England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

I don't see comparisons with swinging conditions in England at all, that is environmental rather than pitch preparation.

At the end of the day a test wicket is meant to last five days. We've had 1.5 days and the wicket is in pieces. That's poor preparation.

Duty281 wrote:At the end of the day a test wicket is meant to last five days. We've had 1.5 days and the wicket is in pieces. That's poor preparation.

I must’ve missed where it says that in the rules

Jack Leach doing a job with the bat...

Must fancy another bowl on this

Six more needed...

Yes, India have played better but this is a horrible, horrible wicket.

In the first test, we went into day 5 with all 4 results possible, however unlikely an India win, all results were on the card. Perfect test match wicket. This pitch broke down on the first morning! Before lunch. It's a shocker.

Talking of horrible - great catch from Pope aside, Pant is a horrible wicket keeper. Exciting batter but horrible with the gloves. Makes one appreciate the artisty in someone like Foakes.

Foakes batting well, and Leach’s new advance down the wicket and smack the spinners over the top one of my favourite new shots

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:At the end of the day a test wicket is meant to last five days. We've had 1.5 days and the wicket is in pieces. That's poor preparation.

I must’ve missed where it says that in the rules

It's not a specific law, as far as I'm aware, but if you're playing a five-day game it stands to reason that the pitch should last those five days.

If every pitch was like this one test cricket would have died a death a while ago.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Yes, India have played better but this is a horrible, horrible wicket.

In the first test, we went into day 5 with all 4 results possible, however unlikely an India win, all results were on the card. Perfect test match wicket. This pitch broke down on the first morning! Before lunch. It's a shocker.

Talking of horrible - great catch from Pope aside, Pant is a horrible wicket keeper. Exciting batter but horrible with the gloves. Makes one appreciate the artisty in someone like Foakes.

Spot on.

This is actually covered by law 2.7, for the first 30 overs of this innings I myself would say this is an unreasonable pitch to be playing on. This is ultimately no different to Somerset preparing spinning pitches that saw them twice docked points albeit suspended the first time.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Talking of horrible - great catch from Pope aside, Pant is a horrible wicket keeper. Exciting batter but horrible with the gloves. Makes one appreciate the artisty in someone like Foakes.

And another one! Shut up, Tino.

Follow on now out of the question. Well done these two...

Now to bat as long as they can and start planning to bowl much better second time around.

Only postponing the inevitable , I guess. But still good to see they've not thrown it away.

Leach gone now...another great catch for Pant.

Thought he couldn't keep...making that a nonsense today

Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:At the end of the day a test wicket is meant to last five days. We've had 1.5 days and the wicket is in pieces. That's poor preparation.

I must’ve missed where it says that in the rules

Doesn't specifically but the ICC will rate the pitch to see if it matches playing conditions standards. The broadcasters etc are probably the big definers of the unofficial "rule" that games ideally should go into day 5 but end in results more often than not. The pitch needs to be playable on day 5 even if theres zero chance of the test lasting that long.

England of course can hardly hold themselves up as hard done by on tough pitches, even losing a day plus to rain in most of the tests this "summer" we got results.

Whilst this is defiantly on the extreme end of spinning pitches it could have backfired on India had they lost the toss and England got the better of the batting conditions. All things equal had it been a more moderate typical Indian pitch you'd still fancy them to win batting first.

Have to look to Englands poor batting (bar Root) as the reason England are struggling rather than just the pitch. Its certainly not helped and exaggerated the gap between the teams, but Indian have better batsmen in these conditions (bar Root) and considerably better bowlers. India batting first and a crumbling pitch just takes away any chance England had of repeating the shock result last time out.

Goose nails it there , I think.

134 all out. Not good.

Ben Foakes, take a bow. It was him that managed to get England over the line and avoid the follow on.

All India and they should win at a canter but Foakes can be very proud.

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

I would actually say that Foakes is a better test batsman myself. Not close to Buttler in ODI or T20 but a better test batsman. Foakes' glove work is vastly superior as you say.

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

All out with a deficit of 195 removes the follow on discussions and makes the equation pretty simple. England's extremely faint hope is rolling India for a similarly low score then batting very, very well following the Indian first innings road map of not losing the whole top order to the harder ball that really grips and spits out this pitch.

I'd probably open with two spinners as it's the only route I see to getting India out for a really low score.

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

Buttler hasn't proved that either and his average is bolstered playing the subcontinent teams

Australia- 20.5
South Africa- 16.4

Sri Lanka- 47.6
India- 42
Pakistan- 51

India should be concerned at the lack of batting skills beyond no.6
Axar no where close in skills to Washington
Nevertheless Axar immediate showed what Nadeem lacked and that he could indeed be a replacement for Jadeja on spinning wickets atleast

That kuldeep failed to get wickets nor looked threatening means Sundar could replace him in next game
Or if pitch is deemed seaming under lights Pandya might be the replacement
Siraj needs to bump up his speed else he will drop from reckoning when umesh and shami are back.

Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker
From the batting side Foakes looked like on a different planet.
How do Eng ever leave him out?
He can play as a pure batsman also ahead of dibbly dobly and sibleys who were all caught like rabbits in headlight

Pant''s keeping has improved under confidence of his improved batting
PS* Rohit made 25%more runs than Eng,

Spectacular pull from Rohit. That's gone flat for 6 in the third over on this track. When he gets it right Rohit is incredible to watch.

KP_fan wrote:Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker

Yes, I'm slightly concerned that Silverwood and co will see past the rubbish he bowled and only focus on the cheap wickets he picked up. Anyway, it's likely to be only one spinner (Leach) for the pink-ball test - the test that will have the most favourable conditions for England.

I know this might be controversial, but isn’t it the case that actually both Buttler and Foakes are quite good at the cricket...and we should like both...
Really for as promising as his first game was, Lawrence has never looked the bat either of those two are in these conditions. England probably missed a trick by not playing both throughout the time Buttler was with the squad

Meanwhile, Rohit continues to extend his personal lead over England

There's a case to be made that Jennings should probably have been selected for the six matches, small sample of five matches but he has previously shown an ability to score on the subcontinent. Averages over 44.

The pitch looking a lot less unplayable all of a sudden.

Soul Requiem wrote:There's a case to be made that Jennings should probably have been selected for the six matches, small sample of five matches but he has previously shown an ability to score on the subcontinent. Averages over 44.

There is definitely a case to be made of some “horses for courses” selections like that for batsmen. Jennings in the subcontinent an example, there’s maybe a case for taking Malan to Australia next winter in the squad on the back of his good scoring on the bouncier wickets across both his test and t20i career. But that’s a conversation for down the line!

Rohit continuing where he left off so far, some beautiful shots

Anyone suggesting this pitch isn't as bad as made out needs to revisit Moeen bowling Kohli on the first morning of the test match

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker

Yes, I'm slightly concerned that Silverwood and co will see past the rubbish he bowled and only focus on the cheap wickets he picked up. Anyway, it's likely to be only one spinner (Leach) for the pink-ball test - the test that will have the most favourable conditions for England.

Yeah the rubbish he bowls  to get wickets is better than the rubbish Bess bowls to get his wickets

Over my years of watching spinners
On my scale of 100 for of spinners if
Saqlainwas 90
Ashwin  is around 80,  Swann at 70, Lyon at 60, as a reference then Moeen would be around 35 to 40
And Bess 20

What gets Moeen all those points is that he is able to flight and get a loop and also has one that goes straight which is hard to pick when he gets his loop going.
That he doesn't get his loop going consistently is why he is at a score of 35 and not 60

Re:T3 only the ball will be pink but he underlying pitch still the dry abrasive and could be a similar dust bowl
So 2 spinners is a must.....I would get Woakes in for Lawrence

Soul Requiem wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

Buttler hasn't proved that either and his average is bolstered playing the subcontinent teams

Australia- 20.5
South Africa- 16.4

Sri Lanka- 47.6
India- 42
Pakistan- 51

Buttler’s two hundreds came in the UK against sub continent team with strong seams attacks in those conditions. Afridi, Abbas, Sharma, Bumrah etc Whereas Foakes runs have come in the sub continent vs spin and look poor in pace friendly conditions, albeit a small sample.

At the end of the day, I do agree with Olly. They are both quite good and which one they pick isn’t the biggest decider as to whether they turn themselves into a top Test side or not.

These are the cheapest runs any batsmen will score in test cricket...that Rohit and co will score here
Team 200+ on a square turning pitch where even 150 is ungettabble

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

It is really too soon to say. Foakes has had a handful of innings so far...has had great early success against spin , not so much in a couple of games in West Indies. We need to see more.

At the same time , Buttler doesn't have much of a record against good pace bowling. His good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition ; and against Australia and South Africa he's been pretty poor.

Anyway , Foakes has a couple more games now. Let's see what happens.

Ha ...as I type , Foakes misses a stumping We are none of us infallible...

Foakes let's down Ali whose flight yet again good enuf to beat some one like Rohit in super touch

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

It is really too soon to say. Foakes has had a handful of innings so far...has had great early success against spin , not so much in a couple of games in West Indies.  We need to see more.

At the same time , Buttler doesn't have much of a record against good pace bowling. His good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition ; and against Australia and South Africa he's been pretty poor.  

Anyway , Foakes has a couple more games now. Let's see what happens.

Ha ...as I type , Foakes misses a stumping   We are none of us infallible...

Yeah, as I said to Soul, I think it is harsh to characterise his two hundreds in England vs Afridi, Abbas, Bumrah, Ishant as spin heavy attacks. They are all very good seam bowlers in English conditions.

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

Ha ...as I type , Foakes misses a stumping   We are none of us infallible...

Missed stumping you say?

Spoiler:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker

Yes, I'm slightly concerned that Silverwood and co will see past the rubbish he bowled and only focus on the cheap wickets he picked up. Anyway, it's likely to be only one spinner (Leach) for the pink-ball test - the test that will have the most favourable conditions for England.

Yeah the rubbish he bowls  to get wickets is better than the rubbish Bess bowls to get his wickets

Over my years of watching spinners
On my scale of 100 for of spinners if
Saqlainwas 90
Ashwin  is around 80,  Swann at 70, Lyon at 60, as a reference then Moeen would be around 35 to 40
And Bess 20

What gets Moeen all those points is that he is able to flight and get a loop and also has one that goes straight which is hard to pick when he gets his loop going.
That he doesn't get his loop going consistently is why he is at a score of 35 and not 60

Re:T3 only the ball will be pink but he underlying pitch still the dry abrasive and could be a similar dust bowl
So 2 spinners is a must.....I would get Woakes in for Lawrence

With all due respect , KP_fan , that points summary is arbitrary nonsense. And Moeen has indeed bowled very well at times in the past...the fairly distant past. Yesterday , he bowled a load of rubbish (if you want to be harsh ) or pretty mediocre (if feeling charitable) : he applied zero pressure on a pitch that should have suited
him down to the ground. I can't prove Bess would have done better ; but his recent record suggests he might have done...

Gill with what can only be termed a Shane Watson review

I suppose we'll start comparing that missed stumping that Foakes almost turned into a chance with Buttler fluffing fairly simple chances last year.

alfie wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker

Yes, I'm slightly concerned that Silverwood and co will see past the rubbish he bowled and only focus on the cheap wickets he picked up. Anyway, it's likely to be only one spinner (Leach) for the pink-ball test - the test that will have the most favourable conditions for England.

Yeah the rubbish he bowls  to get wickets is better than the rubbish Bess bowls to get his wickets

Over my years of watching spinners
On my scale of 100 for of spinners if
Saqlainwas 90
Ashwin  is around 80,  Swann at 70, Lyon at 60, as a reference then Moeen would be around 35 to 40
And Bess 20

What gets Moeen all those points is that he is able to flight and get a loop and also has one that goes straight which is hard to pick when he gets his loop going.
That he doesn't get his loop going consistently is why he is at a score of 35 and not 60

Re:T3 only the ball will be pink but he underlying pitch still the dry abrasive and could be a similar dust bowl
So 2 spinners is a must.....I would get Woakes in for Lawrence

With all due respect , KP_fan , that points summary is arbitrary nonsense. And Moeen has indeed bowled very well at times in the past...the fairly distant past. Yesterday , he bowled a load of rubbish (if you want to be harsh ) or pretty mediocre (if feeling charitable) : he applied zero pressure on a pitch that should have suited
him down to the ground.  I can't prove Bess would have done better ; but his recent record suggests he might have done...

That rating is Not a dictate from Moses and only my opinion so disagreeing wouldn't be a sin.
Eng management agreed with my assesment hence they dumped Bess......and Ali justified with bamboozling deliveries like the one he got kohli with and the one he beat Rohit , stumping muffed by Foakes

JDizzle wrote:

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

It is really too soon to say. Foakes has had a handful of innings so far...has had great early success against spin , not so much in a couple of games in West Indies.  We need to see more.

At the same time , Buttler doesn't have much of a record against good pace bowling. His good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition ; and against Australia and South Africa he's been pretty poor.  

Anyway , Foakes has a couple more games now. Let's see what happens.

Ha ...as I type , Foakes misses a stumping   We are none of us infallible...

Yeah, as I said to Soul, I think it is harsh to characterise his two hundreds in England vs Afridi, Abbas, Bumrah, Ishant as spin heavy attacks. They are all very good seam bowlers in English conditions.

Well I am not actually rating Buttler's hundreds as his best innings ...both were on pretty flat decks , one in a hopeless position and the other under little pressure. That's not to be critical ; just that I'd rate some of his other innings , less runs but more important , as the ones by which I'd judge him. And they've predominantly come against spin.
It's the failures in SA , NZ , and at home v Australia that raise a question mark. And it is only a question mark , I would point out. Just that if you are asking Foakes to prove himself against pace we ought to be fair about it...

They're classing that as a shot played. Woeful umpiring in this test match.

2 horrible reviews by Eng and India

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Maligned Ali yet again highest wkt taker

Yes, I'm slightly concerned that Silverwood and co will see past the rubbish he bowled and only focus on the cheap wickets he picked up. Anyway, it's likely to be only one spinner (Leach) for the pink-ball test - the test that will have the most favourable conditions for England.

Yeah the rubbish he bowls  to get wickets is better than the rubbish Bess bowls to get his wickets

Over my years of watching spinners
On my scale of 100 for of spinners if
Saqlainwas 90
Ashwin  is around 80,  Swann at 70, Lyon at 60, as a reference then Moeen would be around 35 to 40
And Bess 20

What gets Moeen all those points is that he is able to flight and get a loop and also has one that goes straight which is hard to pick when he gets his loop going.
That he doesn't get his loop going consistently is why he is at a score of 35 and not 60

Re:T3 only the ball will be pink but he underlying pitch still the dry abrasive and could be a similar dust bowl
So 2 spinners is a must.....I would get Woakes in for Lawrence

With all due respect , KP_fan , that points summary is arbitrary nonsense. And Moeen has indeed bowled very well at times in the past...the fairly distant past. Yesterday , he bowled a load of rubbish (if you want to be harsh ) or pretty mediocre (if feeling charitable) : he applied zero pressure on a pitch that should have suited
him down to the ground.  I can't prove Bess would have done better ; but his recent record suggests he might have done...

That rating is Not a dictate from Moses and only  my opinion so disagreeing wouldn't be a sin.
Eng management agreed with my assesment hence they dumped Bess......and Ali justified with bamboozling deliveries like the one he got kohli with and the one he beat Rohit , stumping muffed by Foakes

Bess has been rested - in the same way Anderson has been - not dropped. English selectors still rate Bess higher than Ali.

Duty281 wrote:

They're classing that as a shot played. Woeful umpiring in this test match.

Shot not played would be unambiguously the one that  Gill left to stone  first inning
With the bat tucked behind the pad...if the pad hd not come.innway, ball was gonna hit the bwt

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Can we also drop this nonsense notion that Buttler holds any advantages over Ben Foakes, their batting is of equal standard while the gulf with the gloves is huge.

When Foakes proves he can score runs against decent pace bowling, yes.

It is really too soon to say. Foakes has had a handful of innings so far...has had great early success against spin , not so much in a couple of games in West Indies.  We need to see more.

At the same time , Buttler doesn't have much of a record against good pace bowling. His good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition ; and against Australia and South Africa he's been pretty poor.  

Anyway , Foakes has a couple more games now. Let's see what happens.

Ha ...as I type , Foakes misses a stumping   We are none of us infallible...

Yeah, as I said to Soul, I think it is harsh to characterise his two hundreds in England vs Afridi, Abbas, Bumrah, Ishant as spin heavy attacks. They are all very good seam bowlers in English conditions.

Well I am not actually rating Buttler's hundreds as his best innings ...both were on pretty flat decks , one in a hopeless position and the other under little pressure. That's not to be critical ; just that  I'd rate some of his other innings , less runs but more important , as the ones by which I'd judge him. And they've predominantly come against spin.
It's the failures in SA , NZ , and at home v Australia that raise a question mark.  And it is only a question mark , I would point out.  Just that if you are asking Foakes to prove himself against pace we ought to be fair about it...

Think that is harsh on Buttler’s hundred vs Pakistan. They were 120-4 when he came in - hardly no pressure just because Crawley went on to make 250! And he had just made a match winning knock (his best knock?) two Tests ago in the fourth innings which I think qualifies as pressure!

It’s absolutely fair to say Butter has more to prove vs pace, and in general with the bat! But it all gets a bit disingenuous when we start writing innings out of history just because Crawley got runs at the other end.

That a nonsense call from the umpire. Never a shot offered there.

Absolutely careering into middle stump. Got job England are 250 behind on a minefield and it doesn’t matter!

Good thing this test hasn't been close because England have been mugged out of three legitimate wickets. The umpiring in this game has been disgraceful.

Sorry , JD : I am not intending to write an innings out of history ! Just attempting to clarify my original statement that "his good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition "

Without wishing to go nit-picking , I think that is a fair statement , no ?

The previous innings you mention is indeed one I'd rate as close to his best. And I think if recall he made it so principally by destroying Yasir Shah .
I don't think we really disagree that much. You are more of a Buttler fan , I think. I'm just trying to be fair to both sides of the argument ...blame Soul for starting it

Pitch has become even more slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show for the tipping competition

So . India 250/1 effectively...wonder how long they'll bat ?

Don't recommend UK viewers bother setting alarms tomorrow

The carnage with the ball will be delayed a while yet.

India have had two perfect days...well done them.

alfie wrote:So . India 250/1 effectively...wonder how long they'll bat ?

Don't recommend UK viewers bother setting alarms tomorrow

The carnage with the ball will be delayed a while yet.

India have had two perfect days...well done them.

Yep India have been superb - and really they should bat for as long as they can, get as many overs into the fingers of Leach in particular. There’s no time pressure!