The summer of cricket 2020

First topic message reminder :

Great ton from Morgan. Came in at 44/3 - now victory looks assured for England after this partnership.

(Spoiler: It wasn't.)

Gooseberry wrote:Quite Olly. Really pleased Pope managed to make close and is looking in good nick. It'll take a minor miracle for England to get a score good enough to keep them in with a realistic chance in the game. The way things moved on after lunch the draw is pretty unlikely.
Proper test match pitch, plenty in it for quicks medium pacers and spinners. England just being outplayed in every facet so far despite looking on top both mornings.  

Best we can probably realistically hope for is to get within sort of 50-70 runs of them, turn them over cheaply in the second innings to leave ourselves a chase of 230-250ish, which while tough, isn’t insurmountable.

Long old way, and much better performances, for that CaledonianCraig roadmap to play out though...

Pope really needs to turn this start into a big score, if he does that we won't be far away but I don't hold out much hope.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Let’s hope Pope and Buttler do the business as they did in the last test...

Can talk about the balance of the side all we like, if the top four scores 26 runs between them in the first innings, not gonna win many test matches!

Hi Olly - only saw a small bit of today's play but for the second evening running your end of play conclusion seems bang on the money.

Not going to concede the game at this still reasonably early stage but it doesn't look good for sure. As well as Pope and Buttler hopefully doing the business as you say, we're probably going to need a few twenties and thirties from the bowlers. Any reliance on a tail to get even somewhere around parity is a real worry.

At least Pope is still there. Class act.

Gonna have to bat last on a pitch that will take spin so need 400+ realistically here which looks somewhat unlikely

I think chasing anything above 150 would be difficult, but not impossible, on a day four/five wicket. Anything that's in the 200+ region I think we can forget about, barring Stokes delivering yet more heroics.

Essentially, England need a minimum of 300 in this innings to have any hope, which will require Pope to make a Masood-like contribution to his team, followed by rolling out Pakistan for around 75-150 in the second innings. That 75-150 in itself looks unlikely. I know Pakistan have sent over some dodgy batting line-ups in the past, especially 2010 (not the only thing that was dodgy that year), but this one is very solid and capable.

To be honest, forget the 300, I'm more prepared to believe the other possibility. That of a couple of quick wickets in the morning leaving England 104/6 and all remaining prayers relying on Broad to replicate his sole test century, which happened ten years ago this month.

Long story short, I'm pessimistic about England's prospects and I'm off to put the family silver on Pakistan to win at 4/6.

Incidentally, I listened to Michael Vaughan earlier (not recommended) and he claimed that England are miles off being world number one in this format. I never would have guessed, but this is headline news according to the BBC.

Soul Requiem wrote:Pope really needs to turn this start into a big score, if he does that we won't be far away but I don't hold out much hope.

To do that he needs other players to hang around. Sadly Leach wasn't selected

I guess England potentially aren't as good as we thought they might be. Certainly not terrible, but a middle of the pack side, as a ranking of 4 would suggest. With hindsight, the Windies were desperately poor and should have been despatched 3-0. Pakistan are many, many notches up in terms of a challenge

Morning all,

Been reading the comments section on the BBC. Lots of negativity towards the England team. I not sure I agree with any of them to be honest. Pakistan's total was due pretty much to one batsman with 2 other decent knocks to assist. England's top order failed due to some extremely good bowling, not great for England but it does happen. Pope is in form and is very much capable of getting a decent score and he will hopefully be assisted by a couple of handy lower order knocks.

I still see very little between the sides if I may be honest and England are in no way out of this test match.

-Shaan Masood blossomed after many seasons of perseverance by selectors to play the inning of his life...leaving Pak about 70 odd above par. That 100+partnership worth gold.

Not having Stokes hurt Eng when Pak was on roll....Anderson looks one notch below his best, lacking peak rythm, archer didn't try as hard as Stokes does....and the spinner didn't threaten anyone.

-now Eng need a lead of 50+ to be at par in the game. Pak has quality and depth n Seam deptt was so evident ....and that is making a lead look difficult for Eng.
-Even when ball gets old Pak has two spinners and the look of 90mph Waqarsue action Naseem indicates he can extract reverse as does Afridi.

Eng bat deeper than Pak...and their lower order has to stand up yet again.
Pope is developing into a gem from what i have seen in last few innings
His backfoot play is profoundly compact.
And his ability to roll the wrists and pull in front of square is as good as Kohli's. He should do exceedingly well on hard bouncy Australian pitches.
Uphill battle for Eng but draw is not beyond the realms of possible

VTR wrote:I guess England potentially aren't as good as we thought they might be. Certainly not terrible, but a middle of the pack side, as a ranking of 4 would suggest. With hindsight, the Windies were desperately poor and should have been despatched 3-0. Pakistan are many, many notches up in terms of a challenge

I think it's consistency that's the issue, if Sibley and Burns eat up some overs then having Stokes at four isn't an issue but if they're both gone early he's then susceptible to the new ball and that shot yesterday was diabolical, going that hard at a ball hitting the top of off stump isn't good enough. The bowling unit cannot carry on carrying two older bowlers who seemingly struggle to perform throughout the day, you can get away with having one of them in the side but not two, i'd potentially bring Curran into the side now and rotate Broad and Anderson, that might seem a bit harsh but it's the reality.

KP_fan wrote:-Shaan Masood blossomed after many seasons of perseverance  by selectors to play the inning of his life...leaving Pak about  70 odd above par. That 100+partnership worth gold.

Not having Stokes hurt Eng when Pak was on roll....Anderson looks one notch below his best, lacking peak rythm, archer didn't try as hard as Stokes does....and the spinner didn't threaten anyone.

-now Eng need a lead of 50+ to be at par in the game. Pak has quality and depth n Seam deptt was so evident ....and that is making a lead look difficult for Eng.
-Even when ball gets old Pak has two spinners and the look of 90mph Waqarsue action Naseem indicates he can extract reverse as does Afridi.

Eng bat deeper than Pak...and their lower order has to stand up yet again.
Pope is developing into a gem from what i have seen in last few innings
His backfoot play is profoundly compact.
And his ability to roll the wrists and pull in front of square is as good as Kohli's. He should do exceedingly well on hard bouncy Australian pitches.
Uphill battle for Eng but draw is not beyond  the realms of possible  

Stokes bowling likely wouldve meant woakes dropped for a batsman, so they might well have had an even harder time bowling pakistan out with Crawley to shore up the batting ..who's average is pretty much the same as woakes', so not really likely to have added much to the position they are in batting either!

Unless theres more rain, which isn't forecast, id see the win for england about as likely as the draw. The way the pitch is falling apart and neither team being stacked toward batting make it very unlikely this will last five days. Batting through to tea today would be a hell of an achievement for england, then it comes down to who has the worst collapse or best dashing 50 or most drops by Buttler second time around.
Masoods innings was a bit of a freak with the amount of balls that beat him and a number of close calls. His shots and running were very good but he still rode his luck. Its really hard to see anyone else surviving anywhere near as long he did regardless of how well they bat unless one sides bowling falls apart.

Have been amusing myself reading the BBC HYS on this...as expected , has gone into hyperdrive

Suddenly the England pace bowling group recently hailed as the Best for Decades or Possibly Ever are a bunch of overrated/over the hill non performers ; and the solid opening pair are county standard hacks... Most of the abuse is directed at Root and Buttler but pretty well everyone comes in for their share. One chap earnestly entered his team as the solution with Denly back as the saviour and batting down to seven...unaccountably he left out Pope...

Can have a laugh. But I do think we all (even us sensible erudite chaps on here) tend to get a bit overexcited after one good or bad day of cricket. Michael Vaughan suddenly noticing that England are a fair way off the number one spot at the moment doesn't seem like a revelation so the fact that the team was outplayed yesterday by a well prepared and lively Pakistan outfit shouldn't really have come as a total shock.

I must admit I had expected better from England , as I imagined their having already played three Tests would have given them an edge over a Pakistan team coming in "cold". However , on reflection , I now wonder if the reverse might be true : that the tourists are mentally fresher , while the England players are perhaps a little weary of several weeks encased in their "bubble" ?

Not that it matters : it is what it is ; and England now find themselves in a precarious position and will do well to extricate themselves from it - unless the Manchester weather comes to their aid. It isn't hopeless , of course : the two at the crease can bat ; Woakes - despite his recent lack of runs - is competent enough to have a Test century to his credit (as does Broad !) and Bess has already shown ability with the bat. Get up around the Pakistan total and anything could happen afterwards - we have already seen this Pakistan side has a long tail , and several of their top bats did not impress any more than England's so they are hardly impregnable.

Chasing over 150 in the forth innings might be daunting. Or it might not : sometimes the pitch doesn't deteriorate as much as expected - in fact I'd say neither of the ones prepared for the West Indies series here did , although that may be partly due to the damp weather. Just because England lost 3/12 once doesn't mean it will automatically happen again.

Even if Pakistan do win this match - as is quite likely from this position - it doesn't follow they will sweep England away in the series. England are a team with perhaps more flaws than some of their recent results (SA , West Indies) might suggest ; but they are far from rubbish. They were poor yesterday ; they will know that. And they are likely (based on recent records) to bounce back from this low point...whether that will enable them to overcome this admirable Pakistan side remains to be seen. But I think it will be worth watching...

Or the short version :Don't Panic

Soul Requiem wrote:

VTR wrote:I guess England potentially aren't as good as we thought they might be. Certainly not terrible, but a middle of the pack side, as a ranking of 4 would suggest. With hindsight, the Windies were desperately poor and should have been despatched 3-0. Pakistan are many, many notches up in terms of a challenge

I think it's consistency that's the issue, if Sibley and Burns eat up some overs then having Stokes at four isn't an issue but if they're both gone early he's then susceptible to the new ball and that shot yesterday was diabolical, going that hard at a ball hitting the top of off stump isn't good enough. The bowling unit cannot carry on carrying two older bowlers who seemingly struggle to perform throughout the day, you can get away with having one of them in the side but not two, i'd potentially bring Curran into the side now and rotate Broad and Anderson, that might seem a bit harsh but it's the reality.

I'm not sure that Broad struggled to last through the day, he bowled 22.5 overs in the innings, more than anyone else. and took the last wicket.
One of them probably will get rested for the next test though.
Won't be Curran coming in though, it'll be a batsman.

Let's face it everyone is going to struggle against the new ball when there's bags of movement and you're facing a legit left arm / right arm quick combination and the best wobbler to have played tests in the modern era.

Englands openers haven't been that consistent but when you look at the places and bowlers they've faced in the last three series its a hell of a step up from the last few years. Even cook struggled in england for most of his career.

We can go round in circles on the extra batsman issue as well. But without stokes bowling they have a stark choice of either having to bowl Bess Root even more than they did first innings, having no spinner at all (if they'd bowled second people would be calling for the selectors to be sacked!) , making Pope or Burns keep and dropping Buttler ( I guess there's a few on here who would support that tbf!) Or picking the side they did and trusting their top 4 to dig in a bit more than they did.

alfie echo your sentiments. I think everyone's a bit surprised by how well drilled and sharp pakistan look in all departments. It really shows a fundamental change in the way their tours are run and a break from the days of senior batsmen making cornwall look like an athelete and the main focus being on betting scams and ball tampering.
The preparation appears to have been really good, its rare to see a team turn up and have a genuine plan for batting in England. The quick running was clearly a well drilled piece of that.
There weren't many signs from the warm ups that the batsmen were in much nick, although in hindsight maybe that shouldve been a warning about their bowlers!

Soul Requiem wrote:

VTR wrote:I guess England potentially aren't as good as we thought they might be. Certainly not terrible, but a middle of the pack side, as a ranking of 4 would suggest. With hindsight, the Windies were desperately poor and should have been despatched 3-0. Pakistan are many, many notches up in terms of a challenge

I think it's consistency that's the issue, if Sibley and Burns eat up some overs then having Stokes at four isn't an issue but if they're both gone early he's then susceptible to the new ball and that shot yesterday was diabolical, going that hard at a ball hitting the top of off stump isn't good enough. The bowling unit cannot carry on carrying two older bowlers who seemingly struggle to perform throughout the day, you can get away with having one of them in the side but not two, i'd potentially bring Curran into the side now and rotate Broad and Anderson, that might seem a bit harsh but it's the reality.

Yep - and we'll get that with a developing side. We'd all love for the days of Cook/Strauss/Trott/KP/Bell/Collingwood/Prior, supplemented by Broad/Swann/Anderson and basically never losing a test match for two years - but those sides don't come around often!

Alfie's post summed it up nicely - would expect the series to swing back and forth throughout. Pakistan, like us, are prone to a collapse and hot/cold sessions. Should make for good viewing!

Today is Buttler's day. Either the time he rescues his test career with a swashbuckling innings which revives England, or he gets out cheaply again and it's (surely) the final curtain.

Hot and dry today in Manchester, which is odd. Should be plenty of sunshine.

He also kept like a bag of spanners, key drops that cost about a hundred runs. Though I think he will get the series. Hopefully Stokes is bowling in the next Test and he can drop down to 7. Today could be interesting, I don't fancy Woakes against this bowling attack!

I have this sinking feeling that Buttler will be out early today caught trying to paddle sweep...

A lot rests on Pope but i have every belief in him as he seems perfect for the test arena.

eirebilly wrote:I have this sinking feeling that Buttler will be out early today caught trying to paddle sweep...

A lot rests on Pope but i have every belief in him as he seems perfect for the test arena.

Hi Billy - absolutely agree about Pope being perfect for the test arena. Versatile and intelligent cricketer. I think there's a very good chance he'll captain the test side in years to come.

Hi Guildord, Thats a big call for Pope to captain. He does appear to have the right temperament.

Hi again Billy - yes, it is a big call about Pope and one I would normally shy away from. Clearly, an awful lot can happen and things can go wrong. Therefore, nothing is guaranteed. However, he's a really smart and composed individual both on and off the field which gives him a good chance of the captaincy in the future. Heard him speak at the Oval just before the Lockdown about England's last tour and his experience at the top level - very impressive, particularly for such a young person.

Aside from all the qualities mentioned about Pope above - the simple fact is if you are the best batsman in the side you will get the captaincy sooner or later! Root, Cook, Strauss, KP, Vaughan

guildfordbat wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I have this sinking feeling that Buttler will be out early today caught trying to paddle sweep...

A lot rests on Pope but i have every belief in him as he seems perfect for the test arena.

Hi Billy - absolutely agree about Pope being perfect for the test arena. Versatile and intelligent cricketer. I think there's a very good chance he'll captain the test side in years to come.

Oh don't wish that on him just yet Guildford ! Bit of an albatross round a young batsman's neck , the captaincy. Root seems to be struggling a bit with it , though I think that might also have a bit to do with being forced back up to number three.

Yeah OK I know you mean a way down the track

Couple of close things already this morning but at least they're both still there...

Buttler looks completely devoid of ideas out there this morning...

JDizzle wrote:Aside from all the qualities mentioned about Pope above - the simple fact is if you are the best batsman in the side you will get the captaincy sooner or later! Root, Cook, Strauss, KP, Vaughan

It seems to fail more often than not, Strauss and Vaughan were both good captains so made up for their lowering returns but the others range from awful to poor so the resultant dip in form is more pronounced.

Great first hour of test cricket, which makes the sport so brilliant. Fantastic control from the Pakistani seamers; solid resistance from the two English batters.

Will be spin soon.

What an hour! No wickets, hardly any runs but such a battle - competitive and enthralling. Brilliant Test cricket.

Just 19 scored and 10 of those were extras (8 byes, 2 no balls). The two bowlers must need a break very soon. I do wonder though if Pope and Buttler can maintain their concentration.

eirebilly wrote:Buttler looks completely devoid of ideas out there this morning...

Well he's totally focused on defence so far...which makes sense really , given his limitations against good pace bowling . Although Ed Smith - and others - have often rattled on about his potential to play decisive attacking hands (based on a - probably optimistic- belief he can reproduce his white ball innings in the Test arena) , I would suggest his best innings for England since his recall have actually been ones where he has played cautiously , at least for the early part ; before playing a few more shots as it went on. Basically solid against type efforts. Like the last match against West Indies - where he was also paired with the more "busy" Pope.

Needs to go on , of course. But I think a good first hour for him.

I just see that spin will be the downfall for Buttler today alfie, he will get frustrated and try a silly shot and hole out.

The no ball being called by the third umpire working well - thank god it's finally been brought in

Can't really criticise Buttler for hanging around but with Pope now gone it's game over anyway.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The no ball being called by the third umpire working well - thank god it's finally been brought in

Probably true. Though that last one was a bit tight ! Looked a lot like some of those deemed "benefit of the doubt to the bowler" when checking after a wicket.

Oh dear...Pope gone ! Have to say great bowling from Naseem

Trouble.

That was a brute of a delivery!

Good delivery and an even better take. Like watching Naseem Shah bowl - reminds me a lot of Shoaib Akhtar.

Into the bowlers now, I guess.

So 200 behind with virtually no batting to come. Not looking great, not that it ever was

Hope Sir Christopher is ready to get back to his best with the bat...tough time to come in with these fellows bowling so well.

That said , the wicket came as something of a surprise. Was just starting to look as if they'd weathered the storm and runs starting to flow...or at least trickle faster. Despite Eirebilly's fears for Buttler against Yasir , I thought they might have been well placed to attack the spinner when he came on.
Less comfortable with that now.

At least they've saved the follow on

Getting out like that is no shame, Pope has been excellent.

Really need Buttler to stick around now, would love to see him pull out a score. I do not rate him as a test batter but i truly hope he does well here now.

I'm conflicted on Buttler here, I want him to do well for the sake of the team but at the same time I want him to fail for the sake of getting Foakes into the side.

It pains me to say it, but now is the time to discuss the elephant in the room, ie the captain. Joe Root may be the best batsman in the side but he is no captain.
I'm probably older than most of us on this discussion board so have had the benefit of seeing some truly great captains; captains who made a difference, who influenced games, brought out the best in their teams, knew what changes were required on the field - you know what I mean.
From an England point of view can we honestly say that Joe Root can be compared to Ray Illingworth, Tony Greig, Mike Brearley, Mike Gatting, Michael Vaughan, Nasser Hussain and Andrew Strauss.
These were outstanding captains, generally the teams were better than the sum of the parts. Matches didn't just drift along, things were happening and you always felt that the captain was trying something to control events.
I may be unfair to Joe Root by comparing him to great captains but I feel that he isn't in control, isn't trying to influence the game. In short, he's just not got it.
Sadly, we may be in a period where there are no outstanding candidates.

I think that Root is doing well as a Captain myself. Sure he makes mistakes but he makes a lot of good decisions as well.

Just what we needed - a bit of rain on the wicket...

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I have this sinking feeling that Buttler will be out early today caught trying to paddle sweep...

A lot rests on Pope but i have every belief in him as he seems perfect for the test arena.

Hi Billy - absolutely agree about Pope being perfect for the test arena. Versatile and intelligent cricketer. I think there's a very good chance he'll captain the test side in years to come.

Oh don't wish that on him just yet Guildford !  Bit of an albatross round a young batsman's neck , the captaincy. Root seems to be struggling a bit with it , though I think that might also have a bit to do with being forced back up to number three.

Yeah OK I know you mean a way down the track

Couple of close things already this morning but at least they're both still there...

Hi Alfie - yeah, your wording now in bold would have pretty much been my response. Just to emphasise, Pope is still only 22. If all goes to plan (and I accept things often don't!), he should be around and playing Test cricket for the next dozen years or so. Not only actually playing but almost certainly learning as well.

Cracker of a delivery from Naseem to get him after the break. Still not quite sure how Shadab took it. His arms and legs seemed all tangled up!

Feel we are going to need a ''Sir'' Chris performance today.

Meanwhile, swelteringly hot watching here as they go off for rain ...

eirebilly wrote:I think that Root is doing well as a Captain myself. Sure he makes mistakes but he makes a lot of good decisions as well.

Really?

Soul Requiem wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I think that Root is doing well as a Captain myself. Sure he makes mistakes but he makes a lot of good decisions as well.

Really?

I do, i think that although he tends to er on the side of caution a little too much for my liking, i think he is the right man for the job right now. Who else in the England team could be captain right now?

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm conflicted on Buttler here, I want him to do well for the sake of the team but at the same time I want him to fail for the sake of getting Foakes into the side.

Haha . I know what you mean , Soul. But I doubt they'd change to Foakes anyway , in the middle of a series. If they really rated him would he not have come in at the start of the summer , given the barren winter batting record that Jos had ?
The real problem is this idea that Buttler has to play , regardless. If he can justify a top six spot , fine.(At one time it looked as if he might : but then he had a few bad games and they immediately shuffled him back to seven , even though he was supposed to be a specialist batsman.) But then he was essentially awarded the gloves just to keep him in the team. It seems Ed Smith wants to structure the team around him , no matter what all the shuffling around does to the players who get messed around in the process. I honestly do not see that he brings enough to the team to justify this privileged status.
Doesn't make him a poor player. But I'm not sure how long they can wait for him to produce the great innings they seem to expect , rather than the odd useful thirty/forty or so.

Maybe today ? We can hope...

On the subject of the captaincy...

For me it's quite obvious. Stokes would be the logical choice. Half a (decent) brain, leads by example, fighting spirit... a pale ginger with tattoos.
Before everyone jumps on me and says that would be too much for him... don't forget he's a plucky Kiwi-born lad too.
He'd take it in his stride I'm sure. He'd thrive on the extra added responsibility no doubt. Especially in Australia in 2021-22

Then in about 4-5 years or so... your man Ollie Pope, Guildford. It's written all over him. He certainly looks more than capable to lead England in the future.(Did you have your electrolytes this morning? Keep cool champ.)  

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm conflicted on Buttler here, I want him to do well for the sake of the team but at the same time I want him to fail for the sake of getting Foakes into the side.

Hi Soul - maybe 200 in this dig to set up a win and then a bruised little finger on the last day to allow Foakes in.

Very decent session that for England and for test cricket. Mind you, England had a pretty decent morning yesterday, and it all went downhill from there.

Just got to keep chipping away at that lead. See if they can get it down to two digits.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:It pains me to say it, but now is the time to discuss the elephant in the room, ie the captain. Joe Root may be the best batsman in the side but he is no captain.
I'm probably older than most of us on this discussion board so have had the benefit of seeing some truly great captains; captains who made a difference, who influenced games, brought out the best in their teams, knew what changes were required on the field - you know what I mean.
From an England point of view can we honestly say that Joe Root can be compared to Ray Illingworth, Tony Greig, Mike Brearley, Mike Gatting, Michael Vaughan, Nasser Hussain and Andrew Strauss.
These were outstanding captains, generally the teams were better than the sum of the parts. Matches didn't just drift along, things were happening and you always felt that the captain was trying something to control events.
I may be unfair to Joe Root by comparing him to great captains but I feel that he isn't in control, isn't trying to influence the game. In short, he's just not got it.
Sadly, we may be in a period where there are no outstanding candidates.

Personally think this might be a tad harsh - not saying Root is near the level of a Strauss/McCullum, but I don't think he's a horrible captain either. Would put him in the average category, pretty similar to someone like Kohli - in that they've essentially been given it because they're the best batsman, and have had to learn on the job (I don't think Root did much captaincy at Yorkshire?).
As you say though, no other candidates at the moment anyways - I don't want Stokes anywhere near it personally, he has enough on his plate!

As for the game, good session for England, shame Pope got that brute...but Pakistan did deserve a wicket (well more than that really!). Hopefully we don't fold like a pack of cards after lunch, if we can still be batting after tea, we'd just be approaching being back in the game. Long way to go yet though!

Finally - would like to see Archer and Broad come out swinging. They aren't going to last long against this seam attack blocking, just not good enough, but if they can swing a couple away early, Pakistan might go a bit mental like West Indies did to Broad last test...

Pal Joey wrote:On the subject of the captaincy...

For me it's quite obvious. Stokes would be the logical choice. Half a (decent) brain, leads by example, fighting spirit... a pale ginger with tattoos.
Before everyone jumps on me and says that would be too much for him... don't forget he's a plucky Kiwi-born lad too.
He'd take it in his stride I'm sure. He'd thrive on the extra added responsibility no doubt. Especially in Australia in 2021-22

Then in about 4-5 years or so... your man Ollie Pope, Guildford. It's written all over him. He certainly looks more than capable to lead England in the future.(Did you have your electrolytes this morning? Keep cool champ.)  

Cheers, Joey.

As you ask, to set me up for the first session - a couple of slices of real (not plastic) ham with a fried egg and toast early on following an even earlier stroll to the papershop. Just about beat the sun and the heat. Windows open and curtains drawn now at Bat Towers.

Not sure about Stokes and the captaincy. As a player, there are similarities with Botham and we all know what a hash he made of leading the side. There again if Stokes has ''half a (decent) brain'', that's far more than the oafish Botham has ever had. Botham thrived on massive natural ability which benefitted him and the teams he played in but was never captaincy material.

I'll comment separately on eyetoldyouso's post on England captains of yesteryear.