam, McNicholl & Evans will all be ahead of him. I would have put the 300-400K they are paying him to actually getting a second quality tighthead or blindside flanker. To be honest with that budget they could have potentially recruited 2 players and got more mileage.

I would certainly agree on Halfpenny.

Agree on that too, but scarlets don’t need another blind side. They definitely need another TH of high quality though. Ospreys could probably do with a TH and lock themselves, and also a back-up to Anscombe, a winger, and probably a full-back because the back-up players in those positions have looked out of their depth. I’m still hoping Dragons get busier on the recruiting front but I can’t see it. 

Prop and lock should be the highest paid positions, followed by the halfbacks.

Just remembered that Ospreys signed that lad from Bristol who can play 10 and 15, right?

Yesterday at 6:23 pm
by Welshmushroom
Kingshu wrote:
I disagree on the Cheetahs, if you look at thier run in and Glasgows, Cheetahs was much easier and you would have to say they were favourites to finish in 3rd
Even if they had finished 3rd (and that's a big if), did you really see them turning over Munster or Scarlets with either of those sides having a home qtr final. So in reality they would have been 5th or 6th in the league. Which would have been an incredible achievement given the payroll they have to work with. I still mantain though that with the playing budgets of both the Ospreys and Blues they should be doing a hell of a lot better than they have been. It's more a case of how poorly those regions have been managed & coached than Cheetahs really having the resources to maintain being the 5th or 6th best side in the league.


The Cheetahs don't have the biggest budget, true, but they also haven't been allowed to qualify for European competitions. I was under the impression that when the Hcup rights next came up for negotiation the Pro 14 Unions were going to push for the SA teams in the Pro 14 to be allowed to qualify for European matches. This was something the SA union wished to generate more money for them and part of the agreement in adding them. I would hazard a guess the Pro 14 Unions were happy to do this and push for the expansion to 24 teams. Afterall they now have 60million more chimney pots to neogate with than last time. I also don't see the French or English objecting as it will increase revenue. An estimate of an extra 1/2 million, for getting into the group stage, for both prize money and gates generated would certainly help.

I think we are heading back to a 24 team champions cup.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the English cap, weakens them and will result in stronger Pr14 teams. The 7th placed French would Definately improved the competition as would the next Pro14 team.

The problem with the Ospreys is that they are overpaying their best players. Tipuric for example isnt worth the 450K they are paying him.

This is IMO the welsh problem in the pro 14. Paying stars too much at the expense of the wider squad you need for success. I wish the numbers were more transparent but ( bar the dragons) the rest of the welsh teams have similar or larger budgets to the scottish teams. the difference is we do not overpay for the test players. Top paid player in Scotland is on £300 000 pa ( or was a season or so ago)

This is why Russell, Hogg, Laidlaw and Gray brothers have all left scotland ( as well as the challenge of playing elsewhere)

NOt overpaying for half a dozen stars allow you a deeper squad

I am keen on expansion - especially if we can get to a two tier league ie at least 20 teams

I would understand if SA got more involved in the Pro14 due to the hopefully bigger revenue streans, but I am not keen on it.

SA must build their Currie Cup, then either have involvement in a short champions style cup Super Rugby or European Champions Cup.

I struggle to see how a SH season is going to work with a NH season.

Hence my preference is Currie Cup then Super Rugby in a much changed format.

That’s a load of bollix tbh. It’s more likely that Wales have more better players that will get targeted by big spending clubs - the French less likely nowadays after some of our high profile players didn’t speak well of the Top 14. The trouble is that we didn’t have any good coaches, and probably not enough international’s to spread across 4 teams yet. Most teams suffer from similar issues but they’re able to get good coaches and quality overseas players to fill the void. Scarlets are a good welsh example of such a team where there is a blend of homegrown and overseas quality which forms a good squad. And if I’m being honest the Welsh talent production has stalled in recent years, not enough quality coming off the conveyor belt compared to england, France, SA, NZ. This is why it is also important to keep people like Tipuric, AWJ, etc. 

Tips probably isn’t the best example due to the number of available open-sides that could have been brought in for less than half his price. Ospreys can afford it now anyway.

Welsh sides have definately struggled with having good coaches.  Ospreys in particular have been poor.  They also don't seem to produce to many head coaches either.

I think Wales have the players coming through, they are just poorly managed once they get there and seem to fall off, or some succeed inspite of the coaches.

They have the Quaility to be as good as the Irish and Scottish teams and to be fair there is normally one of them who is.

Dragons always seemed to produce a few young players each year who would then move to another region so Dragon have the players and now the backing to do it

I hope the big 4 SA sides do join, they would bring a very welcome financial boost as well as competitive boost to the Pro 14 and Europe. If they were to join I believe I have a format that would keep everyone happy.

I don't think fans like cross conference games, as they are unbalanced - for example if Cheetahs had made the playoffs this year, I (rightly) think Glasgow fans would have been pissed off that Cheetahs played 2 extra games against the bottom side in conference B ( Southern Kings) and they played their 2 against the top team in conference B (Edinburgh), or one played Munster away and the other played them at home, the current set up isn't fair. So unblanced Conference games are to be removed.
2nd derbies need to be kept.
3rd SA sides still fit in the currie cup
4th - I think the 3 regional conferences (that have been rumoured) would be unfair, some conferences would be tougher, and may change over time. The way the conferences are allocated, on league position now is the fairest way.
5th has to be about same length as now, and teams get about same number of home games.

How can this be done? Its actually pretty straightforward but may need read a couple of times to fully click.

Two conferences of 9 drawn by league position (like now) 3 SA, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian team in each conference. (Drawn like present, so will save the details of 1st and 3rd Irish in Conference A/B etc).

It appears if we get a global calender there will be 8 games before the 6 nations start. My plan is to start the season with a domestic Competition, games against teams that are also in your Conference count toward the Domestic Comp and the overall League. I'll give examples of possible Comps, to make it easier, also seen as some games count towards the League it would have to come under this, and work with the Pro 14, CVC, the TV partners etc.

GUINNESS Pro 18 inter provincial series:
Four provinces play each other home and away. Top of league wins (no playoffs, just old fashioned top wins- which will keep some people happy). 6 game weeks, 6 teams per team, 2 of which count in the conferences. So taking this years conferences Munsters 2 games V Connacht in the inter pros also get used for the conference, the 2 V Ulster just count towards the inter pro title.

Wales play the Guinness Pro 18 regional series, set out same as above. Scotland and Italy the same.

Guinness Pro 18 Currie Cup. It is more complicated so I'll come back to it, and just go through a European teams journey.

Playing these before the 6 nations means that first team players should be on display to get them match fit before the 6 Nations so would be full blooded affairs, it also gives teams a chance to win a domestic trophy and bragging rights. All derbies are kept. It also generates a lot of interest domestically with the league proper starting after (which these can be a build up too and part off)

Gameweek 7 European teams play each other, and gameweek 8 they skip and so into national camp early (get about a extra 12/13 days in camp)

After the 6 Nations the Pro 14 starts proper with the european teams already having played 2 games against a team in their conference in the domestic cup and 1 other in game week 7. The conference plays out home and away (No cross conference games). Top 3 in each play off for Cup, 4-6 play off for a Shield.

Final can be a double header, first game is Shield final, 2nd game is Grand Final. (Which increases chance that the host nation has a representive). If 8 teams qualify for Europe, then its the 6 Cup playoff teams, plus the Shield finalists (which makes it worth pushing for).

20 round season is one less than now (6 domestic, 2 of which are also Conference, plus a further 14 conference games), or 21 rounds same as now, if round 8 is skipped to get everyone into national camp early.
Each team gets 11 home games (currently its 10 or 11 depending on draw).
Trip to SA only needed once for a 3 game series, and SA teams only need to travel north twice for two, three game series. Which should reduce travel and costs.

Coming back to SA sides and the Guinness Pro 14 Currie Cup, as it can take different formats depending on what SA rugby wishes.
Could have 6 team currie cup game home and away, would need to play 2 more rounds than a European team, (possible start a week earlier and dont get to rest game week 8)
8 team Currie cup in two conferences of 4 and a grand final (one extra game week).
Knock out currie cup?
6 or 8 teams play once either home or away?

Let me know your thought, or if want anything clarfied.

Currently SA have 14 Provinces (count the six professional franchises as provinces as for all intent and purposes that is what they are.)

So the six fully professional outfits are Sharks, Bulls, Lions, Stormers, Cheetahs and Kings.

The reality is the Kings have been mismanaged financially since they became the Kings.

Griquas and Pumas are the two best semi professional sides.

So with careful planning there can be around 8 professional teams.

Thus best case scenario you will have a mix of eight teams in Currie Cup Premier division.

However if talent is still hogged by the top four or five teams then the mismatches will continue.

SARU needs to ensure a balanced talent pool.

My opinion is that for any inter provincial/club competition we must put together our top talented players via a draft and not our best teams.

I would rather see our best get drafted so the best play top class rugby than top four teams go through and half of ourbest talent stays home

Old Man wrote:Currently SA have 14 Provinces (count the six professional franchises as provinces as for all intent and purposes that is what they are.)

So the six fully professional outfits are Sharks, Bulls, Lions, Stormers, Cheetahs and Kings.

The reality is the Kings have been mismanaged financially since they became the Kings.

Griquas and Pumas are the two best semi professional sides.

So with careful planning there can be around 8 professional teams.

Thus best case scenario you will have a mix of eight teams in Currie Cup Premier division.

However if talent is still hogged by the top four or five teams then the mismatches will continue.

SARU needs to ensure a balanced talent pool.

My opinion is that for any inter provincial/club competition we must put together our top talented players via a draft and not our best teams.

I would rather see our best get drafted so the best play top class rugby than top four teams go through and half of ourbest talent stays home

Are the Kings fully professional? Isn't their total wage bill less than a million euros? That's less than some clubs in Romania and all the fully pro clubs in Russia. I don't see any future for the Kings as a franchise and I'm not keen on the politics that seems to surround the club.

The way I see it, SA Rugby are now just holding the 70% untill a buyer comes in, pumas and griquas must be pushing to have one of them replace SK in the Pro 14.
Even at that the model above allows 6 SA teams still.
They can use a draft system if they want won't change the format.
If wanting 8 teams in currie cup still can, but Pro 14 will only accept 6 SA sides. Rumours are that they only want 5 which doesnt bode well for SK as the pro 14 may have had enough of them now. Think SA can enter 6 and have a 6 team Currie cup and finamce them well enough to keep more players than they do currently.

The Kings got pushed into Super Rugby due to political pressure, and their future regardless of financial mismanagement or poor performances are basically guaranteed in whatever competition they play due to that political pressure.

That is also the reason why I don’t want SA in the Pro14, we need our systems sorted from within.

And that can only be done through rebuilding the Currie Cup.

We obviously don’t have the revenue potential to build all 14 provinces into a full Currie Cup premier division.

The only interprovincial rugby SA should be involved in is European Champions Cup or a similar format in Super Rugby.

Over the last 25 years Currie Cup has taken a back seat to Super Rugby, if it gets fully involved into a Pro 14/18 then we are just repeating the same mistakes.

Old Man wrote:The Kings got pushed into Super Rugby due to political pressure, and their future  regardless of financial mismanagement or poor performances are basically guaranteed in whatever competition they play due to that political pressure.

That is also the reason why I don’t want SA in the Pro14, we need our systems sorted from within.

And that can only be done through rebuilding the Currie Cup.

We obviously don’t have the revenue potential to build all 14 provinces into a full Currie Cup premier division.

The only interprovincial rugby SA should be involved in is European Champions Cup or a similar format in Super Rugby.

Over the last 25 years Currie Cup has taken a back seat to Super Rugby, if it gets fully involved into a Pro 14/18 then we are just repeating the same mistakes.

How can the franchisee keep going if it has no supporters though and they are already living on a shoe string budget. It was a huge mistake on our side to let this franchise in with the baggage that comes with it, hopefully both parties can cut their loses here and move on. I also would hate to see the European cup changed again, hopefully they can create a similar cup with the super rugby sides instead of joining the European one.

The cheetahs have been worthy. The kings... not really. If we want to drive up the standards it seems the Welsh and South Africans need to improve some of their teams.

Kings will never improve

Can someone take the Kings place then, Boland? Pumas?

Chances are slim, the Kings is there because of political pressure

In 2012 the Lions were kicked out of Super Rugby to accommodate the Kings. That tells you everything you need to know

Yeah you’ve got me there.

Aironi in their 2 years in the league gained 5 wins, 1 the 1st year and 4 the second and they also had its licence for financial reasons by the FIR.

SK have 4 wins in their 2 and 3/4 seasons. They are on shaky ground, not sure if thier debt is as high as Aironis was at £4 million, but with the lastest change of ownership I wouldnt be surprised if they are replaced for next season. SA rugby gave assures to the Pro 14 about these teams and that they would each have at least 3 international players among other things, so I wouldn't be surprised if before next season the Pro 14 puts pressure on SA Rugby to deliver.

Although SA appear to want 8 professional teams it seams that they can only really support 5 quality teams. If wanting 6 in the Pro 14 they have to make sure the 6th one is up to it. The rumour is the Pro 14 only want 5 SA teams, as they may be fed up with SK and any replacement isn't going to be any better. I have a feeling that they may put out feeliers to Argentina to enter the Jaguares (who may have played their last super rugby game), based in Spain. A good team, in a market that has lots of potentional. Keep Cheetahs add the big 4 SA teams and Jags and you have serious competition.

I'd be happy if they add the big four and Cheetahs, and either make a commitment or deliver on the commitments they have already made, but SK or another team cannot be allowed in and carry on the same way SK have for the last 3 years. 5 plus spanish jags may be a better proposal though.

The malarky that is the Kings

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/pro14-expansion-could-see-the-cheetahs-and-kings-axed---report/628319

Kingshu wrote:https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/pro14-expansion-could-see-the-cheetahs-and-kings-axed---report/628319

If this is to happen I think that it is unfair on the Cheetahs. It would be the second time they get kicked out. I would like to see them retained.

The kings I am torn on as they are a mess, maybe replace with a European based Jags to give an even number

I often wonder where these journalists get their information from. Jurie Roux says SARU is committed to SANZAAR, then you read of potential changes.

I don’t think we can take any lf this seriously.

I would love to know how SARU is going to manage our season from the South to fit into the NH.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Old Man wrote:The Kings got pushed into Super Rugby due to political pressure, and their future  regardless of financial mismanagement or poor performances are basically guaranteed in whatever competition they play due to that political pressure.

That is also the reason why I don’t want SA in the Pro14, we need our systems sorted from within.

And that can only be done through rebuilding the Currie Cup.

We obviously don’t have the revenue potential to build all 14 provinces into a full Currie Cup premier division.

The only interprovincial rugby SA should be involved in is European Champions Cup or a similar format in Super Rugby.

Over the last 25 years Currie Cup has taken a back seat to Super Rugby, if it gets fully involved into a Pro 14/18 then we are just repeating the same mistakes.

How can the franchisee keep going if it has no supporters though and they are already living on a shoe string budget. It was a huge mistake on our side to let this franchise in with the baggage that comes with it, hopefully both parties can cut their loses here and move on. I also would hate to see the European cup changed again, hopefully they can create a similar cup with the super rugby sides instead of joining the European one.

Providing a home for the Kings at the time, could be the goodwill that sways the decision to move the rest of top flight SARU into a Pro1x league structure. The Roos/Kiwis threw them out on the street but still kept the hand out for the money.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Old Man wrote:The Kings got pushed into Super Rugby due to political pressure, and their future  regardless of financial mismanagement or poor performances are basically guaranteed in whatever competition they play due to that political pressure.

That is also the reason why I don’t want SA in the Pro14, we need our systems sorted from within.

And that can only be done through rebuilding the Currie Cup.

We obviously don’t have the revenue potential to build all 14 provinces into a full Currie Cup premier division.

The only interprovincial rugby SA should be involved in is European Champions Cup or a similar format in Super Rugby.

Over the last 25 years Currie Cup has taken a back seat to Super Rugby, if it gets fully involved into a Pro 14/18 then we are just repeating the same mistakes.

How can the franchisee keep going if it has no supporters though and they are already living on a shoe string budget. It was a huge mistake on our side to let this franchise in with the baggage that comes with it, hopefully both parties can cut their loses here and move on. I also would hate to see the European cup changed again, hopefully they can create a similar cup with the super rugby sides instead of joining the European one.

Providing a home for the Kings at the time, could be the goodwill that sways the decision to move the rest of top flight SARU into a Pro1x league structure. The Roos/Kiwis threw them out on the street but still kept the hand out for the money.

SARU has announced this week that they have taken controlling interest in the Kings, a new board has been seelcted, perhaps having a hands on approach will improve the situation all round

Old Man wrote:I often wonder where these journalists get their information from. Jurie Roux says SARU is committed to SANZAAR, then you read of potential changes.

I don’t think we can take any lf this seriously.

I would love to know how SARU is going to manage our season from the South to fit into the NH.

According to a story in the NZ Herald, the role of SANZAAR may well be reduced to just managing the international tournament, with Super Rugby being scrapped.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12346317

LondonTiger wrote:

Old Man wrote:I often wonder where these journalists get their information from. Jurie Roux says SARU is committed to SANZAAR, then you read of potential changes.

I don’t think we can take any lf this seriously.

I would love to know how SARU is going to manage our season from the South to fit into the NH.

According to a story in the NZ Herald, the role of SANZAAR may well be reduced to just managing the international tournament, with Super Rugby being scrapped.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12346317

Yeah, read that, there are many stories, nobody knows what to believe anymore. The Covid19 has thrown a spanner in the works, we’ll hopefully have some concrete facts in the not too distant future.

It will be interesting what kind of feedback NZRU get from their mini tournament.  The deal with Barrett implies they are ready to let certain players play overseas and still play for the ABs.

I think what the NZRU do will have the biggest impact on the SARU.  The Pro14 and Europe is probably the backup.

My guesses:

Super Rugby to be scrapped.
Australasia tourney to be created.
Ideal size for PRO14 is PRO16 so 4 SARU teams join with Cheethas/Kings likely dropped and moved to Currie Cup revamp
SARU to become shareholders in PRO16 after period of time once CVC investment payments concluded.
Heineken Cup to be reduced in participants and rounds and Challenge Cup expanded with more teams and smaller pools.

Pot Hale wrote:My guesses:

Super Rugby to be scrapped.
Australasia tourney to be created.
Ideal size for PRO14 is PRO16 so 4 SARU teams join with Cheethas/Kings likely dropped and moved to Currie Cup revamp
SARU to become shareholders in PRO16 after period of time once CVC investment payments concluded.
Heineken Cup to be reduced in participants and rounds and Challenge Cup expanded with more teams and smaller pools.

That may prove to be a reasonable guess.

There is also the option of some pacific island involvement in the Australasia tourney and the Japanese league is also big enough and rich enough to stand on its own two feet.

This may well suit all the major rugby countries except Argentina, it is not clear where they might fit in and they should be fitted in somewhere.

Pot Hale wrote:My guesses:

Super Rugby to be scrapped.
Australasia tourney to be created.
Ideal size for PRO14 is PRO16 so 4 SARU teams join with Cheethas/Kings likely dropped and moved to Currie Cup revamp
SARU to become shareholders in PRO16 after period of time once CVC investment payments concluded.
Heineken Cup to be reduced in participants and rounds and Challenge Cup expanded with more teams and smaller pools.

my hope is instead of joining the Pro14-18, we build currie cup to the same stature as premiership and top 14

One of the big issues the Pro14 currently has a problem with in my eyes is that the home and away legs are diluting the tournament. If you look at a side like Leinster for example they tend to win virtually all home fixtures, to the point where sides go there already knowing they will probably lose and field second or third string sides with a view to keeping their stars available for home leg matches as they see those as either must win games or more likely to be won matches.

If South African sides do join, and im not convinced pro 14 will allow 6 south african sides, what is the best format moving forward. I would love to see us move to a 1 leg league. Home and away aspects alternating each year. So Leinster for exmple would play 2 SA sides home and 2 away each year. The reason I think this would make a great change is that each team with aspirations to win the league would have to play their best players each week. That for me would recreate a mentalitly throughout the season with every game being of vital importance.

Sadly I think however the powers that be will more than likely introduce a conference system which if super rugby has shown us wont help engroccing fans.

Personally I would only invite 4 SA sides. I'd probably grab the Jaguares as well and maybe a georgian side and turn that into the pro 18. 17 games with a top 8 qualifer knock out to determine champions (so an additional 3 games for the qualifiers). Sometimes having less games will increase the profile and potential viewing audiences. It wont happen though in part because Welsh and Irish sides are desperate to keep home and away local derbies in place. I think this will be short sighted though.

Fully agree on one leg only with alternating years for home fixtures.

Season need to be shorter though, SA needs to fit a Currie Cup ten week program in there as well.

18 teams are too many

Pro 14 already plays 19 games in the base season. That change would see them reduce games down to 17.

The currie cup is semi pro league at best. Much like local leagues it makes little difference when this is played.

In truth the South African sides will need to get used to longer seasons especially if they can nogitiate their way into the European Comps. Thats how it works in Europe.

I would however like to see the Pro14 played from after the 6 nations to like October. It would be great if they could play all of the European games in October-Nov. That way International teams could get access to their players once they come off their off season breaks and have plenty of time to get some pre-tours in before a 6 nations start.

Currie Cup players are contracted professionally

current financial model in SA

Old Man wrote:Currie Cup players are contracted professionally

Yes - it's the same as what happens at semi pro level in England & Wales as well. Teams in the Welsh Premiership and English Championship still sign up to Salaries and contracts.

The reason why I deem the Currie Cup as semi pro as often the difference between semi pro and fully professional setups largly differ in the capacity of their backroom staff. Pro sides will often have fully paid coaches, physios, scouts, club staff etc. Semi Pro teams usually have part time staff and volenteers in that regard.

Additionally I would add that the pay banding for this group of players is also far below what the pay bands are for their fully professional teams. So while even if we both agree that paying a player a full time wage is the definition of professionalism, it does in no way quantify the quality either of the league or the player. I would argue Currie Cup sits way below the standards of Super Rugby,Top14, Aviva Prem & Pro14. For that reason I tend to label that standard of rugby as semi pro (not quite up to professional standards).

The only reason Currie Cup Premier division sits below Super Rugby is because the Super rugby players don’t play in Currie Cup, very few do.

If Currie Cup takes the place of Super Rugby then those players will feature for their Currie Cup teams.

Then from there the top Currie Cup teams will play in Pro14/super rugby.

The point I am tryin to make is, Instead of having Currie Cup and Super Rugby teams is wasted.