England: 8 Nations

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Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Eddie looking at Calum Sheedy too?

Does he play centre for Wales?

Gooseberry wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Eddie looking at Calum Sheedy too?

Does he play centre for Wales?

No, that will be John Rhys Bleddyn Williams - I suppose we should thank you for him too.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jones has to look at both the Simmonds boys.

International rugby is about explosive rugby and whilst he might not have the size Sam is rocket fuel. Imagine him and Earl in a back row.

Joe Simmonds playing well. Is he better than Ford. Better than Marcus Smith.

Well hes the 10 thats guided his team to the European Cup final, so Jones must be looking at him.

Hill played...WAY better than Ewells.

The thing with Simmonds unlike a few of the other back row options doesn't have a glaring weakness in his game; he'll tackle all day, gets back to his feet very quickly, carry wells and is frankly ludicrously quick for a back row forward, to the extent he makes Tom Curry look sluggish (deliberate hyperbole but you get the point). He's not as good over the ball and doesn't dominate in contact to the same degree as either Curry or Underhill but he does link up well, he's also far far better at the base of the scrum. His relative lack of size can sometimes hide the fact he makes yards every time he carries.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Is Eddie looking at Calum Sheedy too?

Does he play centre for Wales?

No, that will be John Rhys Bleddyn Williams - I suppose we should thank you for him too.

I doubt Jones is but I wouldn't be surprised if he was on Farrell's shopping list.

Soul Requiem wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jones has to look at both the Simmonds boys.

International rugby is about explosive rugby and whilst he might not have the size Sam is rocket fuel. Imagine him and Earl in a back row.

Joe Simmonds playing well. Is he better than Ford. Better than Marcus Smith.

Well hes the 10 thats guided his team to the European Cup final, so Jones must be looking at him.

Hill played...WAY better than Ewells.

The thing with Simmonds unlike a few of the other back row options doesn't have a glaring weakness in his game; he'll tackle all day, gets back to his feet very quickly, carry wells and is frankly ludicrously quick for a back row forward, to the extent he makes Tom Curry look sluggish (deliberate hyperbole but you get the point). He's not as good over the ball and doesn't dominate in contact to the same degree as either Curry or Underhill but he does link up well, he's also far far better at the base of the scrum. His relative lack of size can sometimes hide the fact he makes yards every time he carries.

Yes, his workrate is very good, he fits Jones requirements for getting back to feet quickly, and he can be the link man strike runner. Hes is more a fit than Curry at 8 thats for sure.

To be fair...the back row options are incredible..

Simmonds is an excellent player but the main reason in my opinion that he's missing out is Earl leapfrogging him whilst Simmonds was injured. The two offer similar skill sets being very quick back rows that cover 6/7/8.

I rate both highly but Earl is more physical in defence and better over the ball. Simmonds is the better carrier but Earl is still very strong there. Earl is also outstanding on kick chase which is a big part of England's game.

An often understated part of the Curry and Underhill partnership is how good they are on kick chase. England will frequently line both up to chase box kicks with one looking for the big hit and the other targeting the breakdown. In the semi-final against NZ they were exceptional at this.

I like that the back row options emerging offer different tactical options. Curry and Underhill are outstanding in defence. Hill is a brute in contact. Earl is very good in the loose. Wilson is just an excellent all round flanker. Mercer offers a lineout option and link man from number 8. Whilst Billy if fit is excellent at creating front foot ball from nothing.

Similar to the tactical differences available by changing from the Ford/Farrell axis at 10/12 to having Faz at 10 with Manu at 12 and Slade offering a playmaker from 13.

You forgot Willis KC...

GeordieFalcon wrote:You forgot Willis KC...

For me he falls into the category of being just behind other players in all the positions he covers.

At flanker I'd still pick Curry and Underhill as my starters - personally I really don't mind which wears 6 or 7!

If we want a bigger carrier and physical presence at 6 then I see Hill as a stronger option than Willis.

If we want a quicker number 8 in the absence of Billy then Mercer, Earl and Simmonds would all be just ahead of Willis for me.

Then at openside you've got Underhill and Ludlam as specialist with Curry and Earl both opensides who cover other positions.

Then I'm also one of those boring fans who rates Wilson highly enough to think he should still be a part of Eddie's plans.

I rate Willis but I simply rate him behind other options given that back row is a strength at the moment. Similar to my view of Simmonds being a very good player but just behind Earl in the pecking order after his injuries.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You forgot Willis KC...

For me he falls into the category of being just behind other players in all the positions he covers.

At flanker I'd still pick Curry and Underhill as my starters - personally I really don't mind which wears 6 or 7!

If we want a bigger carrier and physical presence at 6 then I see Hill as a stronger option than Willis.

If we want a quicker number 8 in the absence of Billy then Mercer, Earl and Simmonds would all be just ahead of Willis for me.

Then at openside you've got Underhill and Ludlam as specialist with Curry and Earl both opensides who cover other positions.

Then I'm also one of those boring fans who rates Wilson highly enough to think he should still be a part of Eddie's plans.

I rate Willis but I simply rate him behind other options given that back row is a strength at the moment. Similar to my view of Simmonds being a very good player but just behind Earl in the pecking order after his injuries.

Agree with you 100% there KC

I too rate Willis but part of me worries about him playing for England. The kamikaze way he goes for everything will cause problems against international back rows, i'm thinking Wales in particular, it's not something that can't be adjusted in time but will Jones go for a player he needs to train to play his way when he's got a plethora of talent to choose from already?

Hill as i've often stated before is the guy I think will be at the forefront of Jones' thinking, his sheer physicality offers something that the more mobile batch don't.

Soul Requiem wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You forgot Willis KC...

For me he falls into the category of being just behind other players in all the positions he covers.

At flanker I'd still pick Curry and Underhill as my starters - personally I really don't mind which wears 6 or 7!

If we want a bigger carrier and physical presence at 6 then I see Hill as a stronger option than Willis.

If we want a quicker number 8 in the absence of Billy then Mercer, Earl and Simmonds would all be just ahead of Willis for me.

Then at openside you've got Underhill and Ludlam as specialist with Curry and Earl both opensides who cover other positions.

Then I'm also one of those boring fans who rates Wilson highly enough to think he should still be a part of Eddie's plans.

I rate Willis but I simply rate him behind other options given that back row is a strength at the moment. Similar to my view of Simmonds being a very good player but just behind Earl in the pecking order after his injuries.

Agree with you 100% there KC

I too rate Willis but part of me worries about him playing for England. The kamikaze way he goes for everything will cause problems against international back rows, i'm thinking Wales in particular, it's not something that can't be adjusted in time but will Jones go for a player he needs to train to play his way when he's got a plethora of talent to choose from already?

Hill as i've often stated before is the guy I think will be at the forefront of Jones' thinking, his sheer physicality offers something that the more mobile batch don't.

I might be overthinking things but it didn't seem a coincidence to me that Jones capped Mercer and Hill very young. They are a number 8 and blindside who offer something different to other options in either position but would complement each other well. Hill being very good in contact an Mercer being very talented as a link man in open play but also got the modern back rowers work rate and breakdown work.

Mercer is a guy who's proven my preconceptions completely wrong. When he first came into senior rugby I felt he was a bit like Falcons age grade star Alex Gray. Excellent at U20 level but just lacking power for the senior game. He's proved me wrong there though. He has plenty of power for the tight exchanges and is excellent in the loose. His lineout work is good too, which might allow us to move away from the 3 locks selection.

Having Kruis unavailable for a year may be a blessing in disguise for this England pack. It could give Launchbury the chance to show what he offers in the loose again and lead to Itoje running the lineout more.

It's not as if Willis gives a lot of pens away or shoes away from carrying or tackling either though. But for injury I think hed be established now.

The back row really is an embarrassment of riches now. There are several combinations we could put together who would play brilliantly and not let the side down. Tom Curry is probably Eddie's first back row on the sheet.

The capped and likely first choices are T Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola

The capped and likely to be capped again: Earl, Ted Hill, Mercer, Ludlam

The capped but unsure whether Eddie will retain them or cap them again: Wilson, Simmonds

The uncapped but should be capped in the next few months: B Curry, J Willis, Dombrandt

Add to that Lawes at 6 has not exactly embarrassed himself there recently.

There's a couple of others in the last few years where Eddie has added, used, and spat them out, such as Harrison and Armand, neither of which played particularly badly. We are not doing badly!

However trying to second guess Eddie's likely back row will probably end in red faces for us - who would have bet on Curry at 8?

I agree i think Ted Hills physicality cant be ignored.

Just watched Harlequins wasps. You all know what on going to say but he continues to be amazing.

Marcus Smith was superb tonight, Dombrandt great from the bench. A nod to Barbaery: he looks a fantastic prospect on what's only his 3rd game I think. Will be great to see what his basics are as hooker when he gets the go.

Any thoughts on Thacker...

Looking at the schedule and in particular Exeters fixture load I'm assuming there will be a large extended squad selected and a fair bit of rotation, certainly the Barbarians game I'd be surprised to see anyone who plays the Premiership final starting.

I guess the Italy fixture will see something like a first choice side because it is meaningful for the 6 nations, even if that all seems a bit fake now. Ideally that would've been the third fixture, giving an opportunity for a probables side to get a run out together.

Love Thacker. Would probably be my 3rd choice. Can't seen beyond LCD and George at present.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any thoughts on Thacker...

With Singleton's form dropping he'd be my third choice, in the training squads.

There will always be doubts about Thacker's size at set-piece in international rugby but the only way to find out is to pick him. Whether Jones thinks his loose work and lineout throwing (Thacker consistently throws to the tail as well as any) offsets the risk will presumably decide whether he gets a go.

George and Cowan-Dickie are excellent hookers so unlikely that someone will break past them imminently. Now LCD has sorted his lineout work he's really pushing George. His breakdown work is excellent and he's a very strong scrummager. If both don't tour with the Lions I'd be really shocked.

The front row is strong overall but we need depth at tighthead especially but also hooker. Personally I'd like to see Painter tried at tighthead and Thacker at hooker. Painter could also be a risk in my opinion as his height sometimes means he struggles in the scrum against top looseheads. Again we won't find out unless he's tried and the potential positives of a 20 stone ball carrier to replace Sinckler on 60 minutes offsets the chance of us struggling in the scrum for a couple of games if he isn't ready.

If 3 years out from the next world cup with a massively disrupted and congested schedule isn't the right time to risk losing friendlies for the sake of long term depth then I really don't know when is.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any thoughts on Thacker...

every time I see him play, it pains me that Tigers let him go. His style of play really suits Bristol but perhaps not England? Of course people will always look at his size but......

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any thoughts on Thacker...

every time I see him play, it pains me that Tigers let him go. His style of play really suits Bristol but perhaps not England? Of course people will always look at his size but......

Does very well for a shorter man, I would certainly consider him.

Both Lawes and Tuilagi injured tonight in the Sale - Northampton game. Lawes hurt his ankle after a high ball and Tuilagi has an achilles problem. If they don't heal in time it could mean some interesting selections.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12545/12080380/luther-burrell-targets-england-recall-after-returning-to-rugby-union

Cant you go back to wumming the Scottish?

Mr Bounce wrote:Both Lawes and Tuilagi injured tonight in the Sale - Northampton game. Lawes hurt his ankle after a high ball and Tuilagi has an achilles problem. If they don't heal in time it could mean some interesting selections.

Would like to see Lawrence come in Tuilagi. Probably expecting us to to stay with a 6 2 bench means very much an opening at lock. Launchbury still out injured as well. Ewell seems the next in despite his lack of fireworks has been solid. Hill? Isiekwe? Ribband?

I think Isiekwe is still out of favour and hasn't exactly been headlining for Saints. My money would be on Jonny Hill. I think he's been fantastic and should be given a chance.

We also have to factor in who will be in camp as the Premiership Final is on 24th and the Italy match is on the 31st. In theory it could be a repeat of the 2017 final with Wasps against Exeter but who knows! The Baa-Baas match selection will also be interesting. I would expect to see some very interesting names featuring.

I have been very impressed with young Manny Iyogun at Saints, 4 loosies injured and at 19 asked to step into the senior game in a position he has been playing for less than a year, first game Dan Cole, second whichever of the internationals Exeter through at him, last night Oosthuizen. He has not taken a backward step, won more penalties than he has conceded including 2 against Cole. Very far from the finished product, but next year or maybe a bit later he might be running out in a white shirt.

Based his game at 8 on Picamoles, so he shows good taste. A TH that can play in the loose like Picamoles, tasty.

I could be wrong, but I thought overall (did not see the game last night) Isiekwe was doing well. He’s started 15 out of 20 games this season (admittedly benched for the last two), but his stats don’t make for bad reading, even when compared to some of the more lauded players.

https://index.rugbypass.com/compare/player:27119:20984:20440

I am guessing his overall lineout score is poor compared to the other to obecause the amount of time he has spent on the flank. With Kruis and possibly Lawes out, I would not be unhappy to see him in the mix. However, I would bow to the greater knowledge of those who watch Saints more regularly.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have been very impressed with young Manny Iyogun at Saints, 4 loosies injured and at 19 asked to step into the senior game in a position he has been playing for less than a year, first game Dan Cole, second whichever of the internationals Exeter through at him, last night Oosthuizen. He has not taken a backward step, won more penalties than he has conceded including 2 against Cole. Very far from the finished product, but next year or maybe a bit later he might be running out in a white shirt.

Based his game at 8 on Picamoles, so he shows good taste. A TH that can play in the loose like Picamoles, tasty.

I seen him do Francis a good’un as well. The scrum is a bit of a lottery though, so not sure if it’s a good or bad sign. Maybe good if he already has the ref’s on his side. He would be very handy for the U20s.

Squad for the barbarians and italy will be released Monday apparently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Both Lawes and Tuilagi injured tonight in the Sale - Northampton game. Lawes hurt his ankle after a high ball and Tuilagi has an achilles problem. If they don't heal in time it could mean some interesting selections.

Would like to see Lawrence come in Tuilagi. Probably expecting us to to stay with a 6 2 bench means very much an opening at lock. Launchbury still out injured as well. Ewell seems the next in despite his lack of fireworks has been solid. Hill? Isiekwe? Ribband?

Launch is in the mix for our last game against Exeter on Sunday.

Manu out for 6 months with an achilles injury. We have a lot of good centres but none that offer the go forward of Manu. Might force a chance of tactics in the centres.

10.Ford 12.Farrell 13.Joseph

I guess that will be the go to at first.

Slade playing outside those two seems unlikely. Daly at outside centre? Slade at 12? Marchant?

Manu missing might open opportunties for Nowell or Cokanasiga for their carrying.

AS above I'd love to see Lawrence get a run at some point. In a better team I think he'll flourish. Given its Baa Baas then Italy quite a nice way to blood him as well. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ford Farrell Joseph/Slade though. Quality players.

Joe Marchant may be worth a look at 13 surely?

Mr Bounce wrote:Joe Marchant may be worth a look at 13 surely?

I think Marchant is a cracking player - but Eddie seems to like a bit of heft in his backline.

Sam James then...

Marchants been in the extended squad under Jones previously. Played in the Barbarians game last year.

A lot depends on whether they take a short or long term view to opportunities in some of these games. The summer tour wouldve been a development squad one, and having 3 relativelu soft games first up kind of replaces that.

So really it could be more of a focus on kids who have the potential to makes a first choice squad better rather than the current 4th 5th choices getting spots. Its certainly what we've seen from Jones in the past.

PSDT giving a nice insight in to how England bottled the RWC final:

"The moment in the final I realised 'look I think we have got them' was when they started running from behind their own tryline," Du Toit added.

"The other was when Vunipola ran into Damian de Allende and Handre Pollard and just threw the ball away."

Gooseberry wrote:Marchants been in the extended squad under Jones previously. Played in the Barbarians game last year.

A lot depends on whether they take a short or long term view to opportunities in some of these games. The summer tour wouldve been a development squad one, and having 3 relativelu soft games first up kind of replaces that.

So really it could be more of a focus on kids who have the potential to makes a first choice squad better rather than the current 4th 5th choices getting spots. Its certainly what we've seen from Jones in the past.

Marchant and Joseph seen the obvious alternatives to each other. Farrell and joseph worked well so no reason them 2 couldn't. If cokanasiga is on the wrong too you dont really lose any physicality.

So who do you genuinely think will get their first caps this autumn? And who will Jones leave out??

I think both Dombrandt and Willis will pick up theirs, and depending on coronavirus-affected players, Ben Curry might as well. I am going to stick my neck out and also say Alex Mitchell and Jonny Hill will also get theirs at some point. Otherwise I think it's going to be the core of the main 6 nations squad again.

That said, second guessing Jones is an art that none of us are much good at, so there may be some surprises.

My guess at the potential squad. This will be wrong, of course, but we all know that Eddie has his favourites - there's no way that Daly, Tom Curry, Farrell, George, Ford, Sinckler and Itoje are going anywhere. But there will be some casualties - I fully expect Heinz and Wilson to be jettisoned by Jones.

1. Genge, Vunipola, Marler
2. Cowan-Dickie, George, Dunn
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Williams
4. Itoje, Launchbury
5. Hill, Ewels, Moon
6. T Curry, Willis
7. Underhill, Earl, B Curry
8. Vunipola, Dombrandt
9. Youngs, Spencer, Mitchell
10. Farrell, Ford, Smith
11. May, Cokanasinga
12. S James, Slade
13. Joseph, Marchant
14. Thorley, Nowell
15. Daly, Watson

Ha! I really struggle with how Jones goes. I've had a stab on my squad but I reckon for Italy it will be (couple of queries on inuries):

Vunipola George sinckler
Itoje lawes
Curry underhill
Vunipola
Spencer Ford
May Farrell slade Watson
Daly

Genge LCD Williams launchbury ewells Willis youngs joseph

Is Lawes likely to be recovered in time? Hope so...

I only left him out of my squad due to injury.

No clue. If he doesnt the first team is stronger imo. Everyone moves up one and jonny hill probably gets his chance.

From the Twitter feed of the rfu:

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England Senior Men

JONES ANNOUNCES ENGLAND MEN TRAINING SQUAD

 Posted 20 Minutes Ago

England head coach Eddie Jones has named a 28-man squad to convene for a three-day training camp.England Senior Men

The squad will meet up at The Lensbury in south west London from Tuesday 6 October to Thursday 8 October. 

Rugby World Cup 2023 draw to take place on 14 DecemberListen to The Eddie Jones Coaching Podcast

Eddie Jones said: “Our preparation to build the team for the Italy game starts now. We have a three-day camp this week and another one next week then we’re into the week of our Quilter Cup match against the Barbarians. We’ll be slowly building up, working on the basics and working on team cohesion.

“We’re excited to be back together in camp representing England. This autumn we want to play for the fans and give them something to smile about.”

An updated squad will be confirmed ahead of England’s next training camp from Thursday 15 to Saturday 17 October.

England have six upcoming fixtures this autumn starting with the uncapped Quilter Cup against the Barbarians (25 October, KO 2pm GMT, live on Sky Sports).

Following a trip to Rome to face Italy (31 Oct, KO 4.45pm GMT, live on ITV) in the final round of the delayed 2020 Guinness Six Nations, England will play four matches as part of the Autumn Nations Cup.

Quilter Internationals at Twickenham Stadium against Georgia (14 November, KO 3pm) and Ireland (21 November, KO 3pm), an away match v Wales (28 November, KO 4pm) before returning to Twickenham for a placing match to determine final position in the competition (6 December, KO 2pm). All Autumn Nations Cup games will be live on Amazon Prime.

BACKS

Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Elliot Daly, Saracens
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Nathan Earle, Harlequins*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
Piers Francis, Northampton Saints
George Furbank, Northampton Saints
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

FORWARDS

Jack Clement, Gloucester Rugby*
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Simon Kerrod, Harlequins*
Lewis Ludlow, Gloucester Rugby*
Alex Moon, Northampton Saints*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Jack Singleton, Gloucester Rugby
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons
 
* Uncapped players


Should be noted that he couldn't pick from 6 teams due to league fixtures which the bbc havent been helpful enough to list so will be exeter wasps bath Bristol Worcester and sale. Tell strong set of players when you note that.

How would you describe that? Eclectic?

Some very leftfield players amongst that lot. Ali Crossdale? He has only played four premiership games this season, only one of which was in the last 6 months. I'd have though if you were going take a punt on a young/ raw winger outside of the top 6 somebody like Hassell-Collins at Irish would have been an obvious pick? Or maybe Olowofela at Leicester? Or even Nick David from Worcester? It seems an odd choice.

Cumbrian wrote:How would you describe that?  Eclectic?

Some very leftfield players amongst that lot.  Ali Crossdale? He has only played four premiership games this season, only one of which was in the last 6 months.  I'd have though if you were going take a punt on a young/ raw winger outside of the top 6 somebody like Hassell-Collins at Irish would have been an obvious pick?  Or maybe Olowofela at Leicester? Or even Nick David from Worcester?  It seems an odd choice.

A strong core and some dice rolls!

Trying to think through any strange choices and the only one sticking out is that moon and ribband are in there ahead of Isiekwe. Seen more as a blind side and not good enough? He has had his chance with england and was cast aside very quickly.

Cumbrian wrote:How would you describe that?  Eclectic?

Some very leftfield players amongst that lot.  Ali Crossdale? He has only played four premiership games this season, only one of which was in the last 6 months.  I'd have though if you were going take a punt on a young/ raw winger outside of the top 6 somebody like Hassell-Collins at Irish would have been an obvious pick?  Or maybe Olowofela at Leicester? Or even Nick David from Worcester?  It seems an odd choice.

Jordan is barely getting game time at Leicester currently. He really seems to have stalled in senior rugby, sadly.

Hassel-Collins would have been an exciting option.

Does anyone know if Ehren Painter is injured? I'd be surprised if Kerrod and Heyes were picked ahead of him. I really rate young Joe Heyes but he is early in his development. Against Bristol he struggled in the scrum against Yann Thomas and his frustration spilled over into giving away a really silly ruck penalty. He's a big bloke who has showed up experienced props in the scrum and can carry well though.

Actually Marcus Smith isnt there. Been playing excellently too. Might suggest Simmonds is being considered or Jones is relying on 2 fly halfs still.

Looking at that list, there are 14 forwards competing for what's likely to be 13 slots in the XXIII - all the front rows and locks are almost certain to be part of the squad, because there 2 of each front row and three locks, so the question is which of the back rowers misses out.

On the backs, it's 14 for 10 slots. If we assume that Youngs, Ford, Daly and May are guaranteed to play, with Farrell a possible miss for Italy (he will still be waiting out his ban for the first week of training, I think) but certain thereafter, there are 5 slots to play for, most likely scum half, outside centre, wing and 2 outside back replacements.

Heinz/Mitchell is a straight shootout
There's probably room for 2 of Crossdale, Earle, Thorley and Furbank
Which leaves Dingwall, Francis and Marchant competing for 2 slots as well, unless Marchant is also in the running for wing, or Daly reverts to wing or OC.

Farrell is available from today.